How do you rate these Brands?

[caygie]

Hi Everyone,

I have quite a large space that needs airco and have several quotes but I have no idea of the quality offered. With a car I know the difference in quality between a Ferrari/Porsche:D or a Kia/Hyundai:eek: but for airco I haven’t a clue.
I’ve spent hours hunting the internet trying to find out the difference between the brands but am still none the wiser. I found this site and thought you may be able to help.

My shortlist is down to 4 quotes. They are all Inverters,
Airwell
Fujitsu
Mitsubishi
Fuji

What score would you give them out of 10 for Value for money?
What score would you give them out of 10 for Reliability?


I am in The Netherlands if makes a difference to how you would rate them.


Thanks in advance for your advice.


Caygie

[Frostycold]

Hi Everyone,

I have quite a large space that needs airco and have several quotes but I have no idea of the quality offered. With a car I know the difference in quality between a Ferrari/Porsche:D or a Kia/Hyundai:eek: but for airco I haven’t a clue.
I’ve spent hours hunting the internet trying to find out the difference between the brands but am still none the wiser. I found this site and thought you may be able to help.

My shortlist is down to 4 quotes. They are all Inverters,
Airwell
Fujitsu
Mitsubishi
Fuji

What score would you give them out of 10 for Value for money?
What score would you give them out of 10 for Reliability?


I am in The Netherlands if makes a difference to how you would rate them.


Thanks in advance for your advice.


Caygie
Hi Caygie
"Inverter" only relates to the compressors. The 4 Brands that you mention Fujitsu & Mitsubishi are the more popular ones here in the UK. However you must tell us the type of system & a bit more information than "Quite a large space" is required. Example: If your space is a factory then Fujitsu is cheaper than Mitsubishi. If your space is an office then Mitsubishi is quieter than Fujitsu. If the systems are VRF then in Holland you'll require the one with the lowest "Building Divergence" %. Mitsubishi work on 150% whereas Toshiba work on 125%. This is why you must provide more information. To use your own example of the Ferrari & the Porsche the models of each manufacturer are relevent as you would use the Porsche 4 X 4 to tow your caravan rather than a Ferrari sports car.
Regards
Frostycold

[superswill]

caygie

when choosing "whats best" there are many contributing factors

application/environment

easy of use

spares/kit availability

Warranty

price

ect ect

not one manufacture offers "the solution" its alot depending on whats best for the job in hand

[caygie]

Thanks for your responses. I was interested if any of the brands were going to get a really high or low ratings as a starting point.
The space is a little unusual but I will try my best to describe it . The total space is around 1100³m with a ceiling height of 5m. About half of the area is split into 2 levels and the remainder is double height. The space is used as a food shop. The main shop space is in the double height area and storage is in the split areas. It is mainly open plan with only one area partitioned off which will not need direct airco.

The shortlist is,
Airwell
2X Flo30 or PNX24


Fujitsu
3X ABYA24LAT with 3X AOYA24LACL

Mitsubishi
2X SRK 71 ZE-S with 2XSRC 71 ZE-S

Fuji
3X RJW-24L

Pricewise.
Mitsubishi is cheapest at around €7000.
Fujitsu and Fuji are around €9000
Airwell comes in at around €1000


Im sorry if this is incomplete information but each quote gives the information differently so it can make it difficult to compare.

Frostycold. You ask if the system is VRF. What is a VRF system?

Thanks again

Caygie

[superswill]

Thanks for your responses. I was interested if any of the brands were going to get a really high or low ratings as a starting point.
The space is a little unusual but I will try my best to describe it . The total space is around 1100³m with a ceiling height of 5m. About half of the area is split into 2 levels and the remainder is double height. The space is used as a food shop. The main shop space is in the double height area and storage is in the split areas. It is mainly open plan with only one area partitioned off which will not need direct airco.

The shortlist is,
Airwell
2X Flo30 or PNX24


Fujitsu
3X ABYA24LAT with 3X AOYA24LACL

Mitsubishi
2X SRK 71 ZE-S with 2XSRC 71 ZE-S

Fuji
3X RJW-24L

Pricewise.
Mitsubishi is cheapest at around €7000.
Fujitsu and Fuji are around €9000
Airwell comes in at around €1000


Im sorry if this is incomplete information but each quote gives the information differently so it can make it difficult to compare.

Frostycold. You ask if the system is VRF. What is a VRF system?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Thanks again

Caygie

What is VRF?
Variable refrigerant flow (vrf) also known as variable refrigerant volume (vrv).

This type of system consists of a number of air handling units (possibly up to 48) connected to a modular external condensing unit.

The refrigerant flow is varied using either an inverter controlled variable speed compressor, or multiple compressors of varying capacity in response to changes in the cooling or heating requirement within the air conditioned space.

A sophisticated control system enables switching between the heating and cooling modes
In more sophisticated versions, the indoor units may operate in heating or cooling mode independently of others
This latter arrangement offers potential energy savings when heating and cooling are required simultaneously in different zones
This type of system requires no internal plant room space and offers great flexibility through the many types of air handling units available
Applications vary from office, retail, hotel, luxury apartments, industrial, new and retrofitted buildings


taken from net

[Prince Vaillant]

Check the minimum operating temperatures. If memory serves me correct the airwell will work in temperatures of up to -20 degrees.

[caygie]

I have just spotted a zero is missing.

The Airwell comes in at around €10000 and not €1000

[lowcool]

thought i was onto a bargain.fujitsu i have thought to be reasonable value for money here.as was suggested earlier get the one that best suits your climate

[airefresco]

Looking through the units proposed, It looks as though they are all quoting for different types of units and capacities. For example, the Mitsubishi, Airwell and Fuji systems are all wallmounted I believe. The Fujitsu is a ceiling mounted unit.

With the capacities the Mitsubishi and Airwell have 4kW less cooling capacity (more or less) than the other two options, which would lead me to believe that someone has done the sums wrong somewhere, or they don´t know how to and are guessing.

If this was me I would contact the company and ask how they calculated the cooling capacities, even ask if they could show you the calculations. Also why they chose that particular style of unit. From there you would get a better idea I think of who knows what they are doing and who doesn´t. That would help you get that list down to 2 companies.

[caygie]

Looking through the units proposed, It looks as though they are all quoting for different types of units and capacities. For example, the Mitsubishi, Airwell and Fuji systems are all wallmounted I believe. The Fujitsu is a ceiling mounted unit.

With the capacities the Mitsubishi and Airwell have 4kW less cooling capacity (more or less) than the other two options, which would lead me to believe that someone has done the sums wrong somewhere, or they don´t know how to and are guessing.

If this was me I would contact the company and ask how they calculated the cooling capacities, even ask if they could show you the calculations. Also why they chose that particular style of unit. From there you would get a better idea I think of who knows what they are doing and who doesn´t. That would help you get that list down to 2 companies.

Hi Airefresco, thanks for your input.

Ceiling or Wall mounted is not an issue here. There is loads of space for both options.

With the difference in capacities thats no great surprise to me.
Of all the quotes requested,
One was sent using only the information in my request for a quote. (I binned that straight away)
Another 3or4 just looked at the space and guessed, Does that show they are just very experienced and can do it without a calculator?

One took partial measurements, asked lots of questions and was helpful.(Airwell)
The last one spent along time here, took proper measurements, asked lots of questions and was very helpful. He was not pushy and explained a lot of things, listened to me and revised his plan to make the final offer.(Fuji)


At this time I think the Fuji gets my money. Second choice I think is the Airwell. The two at the top of my list were the ones who made the effort. (Note to sales people, show more respect to the small businesses and they may spend money with you.) I know I still need to research their aftercare.
I have also asked the Mitsubishi supplier to re-quote with 3 units instead of 2. That will give me a more like for like comparison. But as he seems so far off the first time I suppose I dont really have much confidence in that option.
The Airwell supplier is a local company, just around the corner, and is coming again tomorrow to see if he can better the offer they made. As they are local and have been very helpful I would like to put my business their way but I am not sure about the Airwell product. In my original hunt for information I ended up viewing threads on this forum which were not very complementary about Airwell.
So which to go for Fuji or Airwell? or one of the others?



Thanks


Caygie

[airefresco]

To be perfectly honest, I´ve never heard of Fuji so I can´t comment on them. Airwell I have limited experience with, but it has been bad experience. With that been said, I´ve not worked on that equipment for a while, so maybe it is better now. Maybe someone else can help you with that.

In regards to guessing cooling capacities, I often do that with domestic stuff. But something as large as this I would imagine there would be too many variables to guess accurately.

If this was a job I was quoting for I would have used Daikin equipment as a first option and probably General/Fujitsu as a second option. I would have also quoted for ceiling mounted units as they have a further air throw, which I think may be something you would benefit from, if i´ve understood your description correctly.

EDIT: Actually, I probably would have quoted for cassette units too, if that was a possibility.

[gtiair]

In my opinion most people have thier preferances of brands I prefer carrier, york, R C as i trained on them and familiar with their controls workings and set up, basically for after sales service

[caygie]

The Fuji supplier did say a cassette unit would be his first choice but it is not an option because the ceiling is concrete. He said the unit he quoted for had a 5m blow range( I dont know the technical name) so it would be a good alternative to a cassette unit.

[oldschooleng]

Between the brands you mentioned their is only one choice,mitsubishi they are reliable and have good back up if things go wrong.

[lowcool]

you dont need a ceiling to mount a cassette,being a concrete structure over head i dont think fixing straight to it will hurt.ie. suspend it off with rod.

[airefresco]

Between the brands you mentioned their is only one choice,mitsubishi they are reliable and have good back up if things go wrong.

Are you basing that on the UK backup or the Netherlands? This guy is in the Netherlands.


you dont need a ceiling to mount a cassette,being a concrete structure over head i dont think fixing straight to it will hurt.ie. suspend it off with rod.

Very true, or use the type that Daikin do. I think Panasonic and possibly other manufacturers would do a similar type of system.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3572/fuyint.th.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/fuyint.jpg/)

[Frostycold]

Hi Caygie
Presumably you're looking at Heat Pumps ie Summer cooling & Winter heating. If memory serves me correctly the Dutch climate is Hot Sticky Thunderous Summers & Freezing cold Winters. Dutch people have Skates in their houses for the canals in winter. You need to bear this in mind when choosing air conditioning, also most manufacturers have both commercial & domestic options. The commercial options are more expensive but are also much more robust & work better in extremes of climate.
Regards
Frostycold

[Frostycold]

Hi
On the subject of indoor units Choose the accessable option as all these units will have filters that will require regular cleaning so putting a cassette straight to a ceiling 3 to 5 metres high if not higher is going to cause long term maintenance problems. Eg scaffolding may be required just to clean the filters. The extremes of climate in Holland are also important & need to be taken into account. I believe that Dutch people have Skates in their houses for skating on the canals in Winter & that there are hot thunderous summers in Holland. You need to choose the system that can best cope with these points.
Regards
Frostycold

[lowcool]

hey airefresco havent seen one this style before.it looks better than folded colourbond for a surround especially for an instal in that type of location.
cheers mate

[nike123]

To be perfectly honest, I´ve never heard of Fuji so I can´t comment on them.

Fuji is another trade name of Fujitsu-General Airconditioning.
There is also other trade names as Fujitsu, General, Dynamic, Atlantic, Hiyasu.

They are simmilar in quality and difference is in model numbers. Also, they are made for different markets and could be some difference in their "palette" of products.

[S_Line]

Yep Fuji is a different branding of Fujitsu, the units are the same.
Mitsi everytime for me for choice.

[acnerd]

I agree with S_Line. Mitsubishi is one of the best systems on the market and I have very few problems with a correctly installed system.

[frank]

Hi
On the subject of indoor units Choose the accessable option as all these units will have filters that will require regular cleaning so putting a cassette straight to a ceiling 3 to 5 metres high if not higher is going to cause long term maintenance problems.

The manufacturers recommend that cassettes are not installed in excess of 3.4m ceiling height, so, if you need something to suit a ceiling higher than this you should select something more suitable. Check the product literature for more information.

[airefresco]

So is Mitsi Heavy Industries that good now? I always thought they were kind of in Fujitsu´s sort of league, if not a bit lower?

On the ceiling height, don´t put the cassette on the ceiling, hang it down a couple of meters and jobs a good´un :)

[Prince Vaillant]

A properly installed system from any manufacturer will be fine. You will not need any technical backup as you are not installing it. Go for the cheapest option and have it installed by an engineer.

[airefresco]

I am sorry but that is just rubbish advise. What happens if there is a fault and the install engineers don´t want to know? If there is not good spares backup in your country for a certain make, then any future company may find it difficult or maybe impossible to locate spares. Which of course means your air conditioning is not working while the parts are located (if at all). Which means your shop is warm.

You should choose which ever sales engineer you feel is the most knowledgeable and which equipment you feel suits you needs best (including spares backup).

[Magoo]

Check the operational efficiency ratings, generally a star rating. Minimum 5 star. Plus check minimum out door temp/winter rating.

[Prince Vaillant]

I am sorry but that is just rubbish advise. What happens if there is a fault and the install engineers don´t want to know? If there is not good spares backup in your country for a certain make, then any future company may find it difficult or maybe impossible to locate spares. Which of course means your air conditioning is not working while the parts are located (if at all). Which means your shop is warm.

You should choose which ever sales engineer you feel is the most knowledgeable and which equipment you feel suits you needs best (including spares backup).

OK then go for a really expensive one with excellent backup have a go at installing it yourself and if that fails call out an excellent engineer who will relish the chance to put your mistakes right and will give you his home phone number and mobile just in case you have any problems!
Then if that fails you could call out International Rescue who would be only too happy to help as most engineers will be busy on the internet looking at this site!
:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[airefresco]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Who says the most expensive one will have the best backup? The rest of your message is just not worth bothering with.

[Prince Vaillant]

Are you being sarcastic or dont you like witty banter?
So what you are saying is that a badly installed top branded system will be better than a correctly installed cheaper option?

[airefresco]

So what you are saying is that a badly installed top branded system will be better than a correctly installed cheaper option?

No, where did I even mention anything like that?

I said go for which company he feels is the most knowledgeable (i.e. seems to be the best) and which equipment he feels suits his need best. That very well could be the cheapest equipment. It´s all about circumstances really.

[paul_h]

All a/cs are made down to a price, they are cheaper now (even big name brands) than they have ever been before, yet with more functions etc. They will all eventually break down.
So go with the brand that has the best parts and service.

Eg here in australia, fujitsu and panasonic are great, parts are easy to get, so I'd recommend them.
But elsewhere those brands have bad support and parts availibility, so those people (edit: prefer) mitsubishi which has the better support in their local area, or toshiba.
Mitsubishi and toshiba aren't good for parts or support here. It's not that their products are worse, they are just harder to repair for me. And I'm not talking familiarity or preference, just plain bad service from their companies.

Oh, and airwell here sold rubbish and went bankrupt.

So go with the brand that has good support, ie big companies in your local area willing to install it, not just the cheapest price or the best salesman. I know you are basing your opinions on the reps you met, and that's fair enough, because that's all you have to go by. But have a look around your areas for the a/cs that most other people have, or find out who all the repair agents are, call a few local repair guys to see what brands they are interested in repairing, or call a few of the manufacturers offices if they are local for various brands and talk to them to see how helpful they are.

[airefresco]

What Paul said is exactly what I meant.

[acnerd]

Well said Paul_h :D

[paul_h]

What Paul said is exactly what I meant.
Yeah I knew that's what you meant which is why I added my 2c in this thread :D

[Alan 01]

hi caygie, did you pass onto your shortlist of suppliers the estimated heat loads i.e machines, ovens, fridges, staff levels, door policies (open or closed) and required temps for areas for produce or production?

these will make a difference to the duty required.

[Debonair Spain]

Daikin or Mitsubishi Electric for me any time if you have the money. Lower running costs and longer life span

[Prince Vaillant]

thats what i meant too! lol

[airefresco]

So why did you say the opposite?