goodman ducted CPKF36-2B

[paul_h]

Anyone familiar with goodman ducted units?

I've worked on a couple of them, mainly leak repairs, so haven't had to work on the control side much.
The control system is a nightmare, no terminals, just cables joined from the indooor straight to the defrost control PCB, so nothing is marked as far as what it does.

I've got an interesting problem. First of all, as soon as you turn the honeywell T40 t/stat on to either heat or cool, everything is energized, it seems the t/stat doesn't cut in out, just energises the indoor fan, compressor and r/v and doesn't cycle off.

The biggest problem is that it cools but doesn't go into heat mode.

Hows that you say? Didn't I say the thermostat energises everything including the r/v?

Yes! If the r/v solenoid has power, it is in cooling mode. If I disconnect power to the r/v it runs in heat mode!

Is this a screwy control system, or a screwy r/v or are goodman units wired up the way?
I'm going to quote on a new control system, but I don't know what to think about theis reversing valve.

If anyone is familiar with them, the incoming control wires to the outdoor unit are red, blue (more like a light grey if you have seen them), yellow, white and orange. Most of these go to the defrost board, so I don't know what each one actually is (ie whether they are fan, r/v, comp etc run signals).
On this install, the installers have joined the white and orange wires together from and indoor feed.

Looking at the r/v
the bottom is discharge, and the top from left to right is: condenser, compressor, indoor suction line. Can anyone tell whether that's the right order to work normally, ie engergise solenoid + heat, not energised = cooling?

so hass anyone got info on the goodman defrost PCB, the r/v, or a better explanation of the thermostat circuits?

[rude]

i have never worked on a goodman but i had a lennox old packaged unit that had the RV energised on cooling. It wasnt an issue just when heating had to come on you had to make the RV de-engergise.

[mchild]

Anyone familiar with goodman ducted units?

I've worked on a couple of them, mainly leak repairs, so haven't had to work on the control side much.
The control system is a nightmare, no terminals, just cables joined from the indooor straight to the defrost control PCB, so nothing is marked as far as what it does.

I've got an interesting problem. First of all, as soon as you turn the honeywell T40 t/stat on to either heat or cool, everything is energized, it seems the t/stat doesn't cut in out, just energises the indoor fan, compressor and r/v and doesn't cycle off.

The biggest problem is that it cools but doesn't go into heat mode.

Hows that you say? Didn't I say the thermostat energises everything including the r/v?

Yes! If the r/v solenoid has power, it is in cooling mode. If I disconnect power to the r/v it runs in heat mode!

Is this a screwy control system, or a screwy r/v or are goodman units wired up the way?
I'm going to quote on a new control system, but I don't know what to think about theis reversing valve.

If anyone is familiar with them, the incoming control wires to the outdoor unit are red, blue (more like a light grey if you have seen them), yellow, white and orange. Most of these go to the defrost board, so I don't know what each one actually is (ie whether they are fan, r/v, comp etc run signals).
On this install, the installers have joined the white and orange wires together from and indoor feed.

Looking at the r/v
the bottom is discharge, and the top from left to right is: condenser, compressor, indoor suction line. Can anyone tell whether that's the right order to work normally, ie engergise solenoid + heat, not energised = cooling?

so hass anyone got info on the goodman defrost PCB, the r/v, or a better explanation of the thermostat circuits?


paul_h,

This is common control setup in U.S. Try these documents:

http://www.tdmetal.cz/soubory/navody-technicke/Goodman_CPKF_Series_Heat_Pump.pdf

http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/internationalSS/Goodman/SS-GCPKF50.pdf

[paul_h]

Thanks, so it seems the thermostat relay for the r/c is welded, along with the comp relay as everything runs out of the t/stat constantly.

I'm an idiot though because I can't work out exactly what W2 does on those diagrams linked above.

As I said, the installers joined orange (O) and white (W2) together for some reason, and I'm trying to work out why.
edit:

i have never worked on a goodman but i had a lennox old packaged unit that had the RV energised on cooling. It wasnt an issue just when heating had to come on you had to make the RV de-engergise. Did you add an extra relay in, use some trick t/stat, or do something weird with the wiring like these installers may hav done?

[mchild]

Thanks, so it seems the thermostat relay for the r/c is welded, along with the comp relay as everything runs out of the t/stat constantly.

I'm an idiot though because I can't work out exactly what W2 does on those diagrams linked above.

As I said, the installers joined orange (O) and white (W2) together for some reason, and I'm trying to work out why.
edit:
Did you add an extra relay in, use some trick t/stat, or do something weird with the wiring like these installers may hav done?

paul_h

While there is some general commonality of wire color used for each terminal, the more important issue is the connection of the proper terminals to each other. W2 is second stage heat which is most likely electric coils installed in the air handler. O is normally the terminal that energizes the r/v and you have already figured out that when energized it is cooling and when not energized it is heating.

I am no expert on the many different ways these things can be wired up. Here are a couple of sites that may help:
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Thermostat_signals_and_wiring

http://www.toad.net/~jsmeenen/wiring.html

In case you are not aware, the typical system will defrost on a timer schedule and when there is a call for defrost it will energize the electric heat coils to temper the cold air being delivered through the duct as the blower continues to run while in the defrost cycle.

[mchild]

Thanks, so it seems the thermostat relay for the r/c is welded, along with the comp relay as everything runs out of the t/stat constantly.

I'm an idiot though because I can't work out exactly what W2 does on those diagrams linked above.

As I said, the installers joined orange (O) and white (W2) together for some reason, and I'm trying to work out why.
edit:
Did you add an extra relay in, use some trick t/stat, or do something weird with the wiring like these installers may hav done?


I have now actually looked at what I first sent you for the low voltage wiring diagram. I believe this is the operation:

When the t-stat calls (either heat or cool) Y is energized turning the compressor on.

If it is a cool call and not heat O is also energized which switches the r/v.

It the room can not maintain temp during hear mode a second contact in the t-stat is closed and energizes W2 which brings in electric heat coils.

When the defrost board at the outdoor unit calls for defrost the LVDR energizes W2 and O so that the r/v switches to cool to heat the outdoor unit and W2 is energized to temper the air being delivered through the ducts. Note: not all units actually have the electric heat coils installed.

Make sense?

[paul_h]

OK, so W2 is an output from the outdoor unit to the indoor (To run heaters if fitted)
While O is an input from the indoor unit (t/stat) to the outdoor to run the r/v.

Well in that case I'll leave the outdoor unit alone, and just replace the controller with a HAN L6 or Leasam digital control pad. Both are locally produced controllers that have the "energize r/v coil in cool mode " function.
Though I favour the leasam in this case as I don't need to run a proprietry plugged cable through the wall. With the leasam, the existing four t/stat wires can be used.

[rude]

Did you add an extra relay in, use some trick t/stat, or do something weird with the wiring like these installers may hav done?

Yeah i had an extra relay. But like you said just replace the thermostat and you should be right.

[mchild]

OK, so W2 is an output from the outdoor unit to the indoor (To run heaters if fitted)
While O is an input from the indoor unit (t/stat) to the outdoor to run the r/v.

Well in that case I'll leave the outdoor unit alone, and just replace the controller with a HAN L6 or Leasam digital control pad. Both are locally produced controllers that have the "energize r/v coil in cool mode " function.
Though I favour the leasam in this case as I don't need to run a proprietry plugged cable through the wall. With the leasam, the existing four t/stat wires can be used.


A W2 call can come from either the outdoor unit (LDVR) or the t-stat if the room temp is not able to maintained from the heat pump. Same with O, as a call can come from either the LDVR or from the t-stat if it is in cool mode.

[paul_h]

Yes, but the W2 at that outdoor unit is a wire from the outdoor unit defrost PCB, correct?

a/cs in australia hardly ever have electric heating backup. I know they can be wired in (I've worked on heaps of old 1970s gear which had electric heaters), but it's not common anymore.
People in cold climates use gas heating here, heat pumps only are use in climates where it doesn't go below 0C often so no electric heaters are used anymore in ducted systems. If they have a heat pump and it goes below 0C a few weeks a year, they make do :D
So no thermostats ever use a electric heater call on demand unless its a custom two stage t/stat and the second stage is wired up to another heat source like electric.

[mchild]

Yes, but the W2 at that outdoor unit is a wire from the outdoor unit defrost PCB, correct?

a/cs in australia hardly ever have electric heating backup. I know they can be wired in (I've worked on heaps of old 1970s gear which had electric heaters), but it's not common anymore.
People in cold climates use gas heating here, heat pumps only are use in climates where it doesn't go below 0C often so no electric heaters are used anymore in ducted systems. If they have a heat pump and it goes below 0C a few weeks a year, they make do :D
So no thermostats ever use a electric heater call on demand unless its a custom two stage t/stat and the second stage is wired up to another heat source like electric.


Yes, when the outdoor unit goes into a defrost cycle the defrost PCB gives a signal (with the LDVR) on both W2 and O.

So, air handlers don't have electric heat to temper the air when the outdoor unit is in defrost?