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View Full Version : Politics American style verses the rest of the world.







benncool
20-06-2004, 02:08 AM
It is enjoyable reading the slant on our trade from the mostly British point of view.

Aiyub, posted his opinion of why the Chinese are gaining in manufacturing sector. Most generally folks on this site do not give such a polictical observation on a subject. Over here such an observation would go on for hours or in this case pages.

Being a Yank, I find this to be normal procedure. I have been in different parts of the world and the "man on the street" are reluctant to get into any type of political conversation.

Is it just an American thing to argue politics?

baker
20-06-2004, 05:04 AM
Is it just an American thing to argue politics?

I would have thought it to be the opposite. Years of reading alt.hvac has given me the impression that the typical American states his politics and then wants to fight anyone who disagrees. They are not interested in a proper discussion. They are right and everyone else is wrong. Any facts that go against their perceptions are dismissed as lies.

I was amazed when one of the more vocal alt.hvac contributors, PJM, expressed dismay and disgust at the Iraqi prison torture photos. He was really surprised and ashamed. I don't know anyone in this country (Australia) who was surprised - there had been plenty of advance notice.

Mark Baker

benncool
20-06-2004, 02:45 PM
I would have thought it to be the opposite. Years of reading alt.hvac has given me the impression that the typical American states his politics and then wants to fight anyone who disagrees.

Mark Baker

So, you have noticed that! :)

Abe
20-06-2004, 05:35 PM
Baker,

Why even bother !!!!!
What is being implied is that this one barks..........others dont, they just follow their masters sheepishly.....

Its meant to elicit a response............We better off yawning and ignoring such nonsense

chemi-cool
20-06-2004, 06:46 PM
To become a politician, you have to be:

A liar,
A thief,
Greedy.
Have, conscious, honesty and loyalty, removed.

Sorry but it hurts my back to bend that low. :eek:


Chemi

benncool
22-06-2004, 01:26 AM
During the recent State Funeral of Ronald Reagan I did notice a strange thing that might give Marc's statement some validity.

State religion is unconstitutional here. But the out pouring of Patriotism during this observance did have on a religious tone.

Gary
24-06-2004, 11:53 AM
People are people everywhere. People are sheep everywhere. They are scammed by their leaders, who are thieves and dictators, because the vast majority are themselves thieves and dictators.

Our perceptions of those in other countries are formed by the politicians (including the religious leaders), and the politically motivated media in our own countries. Thieves and dictators, one and all.

We all think we know what is going on in the world, and none of us do. We know what we are told. False information leads to false conclusions, all filtered through the basic human inclinations to covet advantages at someone else's expense and to dictate the behavior of our neighbors.

The world believes that 'might makes right', differing only in their brand of dictatorship. The unpalletable and unpopular alternative to 'might makes right' is 'non-defensive force is wrong', which implies that various behaviors which are non-threatening to others are not wrong. In other words, 'live and let live', tolerating infinite variations of 'right'.

benncool
24-06-2004, 03:26 PM
Yes but Gary, do you not believe in some tpye of social order so that everyone gets his little piece of the pie? If so then we have to ask, 'who's social order is correct?'

Gary
24-06-2004, 05:51 PM
Social order? What's that? Is that another way of saying might makes right?

The legitimate function of government is to help us defend our life, liberty, and property. Nothing else. When government goes beyond this, it infringes upon life, liberty, and property.

A group has no more rights than the individuals within that group, i.e. rights to life, liberty, and property, and the inherent right to defend themselves against those who would infringe upon their rights to life, liberty, and property. The group has a right to collectively defend its members, because the individuals within that group have that right.

Non-defensive force is wrong, even if people vote for it.

frank
24-06-2004, 07:04 PM
HHummmm! - someone seems to have opened a can of worms here :)

chemi-cool
24-06-2004, 07:31 PM
Hey Frank,

Not long now until the elections in the USA.
The results will affect the rest of the western world.

We will wait to see who who wins, the one with the money or the other one :D

Then we shall talk politics again. ;)

Chemi

neil sailes
24-06-2004, 08:18 PM
World politics are a joke, one minute a country is an enemy to the world because of its leadership. Then fifteen years later still with the same dictatorship in control it becomes an allie.
Heres to you Mr Gadaffi. So if we didn't go to war with Iraq again. In ten years time if the "allied nations" needed there help would we have become friends with Sadam again?
Politics are so fickle
Neil

chemi-cool
24-06-2004, 08:39 PM
Hi Neil,

In Gaddafi's case, you watch and see all the British and American companies rushing to Libya to sell their services for hard cash.

He is not as stupid as he looks, he is looking into his country's future.
It the British and the Americans who are getting blind and stupid by the money.

I was not far from Lockerbie when his " messengers" did the "job" for him and went to see the next morning.

Mr Gaddafi should fried!!! :mad:

Chemi

chemi-cool
24-06-2004, 08:47 PM
Thats the problem Abe.

You are going to watch football, " We get better, we find another niche........" HOW, is the first question and WHEN is the second.

Let me know when you come up with something, I will be glad to join the revolution. :rolleyes:

Chemi

Gary
24-06-2004, 11:55 PM
Hey Frank,

Not long now until the elections in the USA.
The results will affect the rest of the western world.

We will wait to see who who wins, the one with the money or the other one :D

Then we shall talk politics again. ;)

Chemi

No matter who wins, our government will get bigger, more intrusive, and more expensive. If it weren't for the Libertarian Party, I wouldn't waste my time voting.

Prof Sporlan
25-06-2004, 01:14 AM
Plato probably had it all figured out with his philosopher king running his utopian-style kingdom. But there is an implicit impracticality of mixing politics with the philosopher's desire to bring about something like a Maslowian self-actualized society. Socialism and its variants ultimately failed on this very point. Such is the nature of politics. :)

In the meantime, we'll just have to rely on capitalism and its acceptance of individualism as the most efficient way to move mankind forward. :)

neil sailes
25-06-2004, 07:37 PM
The question is Prof
If mankind lived in an idealistic society in peace and harmony with themselves and nature.How long would it be until greed and envy took over again?
This is just part of human nature and it has been since we were all monkeys.

Neil

rbartlett
25-06-2004, 11:39 PM
Hi Neil,

In Gaddafi's case, you watch and see all the British and American companies rushing to Libya to sell their services for hard cash.

He is not as stupid as he looks, he is looking into his country's future.
It the British and the Americans who are getting blind and stupid by the money.

I was not far from Lockerbie when his " messengers" did the "job" for him and went to see the next morning.

Mr Gaddafi should fried!!! :mad:

Chemi
chemi gadaffi had nothing to do with lockerbie

he took the wrap because it was expidient for both him 'pay 100 million us in compensation get 2 billion in 'aid'
and the americans to 'further' it's middle east relations..

http://www.lockerbietruth.com/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,431621,00.html

cheers

richard

Prof Sporlan
26-06-2004, 03:28 AM
But, of course, some countries have at least more closely approached capitalism than others, such as the USA.
Hong Kong, no doubt, may have come closest to adhering to the precepts of capitalism. But they have had the benefit of being located near a very large socialist neighbor. The early American Pilgrims were merely attempting to escape from an unruly monarchy... :)




The question is Prof
If mankind lived in an idealistic society in peace and harmony with themselves and nature.How long would it be until greed and envy took over again?

This is just part of human nature and it has been since we were all monkeys.
Neil
Idealistic society is the pipedream of philosophers, socialists, and those who smoke the opiates. And to their dismay, capitalism continues to produce wealth. Thus the reason they keep smoking... :)

benncool
06-07-2004, 10:09 PM
The whole concept of "wealth" is bizzare anyway.

There is no more wealth on this earth than when Jesus walked this world. Wealth is just based on what we are willing to pay for the natural resources that we have. There are no more natural resources that when the world began.

We didn't import any wealth or natural resources from outer space. Wait until that happens. I'm glad I won't be around to see that. :D

Prof Sporlan
07-07-2004, 02:28 AM
The whole concept of "wealth" is bizzare anyway.

Actually, wealth is a fairly simple concept. It encompasses anything of economic value, which includes natural resources. What is of greater value? One hour's worth of Marc O'Brien's time diagnosing a refrigeration system anomaly; or a 50 lb bag of wheat? :)


There is no more wealth on this earth than when Jesus walked this world. Wealth is just based on what we are willing to pay for the natural resources that we have. There are no more natural resources that when the world began.

Adam Smith wrote a rather dull but significant book: "Wealth of Nations". Among other things, he points out the value of having skilled people employed in useful labor.

His work explains why a nation can be rich in natural resources, and its citizens very poor. While a nation with meager natural resources can be an economic powerhouse.

baker
07-07-2004, 08:07 AM
As I understand it, the economic rationalists have taken the bits out of Adam Smith that suit them, and ignored the rest. A bit like religious fundamentalists that selectively read their books.

benncool
07-07-2004, 12:42 PM
The worth of skilled labor is figured into some commodity. For instance the skill of a refrigeration technican is figured into the price of putting edible food on one's table.

Our costs of refrigeration service are figured into the cost of a "cold" beer. If our cost of labor gets too high then people will return to drinking warm beer.

frank
07-07-2004, 08:04 PM
What is of greater value? One hour's worth of Marc O'Brien's time diagnosing a refrigeration system anomaly; or a 50 lb bag of wheat?

OK Prof - what is the answer?? :D

Prof Sporlan
08-07-2004, 02:49 AM
Our costs of refrigeration service are figured into the cost of a "cold" beer. If our cost of labor gets too high then people will return to drinking warm beer.
Absolutely! :) And for those who expressly favor cold beer, they'll have to work longer, harder, smarter to enjoy such libation. :)

mcamacho
11-07-2004, 04:37 AM
Well, the political apathy is seen in the two extreme situations: where the systems have high power over the citizens, such as in marxist and socialist regimes, and in mature democracies, where a lot of people has vote and voice, but they can hardly get to an agreement, and nothing is done at the end.

United States is not a direct democracy. It is a representative democracy, and that is why things usually work (believe it or not, they do!)

-Manuel.

jjpeterson
12-07-2004, 10:16 PM
I do not beleive the US is comfortable with a mix of politics and religion. The religious right of the republican party has organized itself well. But I feel their extreme views have raised a groundswell of discomfort.

American politics undulate between factions as a general progress is made over time. Here in Colorado there were laws passed overwhemingly to condemn homosexuality. Then two drunks beat a gay boy and left him hanging on a fence to die. The laws were declared unconstituional. It is no longer even a subject of discussion.

I think the death of 600 American boys in Iraq will have a similar quenching effect on the notions that American Protestantism and Political action have common goals. Only the time it will take is in doubt

Gary
13-07-2004, 10:24 AM
People are always surprised when I tell them the most important issue of the day is cigarette taxes.

The media tells us what issues are important and what issues are not, and tobacco taxes are not on the radar screen, despite the fact that I spend more money on smokes than on food.

The media distracts us, so that we won't notice the pickpocket. "HEY LOOK OVER THERE. IT'S A WAR" (insert hand, remove wallet). They dictate what we think about, and they dictate what we talk about. And we don't bother to look around and see what else is going on.

We tax the corporations, they add it to the price of the products, and we buy the products, thereby paying that tax. How stupid is that?

Smokers actually vote for the people who raise their cigarette taxes. How stupid is that?

We get a tax break, but government spending increases. How stupid is that?

And eventually, they will disarm us. It doesn't get much stupider than that.

Voters are every bit as stupid as the politicians think they are. They deserve the government they get. Unfortunately, the rest of us get that government, too. Who will win the election? The bad guys will win. They always do.

chemi-cool
13-07-2004, 06:32 PM
Hi Gary.

please ask some of the UK boys what is the price of 20 pack cigarettes.

Please sit down before you read the answer :cool:

You will be surprised, how much tax they pay.

Chemi

Abe
13-07-2004, 10:28 PM
4.60 for a pack of 20 Benson and Hedges
I bet 4.00 at least for every pack is Tax
Petrol
94 pence per liter
I bet at least 80 pence is Tax

To smoke here say u on 20 a day.............32.20 per week
times 52 Equals 1674.40 per year!!!

Now I could Holiday In maldives for that!!!

Peter_1
15-07-2004, 03:46 PM
Appr. the same in Belgium. Fuel cost = +/- 0.25 /l. State adds +/- 0.75 /l gives +/- 1/l and on that total amount, they charge 21% tax so +/- 1.2

So a tax calculated on a tax. Stupid.

We have 3 different official languages, so we need for each minister place +/- 3 ministers.
And all this for a country of +/-10 million peoples.

Ayiub, this is the reason why there is a flourishing trade in cigarettes for UK citizens here. Close to the sea, they come with full busses to all the different tobacco and pralines shops.
And even then, they pay much to much for the pralines (+/- 30 to 35 /kg where you can find quality pralines for +/- 15 to 20 /kg)
Same for us, some of us are going to France (only 30 minutes drive for us) for wine and other beverage shopping.
In the past (10 years ago), the Netherlands was then well known for their sex-shops (also 35 to 40 minutes drive for me)

And for those who live close to Luxemburg, fuel is cheaper there.

That's perhaps a benefit of a small country.

benncool
21-07-2004, 08:25 PM
4.60 for a pack of 20 Benson and Hedges
I bet 4.00 at least for every pack is Tax
Petrol
94 pence per liter
I bet at least 80 pence is Tax

To smoke here say u on 20 a day.............32.20 per week
times 52 Equals 1674.40 per year!!!

Now I could Holiday In maldives for that!!!

If I read that correctly, that would mean a L4.60 pack of cigarettes would cost $8.42 US.

Last I knew a pack of cigarettes around here cost $5.00 US

Dan
23-07-2004, 03:47 AM
How stupid is that?

What a wonderful catch-phrase, Gary. Are you planning to do a Blue collar techmethod comedy tour any time soon?

"Hey, you paid me to come here!" How stupid is that?
"Yes, I am crouched and you can see the crack of my ass." How stupid is that?
You don't know all 8 critical temperatures? How stupid is that?
LOL.
Dan thought he was pressing "Preview Post" and pressed "Submit Reply." How stupid is that?

Gary
23-07-2004, 09:31 AM
Nope. I have no butt cleavage to speak of... LOL

benncool
23-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Over here in the US the big news is the forth coming Presidential election.

There is a clever skit going around the internet that is really hilarious. It doesn't make any difference who you support this film clip bashes both canidates. Here it is.

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/this_land

shogun7
24-07-2004, 10:13 PM
Great post, Dan. May you be blessed with 10,000 children!