warehouse

[acvr]

Hello its my first time in the chat
by the way my english its not so good so if i make a mistake i'm sorry

Basically I got a trouble, I work in research and developing projects, my boss gave me a new task and it’s about getting some basic information to build a refrigerated warehouse, he wants to make it of 1500m2 cause that’s what some friends of his recommend.
I don’t know anything about this I hope I could get some help and tip where to find this info and maybe some recommendations to help me start.
The warehouse its meant for all purpose of frozen food, the tempeture of my country its around 30 celciums, I think I need info for the doors, the panels, the perfect tempeture, the storage, software’s, personal and other stuff I actually don’t know
I appreciate all the help I could get and thanks for your time
My email is aletate@hotmail.com, i gave this because i dont know how to get in this conversation for the next time

[lowcool]

i would start by refering this to reputable commercial refrigeration companies,if you make a boo boo it could cost alot of money to rectify

[acvr]

Yes I understand what you are saying and you are correct, the thing is in my country when you don’t know about what you are doing all the companies you ask for help they play you, so first I want to gather some info and knowledge so they don’t play the company.
Actually reading from this page help me a lot I have been reading since 6 pm and it’s almost 2 am, but I still need a lot of info.
The thing is my boss has an engineer corporation that goes from international representation, to his own construction of equipments and services.
A few weeks ago he decide to enter to this new business (refrigerate warehouse), but before going with the consulting we need to know a little bet about to protect.

[acvr]

I hope someone answer to at least parts of it, I am going to write and try to make the perfect warehouse for my reference and everybody that what’s to make one or use it like a thesis (that is another thing I am doing, killing to birds at the same time J)
I appreciate when the question are answer to put the number so nobody gets lost


In my country there’s a huge need of cold especially for food, so I don’t know which area it’s more profit to refrigerate from food and which one has more demand. Knowing this we could know more about the size of the warehouse and its freezers. At these moments we are thinking about 3 freezers of 1500 mt2 and 1 cooling tunnel.

(It could be more or less depending of the research).


Why is the ammoniac more dangerous than the *****? I heard that both are toxic? Is it more dangerous because the ammoniac leaks?
How does the ammoniac alarm or sensors work?
Whats the difference between freezer and chiller?
Before connecting the truck to the dock would it help to put a portable refrigerator to cool it down? Why?
What’s the difference between direct cooling systems and indirect?

Direct cooling is when you use refrigerant in your evaporators within cold room - this is "must" for low temperature rooms below -18C
Indirect cooling is when you use primary refrigerant ammonia/***** to cool down glycol (we call that primary refrigeration circuit) and then you pump cooled glycol through your room coolers to cool your goods - applicable for your chillers and for A/C rooms.
Benefits of indirect cooling are: less refrigerant in primary circuit, less valves, connections i.e. less places for possible leaks, more safe.
Bad of indirect: little bit higher installation and running costs due to double cooling circuits.
(This info right or something is missing)


What is FIFO?
What tempeture should be use outside the freezers but in the warehouse?

If you keep the docks at about 35°F (1.6°C) to 45°F (7.2°C) this will remove a large percentage of the moisture as a liquid on the coils in the dock area. These evaporators should be blowing air towards the dock doors.
(This info right or something is missing)


Why do we have to unfreeze some process and places?
It’s better to use hot gas o electricity to unfreeze?

Hot gas
(This info right or something is missing)


If the warehouse its build underground at least part of it would the energy cost would be cheaper?
There are 3 kind of freezer? Why? What about pharmaceutics?

One for vegetable, eggs, wood. One for meat, fish and chicken. One for fast food
(This info right or something is missing)


Why the doors have to be of rubber and go up and down and not to the sides? Why can’t it be a sliding door or a double door like the submarines?
Which doors got the best technology and which has the best price and good technology?
How the humidity does plays in this game? And what does it affects?
Which brands of stock picker truck or pallet truck are consider the best?
How much space between stand should leave so the pallet truck can turn around?
How could I optimize the space of the freezer, it’s there a free program or some calculus that could help me to put the stands?
Which stands are better? Which dimension fit all? Witch materials are good for it?
What’s the perfect height for the freezer?

2002 ASHRAE Refrigeration Handbook: 8.5 to 10.5 m
(This info right or something is missing)


How much space should I leave between the boxes (paletas) in the stand that are in the freezer?

a) 5 cm floor to box, the space for the pallet truck to get the box and 5 cm to the roof
b) 5 % of the total volume of the boxes
c) 10cm between the lines of boxes, a 25cm gap from the walls and a 75cm gap between the ceiling panel
(This info right or something is missing)



Could I use the cold air of the refrigerate tunnel (when I finish using it) to cold something at the warehouse?
What is that about cleaning with ozone water? What for? And why this type of water?
Most of freezers have 100% air, why others need 98% of nitrogen or other material?
What’s a panel? How are they build? Which foam its better? How do you hang them from the roof? Why not make a structure from the floor to hold it? Why put on top of the floor panel concrete?
How does it work freezing by gas at a lot of pressure? Why? Should be more expensive?
Does the cold affects to put a RDF system?
Is it true that you could say that 1 m2 needs 500 BTU approximate?
How much it’s a ton of cold?
If somebody has something to add I will appreciate

Thanks for helping in anything you can and helping other people with this question, I will keep in touch, to tell how the project its going, to ask knew things and to a port others things that mite help us all to be better engineers and business men’s and women.

[acvr]

each poit is a number with a question y dont know why it didnt publish :(

[acvr]

I will put agai my huge cuestion with numbers
I hope someone answer to at least parts of it, I am going to write and try to make the perfect warehouse for my reference and everybody that what’s to make one or use it like a thesis (that is another thing I am doing, killing to birds at the same time J)
I appreciate when the question are answer to put the number so nobody gets lost


1) In my country there’s a huge need of cold especially for food, so I don’t know which area it’s more profit to refrigerate from food and which one has more demand. Knowing this we could know more about the size of the warehouse and its freezers. At these moments we are thinking about 3 freezers of 1500 mt2 and 1 cooling tunnel.

(It could be more or less depending of the research).

2) Why is the ammoniac more dangerous than the *****? I heard that both are toxic? Is it more dangerous because the ammoniac leaks? How does the ammoniac alarm or sensors work? its their one for the *****?


3) Whats the difference between freezer and chiller?
4) Before connecting the truck to the dock would it help to put a portable refrigerator to cool it down? Why?
5) What’s the difference between direct cooling systems and indirect?

Direct cooling is when you use refrigerant in your evaporators within cold room - this is "must" for low temperature rooms below -18C
Indirect cooling is when you use primary refrigerant ammonia/***** to cool down glycol (we call that primary refrigeration circuit) and then you pump cooled glycol through your room coolers to cool your goods - applicable for your chillers and for A/C rooms.
Benefits of indirect cooling are: less refrigerant in primary circuit, less valves, connections i.e. less places for possible leaks, more safe.
Bad of indirect: little bit higher installation and running costs due to double cooling circuits.
(This info right or something is missing)


6) What is FIFO?
7) What tempeture should be use outside the freezers but in the warehouse?

If you keep the docks at about 35°F (1.6°C) to 45°F (7.2°C) this will remove a large percentage of the moisture as a liquid on the coils in the dock area. These evaporators should be blowing air towards the dock doors.
(This info right or something is missing)


8) Why do we have to unfreeze some process and places?
9) It’s better to use hot gas o electricity to unfreeze?

Hot gas
(This info right or something is missing)


10) If the warehouse its build underground at least part of it would the energy cost would be cheaper?
11) There are 3 kind of freezer? Why? What about pharmaceutics?

One for vegetable, eggs, wood. One for meat, fish and chicken. One for fast food
(This info right or something is missing)


12) Why the doors have to be of rubber and go up and down and not to the sides? Why can’t it be a sliding door or a double door like the submarines?
13) Which doors got the best technology and which has the best price and good technology?
14) How the humidity does plays in this game? And what does it affects?
15) Which brands of stock picker truck or pallet truck are consider the best?
16) How much space between stand should leave so the pallet truck can turn around?
17) How could I optimize the space of the freezer, it’s there a free program or some calculus that could help me to put the stands?
18) Which stands are better? Which dimension fit all? Witch materials are good for it?
19) What’s the perfect height for the freezer?

2002 ASHRAE Refrigeration Handbook: 8.5 to 10.5 m
(This info right or something is missing)


20) How much space should I leave between the boxes (paletas) in the stand that are in the freezer?

a)5 cm floor to box, the space for the pallet truck to get the box and 5 cm to the roof
b)5 % of the total volume of the boxes
c)10cm between the lines of boxes, a 25cm gap from the walls and a 75cm gap between the ceiling panel
(This info right or something is missing)



21) Could I use the cold air of the refrigerate tunnel (when I finish using it) to cold something at the warehouse?
22) What is that about cleaning with ozone water? What for? And why this type of water?
23) Most of freezers have 100% air, why others need 98% of nitrogen or other material?
24) What’s a panel? How are they build? Which foam its better? How do you hang them from the roof? Why not make a structure from the floor to hold it? Why put on top of the floor panel concrete?
25) How does it work freezing by gas at a lot of pressure? Why? Should be more expensive?
26) Does the cold affects to put a RDF system?
27) Is it true that you could say that 1 m2 needs 500 BTU approximate?
28) How much it’s a ton of cold?
29) If somebody has something to add I will appreciate

Thanks for helping in anything you can and helping other people with this question, I will keep in touch, to tell how the project its going, to ask knew things and to a port others things that mite help us all to be better engineers and business men’s and women.

[lowcool]

no.29 read post after your first.if not jump in the deep end of the pool then you will find out if you can swim.subs have hatches and use skyhooks to suspend ceilng panels over 5 metres long.thats what r&d is about.start from the beginning with proposed layout and heat calculations and work from there.sorry to sound rude but some of your questions are stupid look up and find what a panel is,a ton of cold is a ton of cold or pigeon feathers which is lighter?stock picker truck your dreamin the sheep would freeze and you only need enough room to turn depending on the amount of stock and dogs to drive em.witch materials are definitely good for it.
help moderator im out of here!

[acvr]

thanks lowcool, if somebody could be of more assistance, I don't need all the question just a few will help me out

[Brian_UK]

You are trying to run before you can even crawl.

I would suggest that, as a researcher, you would be more productive if you researched good quality design engineers who would advise you more precisely and save you a lot of money.

[acvr]

thanks but my boss its not giving me that option at this moment, but i will stop buttering everyone

[nike123]

6) What is FIFO?



First in, first out.

[Yuri B.]

Hello Acvr.
Thread as a starting point of dissertation will be too cumbesome for its scope. I would initiate a number of discussions, starting with, let's say, " From what begins a coldstore", then, maybe, "What refrigerant best for a coldstore in Venezuela," etc.
But you will not do away - in no way - without a good textbook on a coldstore design. And the forum will only assist you here and there on this or that issue unclear or too difficult to understand.

[acvr]

OK that's great, to start i got to know how big should be the warehouse, freezers and i could do that depending in what i am going to store.
So i will like to know which merchandise has a big demand for cold and you charge more for freezing it, or does the cost of cold its the same for all the merchandise?

[lowcool]

for a start your slab wiil have to be ventilated or heated on the under side.design and erect your room from 12 inch panels if it is exposed to the weather and put a roof over the top.lay a slab and construct plant room with another slab adjaent to fit condenser.problem is you dont know how big to make it because you dont know what design usage you want,ie blast freeze,pull down freeze or storage freeze.you must establish how many tonnes/day at what entering temperature,yes charge more for pull down especially if blasted.

[acvr]

OK that's great lowcool thanks

[mfakazi]

Hi ACVR
I hope im not being rude but i think you are being over ambitious.Based on your questions I don't think its possible for you to go ahead with this project.An engineer with expirience will stiil find this project challenging and with due respect basically your questions are too basic(apprentice level).So as moderator said I think you find a refrigeration company and you will learn a lot from that expirience.

Once you find that specialist company they will assign a consultant who will do all the calculations and you can ask him a lot of questions then I think this forum will become very to you.

I apologise if I sounded a ****y but I'm trying help cos if you get it wrong which you will it cost a lot to fix it, may be a career.

Thank you

[acvr]

1) A good product to start is all type of meat living out food coming from the water. Cause their conservation freezing temperature and humidity its a like in most of the cases
2) The ammonia its not more dangerous than the ***** (commercial name of dupon), by the cost of the equipments usually ammonia its choose for big installations and ***** for smaller ones, a pretty good thing from ammonia its when is likings it drops a smell so smell sensor could easily know



3) Freezer its what people use to keep really low temperature lower of 30 F and refrigerator cold temperature but higher temperature of 0 F. Chillers are just the air conditioner of the house but for industries and buildings.
4) The trucks merchandise has to come refrigerated or freeze
5) Direct cooling is when you use refrigerant in your evaporators within cold room - this is "must" for low temperature rooms below
Indirect cooling is when you use primary refrigerant ammonia/***** to cool down glycol, water or other cheaper refrigerant and then you pump cooled water through your room coolers to cool your goods



6) First in first out, its not the only system but more common

7) If you keep the docks at about 35°F (1.6°C) to 45°F (7.2°C) this will remove a large percentage of the moisture as a liquid on the coils in the dock area. These evaporators should be blowing air towards the dock doors.



8) because they got ice and that way they can't work or could be dangerous causing break of materials or accidents
9) It depends of the application and the place



10) Yes, but the initial cost of the construction will be more expensive, could carry filtration, roots and other type of problems.
11) Each food has its own temperature for conservation, so we cant divide them by just 3 categories. But in general the ones were tell they are a like, missing other categories



12) Commonly there are 2 types of doors the vertical that goes on the docks, the horizontals that are use all the hi lift and people inside the refrigerated area. At the horizontal doors to control humidity and other factors could use 2 doors making a small room and deshumidification, could also use rubber, air curtain or both rubber and air
13)
14) food: if its to high for the ASHRAE recommendation will burn them and if its to low it will take water from the food any ay it will discompose waster the food.
Equipment: when the water freeze it blocks important parts of the equipment and their functionality.
An them is the accident, and parts break cause the ice at the floor, racks and others
15) Toyota, hyster, most of them are the same.
16) That depends of the hi lift, but if it max load is 2204.623 lb, it could work with 9.843
17) I don't know any free program but basically the aisle should be parallel to the longest face of the freezer. And their are different types of racks so that depends. For conservation most people use the conventional, doble deep and if the location is very expensive the ones they move and you open the aisle were you need to put the merchandise
18) Galvanize (30% more expensive) and painted with protection (humidity has to be control)
19) It depends, but the higher is 8.5 to 10.5 m (34.449 feet)



20) Depends of the food but 10cm between the lines of boxes, a 25cm gap from the walls and a 75cm gap between the ceiling panel should be ok



21) Yes it could be use
22) this is for the cleaning process for manufacturers, there are other type of disinfectants.
23) Depends what is going to be conservation but for most conservation process is normal air
24) Its like the walls of the refrigerator or freezer they try to keep temperature from coming in or out. For a refrigerated warehouse usually use metal (different types) from both side and in the center different types of foam. The most common foams are EPS (cheap), PUR (normal price), PIR (expensive). they are hang of different ways, commonly hang to another roof. The panel of the floor has concrete to protect it from the weight of the racks and the hi lift
25) This should be done by the manufacture, and is more expensive cause the use of the gas and special machines. Actually don't know a lot about this
26) No they are perfect for this cause they work by signal and not reading from a code that could be hide by its position or by a layer of ice
27) That's a rule of thumb for house or building air conditioner, if the room is fully close 300 BTU but if has a lot of window and people cumming in and out go for 900 BTU
28) 12000 btu/hr
29) if somebody want I have made a design of a refrigerated warehouse in Spanish explaining the basics of how to build it and basic calculations, this I am using it to train people the other real papers they are own by the company.

The answer given hear ware made in less that 10 minutes very basic and simple some times people don't need more than that, this would had been great for me a long time ago.

Hope people will start punting more questions here, solutions and experience about refrigerated warehouse so we could all give us a hand. Thanks for the people who answer a few of my questions.

Books recommended: for the refrigeration part their is nothig like the ASHRAE the other books I know they are from Spanish authors but very good, for the warehouse dissing and material handling its the Tompkins, Sule with does two should be good and of course there are other pretty good books for this, I just said the ones I usually use to consult.

[nike123]

The answer given hear ware made in less that 10 minutes


Did you got these answers in 10 min after 1 year search or you got answers in 10 min and waited 1 year to report that you got these answers 1 year ago.:D:D

[acvr]

Got this answer and others after a year. Remember about this web page and post them in 10 minutes, cause I thought it could be useful to someone like me a year ago. The 10 minutes its just the time it will take to someone with knowledge at this area to help someone