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Moeller
12-07-2004, 09:12 AM
Hello,

if you had heard something about the Refrigerants Naturally Conference in Brüssel http://www.refrigerantsnaturally.com then some customers are asking you, about?

I am searching for standard products:

1.
Low temp. refrigerator and ice-boxes up to -80°C (Different ranges from +4°C, +2°C, -5°C, -20°C and -80°C).
Normally used with R403B / R23 or R507 and R134a.
You know a supplier of those refrigerators with natural refrigerants?

2.
I am searching for small plants 10-30 kW for rooms -4°C and -30°C.
Are there running plants with natural refrigerants (CO2 / R290)?

3.
I am searching for Split System Air Conditioners up to 2-5 kW.
Also with natural refrigerants.


The background is, that a customer want only natural refrigerants, but have a lot of small refrigerators (-80°C) up to 600 pcs. and have a lot of small low temp. rooms (-30°C). All systems are running now with HFC-refrigerants.
Actually, the systems are at different places, so it is not possible to create one or two bigger one.

Anybody an idea?

Thanks for help.

regards
O. Möller

jg/oz
14-07-2004, 10:09 AM
Friend,
Suggest to contact DTI Denmark ( Danish Technology Institute), ask for Dr.Frank Elefsen, he will be able to help you
for -80 Degr C cabinets, -20/30 rooms is no problem with either
CO2/propane cascade , many built recently.

AC systems DeLongi Italy has a whole range in your Cap
range with Propane. You can buy them in Germany and Netherlands ( IBK Netherlands).

I think with so many equipment it would be interesting for an Institute like yours to have a riskassessment made by an appropriate Risk-asssesment Consulting agency and see how
most efficient ly extisting equipment can/could be retrofitted to Natural Fluids. If flammability can be prevented HCs could be used without any problem in all applications mentioned.

jg/oz

NB EN 378 should give you a guide line also BS 4434 ( i think) will help AS/NZ 1677 part 2 will help.
Acrib UK has "Guidelines for the use of Hydrocarbon refrigerants in Static Refrigeration and airconditioning systems

Moeller
14-07-2004, 08:03 PM
Hello,

thanks for reply. In Meantime, I asked Linde, if they had some systems running. But they did not. I was very surprised, because who else should build, if not Linde. So I am glad to read from you, that there are no big problems to build a System for 30 kW with roomtemp. -30°C. But the german market seemed to be empty of suppliers. The answer is only: Only Danfoss and Bitzer delivering parts.
So, my next question:
What we need basically for a ref.system for a cold room of 30 kW by -30°C. And would you creat a cascade or one stage?
What is common for you? I think one stage with propane would be simple?

Would you work with a brain in the coldroom (non persons) or with propane directly?

You see, a lot of questions. I am at the beginning of my research and will inform you about the process.

regards

edit:
Do you really believe, that we can use the current refrigerators and change only the refrigerant? Or I understood something wrong?

jg/oz
17-07-2004, 08:40 AM
Friend Olav,
if you have nobody in the coldrooms most of the time and are aware of the design conditions of HC refrigerant it could well be that HC ( propane for this application is possible) if eg the system is modified to have a minimal charge and when a catastrofic leak occurs ( total charge released in 5 minutes) and stays below Lower Flammability limit eg 2 % than JCs could
be satisfactory used.

Therewould also be a posibility using R723 ( a mixture of
NH3 and dimethylether 60/40) which would do well in your case
A contatc for this application could be Frigopol in Austria who already made a number of plants with this fluid.
Also Google R723 and you will come to ILK Dresden ( Uni)

Also go to ( by phone) to Dr Elefsen Denmark and tell him from a frien in Aussi land and he will definately help you.
Have you a number( 10 or more of this sort of applications or
equipment to be re-built, what is original equipment USA????

Which refrigerants used R13B1, R13 ???????? ( -80)
R134a, R404a (-30) AC R22 ????
Please explain.

jg/oz

Moeller
21-07-2004, 08:08 AM
Hello,

thanks for information.
Next week I will evaluate the situation, so I have then more details. And I will contact Frigopol and Dr. Frank Elefsen if I have more details.

Here a short overview of the systems (actually now I do not have capacities).

coldrooms +4°C R134a (or R22) each charge 10 kg
coldrooms -20°C R507 each charge 10 kg
refrigerator -80°C R69/R23 charge 0,75 / 0,204 kg
Split System Air Conditioners R407c charge 15 kg
ice machine R134a charge 0,32 kg
coldroom -20°C R507 charge 78 kg
freeze drying systems R507 each charge 90 kg

I do a break since I have new more details (in 2 weeks).

frank
21-07-2004, 08:36 PM
I am searching for Split System Air Conditioners up to 2-5 kW.

With a system charge of 15kg you might just break my record :p of a system overcharge of 50% :D

Moeller
22-07-2004, 07:43 AM
Hi,

as I wrote, up to now I have no details. You are right, 15 kg charge for a splitsystem 5 kW can not be.

128cyclist
25-09-2008, 09:34 PM
CO2 will not work below -56C as it starts to turn to a solid so you will have to find a blend or another low strage refrigerant to get you to the lower SST required to get a chamber to -80C.

CHilly1
03-10-2008, 09:54 AM
Hello,

if you had heard something about the Refrigerants Naturally Conference in Brüssel then some customers are asking you, about?

I am searching for standard products:

1.
Low temp. refrigerator and ice-boxes up to -80°C (Different ranges from +4°C, +2°C, -5°C, -20°C and -80°C).
Normally used with R403B / R23 or R507 and R134a.
You know a supplier of those refrigerators with natural refrigerants?

2.
I am searching for small plants 10-30 kW for rooms -4°C and -30°C.
Are there running plants with natural refrigerants (CO2 / R290)?

3.
I am searching for Split System Air Conditioners up to 2-5 kW.
Also with natural refrigerants.


The background is, that a customer want only natural refrigerants, but have a lot of small refrigerators (-80°C) up to 600 pcs. and have a lot of small low temp. rooms (-30°C). All systems are running now with HFC-refrigerants.
Actually, the systems are at different places, so it is not possible to create one or two bigger one.

Anybody an idea?

Thanks for help.

regards
O. Möller
R1270 Simmilar to R507
R290 Close to R22
R600A Close to R134A
I have a few Freezers Running
I also have blended a few of these componds to get closer to the running capacities temperature ranges for tandard commercial applications, Basically I can set up an entire kitchen using freezers and cooling equipment currently running R22,R134A and R404/507 to these compounds.
I have a couple of cascade designs down to -112 C and a R290 FIrst stage with CO2/R29 second stage cascade operating at -95C also

shashidharks
25-05-2009, 10:01 AM
im want basic referegerent detail