Eutetic plates

[A/C MAX]

Hello to all,

I need to find a way to estimate the cooling capacity of the eutetic plates, I know that the frezing point depends of the quantity of salt in the water solution inside the plate. but I want to be able to estimate the amount of heat that can be remove, mesure by liters (or gallons ) of eutetic solution.

Thanks in advance

Pierre

[tbirdtbird]

Hello to all,

I need to find a way to estimate the cooling capacity of the eutetic plates, I know that the frezing point depends of the quantity of salt in the water solution inside the plate. but I want to be able to estimate the amount of heat that can be remove, mesure by liters (or gallons ) of eutetic solution.

Thanks in advance

Pierre
Try the Dole website
http://www.doleref.com/products.html
They still make eutectic plates and may have sizing info online.

[Magoo]

Personally I do not like salt solution as the solution tends to stratify, prefer glycol. Nothing worse than a busted plate generally at the top because the water content has frozen.
magoo

[A/C MAX]

Ok, thanks Guys, I'm already send an Email to DOLE, to see if I can buy some eutetic plates, they have a nice brochures, with nice technical information...

I read a couple of very nice old post here in this forum about this plates, they are heavy, and reduce the weight capacity in the delivery truck, BUT, in the other hand, they are SIMPLE, and do not requires sofisticated "on board" electronics, and don't mess arround with the truck engine.

This is an advantage in my country, due to the fact of the high price, and hard to get parts for Carrier and Thermoking, in the small to medium delivery trucks segment.

Thanks for your help!

[tbirdtbird]

Magoo, the entire plate freezes with or without any separation. This is factored into the design. I have worked on transport systems with Dole cold plates that are 50 yrs old and going strong. And yes they ARE simple. I have no financial connection to Dole, but have been to the factory and the quality built into these plates is unlike anything left in America today

[Magoo]

Hi tbirdbird.
Don't get your shorts in a bunch.
I am offering past experince. I am keen to see what the Dole offer, as I have an business interest.
Thank you for input.
magoo

[Peter_1]

Personally I do not like salt solution as the solution tends to stratify, prefer glycol. Nothing worse than a busted plate generally at the top because the water content has frozen.
magoo
They always freeze to a solid, even the name says it: eutectic. The purpose is that they solidify.
I'm making often cold plates and this since 1990 and we have the best results with salt.
Stratification with salt, how's that possible if all the salt is disolved in the water?
A big con for glycol is that it's initial purpose is to prevent that a liquid solidifies. It becomes more a slurry when it freezes, not a solid block and that's just what we need: store as much as possible latent heat.

[Magoo]

To Peter dash one.
I bow in your presence, arise Sir Peter .
magoo

[A/C MAX]

They always freeze to a solid, even the name says it: eutectic. The purpose is that they solidify.
I'm making often cold plates and this since 1990 and we have the best results with salt.
Stratification with salt, how's that possible if all the salt is disolved in the water?
A big con for glycol is that it's initial purpose is to prevent that a liquid solidifies. It becomes more a slurry when it freezes, not a solid block and that's just what we need: store as much as possible latent heat.

Hi Peter, a real pleasure to meet you, I read all your articles about eutectic plates in this forum, as a matter of fact, searching this subjet in the web, is how I reach this forum, thank for share your knowldge

Dole have a very nice and complete information about eutectic plates, they include some cold capacity in BTU for each plates, but still I wondering how we can estimate the cold capacity in KW or BTU for a self designed plates.

Im use to buy some plates for the Italian manufacter FIC, and they works great too, but this time, I looking for some self desing.

Have a nice weekend

Pierre

[Peter_1]

Pierre, if I can help you with the design or pictures, let me know. I don't pretend mine are the best but I'm speaking out of practical experience.
I also grinded open several other plates from larger manufacturers to see how they do it.
The easiest way to weld the seams is roll welding but it's not easuy to find someone who can do this.

[A/C MAX]

Pierre, if I can help you with the design or pictures, let me know. I don't pretend mine are the best but I'm speaking out of practical experience.
I also grinded open several other plates from larger manufacturers to see how they do it.
The easiest way to weld the seams is roll welding but it's not easuy to find someone who can do this.

Hi Peter

Thanks, well I want to use this plates in a small isothermique Renault Kangoo, for medium temperature range 2° to 4°C, my idea is freze the plates trough a chiller, to avoid the instalation of the compresor inside de vehicle, so my first step is calculate the load, and the size of the plates.

As soon as I have mi first sketches I let you know

Thnks Peter, and have a nice week!

[Peter_1]

We also have a Kangoo but not cooled :p

1 st requirement: isolate it very well

Do you have a sliding door on the side as we have?
Proposal: 1 plate on 1 side and one just behind your seats, eutectic point at -10°C to -12°, thickness 4 cm.

Concerning circulating brine: in order to solidify a brine at -10°C, you need a brine at a temperature of -15°C, so you need to evaporate at -20°C, -22°c, so not so very efficient.
But it's of course possible. Circulating a brine at -22°C will also need a strong pump to circulate.

For a Kangoo, a 1/2 Hp will be enough. Why not install the compressor in a small corner in the van and your condensor on the roof?

Another option is some bigger plates wit he compressor between in an isolated space. The plates are behind a small wall wit on top a small fan.
As soon you need cold in the space, a thermostat engages the fan and 'sucks cold' from behind the wall.
Something like this http://www.frigoblock.de/index.cfm?menu=produkte&sub=fk&CFID=5337401&CFTOKEN=87213990

[A/C MAX]

Ok, Peter

Well yes, we have the Kangoo with slide door too, the insulation are made by the French company EPC, thanks for the information about the frezzing points...

My concern about install the compresor "on board" is the weight, the load capacity in this small vans are only 500 kg, so less weight could mean more delivery capacity,

1/2 HP semihermetic compresor could weigh 35 Kilogram or so, use a hermetic compressor onborad I guess its not recomended, what do you think?

RGDS

[Peter_1]

Indeed, a Kangoo can't charge that much.
We mostly use hermetics for the price and this gives nver real problems if the place in the van is right chosen.

Weight compressor = +/- 23 kg.

If you want to go for a brine cooler, I then should made a brine cooler from a 1.5 HP hermetic and a PHE and a circulating pump and some sort of a buffer tank.
How will you accomplish coupling and decoupling?
We experimented also once with special gas couplings to disconnect a counter. But you lose always a little bit.

Will anyhow cost a lot more then installing it in the van.

To reduce space, you could go also go for a watercooled condenser. You then have to connect power and water

[A/C MAX]

Ok Peter, well looks if I frozze de plates with a Chiller, then I have to use a 3 times bigger compressor, it's a good point for shure.

Coupling and decoupling the circuit,could be made trough some "quick connect" devices, and yes the idea were use brine instead refrigerant, a more "envioromental friendly" solution, but again, this ad some more money to the equippement... I got your idea.

Well, looks the key here is try to develope the lightest compressor/condenser, and found the right place for fix it. Im going to make some research for small water cooled condensers.

How many liters of eutetic solution do you estimate for this application?, some years ago, I bring to México ( as a consulting service) the French company OLIVO COLD LOGISTICS http://www.olivo-logistics.com/ this company made some plastic insulated containers colled by CO2 or by eutetic plates, They are available here, and maybe I can froze this plates in a frezzer @ -20C or more, and then put in a truck inside a cabinet with a fan to control de temperature, but I don't know how many plates or liters of solution were needed.

Thanks for your time and help Peter!

Pierre

[cadwaladr]

what a post lots of info,these systems were very popular but the weight was a problem,very simplistic to operate many variations ,i use them for customers who sell maggots as the ammonia given off does not rot them,

[Magoo]

well there ya go a busted plate.
magoo.