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Peter_1
17-05-2009, 10:55 AM
For those who already did exams or are connected to an exam center: if you do your practical test, what exactly do you have to do?
There's a soldering test and also a test to demonstrate that you can handle safely refrigerants.

While doing this test on a test stand, do you have to demonstrate also your abilities/capacities as a refrigeration tech?
Or do you only have to demonstrate that you can charge and recover safely a test stand?

For example, if there's a wrong orifice in a TEV (a Danfoss 6 instead of a 1 with an extremely hunting and flooding TEV as a result) , do you need to replace it?
The candidate became confused when the examiner asked if it wasn't subtracting instead of adding and became even more confused when he was asked if he was anyhow measuring the temperatures on the correct lines.

What do you do with a candidate who tries to remove the 'bullet' (orifice) via the SH screw and tells the examiner that the TEV is broken because he can't unwind this screw completely to remove the 'bullet'?

Or the examiner asks him if he isn't afraid that all the pressurized refrigerant will leak out this screw once completely unscrewed (which isn't possible of course)?

Do yo have to adjust the SH of the TEV? Must the candidate demonstrate that he knows that SH isn't the sum of the temperature measured on the discharge line and the liquid lines (giving +/- 60/140F which was for a candidate normal)? He became

If his filterdryer becomes completely iced and he de-ices the sight glass and rubs off the ice of it to see the gas passing and tells the examiner that the compressor has a gas shortage, can this candidate succeed in his exams in your country?

You can train every candidate in 1 day - even a nurse with all my respect for a nurse - to perform the needed safe handling (charging, recovering gas, vacuum...) a small refrigeration test stand.
So, someone who never saw before a manifold follows a training of 4 days on the test stands he/she will do the exams and gets his safe handling certificate. Is this the purpose of the F-gas exams?

Can someone tell me very briefly how the test is going in other EU countries?

Picture of compressor, evaporating at 10C, SH 0K, ran for at least 45 minutes this way and candidate knew the safe handling methods.
Was shown and trained these handlings like a robot.

taz24
17-05-2009, 02:01 PM
Hello Peter.

The test is in two parts as you know and the theoretical exam proves your knowledge as regards superheat, subcooling, the effects of excesive superheat and such like.

On the practical the candidate starts with a test rig with no gas in it (simulateing the leak) a leak test will then find a simulated leak in a section of sacrificial pipe. The pipe is then removed and a new piece is made and brazed (demonstrating competance to braze). The whole piece is then pressure tested to the correct pressure (the candidate needs to work that out) and then the system is evacuated.
After the evacuation the refigerant needs weighing into the system correctly and then the system needs running up and commisioning. If a fault with the system is noticed at this point then it will need rectifying.
After all that and after all the correct procedures were carried out the refrigerant is removed ready for the next candidate.

So the candidate demonstrates the knowledge and ability to
Leak test
repair leaks (including brazing)
pressure test
evacuate
correctly charge refrigerant
commision system
fault find and finaly
recover refrigerant

Cheers taz.

.

Peter_1
17-05-2009, 02:04 PM
Additional question: you have a restricted dryer.
You pump it down till pressure in liquid dryer is atmospheric pressure. You then open the circuit and replaces the dryer.
How then continue?
Do you agree anyhow to pumpdown till atmospheric pressure?

taz24
17-05-2009, 02:16 PM
Additional question: you have a restricted dryer.
You pump it down till pressure in liquid dryer is atmospheric pressure. You then open the circuit and replaces the dryer.
How then continue?
Do you agree anyhow to pumpdown till atmospheric pressure?


On the dryer the correct procedure would be to remove, replace and then evacuate the liquid line.
But an industrial accepted way is to pump down the liquid line until there is a fraction of a bar (0.2 bar gauge) prep the dryer and tools so you can then just swap the dryer for the new one.
I it is done correctly then only a small amount of vapour will flow out and stop the ingress of air.

If it is done wrong or takes too long then air will enter the liquid line so a vac of that line will be required.

taz.

.

Peter_1
17-05-2009, 02:50 PM
Taz, correct procedure should be: recover till 0.3 bar absolute, purge with nitrogen, replace dryer, evacuate at least till 270 Pa and refill again.

al
17-05-2009, 02:57 PM
peter

At the moment ireland doesn't have a fgas exam, so we travel to uk and do the city and guilds 2079, as you have described anyone can sit for 4 days training and pass the exam.

i would hope that a new criteria would be introduced of at least 1 year experience such as on our apprenticeship courses.

we will wait and see, at the moment it appears to be a good earner for the training centres!!

on your candidates experiences they should have failed.

al

sedgy
17-05-2009, 08:17 PM
hi peter 1
I have lived in mallorca - spain for 5 years and it seems that a father passes his fridge papers over to his on ,it seems OUTSIDERS cannot aply for any cirtifcation

multisync
17-05-2009, 09:17 PM
There has been a mad scramble from training advisers setting up on their own chasing the big bucks. But it seems that already colleges and training centres are cutting prices by finding ways of reducing the level/quality/time . It probably will end up just the same as 2078

Peter_1
17-05-2009, 10:49 PM
Anyone else can share his comments?

Peter_1
19-05-2009, 06:01 PM
So few in the whole EU who already did their exams?

multisync
19-05-2009, 06:40 PM
So few in the whole EU who already did their exams?

It's not just that, I heard the wholesalers were requesting an urgent meeting with the G.ment about the extra red tape regarding selling refrigerant. Seems they don't want the hassle..They are worried if they refuse to sell gas, Ebay will simply pick up the slack.

El Padre
19-05-2009, 07:14 PM
Hi Folks,
Just a quick note regarding the dryer, here we recover the refrigerant until 0barg which is equal to atmospheric pressure, but the charge would have to be removed anyway because you have to pressure test to 55 Deg. I have already done the 2079, but DEFRA are still not ready to give Refcom the go-ahead for the register, I agree that the quality of the test could be comprimised to rush people through, but that would only be possible with the practical part as the theory test is done on line. What will happen once we get CO2 VRV/F's!

Quality
19-05-2009, 07:48 PM
Its never gonna stop gas being had by those who wanna recharge leaky plants etc ,it will however ( when every thing is in place I.e. Jul 2011) stop those who are not registered actualy registering work carried out with the regional building control.

which is what part p

and corgi / gas safe register

is all about

I have my veiws on doing things, so do everybody else its a way regualte a similar job the same way

it stinks I know / think but hey what choce do we really have

:cool::cool::cool::cool: maybe

wingman
19-05-2009, 07:58 PM
Peter,


I have done the exam and passed. But I do think that the exams are in my honest opinion way too easy.

The exam questions are given before you even take the exam. I mean that you get a list of possible questions they might ask. How on earth can you take such an exam serious ?

frank
19-05-2009, 08:07 PM
Peter,


I have done the exam and passed. But I do think that the exams are in my honest opinion way too easy.

The exam questions are given before you even take the exam. I mean that you get a list of possible questions they might ask. How on earth can you take such an exam serious ?
Another confirmation then that the whole thing is just another money making racket?????

wingman
19-05-2009, 08:25 PM
Another confirmation then that the whole thing is just another money making racket?????


Well, in my opinion, yes.

multisync
19-05-2009, 08:42 PM
It's not a scam, it's just another typical example of a good scheme undermined by vested interests. Certain colleges are looking at a price point of 150 to get the 2079 qualification. Who will go and pay a grand when they can get it for 150? That price means it's being reduced to 2078 standard and Wingman is living proof that it has already been compromised.

It's a shame but the training companies are responsible for upholding the standard and already they have been found wanting

Quality
19-05-2009, 08:47 PM
It's not a scam, it's just another typical example of a good scheme undermined by vested interests. Certain colleges are looking at a price point of 150 to get the 2079 qualification. Who will go and pay a grand when they can get it for 150? That price means it's being reduced to 2078 standard and Wingman is living proof that it has already been compromised.

It's a shame but the training companies are responsible for upholding the standard and already they have been found wanting

I could not agree more, its the provsion of training and correct assessment which is being paired down to make money by these centres

frank
19-05-2009, 08:56 PM
I could not agree more, its the provsion of training and correct assessment which is being paired down to make money by these centres
Are you saying then that all of the training we had years ago to achieve C & G standards was not up to it so we all now need to be re-trained to handle refrigerants?

multisync
19-05-2009, 09:02 PM
Are you saying then that all of the training we had years ago to achieve C & G standards was not up to it so we all now need to be re-trained to handle refrigerants?

Are you saying nothing has changed in the 6o years since you last went to school?

Quality
19-05-2009, 09:04 PM
Not at all But as wingman pointed out he were given an exam (presumabley a mock) before he sat the real one instead he should have been given proper training to acheive or prove proper knowledge and under standing that is required to meet the criteria of the new regulations

frank
19-05-2009, 09:14 PM
Lets not get carried away.

We all handle refrigerants. Years ago, if you needed to work on a system, it was easier to vent the gas and then re-charge.

Now, we are told that that is wrong, so we must recover into a bottle and not vent, because, apparently, (unproven as far a I'm concerned) it is harmful to the atmosphere, and our grandkids, grandkids may die of over heating or intense solar radiation.

Any sensible refrig engineer in the trade will keep up with the press releases, current legislation etc. and adopt his attitude and working practices to comply.

Why I need to have 4 days off work losing revenue to be re-trained by someone possibly less experienced or qualified than me and to pay for the privilege, honestly, passes me by.

Quality
19-05-2009, 09:23 PM
Lets not get carried away.

by someone possibly less experienced or qualified than me and to pay for the privilege, honestly, passes me by.

I know of a few places that clued up experienced guys like your self can gain certification in less than one day for assessment only after all not everybody needs training but it is there if you pay for it

frank
19-05-2009, 09:30 PM
I know of a few places that clued up experienced guys like your self can gain certification in less than one day for assessment only after all not everybody needs training but it is there if you pay for it
As I said POSSIBLY ....

wingman
19-05-2009, 09:46 PM
Not at all But as wingman pointed out he were given an exam (presumabley a mock) before he sat the real one instead he should have been given proper training to acheive or prove proper knowledge and under standing that is required to meet the criteria of the new regulations


I just want to point out that I am allready 12 years in the trade and I do know how to handle refrigerants. ;)

wingman
19-05-2009, 09:51 PM
Why I need to have 4 days off work losing revenue to be re-trained by someone possibly less experienced or qualified than me and to pay for the privilege, honestly, passes me by.


:D

I could not agree more with you on that.

frank
19-05-2009, 09:51 PM
I know of a few places that clued up experienced guys like your self can gain certification
It begs the question........ how did these guys get qualified to be able to train or certify the rest of us??

Quality
19-05-2009, 10:02 PM
Its a chicken egg thing I.e. who teachers the teacher.

I were not refering to a few small training companies I were refering to some well established quite large organisations, none of which I have any connection with other than use them for training.

reputable they are too.

multisync
19-05-2009, 10:05 PM
As I said POSSIBLY ....

That's the reason you need to be re-trained because it's possible you haven't been as well trained as you like to think. Why should the rest of the world take your word when we know most fridge exams are not worth the paper they're written on (my own inc)

Peter_1
19-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Very interesting for me, I should say, continue my friends.
I'm a Belgium examiner for the F-Gas and to be honest, I have the same complaints as most of you vent here.
I see that most have the same frustrations as I have.

taz24
20-05-2009, 01:14 PM
It begs the question........ how did these guys get qualified to be able to train or certify the rest of us??


Hi Frank.

Speaking from a purely personal point of view.

I have ben in the trade 30 years now, I did a 5 year apprentichip and all the qualifications that entailed and I remember the first round of refrigerant training, the 2077.
I sat that and then did the 2078 when the legislation changed. I have now sat my 2079 and I was assessed by the C&G Chief Verifier.

I have done 1 years training and assessment to become an assessor and then I have done a further years training and assessment to become a verifier (thats the person who makes sure the assessor does his job).

That is ontop of the 4 years training I have done to become a tutor.

So I can't speak for the rest but I like to think that I have done enough to be able to assess whether sombody is capeable of working with refrigerants.

I have had to fail people the qualification because the person who was doing the test was not of a high enough standard.

So again I can't speak for other trainers but I like to think that I work to a high standard and I have to prove myself to others just the same as you do.

Cheers taz.

El Padre
20-05-2009, 04:27 PM
Regarding fault finding as part of the practical assesment, we only had to find a leak, there were eight test rigs running inside the workshop with the condensing units underneath the evaporators, after about two minutes you can imagine what the systems were running like, I did'nt get a copy of all the exam questions though!

frank
20-05-2009, 09:00 PM
That's all well and good Taz, and I appreciate your knowledge, commitment and training.

However, you, as well as I, with all our previous years training and experience, are only coming to terms with the waffle that is coming out of Government about Global Warming and venting refrigerants.

Someone, either in Government or else the Government with help from an outside trade knowledgeable source, has determined that, to save the planet and to comply with all of the new rushed out legislation, all of the people currently working within the refrigeration trade are not able to do the job properly and must undergo re-training. No consideration has been given to individual personal skill level or experience....it's a blanket -'retrain them all then we know we have got everyone' scenario.

Can you honestly say that, with all your earlier training and experience, given that you have kept up with the press releases about global warming and the need to handle refrigerants better, you have learnt anything new during your assessment to become a Verifier? And how did the person assessing you get the skills to assess you?

I'm sorry, but I still feel that the whole current re-training directive is a load of twa**le.

I agree that there are a few, possibly many, that will benefit from the re-training and will come out of it with an enhanced level of understanding of the trade/science behind it, but I still feel that to blanket the whole workforce with re-training is somewhat over the top and a money making racket.

I appreciate that you have worked hard to get your position, but, how do all of these other 'Training Establishments' that seem to spring up all over the place get their Licences to certify the rest of us?

Rant over.....time for a few beers............

Peter_1
21-05-2009, 07:24 AM
Now, we are told that that is wrong, so we must recover into a bottle and not vent, because, apparently, (unproven as far a I'm concerned) it is harmful to the atmosphere, and our grandkids, grandkids may die of over heating or intense solar radiation.

If you Google CO2 myth, then you get over half a million hits. Who's right? I don't know.

Peter_1
21-05-2009, 07:25 AM
Regarding fault finding as part of the practical assesment, we only had to find a leak, there were eight test rigs running inside the workshop with the condensing units underneath the evaporators, after about two minutes you can imagine what the systems were running like, I did'nt get a copy of all the exam questions though!

Thanks El Padre

Peter_1
21-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Another thing, EN378 says that every plant containing more than 300 kg must have a leak detection.
But.... in EN378-2008, chapter 3, Article 8 you can read that every machine with more than 25 kg gas in it with a GWP>0 (so all fluorinated) must have a leak detection system.
Anyone seen this already? Is it 300 or 25 kgs?

taz24
21-05-2009, 06:35 PM
That's all well and good Taz, and I appreciate your knowledge, commitment and training.

However, you, as well as I, with all our previous years training and experience, are only coming to terms with the waffle that is coming out of Government about Global Warming and venting refrigerants.

Someone, either in Government or else the Government with help from an outside trade knowledgeable source, has determined that, to save the planet and to comply with all of the new rushed out legislation, all of the people currently working within the refrigeration trade are not able to do the job properly and must undergo re-training. No consideration has been given to individual personal skill level or experience....it's a blanket -'retrain them all then we know we have got everyone' scenario.


Can you honestly say that, with all your earlier training and experience, given that you have kept up with the press releases about global warming and the need to handle refrigerants better, you have learnt anything new during your assessment to become a Verifier? And how did the person assessing you get the skills to assess you?



Don't get me wrong Frank I'm not saying I totaly agree with what has happened. I am a realest and I know that I have to jump through the hoops that have been set up.

As for learning from the assessment process intruth it taught me nothing about fridge just assessing and the guy who assessed the assessors is a qualified Engineer with loads of letters behind his name.





I'm sorry, but I still feel that the whole current re-training directive is a load of twa**le.

I agree that there are a few, possibly many, that will benefit from the re-training and will come out of it with an enhanced level of understanding of the trade/science behind it, but I still feel that to blanket the whole workforce with re-training is somewhat over the top and a money making racket.

I appreciate that you have worked hard to get your position, but, how do all of these other 'Training Establishments' that seem to spring up all over the place get their Licences to certify the rest of us?



Now I do agree with you on that.





Rant over.....time for a few beers............


Oh yes please I'll have one with you.

Cheers taz.

multisync
21-05-2009, 08:57 PM
Someone, either in Government or else the Government with help from an outside trade knowledgeable source, has determined that, to save the planet and to comply with all of the new rushed out legislation, all of the people currently working within the refrigeration trade are not able to do the job properly and must undergo re-training. No consideration has been given to individual personal skill level or experience....it's a blanket -'retrain them all then we know we have got everyone' scenario.

.........

Given that we now have to reclaim refrigerant and it's classified as a hazzardous waste. How would you 'prove' each individual engineer currently out there working without a blanket 'retrain them all' approach.


The floor is yours to show how you can assess 40k engineers of various qualities and with various -often dubious- qualifications.

Peter_1
22-05-2009, 07:36 AM
Frank, I don't know the situation in the UK - reason why I asked those questions here - but you don't have to follow a training in Belgium.
You can go straight to the (expensive) exams (600 ) and prove what you can. Most techs don't have much problems passing these exams.

But then I make following thought, if a nurse or a bricklayer can follow a 3 day course and can succeed his/her F-gas exams, what's then the relevancy of such an exam? Do you filter then out the cowboys in our trade?

taz24
22-05-2009, 05:45 PM
Frank, I don't know the situation in the UK - reason why I asked those questions here - but you don't have to follow a training in Belgium.
You can go straight to the (expensive) exams (600 ) and prove what you can. Most techs don't have much problems passing these exams.

But then I make following thought, if a nurse or a bricklayer can follow a 3 day course and can succeed his/her F-gas exams, what's then the relevancy of such an exam? Do you filter then out the cowboys in our trade?


On that point does holding a driving licence make the driver a better driver? Does it make them follow the speed limits?

No it does not but it does prove that they had the knowledge to start with and therfor cannot plead ignorance if they are caught breaking the law.

F gas is the same.

when you have to prove yourself as knowledgeable you have no defence for not following the rules afterwards.

taz.

frank
22-05-2009, 07:11 PM
Given that we now have to reclaim refrigerant and it's classified as a hazzardous waste. How would you 'prove' each individual engineer currently out there working without a blanket 'retrain them all' approach.


The floor is yours to show how you can assess 40k engineers of various qualities and with various -often dubious- qualifications.
Given that we already have the C&G 2077 & 2078 (recovery and re-charge) exams and the CITB equivalent (renewable every 3 years so another money making racket), and that these exams were only brought in after the Kyoto Agreement was put in place, i.e. to make sure that all new engineers and existing engineers had to study and appreciate the allegedly Ozone Depletion and Global Warming consequences of refrigerant handling misuse dangers, Why do we need 2079?

Have the dangers increased? do we need to handle refrigerants in a different manner now to save the planet?

Is the biggest culprit going to be banned - Co2?




Come on....... wake up and see the light.

multisync
22-05-2009, 09:27 PM
Given that we already have the C&G 2077 & 2078 (recovery and re-charge) exams and the CITB equivalent (renewable every 3 years so another money making racket), and that these exams were only brought in after the Kyoto Agreement was put in place, i.e. to make sure that all new engineers and existing engineers had to study and appreciate the allegedly Ozone Depletion and Global Warming consequences of refrigerant handling misuse dangers, Why do we need 2079?

Have the dangers increased? do we need to handle refrigerants in a different manner now to save the planet?

Is the biggest culprit going to be banned - Co2?




Come on....... wake up and see the light.

Because you know and I know the 2078 isn't worth a w**k.