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Brian_UK
20-05-2009, 11:53 PM
This question is related to UK employment law and it is raised by me because I am getting old and crotchety.

My employer has asked, somewhat brusquely, for sight of my passport to prove that I am able to work in the UK.

They quoted the recently amended Immigration Act and in particular sections 15-25 which detail the things that the company needs to do to have an "excuse" for employing a non UK Citizen legally.

When I asked for clarification of the legal requirement for me to have to produce my passport, or other documents, they simply send me a copy of the Employers Guide from the Home Office, Border Security, and told me to phone the Home Office if I had any queries.

Now I am a full UK Citizen and have been since I was born here 61 years ago; I have a UK(EU) passport and object to this demand to have more records of me kept by A N Other.

As this request to see my passport is not a "repeat" viewing I do not feel that I have a need to show my passport.

Having checked with the Home Office they confirmed that there is nothing in Law which says that I must produce my passport to prove that I am eligible to work in the UK.

However they do advise Company's that they may be able to threaten employees for being in breach of contract if there is such a demand in the Terms and Conditions of Employment.

My question therefore is this:-

My T&C state, "This offer is also subject to you being eligible to work in the UK under the terms of the Asylum and Immigration Act."

Does this clause provide enough leverage for the Company to insist on proceeding with their actions or can I tell'em to shove it?

eggs
21-05-2009, 12:02 AM
Brian, the best thing to do is this......tomorrow turn up for work wearing full Hijab. Insist your new name is Tracey and that you are now a lesbian........oh and your disabled.

That will stop the questions and scare the beggers, you will be left in peace to fix your fridges;)

Eggs

Brian_UK
21-05-2009, 12:13 AM
Yep, a good plan, I'll try it at the next team talk. ;)

Karl Hofmann
21-05-2009, 01:10 AM
And what if you do not have a passport?..There are still plenty of brits who don't have one.... Or yours has expired amd for the purpose of what they want has no valid legality...

Has the person inspecting your passport attended the realavent course for passport inspection? Surly there is information on a passport which may be subject to the data protection act... And what if a passport was fake... How would they know?

Tell 'em to go swivel.... Perhaps this attitude is why I work on my own.

If they want to know, I'd suggest that they go and look for the records of your birth... This attitude really makes me mad.... The solution is simple though... If you are claiming dole, then here is your ticket...

Abe
21-05-2009, 11:06 PM
A Birth Certificate is a document of public record and therefore open to inspection.

I would give your employer the date and place of your birth. They can obtain the requisite document themselves.

Not everyone has a passport, nor do we have id cards.

Im intrigued why they asking you, do you speak with a strange accent, eat sheeps testicles in the company canteen or dress differently?

Abe
21-05-2009, 11:12 PM
My question therefore is this:-

My T&C state, "This offer is also subject to you being eligible to work in the UK under the terms of the Asylum and Immigration Act."



Your contract is subject to your eligibility to work in the UK.

It does not state how you prove this eligibility or whos responsibility it is to prove the right you possess to work here.

It is a poorly drafted term.

Someone must prove eligibility, I would think since you want to work, the onus is upon you to prove this.

Give them your name, (sic) your DOB and Place.
They can do the rest

Abe
21-05-2009, 11:16 PM
Has the person inspecting your passport attended the realavent course for passport inspection? Surly there is information on a passport which may be subject to the data protection act... And what if a passport was fake... How would they know?

.

They found a guy last week with thousands of fake passports for sale, precisely for these kind of purposes.

Fake passports have even fooled Immigration Officers at the airport

Brian_UK
21-05-2009, 11:43 PM
Thanks Guys.

Karl, in place of a passport they will accept a full birth certificate and proof of original national insurance number.

Well, when I was little they didn't issue those plastic cards you just got a number from someone when you started work.

I suppose by basic question in all of this is:-

As a UK national am I subject to the Immigration Act?

I ask because I have never immigrated in my life. :D

Jeez, I am turning further into a Grumpy Old Man. :)

Karl Hofmann
22-05-2009, 12:16 AM
As a UK national, you may be a member of an ethnic minority.......

Magoo
22-05-2009, 12:40 AM
Tell them you are working under cover for MI -5, and that you are not able to divolge such information.
magoo

frank
22-05-2009, 07:25 PM
Brian, the best thing to do is this......tomorrow turn up for work wearing full Hijab. Insist your new name is Tracey and that you are now a lesbian........oh and your disabled.

That will stop the questions and scare the beggers, you will be left in peace to fix your fridges;)

Eggs
And don't forget to tell 'em that you are PREGNANT as well :D

I would have thought that if you have a National Insurance number issued by the UK Government then they have already accepted that you are entitled to work in the UK. After all, they take your N.I. contributions and Tax deductions willingly enough.

Brian_UK
22-05-2009, 11:01 PM
^ Very good point Frank.

Abe
23-05-2009, 05:44 AM
And don't forget to tell 'em that you are PREGNANT as well :D

I would have thought that if you have a National Insurance number issued by the UK Government then they have already accepted that you are entitled to work in the UK. After all, they take your N.I. contributions and Tax deductions willingly enough.


You can also "buy em" on the black from people who have bribed people within.

desA
23-05-2009, 10:02 AM
I'm sure that showing the documents asked for should be no problem, if everything is in order.

Perhaps I'm missing some background to the whole story here, but, from the outside it would appear that prejudice is being shown against the OP, in him, a UK citizen, by birth, being asked to show a passport & eligibility to work in his motherland.

If it's an issue of colour or racial bias, then it should be dealt with firmly.

If all things are in order, then the employer should be informed in no uncertain terms that bias appears to have been shown, & that offense has been taken.

There is absolutely no need whatsoever for the citizen of any country to show a passport, or work-permit - local ID documents should always be sufficient.

Brian_UK
23-05-2009, 10:11 PM
I tend to agree with you DesA but am against it in principle because we seem to be becoming a police state within the UK (my opinion anyway); with so many cameras and petty laws allowing all and sundry to spy upon us.

The rules, as written, are aware of the possibility of racial bias so suggest that the way around that is to include 'everyone'. Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Regarding your last comment, we, in the UK, as yet do not have a national or local ID document (as yet.)

desA
24-05-2009, 03:25 AM
Regarding your last comment, we, in the UK, as yet do not have a national or local ID document (as yet.)

Then I can certainly see where difficulties can & most certainly must arise in everyday life.

How on earth does one go about proving one's identity, when necessary, or upon request?

The US has the social-security card, or local driver's license as a suitable local ID. South Africa issues a national ID book/card. In Asia, there are a combination of documents used - local ID card, house registration, family register - for these purposes.

Abe
24-05-2009, 08:57 AM
The "quirk" about Britishness , in the past, has always been based on an individuals honesty, justice, the concept of innocense till proved guilty, and of fair play.

By way of small example, the rows of milk bottles left on a doorstep exemplified this principle.

Life has changed, in the last 20 years and more........

The environment has changed, demographics, culture, religion......its being a metarmorphises, ( I cant spell that word)

So, to keep within the rules, it dont matter if you speak in a dialect that stems from the depths of rural England, have a face as ruddy as a Lincolnshire potato farmer or the thick arms of someone from Shropshire.

The prim and unassuming position of the HR Manager, peering above her varifocals will insist upon some form of ID, to enable the tick on the check list that the employee has passed the "right to work" test.

In the ansence of an ID, card, whats the next best thing?, a passport...........

As a lawyer I undertake ID checks onmost of my clients. I will ask either a passport or a drivers license. In my case I am determining if the person IS the person who they claim to be.

I am not establishing a right they have, so my check is different.

Were I to be a HR Officer, I would use my basic god given common sense, and tick that box without insisting upon any proof, where I can determine the person has a right to work...based on a balance of probability.

However, the rules may state that evidential material of proof must be contained within the file.

Others, may want to stick to the letter and put in the file, a positive iD record in that folder.That way it becomes a "certainty"

frank
24-05-2009, 12:06 PM
The rules, as written, are aware of the possibility of racial bias so suggest that the way around that is to include 'everyone'. Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Similar sentiments to my comments in another thread ;)


As a lawyer I undertake ID checks onmost of my clients. I will ask either a passport or a drivers license. In my case I am determining if the person IS the person who they claim to be.
Before I let anyone drive our vehicles, I take a copy of their driving licence as proof that they are Full Licence holders and not disqualified from driving.
Does your employer already have a copy of your licence Brian?

Brian_UK
24-05-2009, 08:17 PM
Does your employer already have a copy of your licence Brian?
Oh yes, I can see the sense in that because it may also show demerits due to bad driving which may affect the company insurance.

Abe
27-05-2009, 11:33 AM
Similar sentiments to my comments in another thread ;)


Before I let anyone drive our vehicles, I take a copy of their driving licence as proof that they are Full Licence holders and not disqualified from driving.
Does your employer already have a copy of your licence Brian?

Frank

The credit size drivers licence does not indicate the number of points they have, you need to see the counterfoil.

Keep a copy of the counterfoil in your file.

In your contract of employment put in a clause saying this,

" For insurance purposes the employee will inform the company know at any time that the employee is awarded penalty points on your licence"

This way if an employee fails to let you know, then he is in breach of his contractual obligation and subject to dismissal for gross misconduct. You dont have to dismiss of course, but at least place a letter of warning in his file , so if in the event something like this happens again, you have a record in place.

In your company handbook, stipulate that a driving conviction whilst driving a company vehicle constitutes gross misconduct on the part of the employee.

Insurance is no joking matter, so I take this very seriously