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snelmark
31-08-2009, 11:29 AM
Hi all, new to the forum, joined as I saw this Heat Pumps section & sounds like there are lots of you who know what you're talking about! (I don't.)

We had a knock on the door the other day & were asked if we would like a "survey" to assess our property for new heating/hot water generation methods. I agreed to this (slightly suspiciously!) & the bloke from "Solar Services" came round last Friday.

Our property is a 3 bed thatched cottage with double glazing & very thick walls... a decent amount of insulation in the loft I suppose, too. We run on oil for heating & hot water & have propane cylinders for the cooker & one gas fire. (No mains gas here.)

He started off by saying that as ours is a listed property there was no point in even thinking about solar panels... is that right, I wondered??

Apparently Scandinavia have been on heat pumps for years (is that right?). Later he mentioned that the technology to have these things in the UK is fairly new due to our lowish temps. (So how have they been doing it in Scandinavia for so long, I later wondered?) Oil heating/hot water systems won't even be allowed to be fitted in 6 years or so so the heat pump is the next big thing for properties not on mains gas....

Long story short: on current prices only (he wasn't disingenuous about that aspect) my yearly c. £1100 spend on oil could be reduced to only c. £330 on electricity to run my shiny new 16kW Daikin Altherma. (= 70% saving) The 200 litre hot water cylinder would fit neatly where the current oil-fired bolier sits in the kitchen & the "indoor unit" would fit just above that. We would have a much better hot water source than our current combi, which was here when we moved in & doesn't allow for anything but short showers!

There was much talk, all of it very convincing I must say (& I'm not bad with numbers!) re. payback times etc. His headline quote was £17375 incl. 5% (reduced) VAT, which was reduced to a final figure of £13975 after a £900 UK government grant & a £2500 reduction if I agree to be a "case study" for Solar Services.

So, my questions:

Is the technology up to it? I confess it's the first I've really heard of heat pumps. I am very interested, if they will do what I need.

Having been online & on the phone, it seems the entire system he wants to sell me is available for under £7000 from Orionair.co.uk... that surely means that with nearly £7000 to install it, this is a total rip off?

What could I get this system fitted into my home for in £ & does anyone have recommendations for me for who is up to the job? (I live in Somerset.)

Having done a little online research: how bad is the noise from one of these things, what is the defrost cycle like, & is Daikin among the best available?

Thanks for any time you are able to give this heat pump newbie/novice, I realise mine is a bit of a basic/boring thread!

Snelmark.

Debonair Spain
31-08-2009, 06:27 PM
Hi Snelmark i have fitted a few over here in Spain and we will be branching out to the UK very soon.
The system is fantastic and will save you a lot of money in the long run but there are a few issues to first look at.

Daikin are among the very best manufacturers of heat pumps so if you were to go ahead with an installation, make sure that the installer is Daikin certified and that he carries out a heatloss calc to your property.

This will give you the heat pump size required.

There are two types of Altherma a low temp and a high temp system.

The low temp runs at a max of 55 degrees, the high temp at 80.

With the low temp system you will need low temperature radiators for example ( Jaga ), these convect the warm air. The high temp system can be a straight swap of the old system and leave the existing rads with a little alteration to the pipework.

The low temp system will struggle to reach a decent temp if you were to leave the existing rads in.

greenman
01-09-2009, 07:49 PM
My advice to you is to get quotes from elsewhere if you are interested in pursuing this.

We used Solar Services and they were a complete nightmare to deal with. They are slow to respond to communications and several times have left us with no heating whilst we waited for them to sort out problems with our system.

They have some good engineers who work for them but the management and 'customer service' you have to go through to get to them are awful.

We got pulled in by the convincing Solar Services salesman too, but I would warn you to go elsewhere if you want to pursue this approach.

As for the system, its great when it works, but dont do it for financial reasons...the payback at today's energy prices is in the 15-20 years range.

jdunc2301
03-09-2009, 09:09 PM
Hi, i dont know anything about prices etc, all i will say is if you are serious then have a good look around, Daikin altherma seems to be leading the way, i've worked on plenty of calorex units serving new housing association builds, they seem to be reliable. With any heat pump and costing i would build in a yearly cost to cover 2 service visits to keep the thing running properly, calorex have units they claim will work to -15C, and produce water at over 60c.

Debonair Spain
03-09-2009, 09:32 PM
I would be very surprised if any company can install a 16KW Daikin Altherma system for less then 7000 pounds along with materials, low temp rads, labour costs and offer a good back up service.

snelmark
15-09-2009, 09:53 AM
Hi Snelmark i have fitted a few over here in Spain and we will be branching out to the UK very soon.
The system is fantastic and will save you a lot of money in the long run but there are a few issues to first look at.

Daikin are among the very best manufacturers of heat pumps so if you were to go ahead with an installation, make sure that the installer is Daikin certified and that he carries out a heatloss calc to your property.

This will give you the heat pump size required.

There are two types of Altherma a low temp and a high temp system.

The low temp runs at a max of 55 degrees, the high temp at 80.

With the low temp system you will need low temperature radiators for example ( Jaga ), these convect the warm air. The high temp system can be a straight swap of the old system and leave the existing rads with a little alteration to the pipework.

The low temp system will struggle to reach a decent temp if you were to leave the existing rads in.

Thanks for that Debonair, really helpful. The salesman was talking about the 55C system which heats itself (with an element?) up to 80C now & again to kill bugs etc. He didn't mention replacing rads at all....

Is the 80C unit still 16kW?

£7000ish seemed a hell of a lot considering he didn't propose to replace my rads, wouldn't you say?

Cheers.

snelmark
15-09-2009, 10:08 AM
My advice to you is to get quotes from elsewhere if you are interested in pursuing this.

We used Solar Services and they were a complete nightmare to deal with. They are slow to respond to communications and several times have left us with no heating whilst we waited for them to sort out problems with our system.

They have some good engineers who work for them but the management and 'customer service' you have to go through to get to them are awful.

We got pulled in by the convincing Solar Services salesman too, but I would warn you to go elsewhere if you want to pursue this approach.

As for the system, its great when it works, but dont do it for financial reasons...the payback at today's energy prices is in the 15-20 years range.

Thanks for the reply greenman.

Good advice: you can't say fairer than that; I can't abide poor comms from any company! Interestingly, he hasn't been in touch to see if I want to buy...!

Point taken re. the payback time. Haven't got the salesman's figures in front of me but will dig them out to compare. I wouldn't mind no longer being at the mercy of OPEC though (Realising of course, that electricity prices aren't unrelated to general commodity prices!) Can't see oil prices getting cheaper anytime before it runs out though....

Does his calculation of yearly oil cost @ £1100 becoming electricity @ £330 sound anywhere close though?

He told me the system never needs servicing: was that therefore a lie, going on what you say?

A few more questions if I may: is yours the 55C or 80C unit; & did you have your rads replaced?
What did they charge you?
Is noise from the unit an issue? How about having to defrost it?

Thanks a lot.

snelmark
15-09-2009, 10:09 AM
Hi, i dont know anything about prices etc, all i will say is if you are serious then have a good look around, Daikin altherma seems to be leading the way, i've worked on plenty of calorex units serving new housing association builds, they seem to be reliable. With any heat pump and costing i would build in a yearly cost to cover 2 service visits to keep the thing running properly, calorex have units they claim will work to -15C, and produce water at over 60c.

Thanks for the reply jdunc2301.
This salesman said it would never need servicing: sounds like a lie then?
Do you see this as the next big thing for home heating/water? That's how the guy sold it to me....

taz24
15-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Thanks for the reply jdunc2301.
This salesman said it would never need servicing: sounds like a lie then?
Do you see this as the next big thing for home heating/water? That's how the guy sold it to me....


Heat pumps will be the future.
The technology is sound and yes other countries have been using them for decades.

The system your guy wants to sell you is as good as they get but no system would be expected to run for years without a service or maintenance.

Did he say it was going to be ground sourced or air sourced?
Single phase or three phase.

On the money side of it a heat pump on average is 3 times more efficiant than gas or oil but gas is 3 times cheeper than electricity ( I do not know the cost of oil). Soon gas will not be as cheep as it is so the heat pump will become more efficient in comparison to gas and oil.

Payback will be over a good 10 or 12 years though if there are no complications from the moment you switch it on.

taz.

.

greenman
25-11-2009, 12:18 AM
Thanks for the reply greenman.

Good advice: you can't say fairer than that; I can't abide poor comms from any company! Interestingly, he hasn't been in touch to see if I want to buy...!

Point taken re. the payback time. Haven't got the salesman's figures in front of me but will dig them out to compare. I wouldn't mind no longer being at the mercy of OPEC though (Realising of course, that electricity prices aren't unrelated to general commodity prices!) Can't see oil prices getting cheaper anytime before it runs out though....

Does his calculation of yearly oil cost @ £1100 becoming electricity @ £330 sound anywhere close though?

He told me the system never needs servicing: was that therefore a lie, going on what you say?

A few more questions if I may: is yours the 55C or 80C unit; & did you have your rads replaced?
What did they charge you?
Is noise from the unit an issue? How about having to defrost it?

Thanks a lot.

Sorry not to have got back sooner....I hope this is still useful.

Difficult to comment on the oil/electricity price comparison. Put it this way, for our 4 bedroom, 1800 sq ft house with underfloor heating upstairs and down we were paying about 90 UK pounds a month for electricity with the new system. We never had oil there so I cant say how much it would have costed with oil. I would doubt it would be 3 times as much though. You also need to bare in mind that our numbers include the rest of the usage for lighting and cooking (electric oven) and fridges/freezers/tvs/computers etc.

They also told me that the system would not need servicing, but we have already had some maintenance needed with a failing softstart.

Our system is a 55C one, which we paired with underfloor heating, so no rads....we do have some towel rails in the bathrooms that run off it and they dont get quite as hot as you might be used to but they work perfectly well. You are also supposed to boost the heat up to 60C once a week with the immersion, to ensure no water born nasties can develop.

The unit can drone a bit, especially when running a defrost cycle, but it is mounted on a mat which reduces vibration. I was a bit concerning at first, but we got used to it.....not sure our neighbours are quite so happy but the noise is not that much greater than what is given out by externally located oil boilers.

The final price we paid was over 11k, once the two large water tanks were included and the fitting.....that is something to bare in mind too - the system needs a fair bit of floor space. If you have a basement you are golden, but in a standard utility space this could be an issue.