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jdunc2301
06-08-2009, 07:28 PM
Hey everyone,

Went to a large site today, at the site there are several refrig/ac companies with smaller contracts on different pieces of kit.
Whilst i was waiting for the maintenance guys i spotted another tech from a firm around my area, we got chatting. He explained he was just a maintenance bloke for the company, carrying out the service.
I had a look at the kit and noticed something strange, oh and he was brushing off the condensers while i was chatting to him.

Anyway he had his steps out a brush, bottle of R22 and a hose attached to the bottle, no manifold just the hose.

Im just putting two and two together but it seems obvious that he was using the R22 to blow through the condensers.
R22 is working out quite cheap....
Really does annoy me considering i reclaimed 120g from a chiller this morning, the reckless twit may have vented 20x that amount.

Ggggrrrrr

Should really report it but theres no solid evidence im just going by what i saw!

Brian_UK
06-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Report it to the site staff if nothing else.

Get him and his firm kicked off.

Gary
07-08-2009, 12:36 AM
Report it to the site staff if nothing else.

Get him and his firm kicked off.

Why would anyone want to be an informer for the environmental nazis?... It just encourages the jack-booted thugs.

Magoo
07-08-2009, 12:54 AM
I tend to agree with Gary, but would explain to the individual what he is doing to the enviroment, and suggest compressed air is cheaper as well. If they ignor reasonable advise then cut the ground from under them.
Mainly because we have the big ozone hole down here in NZ., and get fried in summer and all the skin cancer stuff added for free.

lowcool
07-08-2009, 01:54 AM
i have used old bottles for compressed air for the same thing.
if your positive it was 22 make your own decision,then have a chat to the client about producing documentation that proves any contractor or representative is licensed to work on such equipment or with prescribed substances.hopefully they will catch on quickly given that it may not comply with their ohs&w policy that should be in place.
sounds like a job for multisync,just being humerous multi

Magoo
07-08-2009, 02:06 AM
Hi Lowcool,
I have also used old jugs for same purpose, friggen hopeless, so bought a luggable air compressor for the job.

tbirdtbird
07-08-2009, 02:30 AM
Seems odd he would use R22 like this right in front of you. Could have had compressed air in it; maybe not a totally brilliant way to do it since it arouses suspicion. Ever notice the environmental police don't like to tell you that the biggest ozone holes/paths coincide with the major jet routes and that the biggest hole of all is punched in by the space shuttle. For that matter aviation fuel (dunno about jet fuel) still has lead in it??? How bad can all this stuff really be? The $4500 'clunker trade-in ' program here in the states totally discounts the enormous amount of energy required just to mint an entire brand new car. No one is looking at the *entire* energy balance sheet. No one.

lowcool
07-08-2009, 02:47 AM
gday magoo
friggen useless i agree,as you say we can have one man portable jobs now.used to do the rounds with a fridgy/electrician in my young days around the yorkes peninsula and mid north.i used to have the honour of pressurising those 5 foot lpg cylinders to 120 psi (or whatever we could get out the old girl)for condenser cleans.

Magoo
07-08-2009, 03:10 AM
Lowcool.
You worked up at Cape York., crokadily things etc.., snappy bytie things. Not for me. I like having a BBQ without people being snapped by the local wildlife. Jeeez who would live up there.

lowcool
07-08-2009, 03:25 AM
sorry magoo
thats yorkes peninsula in south australia,the thing with a foot at the bottom if you have a map.havent done cape york yet.but there is plenty of big bitey things spread over the north end of oz,inland also.

love it up north now i feel sort of homesick but i am from sth oz

multisync
07-08-2009, 08:00 AM
i have used old bottles for compressed air for the same thing.
if your positive it was 22 make your own decision,then have a chat to the client about producing documentation that proves any contractor or representative is licensed to work on such equipment or with prescribed substances.hopefully they will catch on quickly given that it may not comply with their ohs&w policy that should be in place.
sounds like a job for multisync,just being humerous multi


Let me get this straight you put compressed air on an old R22 bottle..oh...my...god.
I look forward to seeing you on the Darwin awards website some day soon.

It's clear that most are coming round to the fact that if we don't help our industry and the enviroment by self policing no one will. Sadly there is no excuse for illegally venting. Like speeding a lot do but if you get caught it's no use moaning 'poor me' about it.

If he had a bottle of R22 he should -by law- be in possession of a safe handling certficate. . If he hasn't then he is working illegally but if he has he is still working illegally by venting.

It's interesting that most of those coming here with horror stories are the young and most defending the bad practice are the old.
Hopefully the old fools here will one day learn that they aren't always right and perhaps they should ease back with their bodger 'git'r'done' approach and promote good practice.

Next time you are on site get a picture of him blowing out the condensers. Then send it to the local EHO authority or F-Gas support with the details.

Don't forget his poor work ways will reflect on the customer. The client may not know his contractors are operating in an illegal manner. Most facilities managers will be grateful if you highlight this because he will get in deep doo doo if their company is dragged into a court case with all the bad publicity it could generate.

brian_chapin
07-08-2009, 11:03 AM
Off topic a bit, but...


...the biggest hole of all is punched in by the space shuttle.

Quoted from NASA:
Q. Is it true that launching the Space Shuttle creates a local ozone hole, and that the Space Shuttle releases more chlorine than all industrial uses worldwide?
A. No, that is not true. NASA has studied the effects of exhaust from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket motors on the ozone. In a 1990 report to Congress, NASA found that the chlorine released annually in the stratosphere (assuming launches of nine Shuttle missions and six Titan IVs -- which also have solid rocket motors -- per year) would be about 0.25 percent of the total amount of halocarbons released annually worldwide (0.725 kilotons by the Shuttle 300 kilotons from all sources).

The report concludes that Space Shuttle launches at the current rate pose no significant threat to the ozone layer and will have no lasting effect on the atmosphere. The exhaust plume from the Shuttle represents a trivial fraction of the atmosphere, and even if ozone destruction occurred within the initial plume, its global impact would be inconsequential.

Further, the corridor of exhaust gases spreads over a lateral extent of greater than 600 miles in a day, so no local "ozone hole" could occur above the launch site. Images taken by NASA's Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer at various points following Shuttle launches show no measurable ozone decrease.


For that matter aviation fuel (dunno about jet fuel) still has lead in it???

Very little AVGas is burned compared to JP-5 (Jet fuel). While some AVGas (but not most by a long shot) still has lead in it, most of it does not. JP-5 is essentially Kerosene and there isn't a need for an anti-pinging compound in a turbine so no lead additive.

Brian_UK
07-08-2009, 11:13 PM
Why would anyone want to be an informer for the environmental nazis?... It just encourages the jack-booted thugs.That was the reason I suggested the site staff. They will not want unsafe practices being performed on their property and the threat of loss of earnings will often do more than the threat of legal action.

You seem to have an aversion to playing safe Gary or is it just not wanting to be caught out yourself?

I'm not one for bleating to the environmental nazis as I couldn't stand the paperwork but there are always other means available.

Gary
08-08-2009, 12:15 AM
The only thing that's unsafe about venting R22 is getting caught.

If the guy wants to take his chances on getting caught, that's his choice. If he get's caught, he lost the gamble... too bad.

Would I turn him in to anyone? Hell no. I hate thieves and dictators and refuse to become their accomplice.

Magoo
08-08-2009, 04:57 AM
Hi Lowcool.
I /we have been to most parts of OZ., me not to your neck of the woods. I am keen to catch up some time so long as you can assure that no snappy things are around your BBQ.
We are a bit spoilt here with nothing that whats to eat anyone, let alone snakes, spiders, ants with attitude or get tramped by big reds.
This will confuse the hell out of posters with what I am talking about.
magoo

jdunc2301
08-08-2009, 10:43 AM
It's interesting that most of those coming here with horror stories are the young and most defending the bad practice are the old.
Hopefully the old fools here will one day learn that they aren't always right and perhaps they should ease back with their bodger 'git'r'done' approach and promote good practice.

The bloke i work for is very stuck in his ways. I think most guys like me who are fairly new to the industry (0-10yrs) have never known the industry with no rules and regs, plus i just like being as professional as possible.
:D



Would I turn him in to anyone? Hell no. I hate thieves and dictators and refuse to become their accomplice.

I think the the argument comes down to a couple of things.....

If your happy to go out and buy all the reclaim equipment, good quality kit and hundreds of pounds worth of qualifications to work in the industry legally, and then follow bad practices and not help to enforce the law....no point in doing the qualifications and buying the kit. Is there??

Aslong as people get away with not reclaiming and venting and bad practices the industry will always be full of holes, meaning the majority of engineers who take their role seriously and invest in their career and take pride in their job will loose out big time by always being undercut on price.

Dont get me wrong i think reclaiming less than 300g of refrigerant is the biggest pain in the arse, but we all gotta do it:D

Gary
08-08-2009, 02:07 PM
Aslong as people get away with not reclaiming and venting and bad practices the industry will always be full of holes, meaning the majority of engineers who take their role seriously and invest in their career and take pride in their job will loose out big time by always being undercut on price.


Being robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures puts you at a disadvantage, so your solution is that everyone should be robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures?... and you recommend helping the thieves/dictators?

Gary
08-08-2009, 03:15 PM
Old people know more about being young than young people know about being old. Been there done that.

The problem with the young is that they haven't been around long enough to recognize a scam when they see it.

The beauty in the fixing-a-future-problem scam is that by the time the evidence is in, the thieves are long gone... and a new set of thieves appear with a new set of future problems to be fixed, and a new group of young fools to fall for the scam.

The scam artists would like you to believe that old people are stuck in their ways and are afraid of change. Well... think about just how ludicrous and meaningless that statement is. Winning the lottery is change. A sharp stick in the eye is change. I don't know of anyone, young or old, who is afraid of winning the lottery. Only a young moron welcomes a sharp stick in the eye.

And then there is the "conspiracy nut" ploy. Those who play along with the scam stand to profit from it and those who oppose it are ridiculed as "conspiracy nuts", so a great many people play along with the scam and thus become accomplices. Is that a conspiracy? You tell me.

multisync
08-08-2009, 05:02 PM
Old people know more about being young than young people know about being old. Been there done that.

The problem with the young is that they haven't been around long enough to recognize a scam when they see it.

The beauty in the fixing-a-future-problem scam is that by the time the evidence is in, the thieves are long gone... and a new set of thieves appear with a new set of future problems to be fixed, and a new group of young fools to fall for the scam.

The scam artists would like you to believe that old people are stuck in their ways and are afraid of change. Well... think about just how ludicrous and meaningless that statement is. Winning the lottery is change. A sharp stick in the eye is change. I don't know of anyone, young or old, who is afraid of winning the lottery. Only a young moron welcomes a sharp stick in the eye.


How patronising can you get ?

Still, there's no fool like an old fool and you are living proof of that ...

Gary
08-08-2009, 05:14 PM
How patronising can you get ?

Still, there's no fool like an old fool and you are living proof of that ...

... says the young moron.

multisync
08-08-2009, 06:00 PM
Being robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures puts you at a disadvantage, so your solution is that everyone should be robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures?... and you recommend helping the thieves/dictators?




Getting properly trained and licensed is far better than buying some dodgy book of the internet and thinking you are a fridge man. (it is also the law in the UK- so get over it...)

Basically you condone those who break the law, champion 'bodgers' against skilled engineers, encourage venting of refrigerant and think the whole world is a conspiracy with all this talk of Nazi's and dictators paranoid old hippie nonsense....

Like it or not the law in the UK states you must be registered to work and venting refrigerant is illegal. Don't come over here and tell us we are wrong. Look to your country and see the waste of natural resources with a wanton disregard towards the earth and it's future. (let alone the children of the world)



We had many many chances to self regulate but chose to ignore it because of old dinosaurs with their "You can't tell me nothing" approach

So -like seat belts etc - if the people won't voluntarily change then they will be forced by law. That's how it works, that's how it's always worked. The recent measures were taken because we wouldn't clean up our own act then we must accept the consequences of our reluctance.
(The beauty of the seat belt law was it was self regulating. IE those who refused ended up going through the windscreen thereby taking their stupidity with them.)

You may not agree with global warming, -so what nor do I- but I respect that we must accept the world is different and we must behave responsibly.

There are those here who say these laws don't protect lives, read about the ozone layer and skin cancer...

Gary
08-08-2009, 06:04 PM
Most con games are based on the inherent dishonesty of the "mark". The mark turns over his money to the con artist in the belief that he has become an accomplice in the fleecing of a third party.

If/when the third party refuses to be fleeced, it is the mark who has been robbed.

The mark then blames the third party for their refusal to roll over and take it.

multisync
08-08-2009, 06:17 PM
Most con games are based on the inherent dishonesty of the "mark". The mark turns over his money to the con artist in the belief that he has become an accomplice in the fleecing of a third party.

If/when the third party refuses to be fleeced, it is the mark who has been robbed.

The mark then blames the third party for their refusal to roll over and take it.

You're rambling again..but humour me

Do you believe ozone depletion is caused or aided by refrigerants ?

Gary
08-08-2009, 06:23 PM
if the people won't voluntarily change then they will be forced by law. That's how it works, that's how it's always worked.

Spoken like a true dictator. Do what you're told or be beaten into submission.

Gary
08-08-2009, 06:26 PM
You're rambling again..but humour me

Do you believe ozone depletion is caused or aided by refrigerants ?

I don't know. Do you?

Show me the proof. Surely the CFC's have reached the ozone layer by now. There should be positive proof... or are people still pointing at the hole in the ozone... which may or may not have been there all along... or maybe enriching the politicians and their friends has prevented it from happening?

Gary
08-08-2009, 06:32 PM
A few centuries back, Columbus (using the state of the art science of the day) told a group of natives that his God was angry and would turn day into night. Sure enough, there was a solar eclipse, the natives were converted and Columbus became king. Isn't science wonderful?

Did the natives cause the eclipse?

Could worshiping/obeying Columbus and/or his God have prevented it?

Seems doubtful.

Gary
08-08-2009, 07:36 PM
Getting properly trained and licensed is far better than buying some dodgy book of the internet and thinking you are a fridge man. (it is also the law in the UK- so get over it...)

Basically you condone those who break the law, champion 'bodgers' against skilled engineers, encourage venting of refrigerant and think the whole world is a conspiracy with all this talk of Nazi's and dictators paranoid old hippie nonsense....


Am I opposed to training? Obviously not.
Am I opposed to skilled engineers? Obviously not.

Why pretend that I have said something that I have not? Ran out of rational arguments and resorting to irrational ones?

Do I recommend breaking outrageous laws? No... this would be dangerous because the informers will rat you out and the dictators will punish you. It's safer to obey the laws, but that doesn't mean you have to believe the b*llsh*t.

Do I obey the people with all the guns? Yes, when I must... but I don't buy into their rationalizations. They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t.

Has old hippie nonsense been replaced by new age nonsense? You really should do your homework. The paranoid old hippie nonsense is what started the paranoid (the sky is falling/end of the world) environmental movement nonsense. These are your roots, not mine.

philfridge
08-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Anyway he had his steps out a brush, bottle of R22 and a hose attached to the bottle, no manifold just the hose.

Im just putting two and two together but it seems obvious that he was using the R22 to blow through the condensers.

Ggggrrrrr

Should really report it but theres no solid evidence im just going by what i saw!

This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

Gary
08-08-2009, 08:36 PM
This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

That's almost beside the point. Even if it can be proven that the Earth is getting warmer that doesn't mean anything can be done about it or that enriching the politicians and their buddies is going to accomplish anything... aside from enriching the politicians and their buddies.

tbirdtbird
09-08-2009, 01:49 AM
Well we sure have come a long way when we do not know for certain that any R22 was actually vented.
And a government report was cited as proof that the shuttle does not punch holes in the ozone. Wow, there are people out there that would believe everything their government tells them. Like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. As Gary eloquently said, "They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t."
The earth has gone through numerous hot-cold cycles throughout the ages. Period. We really cannot control that, and it will occur no matter what we do. Geology is the science that tells us this, not the government. I think the mods should close this thread.

multisync
09-08-2009, 07:41 AM
This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.


Which 'dictator' are you thinking of Phil can you name him/them?

multisync
09-08-2009, 07:50 AM
Spoken like a true dictator. Do what you're told or be beaten into submission.


Civilisation only became about due to laws. Sadly human beings will revert to type as soon as they feel they can get away with it. Look at the LA riots for an easy example.

People elect people to govern them. That's democracy. These 'elected' people have decided that refrigerants and those working with them need to be regulated. That isn't a dictatorship that's democracy in action.
It is not possible that everyone agrees with every law. But democracy by it's nature means the greater good. If you don't like it then what do you like?

multisync
09-08-2009, 08:04 AM
Am I opposed to training? Obviously not


Am I opposed to skilled engineers? Obviously not.

Why pretend that I have said something that I have not? Ran out of rational arguments and resorting to irrational ones?.

Do you want me to dig out your infamous "Bodgers are getting it done" quote?


Do I recommend breaking outrageous laws? No... this would be dangerous because the informers will rat you out and the dictators will punish you. It's safer to obey the laws, but that doesn't mean you have to believe the b*llsh*t.

I don't suggest you must believe in them either, just that it is now law in the UK not to vent refrigerant and that you must be certified to work with them. I agree with this legislation but would like it to go much further towards the Norwegian model.


Do I obey the people with all the guns? Yes, when I must... but I don't buy into their rationalizations. They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t.

Oh give over with this I'm not a number BS. You may well believe you can rage against the machine but you are kidding yourself. Come the time you'll go meekly along with it. Like a parking ticket or a speeding fine you'll rant and rave then quietly pay up.


Has old hippie nonsense been replaced by new age nonsense? You really should do your homework. The paranoid old hippie nonsense is what started the paranoid (the sky is falling/end of the world) environmental movement nonsense. These are your roots, not mine

Where have I once said I actually believe the environmental nonsense? I don't but I agree with these laws only wish it went much further and was enforced far stricter than it ever will be..

multisync
09-08-2009, 08:28 AM
Well we sure have come a long way when we do not know for certain that any R22 was actually vented.

A bottle of R22 with a single hose on it, some clean condensers and some dirty condensers. Not proof as the OP suggests but beyond reasonable doubt??



And a government report was cited as proof that the shuttle does not punch holes in the ozone. Wow, there are people out there that would believe everything their government tells them. Like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

We all pick and choose what we believe and don't believe. I presume you choose not to believe that the Shuttle doesn't harm the ozone layer. Is that because you have hard evidence, or that you don't believe this government on anything?


As Gary eloquently said, "They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t."

Next you'll be telling me that advertising doesn't work. Well if you believe that I have a bridge to sell...


The earth has gone through numerous hot-cold cycles throughout the ages. Period. We really cannot control that, and it will occur no matter what we do. Geology is the science that tells us this, not the government.

Again we all choose to believe what we choose to believe. (or are guided to believe?) However this thread isn't about GW, it's about illegal venting of refrigerant.



I think the mods should close this thread.

I don't. Just lets keep it on the original topic of illegal venting

multisync
09-08-2009, 08:46 AM
This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

No one 'worried' about drink driving or going head first through the windscreen. Laws changed and were enforced more vigorously. Now we all -usually- buckle up and few if any condone drink driving. The world changes and we must change with it.

Our trade is a ragtag bunch of the poorly trained and/or badly managed. Supermarkets piss all over their contractors bankrupting them almost on a whim. Why, because we drifted along completely unregulated a few blokes here and there 'getting by'

This law -if we choose- will allow us to gain some kudos we can become recognised as a skilled trade not just an add on as seen on the side of a van:

"security, cameras, alarms- oh and air conditioning"
"Electrical installations, domestic, commercial- oh and air conditioning"
"heating, plumbing, gaswork- oh and air conditioning"

multisync
09-08-2009, 08:55 AM
I don't know. Do you?

Show me the proof. Surely the CFC's have reached the ozone layer by now. There should be positive proof... or are people still pointing at the hole in the ozone... which may or may not have been there all along... or maybe enriching the politicians and their friends has prevented it from happening?

You don't know but by your reasoning we should carry on venting any way?

Gary
09-08-2009, 04:16 PM
You don't know but by your reasoning we should carry on venting any way?

You don't know but by your reasoning we should give the politicians our money and inform on and severely punish people who vent refrigerants? The harm is theoretical and by any sane measure miniscule. The punishment is real and severe.

philfridge
09-08-2009, 04:26 PM
Which 'dictator' are you thinking of Phil can you name him/them?

Yes his name is Multisync :p

philfridge
09-08-2009, 04:33 PM
Even if it can be proven that the Earth is getting warmer that doesn't mean anything can be done about it

It cant over the last 18 years its got colder

Gary
09-08-2009, 05:28 PM
Not so long ago, people were tortured and burnt at the stake based on the theory that this would save their immortal souls. That's right, it was for their own good.

The politicians are the same. The informants are the same. The punishments are less severe... so far. The only thing that has changed is the religion. The new religion is environmentalism.

What gives you the right to force your beliefs on others? What gives you the right to punish others based on your unproven theories? Just who the hell do you think you are?

thebigcheese
09-08-2009, 07:40 PM
is it just me or does anyone else do it by the book just because they cant get away with doing it wrong. the only reason id tout so to speak on someone venting r22 is because i have to reclaim it.

multisync
09-08-2009, 07:41 PM
Yes his name is Multisync :p


Phil, I love you like like a brother but It's too easy to throw in silly comments like 'dictator' which is always emotive but in this instance utterly meaningless.

multisync
09-08-2009, 07:43 PM
You don't know but by your reasoning we should give the politicians our money and inform on and severely punish people who vent refrigerants? The harm is theoretical and by any sane measure miniscule. The punishment is real and severe.


I don't make the laws but I support this law totally.

multisync
09-08-2009, 07:48 PM
is it just me or does anyone else do it by the book just because they cant get away with doing it wrong.

Same with murder theft and everyother crime. This is what civilisation is based on.




the only reason id tout so to speak on someone venting r22 is because i have to reclaim it.

Quite right and if we all behave as you the playing field become level and we all win.

Gary
09-08-2009, 08:08 PM
I don't make the laws but I support this law totally.

So... you are not a dictator, you are just an accomplice, right?

Sorry but that's not how it is... if you support this law then you must claim responsibility for it.

Gary
09-08-2009, 08:19 PM
Same with murder theft and everyother crime. This is what civilisation is based on.


Civilization is based upon laws which help us to defend ourselves against those who threaten our life, liberty and property. Who defends us against lawmakers who threaten our life, liberty and property? Certainly not you, the dictator's accomplice.

thebigcheese
09-08-2009, 08:25 PM
gary i take it you dont like the fgas then

Gary
09-08-2009, 08:30 PM
Slavery was once the law, complete with informants and severe punishments. And it had popular support. Now the laws are just the opposite.

Was slavery right then, but wrong now? Or was slavery always wrong?

Should laws be obeyed when they are just plain wrong?... just because "it's the law"?

Should we all become informants just because "it's the law"?

Gary
09-08-2009, 08:45 PM
gary i take it you dont like the fgas then

I don't like the entire environmentalist movement. The inmates are running the asylum, with a little help from their accomplices to encourage them and further the insanity.

If nobody objects then it is going to get much worse.

Gary
09-08-2009, 09:19 PM
I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe, nor spreading the word far and wide, so long as they are not forcing their beliefs on others.

As soon as some idiot says, "Let's pass a law", thus inviting the participation of the low life, bottom feeding, scum of the earth, dregs of humanity, scumbag politicians, then the belief system has crossed the line and poses a very real (not theoretical) danger to the rest of us.

Gary
10-08-2009, 03:32 AM
Where have I once said I actually believe the environmental nonsense? I don't but I agree with these laws only wish it went much further and was enforced far stricter than it ever will be..

I am not surprised. Your only interest in all of this is in using the laws to fleece your customers. You are no better than the politicians.

And good luck with fleecing your customers... the politicians are going to bleed you dry and kick you to the curb... you are the mark.

jdunc2301
10-08-2009, 09:57 AM
I havent checked this post for a few days!
Checking it out sat in the rain and theres talk of dictators and all sorts.


All i wanted to know, was what people thought of a suspected Engineer venting!

Its obvious that someone has got a bee in his bonnet and does'nt agree with 'certain' laws and the 'creators' of these laws.
Myself? I will carry on practising what i was taught and what the laws dictate i should do.

If the laws change and do not stipulate reclaiming etc, i will be the first to ditch it, afterall it can be a pain!
But until then its law... Its good practice and i honestly believe it sets engineers apart, i look forward to the day that someone is caught, and prosecuted.
That will be the only way to prevent these bad practices!

F gas regulations on leak checking will NOT be adhered to by smaller customers until... One of the big firms gets a slap in the face for it, if Tesco Asda M&S received
A large fine which would be reflected on the news, smaller customers and operators will adhere to the law.

Can this post be closed as its just a Mess! And quite dissapointing at how patronising the answers and posts have become.

multisync
10-08-2009, 10:44 AM
gary i take it you dont like the fgas then


I honestly don't believe he has a clue what these laws are about, he's sitting with his tinfoil hat on in the blazin sun :off topic: ranting about consipricy plus a few of his amusing early childhood days of slavery, burning witches and such stuff. (it was obviously tough for him back then...)

multisync
10-08-2009, 10:47 AM
I havent checked this post for a few days!
Checking it out sat in the rain and theres talk of dictators and all sorts.


All i wanted to know, was what people thought of a suspected Engineer venting!

Its obvious that someone has got a bee in his bonnet and does'nt agree with 'certain' laws and the 'creators' of these laws.
Myself? I will carry on practising what i was taught and what the laws dictate i should do.

If the laws change and do not stipulate reclaiming etc, i will be the first to ditch it, afterall it can be a pain!
But until then its law... Its good practice and i honestly believe it sets engineers apart, i look forward to the day that someone is caught, and prosecuted.
That will be the only way to prevent these bad practices!

F gas regulations on leak checking will NOT be adhered to by smaller customers until... One of the big firms gets a slap in the face for it, if Tesco Asda M&S received
A large fine which would be reflected on the news, smaller customers and operators will adhere to the law.

Can this post be closed as its just a Mess! And quite dissapointing at how patronising the answers and posts have become.


Before you go can I just say 'fair play'

You are the future of this industry and I wish you great success :cool:

multisync
10-08-2009, 10:54 AM
I am not surprised. Your only interest in all of this is in using the laws to fleece your customers. You are no better than the politicians.

And good luck with fleecing your customers... the politicians are going to bleed you dry and kick you to the curb... you are the mark.


So do you stand by your remark "The bodgers are getting it done"

My interest is to drive out these bodgers you seem to want to keep in our industry.
My interest is to drive up quality, training, standards and image.

If you consider this 'fleecing' then I feel sorry for you...

Gary
10-08-2009, 02:56 PM
So do you stand by your remark "The bodgers are getting it done"

My interest is to drive out these bodgers you seem to want to keep in our industry.
My interest is to drive up quality, training, standards and image.

If you consider this 'fleecing' then I feel sorry for you...

The laws have absolutely nothing to do with quality, training, standards or image. They are about taking your money.

You would like to believe that anyone who doesn't have the governments blessing can't possibly know what they are doing, but if that were so then you would prosper by cleaning up their mistakes and you wouldn't be complaining about them.

Obviously the bodgers are getting it done or you wouldn't be whining about them. I hope they put you out of business.

You believe that paying off the government gives you a license to steal. It doesn't work that way. The license doesn't matter. Training is what matters. Doing the job right is what matters. If you can't compete without the government eliminating your competition for you, then the quality of your work must really suck.

Gary
10-08-2009, 04:00 PM
Before I retired, I belonged to a union. The union shops had no problem competing with the non-union shops because the quality of their work really was better. Not because they held union cards, but because they provided ongoing training for their members. Training is what matters. The quality of the work is what matters.

My union didn't whine about the non-union shops or petition the government to put them out of business. They competed on quality.

But then there are unions and there are unions. Some unions just take the members money, provide no training and constantly whine about their inability to compete with the non-union bodgers. (Their definition of bodger, actually they call them scabs, is anyone who does not have a union card. Is that you?) They take the money and give nothing in return... just like the government.

Gary
10-08-2009, 04:49 PM
Before you go can I just say 'fair play'

You are the future of this industry and I wish you great success :cool:

The industry is moving toward easy installs and self-diagnostics... and eventually they will get it right.

Who will you inform on then?... what good will it do you?

There are two ways to compete: You can outrun the other guy or you can reach out and trip him. Which strategy do you subscribe to?

jdunc2301
10-08-2009, 05:48 PM
The laws have absolutely nothing to do with quality, training, standards or image. They are about taking your money.

You would like to believe that anyone who doesn't have the governments blessing can't possibly know what they are doing, but if that were so then you would prosper cleaning up their mistakes and you wouldn't be complaining about the bodgers.

To a certain extent i agree, all of my training was work based, riding around in the van with the boss. I didn't have a NVQ college course near me!
As and when i was ready the company put me in to do certain short training courses with an approved body, this was mainly incase an accident happened at work any qualifications would hopefully show that i was competent in brazing for example.....

To be honest everytime i was on these courses i would sit with 10-15 guys aged 16-60 and i can honestly say 90% did not have a clue.... most had completed NVQ's and presumed that because they completed their training they knew their stuff!! Unfortunately they didn't. But they still passed the courses, the course was made to pass.
When i say they didn't know their stuff it was very obvious, the teacher would have to squeeze answers from them and the simplest questions puzzled these guys.
So its true... having a certificate does not mean you are the dogs knackers nor does it mean you know what your doing.

HOWEVER... with the new F Gas qualification and the older safe handling certificate which covers issue's like venting refrigerants and poor practice whilst handling refrigerants.

When i attended the course to renew my ticket yet again i was shocked at how little some people knew and the technical knowledge made me really wonder how they managed day by day.
This time the engineers who didn't know their job failed! They have to retest which means they have to learn to pass the test.

If not wiping out bad practice, the tighter and harder test's and qualifications will discourage cowboys and engineers who frankly have no idea what they are doing from continuing in the industry......

Yes some engineers have no qualifications and yes it is a pain to go and get certified, surely if they are confident with their work they have nothing to worry about do they???

If your an installer or engineer that is not entirely confident with the theory and good practices of the industry, attending training courses will refresh your knowledge and make you a better engineer.
Won't it?

Many engineers on the F gas course did not know what superheat was!! (A youg guy fresh from college and an older couple of guys 50+).
Certification has its uses and it's pain in the backside side of things.


The industry is moving toward easy installs and self-diagnostics... and eventually they will get it right.

Who will you inform on then?... what good will it do you?


There are two ways to compete: You can outrun the other guy or you can reach out and trip him. Which strategy do you subscribe to?

Yeah unfortunately it is moving towards easy installs and diagnosis....more cowboys can pretend they know their stuff cant they?

I have'nt reported the firm to the police, i have reported them to the site staff (a very nice hotel)
The maintenance manager thanked us for reporting it and will look into the matter at future maintenance visits... i explained to the maintenance manager that it may have been prefectly harmless....recent re gas of the system or the bottle was pressurised with compressed air. But he needs to be aware that if the engineer is venting refrigerant to clean condensers he is breaking the law...ending in poor publicity for the customer's hotel.


There are two ways to compete: You can outrun the other guy or you can reach out and trip him. Which strategy do you subscribe to?

Believe me...i have outran everyone i have ever come across in this industry... i am young and i do not for one second think i know it all, when i dont know something i look for the answer from experienced engineers whom i trust.
Or i crack out my computer and books and learn myself.

I have on many occasion proved my worth to older more experienced engineers and customers!

Even though your a very clever guy (reading your posts) and i believe you have a tech book out, seem like a very grumpy old man, who does not want to change, anyone who believes change...like me..with regards to regulations etc has hot oil poured over them.

I THINK THIS POST SHOULD CLOSE NOW, you and multisync have had your fun and games and your obviously too different to agree!

Oh and for the record thanks multisync it's nice to have encouragement from an older engineer
:p

Gary
10-08-2009, 05:59 PM
I THINK THIS POST SHOULD CLOSE NOW, you and multisync have had your fun and games and your obviously too different to agree!


I'm thinking you are probably right... we have both done some venting in this thread... lol

Although I'm not certain that I have fully expressed how I feel about the scum sucking politicians of the world.

beagle
10-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Gary, you really need to see how it is here before drawing conclusions. I've seen corner shop owners happily walking away from tradecounters with an expansion valve in one hand and a bottle of 22 in the other, plumbers, boiler engineers and anyone that fancies a go at brazing pipework being sold splits, 15m of pipe and a turbotorch... the list is endless, and that's before you even consider the "dabblers".

It's not just that people mike Multisync need their livelyhood protected, these DIY morons need to be protected from themselves.

Gary
10-08-2009, 09:44 PM
Gary, you really need to see how it is here before drawing conclusions. I've seen corner shop owners happily walking away from tradecounters with an expansion valve in one hand and a bottle of 22 in the other, plumbers, boiler engineers and anyone that fancies a go at brazing pipework being sold splits, 15m of pipe and a turbotorch... the list is endless, and that's before you even consider the "dabblers".

This has been going on for as long as I can remember, and that's a very long time. It probably dates back to the invention of refrigeration.

There are those who acquire sufficient skills and training to properly repair their own systems, and more power to them.

Others screw it up and need to call in a service company. They are good for business.

This has been going on forever... in all trades.


It's not just that people mike Multisync need their livelyhood protected, these DIY morons need to be protected from themselves.

Nobody should be protected from competition... and nobody should be protected from themselves. We are responsible for the consequences of our own actions.

The last thing we need is a nanny goverment deciding who will win and who will lose.

Everyone competes... the difference these days is that the playing field has been tilted against you... by the government.

beagle
10-08-2009, 09:49 PM
Have to agree to disagree on this one then, don't hold it against me I do enjoy your posts, even the rants ;)

Gary
10-08-2009, 10:12 PM
Have you ever repaired a leaky faucet in your home?... or unplugged a drain? Shouldn't you have been forced to call in a licensed plumber, thereby ensuring his livelihood?

Gary
10-08-2009, 10:13 PM
Have to agree to disagree on this one then, don't hold it against me I do enjoy your posts, even the rants ;)

Fair enough... and no I don't hold grudges against the misguided.

multisync
10-08-2009, 11:53 PM
The laws have absolutely nothing to do with quality, training, standards or image. They are about taking your money.

You would like to believe that anyone who doesn't have the governments blessing can't possibly know what they are doing, but if that were so then you would prosper by cleaning up their mistakes and you wouldn't be complaining about them.

Obviously the bodgers are getting it done or you wouldn't be whining about them. I hope they put you out of business.

You believe that paying off the government gives you a license to steal. It doesn't work that way. The license doesn't matter. Training is what matters. Doing the job right is what matters. If you can't compete without the government eliminating your competition for you, then the quality of your work must really suck.


Don't tell me what I believe or don't believe. You make stuff up then argue as if you know what you're talking about. You don't

It's patently obvious you have not got a clue what these laws are or about. You are just spouting off what you think these laws are.

If anyone is good enough they take a test. If they pass they get a certificate, if they fail they take it again. Just like a driving test. Training is all important because without it they won't pass. As jdunc2301 said the standard of engineers is pitiful. That needs to change. Regulation will force that change. As even you admit the industry won't change itself.

Ironically as champion of the bodgers you don't want them to change or get qualified. Just buy a dodgy Ebook and "whey hey I'm a fridgie"
Your book can only survive with the bodgers still around. Your market is shrinking because those nasty dictators (who always seem to remain nameless but do feel to post a name, come on just one, I know you can do it...) force those poor lidddle bodgers to get proper training not some dodgy Ebook.

The penny's starting to drop, this is all about you protecting your pension.

Champion of the bodgers-No wonder you're bitter and twisted

multisync
11-08-2009, 01:04 AM
This has been going on for as long as I can remember, and that's a very long time. It probably dates back to the invention of refrigeration.

There are those who acquire sufficient skills and training to properly repair their own systems, and more power to them.

Others screw it up and need to call in a service company. They are good for business.

This has been going on forever... in all trades.


As usual you stand up for the bodgers, never mind the fact that they go in and rip people off leaving kit broken or damaged or worse still in a potentially fatal condition. The laws (which you appear to actually know nothing of) are to ensure engineers are trained to a standard sufficient to undertake the work in a safe manner with respect to themselves, the customers and the environment. This is not ripping people off.



Nobody should be protected from competition...

Quite right but companies should be protected from unfair competition. Microsoft is forced to allow competitors to compete as if left alone they would destroy anyone attempting to get into the market. Wrong in your book no doubt but the real world is not black and white.
Rightly or wrongly our wholly elected government has decided that HCFC's should be controlled. Part of this measure means engineers need to prove skills. A simple test is all it takes. Yet many fail. That shows the trade is poor as an average and it needs to train up. Those who have refused to train (because they thought they were skilled enough) will either sharpen their pencil or leave the industry. I welcome both eventualities.





and nobody should be protected from themselves. We are responsible for the consequences of our own actions.


More naive BS. Seatbelts were brought in to protect people from going through the windscreen. Sadly people were too dumb to wear them so they made it compulsory. "Oh my liberty, my civil rights, my freedom" My arse! Sadly Joe average is as dumb as a pile of poo and needs protecting from himself as far as humanly possible. Builders on work sites moan and moan about H&S but the accident book gathers dust on those sites regulated the strictest. People need protecting not only from themselves but also from other people.

IF this legislation is correctly enforced the public can have confidence that the engineer they call is able to carry out the work in a competent and safe manner. That is what these laws are about.


The last thing we need is a nanny government deciding who will win and who will lose.

You're rambling again.. what exactly are you on about..? Besides you are an American living in America there is no 'we' here. Stay over your side with your bodger mates.


Everyone competes... the difference these days is that the playing field has been tilted against you... by the government.

Another aimless ramble. You don't know what OUR government is or what it does..

lowcool
11-08-2009, 02:26 AM
whilst this post is still going,how is it that chlorine in refrigerants is destroying the ozone layer,yet chlorine in water doesnt,yet they are both denser than air.nobody yet has me convinced on this issue.

is there a government representative on this site anywhere as pauline hanson said PLEASE EXPLAIN !

Gary
11-08-2009, 03:15 AM
Sadly Joe average is as dumb as a pile of poo and needs protecting from himself as far as humanly possible.

I'm sure Joe average, being dumb as a pile of poo, is eternally grateful for all of the adult supervision and will welcome further intrusions into every little nook and cranny of his life.

multisync
11-08-2009, 09:28 AM
I'm sure Joe average, being dumb as a pile of poo, is eternally grateful for all of the adult supervision and will welcome further intrusions into every little nook and cranny of his life.


Unlikely, unless as they have a brief moment of enlightenment as they stop just short of the windscreen by the seatbelt they were forced to wear by some nameless dictator..:D

lowcool
11-08-2009, 09:44 AM
had a look at a post from mr cool 29/08/01 similar topic discussion,things havent changed except the gov has created more employment,increased the income ten times more or less,i dont care.where the hell is the solution to this problem.

had one explanation re chlorine and ozone which is the one they dreamed up in the eighties.

can anyone answer my question factually or am i the only one who doesnt know what the fuchs going on!

multisync
11-08-2009, 02:20 PM
whilst this post is still going,how is it that chlorine in refrigerants is destroying the ozone layer,yet chlorine in water doesnt,yet they are both denser than air.nobody yet has me convinced on this issue.

is there a government representative on this site anywhere as pauline hanson said PLEASE EXPLAIN !

For every pro there is an anti. It is pointless to discuss the science of this topic here because, well we're basically too stupid to understand who is wrong or right so we all just go with our gut and look for someone to back us up.

That isn't science it's right up there with clairvoyance

pro-

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/myths/heavier.html


anti
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/ozone/king.htm

Your call...

Gary
11-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Unlikely, unless as they have a brief moment of enlightenment as they stop just short of the windscreen by the seatbelt they were forced to wear by some nameless dictator..:D

You really don't get the freedom thing, do you?

You just don't understand why people would be happier making their own wrong decisions than to have a benevolent government making all of the right decisions for them. And you see no difference between using persuasion (makes allies) and using force (makes enemies). Seems you will spend your life wondering why there are so many angry and defiant people out there.

The dictators of the world envision societies wherein everyone is happy and obedient, but the reality always turns out to be societies wherein all of the dumb as a pile of poo subjects are angry and rebellious. How can that be? It's just a puzzle to you, isn't it?

multisync
11-08-2009, 09:29 PM
You really don't get the freedom thing, do you?
You don't 'get' that you have been sold this 'freedom' in order to control you.Think you're free- dream on.


You just don't understand why people would be happier making their own wrong decisions than to have a benevolent government making all of the right decisions for them.

When they make the right decision they are happy. When they make the wrong one they shout "Why didn't you stop me?"



And you see no difference between using persuasion (makes allies) and using force (makes enemies). Seems you will spend your life wondering why there are so many angry and defiant people out there.

Tell me one law where people have been persuaded. Nope doesn't work. People only ever respond to the prospect of punishment.

Seatbelts and the freethinkers

In 1967 it was made compulsory that seatbelts must be fitted to all cars in the UK

In 1984 it was made compulsory that they had to be worn! Why you may ask?/ well the freethinkers did not think past their liberties and couldn't grasp that going face first through laminated glass wasn't such a great idea. The freethinkers couldn't be trusted sufficiently to think. The thinking had to be done by others who could see that seatbelts saved lives, time heartache and money.


The dictators of the world envision societies wherein everyone is happy and obedient,

For society to be civilised the majority need to behave in a civilised manner. That means happy and obedient. The sign Say's CROSS or DON'T CROSS. we all happily obey or face the consequences


but the reality always turns out to be societies wherein all of the dumb as a pile of poo subjects are angry and rebellious. How can that be?

Maybe in your reality they are all angry and rebellious but I don't see anarchy in the UK. The only time that happens is when law and order breakdown.

However I do understand why certain people get angry that some freethinkers don't care about anything other than themselves, or defiant that McDonald's should not be allowed to rape the planet just so fat Americans can get fatter but perhaps it's only a certian type of freethinkers you approve of??



It's just a puzzle to you, isn't it?


The only puzzling thing is that every time I ask for a name of one of these phantom dictators you can't name one. This omission marks you out as a Loon, a lovable loon for sure but a loon none the less..

Gary
11-08-2009, 09:44 PM
As I said, you don't have a clue. Freedom is not the same thing as anarchy.

In your twisted imagination you believe that everyone wants to be controlled and you will have it no other way.

You are the loon.

Gary
11-08-2009, 10:23 PM
You don't 'get' that you have been sold this 'freedom' in order to control you.Think you're free- dream on.

I am more free than some and less free than I wish to be. Freedom is relative. If I had delusions about my relative level of freedom, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.


When they make the right decision they are happy. When they make the wrong one they shout "Why didn't you stop me?"


Here you describe your philosophy, not mine. This is what you would shout, because you want to be controlled. I would not shout this, because unlike you, I have no desire to be controlled.

Rather than see people as they are, you see them as you want to believe they are.

tonyhavcr
12-08-2009, 01:26 AM
This was a heck of a lot of fun to read.

Multisync and Gary both with a lot of passion!
Some say it could of been compressed air in it not likely.
I remember seeing the ABC news with Dan after this law was passed
and he said he saw the hole closing I was rolling.
Do I think refrigerant is eating the oz = no can I prove it no and what if I'm wrong as Gary said the time you find out it well be to late. Does any one know why swinging pools that dump 1000 of tons of chlorine ea. year in to the air dose not hurt the oz.

I'm not a environmental nut in any way but I do think all that crap we put in to the air dose come back to us over time in the water we drink the food and so on.

lowcool
12-08-2009, 03:47 AM
im with you 100% tony
its been good watching it roll out.
i reckon thats of thousands of tons of usage per day world wide to keep the meanies out of the pool.

lowcool
12-08-2009, 04:10 AM
thanks for the links multi read a couple of pages from epa.
it appears the epa has shot themselves in the feet,regarding cfcs,volcanos and wind.

multisync
12-08-2009, 06:48 AM
thanks for the links multi read a couple of pages from epa.
it appears the epa has shot themselves in the feet,regarding cfcs,volcanos and wind.


Didn't read the links too much myself but I remain firmly in the anti camp and always have. However whatever the truth may be, no freethinker can argue we are using Earth resources at an ever increasing rate and pollution is a major problem.
Laws that make HFC's being illegal to freely vent to atmosphere reduce waste and pollution. Both should be welcomed by the freethinkers not just within our industry but affected by our actions.

Gary
12-08-2009, 07:24 AM
However whatever the truth may be, no freethinker can argue we are using Earth resources at an ever increasing rate and pollution is a major problem.


As usual, you don't get it.

Here in Florida, we have no motorcycle helmet laws.

I have decided to wear a helmet, yet I am opposed to helmet laws.

I have a friend who has decided not to wear a helmet, and he is also opposed to helmet laws.

It is not about which side of the helmet wearing issue (or any other issue) you are on, it is about making your own decisions rather than having others decide for you. It is about persuasion versus force. It's your head, you decide.

BTW, if he gets in a crash, you won't hear my friend shouting, "Why didn't you stop me?"

Gary
12-08-2009, 07:35 AM
Oops... double post

multisync
12-08-2009, 07:35 AM
As I said, you don't have a clue. Freedom is not the same thing as anarchy.

Freedom is a perception not a reality.



In your twisted imagination you believe that everyone wants to be controlled and you will have it no other way.

You are the loon.


To a greater or lesser degree we all want to be controlled -or we would live outside civilised society- and want others to be controlled too -or get them removed outside civil society
If you choose to stay within the confines of civility then you are -by default- asking to be controlled (by these unnamed dictators ?)

There is a self dellusion in that a lot of white middle aged American men believe they -deep down- are all cowboys, free to roam the wilds of the west, drinking and killing with a "you're never gonna take me alive" attitude. Primarily infulenced as a child by John Wayne movies and watching too many eposides of Rawhide.

Sadly they can't be cowboys as it's dirty horrible and smelly plus they have to go to work in the morning, so next best thing is they buy a Harley with customary 'Live Hard, Ride Free' sticker and take off at the weekend (only if it's dry of course) and live the dream of being Peter Fonda out in the desert.

Course it's only a dream and it's work on Monday but till then...till then my friend...it's Hi ho Silver awaaaaaaaaay

Quality
12-08-2009, 07:44 AM
Hey everyone,

Went to a large site today, at the site there are several refrig/ac companies with smaller contracts on different pieces of kit.
Whilst i was waiting for the maintenance guys i spotted another tech from a firm around my area, we got chatting. He explained he was just a maintenance bloke for the company, carrying out the service.
I had a look at the kit and noticed something strange, oh and he was brushing off the condensers while i was chatting to him.

Anyway he had his steps out a brush, bottle of R22 and a hose attached to the bottle, no manifold just the hose.

Im just putting two and two together but it seems obvious that he was using the R22 to blow through the condensers.
R22 is working out quite cheap....
Really does annoy me considering i reclaimed 120g from a chiller this morning, the reckless twit may have vented 20x that amount.

Ggggrrrrr

Should really report it but theres no solid evidence im just going by what i saw!

I was on site yesterday doing my thing I saw a bloke replacing a compressor on a snack machine - cut the pipes, vented refrigerant, lockringed new compressor connections, 10 minute vac, charged with 134a job done. I said nothing to him or any body except every body here - Now what do any body suggest I should do ?

Gary
12-08-2009, 08:04 AM
To a greater or lesser degree we all want to be controlled -or we would live outside civilised society- and want others to be controlled too -or get them removed outside civil society
If you choose to stay within the confines of civility then you are -by default- asking to be controlled (by these unnamed dictators ?)

As I stated much earlier, civilization is about protecting us from each other, not protecting us from ourselves. Do you really not see the distinction?


There is a self dellusion in that a lot of white middle aged American men believe they -deep down- are all cowboys, free to roam the wilds of the west, drinking and killing with a "you're never gonna take me alive" attitude. Primarily infulenced as a child by John Wayne movies and watching too many eposides of Rawhide.

Sadly they can't be cowboys as it's dirty horrible and smelly plus they have to go to work in the morning, so next best thing is they buy a Harley with customary 'Live Hard, Ride Free' sticker and take off at the weekend (only if it's dry of course) and live the dream of being Peter Fonda out in the desert.

Course it's only a dream and it's work on Monday but till then...till then my friend...it's Hi ho Silver awaaaaaaaaay

Where did this come from? Is this the propoganda they are feeding you over there? That bikers in the USA think they are cowboys? That's ridiculous... lol

I know a lot of bikers and none of them think they are cowboys... lol

I'm thinking it is you who has bought into the Hollywood (or whatever equivalent you have over there) b*llsh*t version of... well... just about everthing. You really need to turn off the telly and get a grip on reality.

tonyhavcr
12-08-2009, 12:27 PM
I was on site yesterday doing my thing I saw a bloke replacing a compressor on a snack machine - cut the pipes, vented refrigerant, lockringed new compressor connections, 10 minute vac, charged with 134a job done. I said nothing to him or any body except every body here - Now what do any body suggest I should do ?

He cut the pipes, vented refrigerant in the open!
We do not like the law but we follow them, only the politicians do not have to follow the laws :off topic:

10 minute vac, charged with 134a job done. now here is the real crime!

lowcool
12-08-2009, 02:12 PM
tony he's in work and so is the government.

long live the marlborough man and harley davidson.

south aust was the first to implement this garbage and helmet laws being compulsory.take ya jocks off multi,swim in the sea and enjoy freedom.even if you are surrounded by sharks or crocs if you dont keep an eye out they will get you.self governence is the rule of nature,if your not smart your dead and the strongest always survives, some are even in the disguise of mosquitos,politicians or leeches,oops sorry i didnt mean to bring the man in on this.

as ned kelly said -such is life.
hanged because the man saw it fit.not from ned being persecuted in the first place.
lowlifes! in this day an age he would have had grand children and a mum that would have been in an asylum from the atrocities upon herself and family created by the man.

multisync
12-08-2009, 07:47 PM
As I stated much earlier, civilization is about protecting us from each other, not protecting us from ourselves. Do you really not see the distinction?
.

Still no names for these dictators -they don't exist do they ?

Gary
12-08-2009, 08:12 PM
Still no names for these dictators -they don't exist do they ?

You seem to feel this is an important point. Name a person who shouted "Why didn't you stop me?" Will this prove anything? No. Naming names is a totally irrelevant and pitifully lame attempt to change the subject.

multisync
13-08-2009, 05:57 AM
You seem to feel this is an important point. Name a person who shouted "Why didn't you stop me?" Will this prove anything? No. Naming names is a totally irrelevant and pitifully lame attempt to change the subject.


Your whole argument has been based on 'dictators' imposing laws. I called you out to name these dictators. You can't, so by defination your argument is based on a false premise and as such worthless.

Gary
13-08-2009, 07:29 AM
Your whole argument has been based on 'dictators' imposing laws. I called you out to name these dictators. You can't, so by defination your argument is based on a false premise and as such worthless.

And I'm betting that you think that statement makes sense. You probably even think it is logical.

Just admit defeat gracefully and quit grasping for straws.

multisync
13-08-2009, 10:05 PM
And I'm betting that you think that statement makes sense. You probably even think it is logical.

Just admit defeat gracefully and quit grasping for straws.


Ah the old "Quick look over there!" trick..

Sadly my bearded friend it hasn't worked -you're a spent force here...

frostedflake
14-08-2009, 07:03 AM
best post by far here in the RE forum!

thanks to the mods for allowing the sharing of ideas regardles the subject!

rock on!

jdunc2301
14-08-2009, 04:36 PM
I was on site yesterday doing my thing I saw a bloke replacing a compressor on a snack machine - cut the pipes, vented refrigerant, lockringed new compressor connections, 10 minute vac, charged with 134a job done. I said nothing to him or any body except every body here - Now what do any body suggest I should do ?

I only mentioned it to the site maintenance because i suspected, if i saw it then i would get his ass fired.....


ohh and all i can say to gary and multisync is ....Oh dear what a pickle!

multysinc is just ahead! 2/1 favourite :D