has anybody decided which gas to go with to replace r22

[littleyapper]

WELL before the big stop of supplies of r22 comes has any body decided which drop in or retro gas they are going to use and which ones are better at h/t and l/t applications....cheers

[kiamaian]

I have installed a custom built heat pump hot water system underneath my home and as I am not a licensed gas handler I was forced to use propane. (Hychill HR22)

The sealed unit compressors in the system are new which I bought very cheaply because they were specifically designed to use ***** 22 with mineral oil.

I am heating water to sixty five degrees with head pressure reaching 315 psi. I like the refrigerant and I think in time it will displace the over priced and dangerous to the atomsphere refrigerants currently being used.

Initially I was reluctant to use propane because it is flammeable and I have taken the precaution of installing a gas sensor and alarm to warn me of any leakage of gas.

[Double V]

The buzz word in the market is Co2. I have also heard that Du Pont are on the point of a break through refrigerant as a replacement for R22 that is as efficient as Co2!Has any one heard anything about this?

Co2 would be dangerous for a market like ours but we still have another 9 years before we have to phase out in South Africa

[littleyapper]

yea thanks guys i am aware of both ... i was hoping for some input on these new "drop ins" and has any body used .... good ..bad..indifferent... any problems with oil etc ... l am looking at it from a general all round gas that guys might be willing to have in the service van... BRING BACK R12:)
would be very interested to hear if dupont have come up with that r22 replacement sounds a bit too good to be true .... but then the truth is out there

[Collie]

Hey, I recently did an R22 retro-fit on a condensing unit serving a closed control unit in a coms room and the engineer specified R407a, its temps and pressures are nearly indentical to that of R407c. As for oil problems, I dont know yet, I guess we will have to wait and see, but it was running pretty good when I left it.

[al]

Collie

Did you replace the oil and flush the system?

al

[Grizzly]

Hi Guys.
Dupont aka Isceon have a direct replacement MO29 (R422D).

Check it out via the link below.
It is not the complete answer.
But we have witnessed a lot of success.
Certainly on the larger systems like low temp chill or freezer rooms.
One observation is that it does have a certain cleaning effect.
So initial liquid drier changes are recommended.
Also it could be argued that R22 gas tight joints may leak.
But it is as easy to leak detect and repair gas tight joints.
It does not work on some LPR systems. Only because the oil floats at a different level to R22 within the refrigerant.
Making oil reclamation / recovery without modifications very difficult.

Generally it seems (so far) to be quite a good drop in!
cheers Grizzly

http://refrigerants.dupont.com/Suva/en_US/products/newblends/index.html

[El Padre]

Have looked into R417A and 422D as Grizzly suggests, the drop ins are very expensive at the moment!!
Will the expected increased demand push prices up or down?

My thoughts exactly!

Cheers

[Quality]

Hi Guys.
Dupont aka Isceon have a direct replacement MO29 (R422D).

Check it out via the link below.
It is not the complete answer.
But we have witnessed a lot of success.
Certainly on the larger systems like low temp chill or freezer rooms.
One observation is that it does have a certain cleaning effect.
So initial liquid drier changes are recommended.
Also it could be argued that R22 gas tight joints may leak.
But it is as easy to leak detect and repair gas tight joints.
It does not work on some LPR systems. Only because the oil floats at a different level to R22 within the refrigerant.
Making oil reclamation / recovery without modifications very difficult.

Generally it seems (so far) to be quite a good drop in!
cheers Grizzly

http://refrigerants.dupont.com/Suva/en_US/products/newblends/index.html

Isceon do offer replacement / retrofit refrigerants, colleages I work with have done similar types of work with success - Isceon now offer a So called 9 series of refrigerants that are suitable replacements for all R22 systems at all temps in most dx systems.

[koh]

Hi! Guys,

DuPont has launched their ISCEON MO series as drop-in solution for R22 retrofits. We have done several units (>150) so far using MO-59 (R417A) and system performs pretty well with slight energy improvement. Also the good thing is, it's mineral oil compatible. No flushing required.

Regards
Koh

[rac]

F gas Support in the UK has just published an 8 page guidance note which lists the pros and cons of some of the different alternatives and their suitabilty for different applications its called something like RAC Guide 08. Google DEFRA F Gas Support.

[Robotrob56]

Is there a drop-in replacement for
R-503 refrigerant ?

[Grizzly]

Is there a drop-in replacement for
R-503 refrigerant ?


Sorry Rob you have me confused there!
I have used replacements for R502.
But I have yet to discover R503???
Can you advise?
Cheers Grizzly:confused:

[bigfella]

The best replacement for R22 I have come across is the DuPont MO99 - it has only been around for a month or so. It is more efficient than the MO59 and has a lower temperature glide than MO59.

There is no way a man-made refrigerant could be as efficient as CO2. I would never see CO2 as a drop in for anything - the pipe sizing is significantly smaller, pressures are significantly higher, compressors different and condenses at -2 instead of +45!

[afn6353]

Trane unit (labeled as a 4 pound 2 ounce r22 charge) had leaking valves. Fixed leaks and replaced r22 with pure propane, but not sure what the optimum pressures should be. So far using trial and error adding an ounce at a time to the system which is operating fine, but I'd like it to run a little less. Anybody have any experience here?

[Classichvac]

Propane is a dangerous fit! There are better drop ins. Try Dupont SUVA NU22.

[Tony]

Hi afn6353


(labeled as a 4 pound 2 ounce r22 charge)

If using propane R290 - the charge should only be (4 pound 2 ounce) x 40% = 26.4 oz (0.748 Kg).

If using propane, just ensure you follow all the rules, i.e. no sparking pressure switches, ventilation etc.

[BOCman]

Visit a gas providers website for details on the most popular retrofit gases for R22. There is no one size fits all , so we do recommend you talk to an expert (Ask Barry) or your local HRP store in the UK to chose the right alternative for your application / temperature.

[Grizzly]

Visit a gas providers website for details on the most popular retrofit gases for R22. There is no one size fits all , so we do recommend you talk to an expert (Ask Barry) or your local HRP store in the UK to chose the right alternative for your application / temperature.

Sorry to be a grouch BOC man.
But if everyone "promotes" their Companies There would be a free for all.

So whilst your sentiments are honourable.
What you are doing is not!!
If you wish to advertise pay for it like anyone else!
:(

[nevgee]

Well said Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

The best replacement for R22 I have come across is the DuPont MO99 - it has only been around for a month or so. It is more efficient than the MO59 and has a lower temperature glide than MO59.

There is no way a man-made refrigerant could be as efficient as CO2. I would never see CO2 as a drop in for anything - the pipe sizing is significantly smaller, pressures are significantly higher, compressors different and condenses at -2 instead of +45!
Sorry bigfella, CO2 is not a good refrigerant, sure it has it benifits, but do not be sucked in by the eco hype surrounding it.
As far as condensing, it goes trans-critical just over 30+C and 70 odd Bar (can not remember exact numbers,) Which means it can condense below this numbers.
Perhaps you mean at the same working pressure at which R22 condenses at 45C, CO2 would condense at -2C

[BOCman]

Sorry to be a grouch BOC man.
But if everyone "promotes" their Companies There would be a free for all.

So whilst your sentiments are honourable.
What you are doing is not!!
If you wish to advertise pay for it like anyone else!
:(

Worth drawing a distinction between 'promotion' and well meant support and advice.

I'm sure any refrigerant supplier will be happy to help you work your way through what is not a simple subject. ( Maybe even one who's won industry awards for their campaign on phase-out !)

[headgear]

The best replacement for R22 I have come across is the DuPont MO99 - it has only been around for a month or so. It is more efficient than the MO59 and has a lower temperature glide than MO59.

There is no way a man-made refrigerant could be as efficient as CO2. I would never see CO2 as a drop in for anything - the pipe sizing is significantly smaller, pressures are significantly higher, compressors different and condenses at -2 instead of +45!
On old type York J type compressors there is no oil return. We have had to go back to R22 for the time being.

[Tullyvernon]

BRING BACK R12:)



Now your talkin!!!!

[Grizzly]

Now your talkin!!!!


You do like to try and wind people up- tully.

If common sense had prevailed they would not of been banned in the first place.
Just the bad practises that led to so much being released.
Scream and shout as much as you like *****s are Dead.

Never mind eh!
At least our leak checking skills are improving!

Hows Henry!
Grizzly

[lowcool]

had a seminar with local supplier and wholesaler,it seems we are being screwed by dupont again.they have come up with three drop ins r417 being more generic but not good for low temperature applications,me thinks we may be forced this way before they release a low temp solution.will have to wait and see.

[Tullyvernon]

You do like to try and wind people up- tully.

If common sense had prevailed they would not of been banned in the first place.
Just the bad practises that led to so much being released.
Scream and shout as much as you like *****s are Dead.

Never mind eh!
At least our leak checking skills are improving!

Hows Henry!
Grizzly

Henreys not great tbh! recovered about 14kg of R410 and has been making a wile racket since, think his filter drier is blocked!

[Andy]

Hi Guys:)

I know most people are worrying about HCFC replacement, we are trying one particular gas at the moment;) I'm sure it will work, but not anything as well as R22.

Watch the liquid line sizes with these dropin's. Any 4 series gas requires far more volume in liquid form. This will mean less capacity from the evaporators, bigger liquid lines, larger receivers and a bigger expansion valve oriface.

And they are called dropins:rolleyes:

What happens when we have to replace the HFC gases:confused:

[yinmorrison]

Thought I would check out who had any patents on R22 replacements and came up with these for your info.

Seems one is too large to upload however it is held by Stephen Pearson of Star Refrigeration and looks to be the closest I could find , called RX3 for R22 and RX2 for R12

[old gas bottle]

The buzz word in the market is Co2. I have also heard that Du Pont are on the point of a break through refrigerant as a replacement for R22 that is as efficient as Co2!Has any one heard anything about this?

Co2 would be dangerous for a market like ours but we still have another 9 years before we have to phase out in South Africa

i thought C02 was inefficient as a refrigerant,useing a lot more energy to drive it compared to present types,planet friendley untill you have to plug it in,:)back to ammonia unless a looming miricle cure arrives,

[Andy]

i thought C02 was inefficient as a refrigerant,useing a lot more energy to drive it compared to present types,planet friendley untill you have to plug it in,:)back to ammonia unless a looming miricle cure arrives,


Hello Old Gas Bottle:)

yes from what I've seen with commercial plant. No with low temperature and volitile secondary industrial plant.

Denmans also used subcritical plant cooled with bore water to create an efficient plant.

The only way I see it working on commercial plant is to use heat recovery off the gas cooler make low cost hot water and if it can be scaled down cheaply an expander to capture the energy at the pressure drop point of the gas cooler as it changes the gas to liquid. Adding the return energy to the compressor shaft.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[old gas bottle]

well said andy,:) streight over my head that one,as were install and repairs as opposed to development, my concerns are that at the last seminar a week ago on refrigerants it was stated that all common refrigerants in use R410 down to R407C ,zerotropics,anything with a ODP,GWP etc etc,was under iminent threat by the EU and a new generation of refrigerants must be found and quickley ,:eek: the options available at present are CO2 and NH3, so after that i,am in the dark the same as anyone else but would not be supprised to see a "wonder gas"appear £££££££££££££ a kilo,:(

[Blueboy]

I have use R417a on Three Water Chillers - Loss of Duty around 12% when measured at full load- Energy saving around the same.

I have also use the same gas on two large capacity ( 350 HP) Blast chillers- Less impressive - duty loss could not be measured easily but it added approximately 20% to the pull down time for 1 tonne of pie from +4c to -25c. I guess you might say 20% but the energy savings more or less matched the performance-

We have recently tried R422 on a large capacity water chiller, however we have no results yet but early indications are that performance has not really changed energy is down

[grizwold50]

r503 is an ultra low temperature refrigerant which is no in use. you will have to use either r-23 or the lasest on offer is r-508b which is very very expensive about £200 per kg also you can use isceon 89, but i have on used it once on an -40 plasma freezer.

kindest regards graham

[gonefishing]

I did a retrofit on an Ingredient Water Chiller at a Bakery about
8 years back. Used ICOR NU22. The system was a 50ton open
drive Carrier Machine running at 30° f. Worked out real well.
I would use NU22 in any project I came across. You might
do a little research on ICOR.

Also, I have heard that Copeland will be in bed with Dupont
on any approved refrigerants for retrofit. Might consider that
in you thought process.............

GF

[D.D.KORANNE]

In EU a lot of work one is being done on R744 . COKE has announced replacement of all their display units by 2015 .

[ozfrige]

Thank goodnes the Chinese still churn out R22 based air conditioners window type & split. Thats why i buy Chinese AC, Seen to many prob with split ACs & R410 gas & leaks with temps outside 40 Deg +

[Bhagwan Harani]

Ammonia will be final answers for open type compressors.

[Latte]

http://www.tecumsehcoolproducts.com/inside/File_attachments/Service%20Guidelines%20HCFC%20R22%20to%20HFC%20Blends-RD-0003-E.pdf

Interesting link about R22 to 417 by Tecumseh

[jcook1982]

I think soon we should HC Refrigerants come into play. By 2012 the phase out of many common refrigerants will happen and we will need newer replacements. HC Seems to be the way the market is looking.

[Trevor_1]

Hi,

Supplies of R22 (either Virgin or recycled) are nearly impossible to find in the UK already.

We've just completed our first project to replace R22 in a 40kW Daikin VRV system using R422D as a drop in replacement.

Simple procedure, remove old gas, pressure test, vac out and re-gas. Results look great, operating very close to original design.

[BOCman]

Hi,

Supplies of R22 (either Virgin or recycled) are nearly impossible to find in the UK already.

We've just completed our first project to replace R22 in a 40kW Daikin VRV system using R422D as a drop in replacement.

Simple procedure, remove old gas, pressure test, vac out and re-gas. Results look great, operating very close to original design.

You shouldn't be able to buy virgin or recycled legally. Only reclaimed R22 can be sold. Great to hear of your successful retrofit to R422D. :D

[Fri3Oil System]

Hi,

In Europe, regarding E.R. 1005/2009, you can only buy/sell regenerated R-22 until end of 2014.
Until then, you can get all R-22 you need for maintenances (leakages) from the existing plants... thousands and thousands of tons are waiting in the plants already.
You only need to recover and recycle it. Then you are able to replace leaks on your own installs/clients.

Regarding the gases to go to, we recomend to go to the "comodities", those common gases to all manufacturers, which are giving a little better performances than the "drop in" ones. You only need to clean properly the installations, and eliminate 100% of MO. Then you can quietly pass to HFC.

HC are flammable aren't they?
I am still a Rookie poster and so I cannot give you at the moment a link to our "retrofit procedure", when I can, I will pass you a nice apporach of this subject, considering other solutions of the industry.

[charlie n]

The buzz word in the market is Co2. I have also heard that Du Pont are on the point of a break through refrigerant as a replacement for R22 that is as efficient as Co2!Has any one heard anything about this?

Co2 would be dangerous for a market like ours but we still have another 9 years before we have to phase out in South Africa

Dupont is always on the verge of finding new and more expensive ways to serve the industry (read "the shareholders"). There's nothing dangerous about CO2. Get educated, it's going to be the refrigerant of choice in supermarkets & soon will be a god choice in larger systems.

[multisync]

is anyone still using R22. We have stocks here (of reclaimed) and it's gathering dust..

[Fri3Oil System]

Hi there,
For European colleagues, I recomend you to check the following link, in which you can find interesting info about E.R. 1005/2009, concerning R-22 change, and E.R. 842/2006, regarding f-gases leakages control.
www.fri3oilsystem.com/june.zip (http://www.fri3oilsystem.com/june.zip)

Hope you find it interesting

[damo567]

Have looked into R417A and 422D as Grizzly suggests, the drop ins are very expensive at the moment!!
Will the expected increased demand push prices up or down?

My thoughts exactly!

Cheers

I have just bought some 417A and it was significantly cheaper than R22R by about £50 for 12.5Kg

[Fri3Oil System]

The main problem with those drop ins is not the price, or even the lower COP, but the poor miscilibility with the MO in the plants... you will check it with the time

[hoor-kah]

is anyone still using R22. We have stocks here (of reclaimed) and it's gathering dust..
Hi multisync, yeap we are using R-22. How much R-22R do you have on stock ?

I'm working now to make a plan to somehow handle this whole R-22 "thing" in my company.

At the moment I can see two ways:
1. use some drop-in gas (R417A or R422D)
2. keep using the R-22/R-22R and replace the whole machine in 2014. The machine will be planned EOL that time.

I read many many articles and forums but telling the truth I'm a little bit confused. Not sure which is the better solution from above two.

Can somebody advise me ???

THX Gabor

[cadillackid]

there will always be lots of Old Kit out in the real world... so it seems beneficial for a good R-22 drop-in to be developed.. consumers and businesses just dont have the money to replace the old stuff when it goes kabonkers...

there are still residential A/C units from the 1960s out there in people's homes that still work and probably will for years...

I often work on commercial kit that was installed in the late 80s.. with still mostly original compressors...

the economy for sure in the USA doesnt support people spending thousands to put in new systems, esp if the old one quits just because a valve leaked and the gas went out...
-Christopher