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Peter_1
25-06-2009, 08:19 PM
There seems to be something going on in the Eu commission to penalize all the gases with a GWP >1800 or >2000 (they are not sure about the correct level)
You should pay in the future some sort of environment taxes on all these gases.

>1800 is almost all our commercial gases, except R134a.

Is this perhaps the reason why Bitzer developed already a new R134a screw, specially for R134a chillers?

We will see in the near future a growth for R134a machines and we will perhaps see a ban of R410a.

Anyone heard about these rumours?

frank
25-06-2009, 08:26 PM
Can't say that I have Peter.

Only today, I have been on a "Training Course" with Mitsubishi where the emphasis was on the new F-Gas regs etc. and the R22 phase out.

This item was not even mentioned.

How and when did you get to know about it?

al
25-06-2009, 08:30 PM
Peter

According to last sundays english times newspaper this would appear to be the case, by jumping so quickly to ban R22 they have unleashed new gasses which have a very high GWP, like 410a and i believe 404a.

Tesco are trialling replacement gasses for 404a so there must be something in it?

reckon we'll all switch to ammonia!!

al

Peter_1
25-06-2009, 09:37 PM
This will mean a lot for us, a complete change of how we work, even more than the F-gas regulations we have now.

Peter_1
25-06-2009, 09:39 PM
...by jumping so quickly to ban R22 they have unleashed new gasses which have a very high GWP, like 410a and i b
As far as I've heard, that's the reason about the discussion about 1800 or 2000 GWP.

al
25-06-2009, 11:08 PM
If those muppets in the eu get their way we will be looking at costly replacements, apparantly the debate is closed on global warming/climate change:confused:

al

Magoo
26-06-2009, 02:28 AM
Peter-1
you are on to it, the Copenhagen protocol is on the horizon. It would seem that R404a is up for the chop. With a GWP of 3780 compared to CO2, by comparison R22 is 1700. Next thing will be the TEWI [ total effective warming inpact.] the basis of the carbon taxes.
Try and get a copy of the Bitzer Refrigerant report #15 edition, makes for scary reading.
I did bring this all up in an earlier post.

magoo

lowcool
26-06-2009, 03:02 AM
answers my question about latest co2 rack in local supermarket,couldnt figure why bitzer didnt use 507 or such,but was aware of reducing the amount of refrigerant in systems,still doesnt make much sense given power requirements to run the set up let alone costs to manufacture and if the gen set fails during a blackout you lose the bulk of co2 anyway,maybe this co2 doesnt contribute to greenhouse effect just like chlorine in water doesnt harm ozone layer

Magoo
26-06-2009, 03:10 AM
Lowcool, R507a has a GWP of 3850 compared to CO2. So is on the no not list.
magoo

Peter_1
26-06-2009, 05:58 AM
Frank, seems that something is true, we say here, where there's smoke, there's a fire.
This should mean an even more stringent control of the F-gases. Boy oh boy, thought we had seen already a lot of B...s in th F-gas and it becomes even worse!!

Peter_1
26-06-2009, 05:59 AM
I did bring this all up in an earlier post.
magoo
Magoo, where's your post, I'm interested in it!!

Peter_1
26-06-2009, 06:29 AM
The reason for 1800 should mean that R410a should be avoided or not.
If the line should be set to 1800, then we have a problem.
For r404aand R507 there's anyhow a problem (>3000)

lowcool
26-06-2009, 06:54 AM
had a chat to the bitzer rep today,the stuff of the future will be HFO-1234yf and drops straight in a 134 system,commercial application testing looks promising but its flammable also.auto application has passed.no alternative for low temp gas yet but can expect substantial price increase (60-70%tax) when carbon trading bizzo comes in.i found the refrigerant report no.15 on the bitzer site,its definitely worth the read.from what i can gather their is a bit of a turn around with r22 as its gwp may offset its odp,i wonder who has their finger in the pie this time,an emission is an emmission might be time to take up amonia

Voyager
26-06-2009, 07:28 PM
An environment tax on GWP > 1800 ?

And what will they do with this tax ?

Are they going to spend it on some secret giant vaccum and filtering plant that will remove all the GWP gases from the atmosphere ?

Those idiots in the EU (unelected commissioners who can't be fired by us)
should spend their taxes emigrating to Outer Mongolia.

Magoo
27-06-2009, 04:19 AM
Hi Peter_1,
I started a thread back in 08/June 09 in refrigerants topic, in a vane attempt to get our industry on the page for what is happening.
You must get the Bitzer refrigerant report # 15., it is in your neck of the world. Makes for scary reading, we have a responsibility to keep our clients informed of what is impending. The huge impact on clients will be the carbon taxes, covered under topic TEWI[ total warming impact] that calculates a CO2 tonnage factor, starting point here in Australasia is $10 to $40 a ton per year.
With your background and influence with regulation issues, I would have thought you would be up to speed. But I also understand that Europe is going down the tract to ethane/ metane / propane mixes, ie F-gas [fart gas], great for the enviroment not too good for us mere humans, particually fridge techs., had a disaster here recently where a coldstore complex changed out system for propane, but without all the safety stuff.... result two Fireman dead, coldstore burnt to the ground,willful murder/manslaughter charges pending in the courts.
magoo

Magoo
27-06-2009, 04:34 AM
Voyager,
The carbon tax will go into the consolidated funds so as to pick up the costs of the "Wall Street " screw up. And those same mongels are still in business.
The GWP is a factor only, as in higher the factor the higher the tax, CO2 has a factor of 1, all else is a multiplier. Good game if I was the manager.

Peter_1
27-06-2009, 06:47 AM
...
With your background and influence with regulation issues, I would have thought you would be up to speed. ....

Problem is that I don't have the time to read and answer all the posts here; it should become a full time job. ;)

Peter_1
27-06-2009, 06:49 AM
Magoo, this is your post you started I suppose http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19149