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nike123
19-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Hi guys! I have customer who want to connect his home heat pump to heat pool during mild and cool weather.
It has 45 kW heat pump with desuperheater for heating domestic hot water, and I proposed to him that he could use that heat exchanger for that purpose.
I don't have any experience in pool installations so I need diagram of ordinary pool instalation with heat exchanger for additional heating from heat pump since pool have his own heater by electricity.

I thinking to connect heat pump heat exchanger before pool electrical heater so that pool automatic could remain untouched and only regulation for desuperheater circuit should be one 3-way valve for bypassing the heat exchanger when temperature in pool has reached.
Does anyone have any schematic diagram of such existing system and how control of this combination should be done without touching pool electronics.
It should work on desuperheater only, when heat is available from heat pump and at electrical heater, when there is no heat availiable from heat pump.

chemi-cool
19-03-2009, 07:36 PM
Years ago I have made a heater, gas operated with PHE and pumps. If you are interested, I can draw you something and email it to you.

Brian_UK
19-03-2009, 11:41 PM
One thing to be aware of Nike.

Will the pool chemicals, chlorine etc., affect the metals of the desuperheater?

nike123
20-03-2009, 06:30 AM
One thing to be aware of Nike.

Will the pool chemicals, chlorine etc., affect the metals of the desuperheater?
It is not direct heat transfer. It first heat water in closed loop, and at pool side is going to be second heat exchanger for pool water heating of proper material (titane, I think). It is going to be supplied and installed by original pool equipment installations company.

nike123
20-03-2009, 06:57 AM
Years ago I have made a heater, gas operated with PHE and pumps. If you are interested, I can draw you something and email it to you.


That would be nice, thanks!

What is your opinion about if I should put heat exchanger (hat pump one) before swimming pool original electrical heater or after him, regarding of control problem?

nike123
20-03-2009, 07:17 AM
This is pool electrical heater (i think 18kW)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3419/3369141003_29c0ed1174_m_d.jpg

Anyone recognize manufacturer or model? It is blured image, something like Titane or Titanic or Titank.

This is 45kW Galletti heat pump for cooling and heating house, and it has desuperheater for heating domestic hot water, and we already made before branch for swimming pool heat exchanger.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3639/3369140583_51373509a8_d.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3450/3369962570_6595b8b668.jpg?v=0

chemi-cool
20-03-2009, 09:34 AM
Hi Nike,

Please leave me your email in my PM and I prepare it for you or you prefer it here. Whatever.

nike123
20-03-2009, 09:47 AM
Hi Nike,

Please leave me your email in my PM and I prepare it for you or you prefer it here. Whatever.

E-mail adress sent!

CHIZEL010
20-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Hi,
On a standard pool installation you will always install the heat pump before any other form of heating, so you will need to put your heat exchanger before the electric heater.
Do not recognise that electric heater, not something i have seen in this country.

chemi-cool
20-03-2009, 02:12 PM
I have noticed that the pipes entering and leaving the electric heater are not insulated. Thats odd.

Standard heat pump is a slow heater and always have a large reservoir.

How much water in the pool? [C\M]?
Is the pool indoors?
What water temp do you want to achieve?

CHIZEL010
20-03-2009, 05:01 PM
No swimming pool pipework is insulated on an indoor or outdoor pool.

chemi-cool
20-03-2009, 05:42 PM
No swimming pool pipework is insulated on an indoor or outdoor pool.


Why?

It doe's not make any sense.

Quality
20-03-2009, 07:44 PM
Why?

It doe's not make any sense.
I have never worked on pools at all before but I have seen many unisulated instalations and always wondered why pipe work was never insulated seems strange to me

CHIZEL010
21-03-2009, 10:18 AM
In a pool pipework system there are so many places where heat loss can occur. ie, sand filters which are uninsulated and can be anything up to 8 feet square, so insulating the pipework would be a bit pointless and as you are only trying to achieve temperatures of between 27 and 30 degrees c, the ambient temperature is normally not much lower than this in a majority of pool plant rooms. Most of the pool pipework is underground, often with only about 4-5 meters of pipe above ground on your average domestic pool.

chemi-cool
21-03-2009, 01:23 PM
Just for a civilized argue,

Insulation is a matter expenses, everything can be well insulated, pipes, filters, valves....

you generally heat pools in the winter [which is about 8 months a year in the UK]

Ground temp 1 meter deep will not be over 10C......

And so on. To my humble opinion it is bad practice!

nike123
21-03-2009, 06:28 PM
Sorry guys, I was been away from my computer till now.

nike123
21-03-2009, 06:53 PM
I have noticed that the pipes entering and leaving the electric heater are not insulated. Thats odd.

Standard heat pump is a slow heater and always have a large reservoir.

How much water in the pool? [C\M]?
Is the pool indoors?
What water temp do you want to achieve?


As CHIZEL010 already said, it is common practice that pool pipes are not insulated. Maybe that is because they are plastic with thick wall. Low heat loss.;)

Pool is about 8x10x2m (160^3)
Pool is outdoor in mild Mediterranean climate!
25C in cold days is target temperature. Pool is outdoors.
It is goal to use as much is possible heat from /air conditioner/heat pump, but only when air conditioner works for heating/cooling house and rest of heat should be added with electrical heater.

I think that electrical heater is of 20 kw power.

nike123
22-03-2009, 04:45 PM
This is diagram what is done and what is planed (in red).
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3612/3375289163_e89e158612_b_d.jpg

SteinarN
22-03-2009, 05:03 PM
The function of the 3-way valves is not clear from the drawing, what side is always open?

Have you considered how much heat is really available? What does the refrigeration system do normally? Heating or cooling something?

nike123
22-03-2009, 05:44 PM
The function of the 3-way valves is not clear from the drawing, what side is always open?

Have you considered how much heat is really available? What does the refrigeration system do normally? Heating or cooling something?

That depend on house heat loss and gain in different weather conditions, so main goal is use rejected heat in cooling season and use of cheaper heat in heating season. No calculation is done but maximum what desuperheater could produce is about 12-15kW when both compressor are running (system have got 2 refrigerant circuits)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3539/3375461191_80f38b2333_b_d.jpg

SteinarN
22-03-2009, 06:12 PM
Is it necessary to stop the circulation to the hot water tanks any time? Can this water be to hot? If not then I propose to do like this:

When the hot water is satisfied the valve is alowed to switch to swiming pool position if heat is required. I dont know how to make the signal for the swimming pool heat required. Is it possible to take a signal from the swimming pool heat regulator?

nike123
22-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Is it necessary to stop the circulation to the hot water tanks any time? Can this water be to hot? If not then I propose to do like this:

When the hot water is satisfied the valve is alowed to switch to swiming pool position if heat is required. I dont know how to make the signal for the swimming pool heat required. Is it possible to take a signal from the swimming pool heat regulator?


It is alredy installed like that and it is not option to remove it. Main reason for this setup is here:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3376409430_1fcfaafe29_o_d.png

nike123
22-03-2009, 06:31 PM
Duplicate post.

nike123
22-03-2009, 08:42 PM
I found something useful in Alfa Laval documentation. Any comment?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3375987265_22ba28cc97_o_d.png