c.i.t.b.2079

[doormaster2008]

well,i think this should get you all going.i have been in refrigeration now for 46 years and now in the next couple of years will have to hang up my gauges.looking at some of the test questions i will never pass the test so it seems i have been very lucky to get through life without enthalpy charts etc.why should we be told we cannot carry on without this certificate.i served my time with frigidaire and we did not have any courses,apart from electrical at the local tech.unlike today where all the apprentises are taught all this,yet when you watch some of them work they know all the answers but cant do it.so come on,give us oldies a chance.i dont want to retire yet but it looks like i have no choice

[marc5180]

well,i think this should get you all going.i have been in refrigeration now for 46 years and now in the next couple of years will have to hang up my gauges.looking at some of the test questions i will never pass the test so it seems i have been very lucky to get through life without enthalpy charts etc.why should we be told we cannot carry on without this certificate.i served my time with frigidaire and we did not have any courses,apart from electrical at the local tech.unlike today where all the apprentises are taught all this,yet when you watch some of them work they know all the answers but cant do it.so come on,give us oldies a chance.i dont want to retire yet but it looks like i have no choice

I totally agree with you and was discussing this with a colleague today.
There should be different tests, wether you are a service engineer, a maintenance enigineer or an install engineer.
At the minute i'm taking my Level 3 and it is all about design, i know as soon as i finish the course i will never use half of the stuff i have been taught and i certainly don't use it in my everyday work.

I would rather have an extensive course on fault finding and rectifying problems that i come across on VRV's,multis and water chillers etc, something that would be beneficial and i would be able to put it into practice everyday.

[Quality]

lots of people have a total mis-understanding about the f gas qualifictaion, it is not about weather you can do your job well or not its about weather you understand the environmental impact that this industry can have if systems containing these f gases are not operating efficiently and correctly. this is where the fundemental principles of simple refrigeration come in purely to ensure that people at least have a proper understanding of the equipment they are working on.

I am not saying I agree with this qualification & legislation but I live in the EU so I have no choice

[doormaster2008]

i know what you mean Marc,but what really winds me up is when i see plumbers,electricians and car mechanics who have not done the training installing air con and working on car air con. i was talking to an engineer today and he isnt going to do it either.as he said,he hasnt needed it in 40 odd years why now.

[doormaster2008]

i live in the e u as well and i can see your point but it should be the designers and manufacturers doing this not the poor engineer who is going to have to fork out hundreds of pounds to take the test and then in a couple of years they come up with another test.who is paying for this.not the companies,i,ll bet

[multisync]

This will clear out a lot of the older guy's. Some will be missed but if you do a search there was an old guy who'd been in the trade all his life and didn't know how to measure superheat.-should he be exempt too coz he's old as well??

You yourself admitted you have huge gaps in your knowledge but you don't think you should have to do an exam...Hmm sounds a bit fishy but you want us to make a case for you to be exempt unlike the whole of the rest of the industry -on what grounds would you like us to ask?

too old,
unwilling,
lazy or
unable

They say "You never stop learning in this trade" Seems like some do, or some want to...
Like the dinosaurs who resisted Corgi they soon died out.Maybe it's your time to shuffle off to the elephants' graveyard.

We have to up our game to benefit the whole industry. Training and 'proper' qualifications are the only fair way. We can't exempt 'Old Jim' coz he's sixty as that isn't fair to 'Bob' the 59 year old and from there on everyone becomes exempt.

The qualification is also aimed at those plumbers and sparks who do a bit of a/c on the side.You should be rejoicing that they will be driven out of the trade over the next few years. We need all the help we can get with business being so slow.
Kids know nothing but kids have never known anything. So that's a non starter.
Stop moaning 'poor me' that isn't going to help none. Pick up a book and start learning I re-did my 2078 last year and I learnt some stuff which I needed to know but didn't know I did!
-I've been in this over 25 years and I will have to do the test-so you can too!.

[Quality]

thanks Multisync at least some body on this forum agrees with me cheers ;)

[Quality]

With The exception of Taz

[taz24]

With The exception of Taz



:D

I have been watching this thread with intrest and was goining to keep out of it but now that I've been dragged :D in I'll comment.

I have done my 2077 training and assessment, my 2078 training and assessment and my CITB training and assessment. The new qualification is 2079 CITB Fgas and that is the next step for us all. The qualification has developed, as the requirements develop.

Whether we agree with new legislation regarding refrigerants or not the fact is we have to jump through these hoops that are set us.

In the long run it can only be for the better of the industry.

Will it stop the cowboys! maybe not, but the F gas requirements are aimed more at the end user (the customer). It is the customer who now has to account for the refrigerant on his premisses, that means he has to hire qualified engineers to carry out the work.

This will not be a quick fix, but the engineer has be accountable for years for the refrigerant he uses, the customer now has his responsibility.

Cheers taz.

.

[Grizzly]

The thought of yet more exams scares anyone who cares about their job.

Myself included but i believe any of the guys that contribute on this forum.
Are already committed enough and interested in what they do,to realise that it is necessary.

My main problem nowadays is the old time sales guys that say yea we can do that in no time and it will only take a couple of hours for 1 engineer etc.

These are the guys that are selling us all down the river!
Not my friends and colleagues in the industry.
I think Multisync has the right idea.
Until we start presenting ourselves as ENGINEERS we will be sold as consumables.
This should be viewed as a good opportunity to get our act together.
Grizzly

[Quality]

Good ponits they are guys . after all 2077 / 2078 / 2079 ,is only taken 19 years to get this far :D it has got to be a good thing for everyone, hopefully the environment

[LRAC]

This whole thread relies on one thing, are the scientist correct in their assumptions that man has caused this so called global catastrophe, or is it a natural process of earths life cycle.
Remember the mini ice age which hit the uk in 1684 ( i don't by the way), not many fridge guys about then or industry so why should we believe man has caused a rise in temperatures. Doesn't matter what we do the earth will continue on its natural cycle of events or worse than that the Sun will continue its high temperature burn.
Recent studies show that an increase in solar output can cause short-term changes in Earth's climate.

Sod 2079, 2078 they won't save the earth, the first person to invent a stable enclosed environment will, sorry just watched Highlander 3 :)

Train all you like guys you won't beat us oldies who were born fridge guys, papers say you understand it doesn't mean you can do it.

[doormaster2008]

i have read your comments with great interest,especially multisync,s.all we seem to hear about these days is global warming, so we can give them another test and double the price of refrigerant.i am not saying that engineers should not be trained properly,but it seems to me that it is just another tax on the working man.2079 has to be done by 2011,i will then be 6 months short of retireing and i certainly dont intend to fork out £500 to work for another 6 months,so i will leave it to you multisync and all your followers to save the planet and keep taking the exams because you can bet your sweet life in a few more years they will come up with another money making scam.so im with you Lrac . doormaster

[airconadam]

Does the fgas cover brazing?? surely that would be part of it due to leaks etc

adam

[Debonair Spain]

Hi all, having been absent from the U.K for over six years running a business in Spain and having completed my safe handling of gas course in 2002, what certificates would one need to install air conditioning on a site in the U.K. now.

[Quality]

Does the fgas cover brazing?? surely that would be part of it due to leaks etc

adam
Hi There part of the practical assessment involves brazing which is cut open after it has been fitted commissioned then removed.

[Quality]

Hi all, having been absent from the U.K for over six years running a business in Spain and having completed my safe handling of gas course in 2002, what certificates would one need to install air conditioning on a site in the U.K. now.
your safe handling certificate is still valid up until july 2011 but in the mean time you have until this date to get your f gas qualification

[taz24]

This whole thread relies on one thing, are the scientist correct in their assumptions that man has caused this so called global catastrophe, or is it a natural process of earths life cycle.
Remember the mini ice age which hit the uk in 1684 ( i don't by the way), not many fridge guys about then or industry so why should we believe man has caused a rise in temperatures. Doesn't matter what we do the earth will continue on its natural cycle of events or worse than that the Sun will continue its high temperature burn.
Recent studies show that an increase in solar output can cause short-term changes in Earth's climate.

Sod 2079, 2078 they won't save the earth, the first person to invent a stable enclosed environment will, sorry just watched Highlander 3 :)

Train all you like guys you won't beat us oldies who were born fridge guys, papers say you understand it doesn't mean you can do it.


I agree to some degree what you say, but and there is always a but :).

I,m a bit more pragmatic about it. I was born into a fridgies family and I joke that I was suckled on ammonia :eek:.

I can mend any fridge any where with anything and I can do that because I have learnt over nearly 30 years most of the tricks of the trade.

Do I belive in global warming? or do I think we are in a world cycle? I don't know and in truth I don't care. If we are contributing to global warming and we curb that contrabution a little then we may slow down the effect of our presence, if we are in a world cycle and we have no effect, so be it. If we are contributing just 1% the climate change and we made small changes, won't that be for the best?

taz.

.

[taz24]

True cost of 2079????

What should it cost you?

I know what it costs in money but the training and assessment is not done quickly.

Say you do 4 days training and 1 day examination / assessments.

How much does that cost you or your company?

even doing the learning by distance learning and then just one days assessment or
a short course followed by assessment.

Cheapest is going to be about £300 to £400 and the dearest will be £800 to £1000.

Is it the cost of the 2079 that people are objecting to or is it the fact that we have
to prove our caperbilities to sombody else?

taz.

.

[Debonair Spain]

Hi all, i personally think that England is taking the lead in the global warming thing but it is coming at a cost to the engineer or the companies who have to pay. I have a very small air con business in Spain and nothing is being done over here to my knowledge about re-claiming of gases or preventing leakage like the CITB 2079. The ammount of units i have found leaks on and repaired is tremendous. The first step towards fighting global warming, is to stop DIY shops and supermarkets selling air conditioning to the general public. The whole of the eu countries have to work together at the same time to move forward otherwise what is the point in implementing this in one country and not the rest especially when most of the gas leakage problems are in other countries.

[LRAC]

If we are contributing just 1% the climate change and we made small changes, won't that be for the best?
taz.
.

I totally agree taz, so why in another current thread do we have an a/c system that by all accounts looses 2Kg per day and the poster has knowingly refilled the system. He has lost more gas than i have in the last 10 years trying too find a leak.

At what point should somebody have posted on the thread "stop putting refrigerant in it NOW". Was this gross incompetency or pier pressure forcing the engineer to keep the customer going, in so doing venting to atmosphere by now over 50Kg of atmosphere polluting chemicals. That 50Kg will take approximately 5 years in reaching the upper atmosphere, so already he has contributed until 2014 with his quick fill it and scarper.

Should DEFRA see the post http://http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17755 would they look at this and take it as evidence of gross environmental damage. We do not all operate in this manner but now i'm going to have to fork out £ 900 quid and never let a drop of refrigerent vent knowing it would leak again.

[El Padre]

The timing seems unfortunate for your good self, but overall I believe that the 2079 is how the 2078 should have been, there is 80 questions and a 65% pass requirement, so after a days refresher course somebody with your experience would not have a problem, for the rest of us dont forget that it is only the C.I.T.B. qualification that will require renewing, the thinking mans option has got to be City & Guilds!

A client of mine has expressed an interest for me to obtain a brazing certificate, this is a two day course that requires renewing every three years, in this case I think that they are taking the ****!

Good Luck to you in retirement, the retirement age will probably be about 80 by/if the time I get there.

[El Padre]

True cost of 2079????

What should it cost you?

I know what it costs in money but the training and assessment is not done quickly.

Say you do 4 days training and 1 day examination / assessments.

How much does that cost you or your company?

even doing the learning by distance learning and then just one days assessment or
a short course followed by assessment.

Cheapest is going to be about £300 to £400 and the dearest will be £800 to £1000.

Is it the cost of the 2079 that people are objecting to or is it the fact that we have
to prove our caperbilities to sombody else?

taz.

.
Interesting last point Taz, but lets not forget lost earnings in the total cost, which would more than double that highest figure, I have personally booked a three day course and am really looking forward to it!

[tonyh]

Hi all, i personally think that England is taking the lead in the global warming thing but it is coming at a cost to the engineer or the companies who have to pay. I have a very small air con business in Spain and nothing is being done over here to my knowledge about re-claiming of gases or preventing leakage like the CITB 2079.

Am I wrong in thinking that the new F-Gas 2079 is supposed to be for the whole of the EU countries and not just the UK or is it a case again of only the UK having to comply and everyone else sticks two fingers up.

[Debonair Spain]

Hi tonyh i am afraid so, everytime i meet with a Daikin or Panasonic rep, i ask this question about regulations but they shrug their shoulders and say not yet.

[doormaster2008]

taz24.i read your reply with interest,especially about the customers responsibility.when are they going to be informed.apart from me telling them what has to be done regarding leak testing annually etc they have not been notified by anyone else.so who is not doing thier job.

[doormaster2008]

taz.its not the cost that i object to,it is the fact that you have to keep repeating them every couple of years,and the fact that it is only us in the u.k.that seem to do it.

[tonyh]

Hi Doormaster, there's another one that not many people know about and has not been widely published all businesses need to be registered with Refcom by July 2009 at a cost of around £100 and annual registration fee's. And so the money go round band wagon goes on. IN THE UK AT LEAST

[Quality]

Hi Doormaster, there's another one that not many people know about and has not been widely published all businesses need to be registered with Refcom by July 2009 at a cost of around £100 and annual registration fee's. And so the money go round band wagon goes on. IN THE UK AT LEAST
What makes things even more interesting is that I contacted them on tuesday and they could not tell me how to register. They simply took my details and said they would get in touch. A bit of a joke really

[tonyh]

Hi Quality, I spoke to the Refcom chap at RAC09 he said nothing has been finnalised except the date, we just burst out laughing he also agreed that the rest of eu had no plans for 2079, so why have we been told that this is an EU Regulation is Brussels just having a laugh with the UK.

[Debonair Spain]

Oh dear i sense a revolution.

[multisync]

I think it's a real bonus that it's just the UK (even though it's not of course as the Viking nations will testify) we get so many foreigners coming over that now the playing field will be level for the first time. No ticket no job -go back home or take the course..

Hopefully it will never be a EU certification or it will just go like 2078 - unregulated and totally worthless

Stop moaning and see the advantages

[Voyager]

Hopefully it will never be a EU certification or it will just go like 2078 - unregulated and totally worthless



My experience in the Auto A/C field proves just how worthless 2078 is and how worthless 2079 will be.

Car owners don't care about GWP. If it leaks, they get it recharged but 90% won't pay to have the leak traced and repaired until the compressor seizes up.

The worst offenders in the UK are the car breaker yards - I have spoken to every one of them in a 20 mile radius of my home town, explaining the GWP and health hazards of R12/R134a and offering an evacuation service for just £10 per vehicle.
Not one of them has taken me up on the offer.
Most say they just cut the pipes. One guy even claimed to have his own equipment, but when I asked if it was manual kit or automatic he said "manual, it's called a stihl saw".

[LRAC]

Stop moaning and see the advantages

Oh yes i see the advantages of the one man band operating under the radar system with his cheap charges.

The only way to stop this is if the wholesalers of refrigerant refuses the sale should the engineer not have the correct registration.

Pie in the sky Multisync loose a sale you must be joking, yes the advantages are operate under the radar and make a fortune while we are going bust paying for training and no work.

[multisync]

My experience in the Auto A/C field proves just how worthless 2078 is and how worthless 2079 will be.

Car owners don't care about GWP. If it leaks, they get it recharged but 90% won't pay to have the leak traced and repaired until the compressor seizes up.

The worst offenders in the UK are the car breaker yards - I have spoken to every one of them in a 20 mile radius of my home town, explaining the GWP and health hazards of R12/R134a and offering an evacuation service for just £10 per vehicle.
Not one of them has taken me up on the offer.
Most say they just cut the pipes. One guy even claimed to have his own equipment, but when I asked if it was manual kit or automatic he said "manual, it's called a stihl saw".

There are still cowboy's in the gas trade -there will always be some somewhere. Of course you could just report them..Or get that Macintyre bloke in on it
Get one done and the rest will start to think about your tenner a pop.

However if properly regulated and put out to a suitable creditable body (*cough* not refcom ) then it can make a big difference to the vast majority of work. Once the trade gets up to speed then the end user has no alternative but to do the same.

Without a registered 2079 card (and a company registration too) you can't buy refrigerant. This is the blood of the industry, clamp that vein and most rogues will die off. Hit the trade suppliers hard if they fail to adhere to the regs and you just won't get refrigerant.

This has gone too far now to turn back. The trade has to embrace this and fight together to keep it and maintain it to a very high standard,

Pushing against this is just siding with the cowboys.

[multisync]

The only way to stop this is if the wholesalers of refrigerant refuses the sale should the engineer not have the correct registration.

.

That is part of the legislation from what we have been told . I really can see D&W or HRP breaking this one somehow.

[LRAC]

That is part of the legislation from what we have been told . I really can see D&W or HRP breaking this one somehow.

They will all break it, will they ask the engineer for his qualifications if he's buying a TEV or solenoid valve or even a drier, loose the sale i don't think so. There all up the creek with big losses and they want the quick buck back.

A line must be drawn if not i'm going in to wholesale like Dell Boy says "Rodney you buy i'll sell sell sell".

[Quality]

HRP was supposed to have done this voluntry in 2007/8 it was in all the trade mags but obviously they never did

[tonyh]

I think it's a real bonus that it's just the UK (even though it's not of course as the Viking nations will testify) we get so many foreigners coming over that now the playing field will be level for the first time. No ticket no job -go back home or take the course..

Hopefully it will never be a EU certification or it will just go like 2078 - unregulated and totally worthless

Hi Multisync, You have just closed the door on your argument for 2079 as from my understanding it is supposed to be an EU certification to minimise leakage, from what your saying every other country in the EU can carry on as they are any tom, fred and harry can work on refrigeration and air con unregulated and gas leaks will not change. As to the wholesalers not selling to people without certification 2078 already exists, i am not against training it's the constant lies and unnessessery money grabing that gets my goat. As to people moaning I suppose its alright if you are an employee who gets there training, exspesses and wages paid for by the company

[El Padre]

I agree with Multisync, the new regulations will be very beneficial to anybody approaching a company for the first time, a lot of business's out there will start to have their systems maintained even if only to comply. Doormaster objects to the fact of having to renew his qualifications, it is only the C.I.T.B. scheme that will require renewing, as the City & Guilds will last unless it gets updated in the future, I did the 2078 12 or 13 years ago, Electricians have the 17th edition, Heating engineers Corgi, I hope that the extra business opportunities created by this will more than compensate for the initial cost. We should take a leaf out of the training institutions books, and take advantage of the marketing benefits!

[multisync]

Hi Multisync, You have just closed the door on your argument for 2079 as from my understanding it is supposed to be an EU certification to minimise leakage, from what your saying every other country in the EU can carry on as they are any tom, fred and harry can work on refrigeration and air con unregulated and gas leaks will not change. As to the wholesalers not selling to people without certification 2078 already exists, i am not against training it's the constant lies and unnessessery money grabing that gets my goat. As to people moaning I suppose its alright if you are an employee who gets there training, exspesses and wages paid for by the company

I haven't closed my argument in any way shape or form. We have absolutely no control on what happens in the rest of Europe -that is for the individual member states to impose the regulations. Some will with vigour -the Nordic states for example are leaders- whilst some may stray -the Slavic nations perhaps. The French and Germans will adhere.

The benefit of those in other countries not complying to us here in the UK is that the economic migrants won't be able to get off the boat and start work. (just like Australia for example) If you haven't got the 2079 you can't work.

The point about wholesalers is that before it was voluntary now it will be mandatory. That is the major difference which will enforce the wholesalers to comply. They just will not be allowed to sell to non registered companies or individuals. They are already accountable for all the gas they sell and return. The next stage for them is a register.
However a simple check of the register against their sales by the regulator and they will be hung drawn and quartered

This is the best thing to happen to our industry for many years, stay behind and scrabble around those who want the crappy bodge jobs and cash only -just leave all the good work for those who comply. ;-)

[Voyager]

The point about wholesalers is that before it was voluntary now it will be mandatory. That is the major difference which will enforce the wholesalers to comply. They just will not be allowed to sell to non registered companies or individuals. They are already accountable for all the gas they sell and return. The next stage for them is a register.
However a simple check of the register against their sales by the regulator and they will be hung drawn and quartered

Lets hope they do a better job than CORGI did with gas engineers. Anybody can walk in to a merchant and buy parts down to component level, and the dealers never ask for qualifications - you can even buy gas fires off the shelf at places like B&Q.

[multisync]

Lets hope they do a better job than CORGI did with gas engineers. Anybody can walk in to a merchant and buy parts down to component level, and the dealers never ask for qualifications - you can even buy gas fires off the shelf at places like B&Q.

A few things spring to mind.

1 of course we can only talk in an ideal world
2 Corgi have just lost the franchise
3 B&Q do not sell self install kits any more.
4 the gas parts is voluntary not mandatory

However if you were in a wholesalers and saw them selling to un registered fridgies phone DEFRA and complain. Phone REFCOM, phone the local rag and tell them they are selling hazardous waste illegally.

[doormaster2008]

hi multisync.have you done 2079 yet,only i was talking to one of the training centres yesterday and the failure rate is about 65%.it just gets better

[doormaster2008]

Hi Multisync, You have just closed the door on your argument for 2079 as from my understanding it is supposed to be an EU certification to minimise leakage, from what your saying every other country in the EU can carry on as they are any tom, fred and harry can work on refrigeration and air con unregulated and gas leaks will not change. As to the wholesalers not selling to people without certification 2078 already exists, i am not against training it's the constant lies and unnessessery money grabing that gets my goat. As to people moaning I suppose its alright if you are an employee who gets there training, exspesses and wages paid for by the company
your right tonyh but how many times will the companies pay for their engineers to do 2079,as i have just heard off a very reliable source[training official]that the failure rate is 65%.its getting more expensive all the time.apparently the practical is about 3.5hrs and the theory you do on a computor,which takes about 90mins.you need 100% on the practical and 68% in the theory.

[multisync]

hi multisync.have you done 2079 yet,only i was talking to one of the training centres yesterday and the failure rate is about 65%.it just gets better

Firstly no one of us here have.

Secondly absloutely fantastic that the failure rate is so high. This tells us two things

1 They are actually taking it seriously rather than the 'turn up for a pass' 2078 approach.

2 The trade is seriously underskilled.

I recently did the Toshiba SHRM course and we were all told "There will be a test at the end"

I laughed and thought that old chestnut. Imagine my horror when the instructor pulled out the test paper!
Speaking to one from the old SWM guys who told me they were going to make this test much harder as the old 'day out with free sarnies, turn up and pass' approach makes little sense if an engineer rocks up to a client and says "Don't worry missy I'm Tosh certified" but slept through the course.

[Nadeem146]

i agree with multisunc very well said the 2079 is an oppurtunity

[Quality]

If you go for the CITB f gas certification the exam is open book hence the faliure rate will probably be less although you will have to be re-assessed every 5 years

[nevgee]

Wether we like it or not we're going to have to jump through these hoops as they come at us. As for knowledge of refrigeration and A/c; ph charts etc. I would have thought any person who had an interest in their profession would surely be interested in finding out how a refrigeration system actualy worked. Surely we all should have some know how of superheat and subcooling as a minimum.PH diagrams and the like can be fun ;)

Understanding the basic theory and principles helps with diagnostics and gives a better understanding of the systems as a whole, your work efficiency improves, a better job is done, more respect plus greater satisfaction in your work. Happy bunnies all around.
As A/C & Refrig Engineers we should have a wide ranging engineering knowledge covering most of the building services M&E. This presents a better view of us for the client and in return hopefully some respect and acknowledgement of our profession.

Costs: "f" Gas and Refcom?

My current understanding of REFCOM is a self appointed "jobs for the boys " club set up by HVCA, another elitist club, which was the "favourite" chosen by the government to hold the register.

Currently the registration fee is £300.00 and you have to get it right first time or else it will cost you more.
Plus an annual membership fee of £250.00

"f" Gas C&G 2079 training costs £500 to £1200 plus 2 to 5 days out of work.

Apparently there are some 40,000 people who will be required to go through these hoops.

That's something like £20m to £48m likely to be handed over to the trainers and assessors. Of which there are only 20 some of them. Over a two year period that means these assessors will be receiving between £1m and £2.4m each!

It seems to me that we're being fleeced and as usual the the instigators and administrators are doing the fleecing. While the working guy at the bottom of the food chain once again gets clobbered.:(
I can only hope that this round of red tape has some effect in ridding the industry of the DIY jobbing guy, and that we can be in a position to beggin to charge a realistic price for our service. For too long now has this industry been running in fear of being undercut at the negotiating table. Fingers crossed we might get a chance to make money instead of having to earn it...well you lot at least, as I hope to be retiring in 5 -10 maybe 15 years ( assuming my pension picks up.. ha)

Always have faith and remember that every silver lining has a gloomy cloud with it.:D

[airconadam]

I take it LRAC you was on about my post with the 2kg of refrigerant loss per day(post 20) and totally see where your coming from but leaving a system under pressure for 5days with nitro and helium,no pressure drop what so ever! and no signs of leaks what was we suppose to do???????

adam

[Voyager]

Costs: "f" Gas and Refcom?
......................
Apparently there are some 40,000 people who will be required to go through these hoops...........................the trainers and assessors. Of which there are only 20 some of them. Over a two year period that means these assessors will be .....................

required to test 20+ fridgies per week in a 48 week year.

As the practical assessment takes 4 hours, there ain't no way it's gonna happen.

[nevgee]

........ there ain't no way it's gonna happen.


I'm sure you're quite right on that one ... well certainly not in the time scale expected. ... What about our freinds in the EU .. are they going down the same compliance route with equal vigour?

Happy days .... where's my meds ...

[Voyager]

I don't think these 'f gas' regs have been thought through very well.

I already have C&G 6048 vehicle A/C service & repair, and C&G 2078 safe handling.

Now I will have to get 2079 as well so that I can buy from a wholesaler.

BUT ..... there is not one single car on the market which takes more than 1.75kg of refrigerant, and the 2079 regs only apply to systems of 3kg or more.

:confused:

[multisync]

I don't think these 'f gas' regs have been thought through very well.

I already have C&G 6048 vehicle A/C service & repair, and C&G 2078 safe handling.

Now I will have to get 2079 as well so that I can buy from a wholesaler.

BUT ..... there is not one single car on the market which takes more than 1.75kg of refrigerant, and the 2079 regs only apply to systems of 3kg or more.

:confused:


http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/sectors/sustainability/fgases/page28889.html#MAC_Directive
http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file30125.pdf

[multisync]

http://www.ior.org.uk/ior_/images/pdf/SM%20f%20gas%20training%2012.pdf

[El Padre]

Greetings,
I have just completed the2079 successfully and can confirm that most regular posters on this site will not have a problem at all, I cannot understand the relevance of other EU member states not complying unless you have clients abroad, the regulations will force UK business's to treat their AC systems with the same respect as they do with their boilers, its a win, win situation for us! I agree with most coments made regarding REFCOM the mandatory register for July this year is still not in place, they have known about this for some time and seem far from being prepared!

Cheers.

[tonyh]

I cannot understand the relevance of other EU member states not complying unless you have clients abroad
The relevance is to stop leaks.

[El Padre]

The relevance is to stop leaks.

Thanks for clarifying that, my personal ethos is to do, what I can do and is under my control as opposed to worrying what others are not doing.

Several European countries have far stricter regulations than ours allready.

[icehouse]

Sorry to butt in this conversation as I am located in the states, but reading the original posters statement makes me respond.
I have been in this trade for 44 years, and teaching it over 25.
Just because someone has time in, does not mean he is qualified. Now before everyone gets up in arms, hear me out.
The manager of the local branch of a large supply house lives near me, and we meet grocery shopping and discuss what's new.
He asks me why are so many units being returned for credit when it is obvious that installation was done poorly.
I said that I understand having worked in Supply. as a Manufacturers representative as well as a technician.
Too many think they know what is going on because they have "X" amount of years doing it. When they are asked why they did not take the classes we offer, the answer is always the same "What do I need that sh*t for I have been doing it for years".
My answer is why not do it the right way instead of cursing out the Supply House when the return proves that you were at fault ?
When an Instructor at the union hall I invited a controls manufacture to give a class insuring the attendees were "Journeymen" mechanics. During break he said to me almost half had no clue of what he was talking about. The lecture "Controls in series and parallel".

[LRAC]

This is all confusing what the hell am i qualified in heres the C&G certificates.

20748
20742
20781

What NVQ level is that??????????????????????? or am i done 4.

[colinmcmanus]

Have just started teaching the skills and knowledge required for the C&G 2079. What are you all worried about. If you trained to NVQ then you should be well qualified to pass both the GOLA knowledge questions and complete the practcal test. All we want in the industry is to get rid of the split bashers and cowboys who have ruined a once great trade.

[charlie.1]

Just done my 2079 and have to say its not that bad, just read and understand the c&g questions before answering as a few people tripped up including myself. If it will help i can post what questions i can remember.

[paul brough]

Hi I took the CITB for handling and brazing 3 years ago, when it expired I booked a course with local national supplier and took a City & Guilds 1 day refresher. At an open evening on car ac the training guy told me the cert. I had was not DERFa approved and would be invalid next year. I have tried to speak to defra and C & G but no one knows; any one know more than me.
Paul

[taz24]

Hi I took the CITB for handling and brazing 3 years ago, when it expired I booked a course with local national supplier and took a City & Guilds 1 day refresher. At an open evening on car ac the training guy told me the cert. I had was not DERFa approved and would be invalid next year. I have tried to speak to defra and C & G but no one knows; any one know more than me.
Paul


It's hard to say without knowing the specifics but
if you have a City & Guilds 2078 you will be valid for another year or so untill the 2079 comes into full effect.
If you have a CITB then you will be current untill it runs out.

Anyother qual is not valid.

taz.

.

[DALO]

After reading some of your posts i cant resist getting involved. Im a POME in Australia so im no expert on what the regulations are now in the UK.
If you have C&G 2078 or NVQ is it a case of just doing
a couple of days exams????
What if you dont have either? Does this mean you cant take the exam and your out of the industry???
Australia already has all this place and Artic the goverment run protection racket are rolling the money in.
Arctic pretty much sold this idea to idiots like Multisync.
Lets get all the cowboys out of the industry get the Sparkies and plumbers out more money for us etc.
Multisync has obviously never read the 'Emperor and his new clothes'
Lets just put things in perspective. Would an electrician or plumber really know how to work on a Parrallel pack,Ammonia or cascade systems?? I dont think so, so arent these industries self regulating. Installing wall mounted splits is work that most of us dont want to do anyway.
Now you here nothing from Arctic apart from the odd leaflet every now and again, but after every 2 years you do get a nice threatening letter telling you that you owe them money to renew your license.
Millions of dollars is going into their coffers every year and nothing is being put back into the industry. How about funding some of these so called beneficial training courses themselves? Id wager if the responsibility was on the company or Arctic themselves to pay for it then we wouldnt be reading any of these threads would we?
How about giving the profits to charity?
I know some of you naive guys are out there thinking your going to line your pockets, but its not going to happen. All your doing is enrolling on courses getting ripped off, after which there will be more refresher courses and once thats done more still. As the mechanical refrigeration system has not changed in 100 years does this mean that none of us were trained correctly during our apprenticeships. Maybe we need to get our money back.
As i know its law that once youve stood trial for murder and been acquitted then you can never be tried again.
So why should a tradesmen be put on trial on numerous occasions.

[multisync]

After reading some of your posts i cant resist getting involved. Im a POME in Australia so im no expert on what the regulations are now in the UK.


Possibly not the best person to pontificate on the Uk situation then ...?



If you have C&G 2078 or NVQ is it a case of just doinga couple of days exams????


Pretty much


What if you dont have either? Does this mean you cant take the exam and your out of the industry???


Depends on how good you are. The exam is open to all from what I understand.There are no grandfather rights for this one . If you can't pass the 2079 then maybe you should be out of the industry?



Australia already has all this place and Artic the goverment run protection racket are rolling the money in.

Then leave the country -stop being a whinging Pom,


Arctic pretty much sold this idea to idiots like Multisync.

Thanks for that. However the AU restrictive laws were there before you went. If you don't like it leave.


Lets get all the cowboys out of the industry get the Sparkies and plumbers out more money for us etc.

Is this a statement? -if so, how would you propose to do this? If not without a lic then you cannot buy refrigerant (legally) Sparkies will go back to subbying the work out..
There will always be a % on the fringes. The size of that % is down to
1 The regulating body
2 The industry itself.

As a company we are going to adopt a policy of telling everyone we come into contact with that this law is now in place and they can only use registered companies with registered employees. How that will effect the market, who knows but if we all do this then the word will quickly spread.


Multisync has obviously never read the 'Emperor and his new clothes'

Your point being?



Lets just put things in perspective.
Would an electrician or plumber really know how to work on a Parrallel pack,Ammonia or cascade systems?? I dont think so, so arent these industries self regulating. Installing wall mounted splits is work that most of us dont want to do anyway.


You have a very narrow and insular view. From your lofty height as a glorified night case cleaner, then yes only 'skilled fridgies do fridge work'
There are more split bashers than commercial fridge engineers
So 'most' do split bashing and alike. How should they be regulated as they also handle refrigerant waste ?
Does the industry not have a duty of care to the UK? Should it not put itself up as highly trained , regulated and opperating with due Diligence?



Now you here nothing from Arctic apart from the odd leaflet every now and again, but after every 2 years you do get a nice threatening letter telling you that you owe them money to renew your license.

What relevance is this to UK?



Millions of dollars is going into their coffers every year and nothing is being put back into the industry. How about funding some of these so called beneficial training courses themselves?

What relevance is this to the UK ?


Id wager if the responsibility was on the company or Arctic themselves to pay for it then we wouldnt be reading any of these threads would we?

What relevance is this to the UK?


How about giving the profits to charity?

It would presumably go to finance the running of the system then rest would go to the G.ment.


I know some of you naive guys are out there thinking your going to line your pockets, but its not going to happen. All your doing is enrolling on courses getting ripped off, after which there will be more refresher courses and once thats done more still.

If the failure rate is 65% then it's hardly a 'refresher' is it?


As the mechanical refrigeration system has not changed in 100 years does this mean that none of us were trained correctly during our apprenticeships.

Who knows how good/bad your apprenticeship was?
The amount of proper Uk apprenticeships now on offer is unlikely to run into four figures. Thus the vast majority that have been entering into the industry in the Uk are of low quality & poorly trained.


Maybe we need to get our money back.

Give 'em a ring.


As i know its law that once youve stood trial for murder and been acquitted then you can never be tried again.
So why should a tradesmen be put on trial on numerous occasions.


Once you have sucessfully completed 2079 then that stands. However things do change and new refrigerants enter the market. Gas engineers have to have regular 'refresher' courses as their industry adpts to new rules and regulations. Uk has been very relaxed over the years which has allowed bad practice and untrained people to operate within it.

If it is properly regulated then this system can work. (as I said previously).
Narrow minded and insular attitudes are outdated and unhelpful to the progression from being a trade to a skill. Formal qualifications are but a mere part of dragging usup to a level not seen for 30+ years (IE only skilled fridge engineers do fridge)

[DALO]

Well multystink or whatever your name is. The relevance to the UK is this. Australia implemented their system before the UK. Thus i think it would be a resonable guinea pig. Oh let me guess there is a totally different agenda in the UK and every British institution does things for nothing and the goodness of their heart.

Why are you so scared of these shonky tradesmen? Surely if your as good as you claim to be your employer will be able to distinguish between yourself and the impostors. Or are you just useless and like collecting pieces of paper and ID cards. Dont hide behing qualifications fat boy youll soon get found out.

How about you stop whinging get out there and start installing. If you dont want to do it then shut up and stop whinging about people pinching your livelihood.
If you dont like it leave the industry, noone will miss you your just a number.
I find it a little coincidental that your sat down on your photograph.
Just so you know i was in Australia well before Arctick came along and i can tell you this. We have a state license in every state. Arctick then masterminded a federal license. Why bother when you already have one?
The answer is now you have to pay twice.
There was a major contrast of opinion and many aussies refused to subscribe.
So its an offence to buy gas without one. Funnily enough its not an offence for any member of the public to buy a precharged unit from the local electrical store. Thats hardly regulating the industry is it?
Im all for training people. Ive got more qualifications than most, but dont waste my time showing me how to use a recovery machine or brazing every 3 years just to fuel a fiscal agenda.

[multisync]

Well multystink or whatever your name is. The relevance to the UK is this. Australia implemented their system before the UK. Thus i think it would be a resonable guinea pig. Oh let me guess there is a totally different agenda in the UK and every British institution does things for nothing and the goodness of their heart.


OK, I guess I will have to respond. I am tad disappointed that you feel the need to try to insult..I guess you have your reasons to be infantile....

So yes AU has A system but that doesn't mean it is the only one or the best/worst one or even the one we will follow. The Norwegian system is far more stringent -perhaps we are working toward that? I personally couldn't give a flying fig about the cost. The implimation is more important.


Why are you so scared of these shonky tradesmen?

Point out where I indicate I am scared?


Surely if your as good as you claim to be your employer will be able to distinguish between yourself and the impostors.

I can and so can my boss. However yellow pages can't, prospective customers can't. Cowboy's know this and avoid the legalities of proper refrigerant reclaim, disposal etc etc.Do you think the industry should not address this issue? If so how would YOU stop the cowboys ?


Or are you just useless and like collecting pieces of paper and ID cards. Dont hide behing qualifications fat boy youll soon get found out.

As I say I believe i am a reasonable engineer. Perhaps not up to case cleaning but hey ho.I believe most apprenticeships will include paper and this is just another one.


How about you stop whinging get out there and start installing. If you dont want to do it then shut up and stop whinging about people pinching your livelihood.
If you dont like it leave the industry, noone will miss you your just a number.


You are obviously rambling or posting after a few beers? I don't remember wingeing -I do remember you wingeing on every post thus far. Perhaps you're confused (drink again??)

I do worry about non skilled, poorly trained sparkies and plumbers etc nicking ALL our livelihoods. I am not so selfish thinking "No plumber can do what I do" in an I'm alright jack attitude.


I find it a little coincidental that your sat down on your photograph.

Coincidental to what exactly?



Just so you know i was in Australia well before Arctick came along and i can tell you this. We have a state license in every state. Arctick then masterminded a federal license. Why bother when you already have one?
The answer is now you have to pay twice.
There was a major contrast of opinion and many aussies refused to subscribe.

So you pay twice -you can afford it can't you? All your ranting is about money. You have not indicated once that you care one iota about anyone else let alone the industry itself...



So its an offence to buy gas without one. Funnily enough its not an offence for any member of the public to buy a precharged unit from the local electrical store. Thats hardly regulating the industry is it?

It's an offence to install it as stated by the guidelines. However not an offence to buy a fridge either, so what is your point?


Im all for training people.

Make your mind up! This is all about training people to a sufficient level. The old 2078 was a turn up sign in -here's your certificate. Utterly useless. I have seen so many idiots young and old coming out of the various colleges and trade schools who have been so bad they are a complete menace. I would not let them loose on their own fridge let alone a customer (who's paying for the **** ups).

The colleges are letting the industry down so badly just taking the money and not failing those who are unable or unwilling to be trained. Finally the G.ment has said enough, from now on you must train to a level of competence and it must be proven. We should all rejoice that the unskilled are going to be found out.
We must all hope and prey the trade schools and colleges do their bit and keep the pass mark high and not let it become the joke that is 2078. (I do have my doubts they can be trusted, of course...)



Ive got more qualifications than most,

I'm alright Jack !


but dont waste my time showing me how to use a recovery machine or brazing every 3 years just to fuel a fiscal agenda.

I do not believe there will be a 3 year renewal to that level. Maybe an update on regulations etc and a quick exam to make sure you haven't forgot (or that the previous examination company wasn't cutting corners for money etc)

This is going to happen. Probably nowhere nearly as good as it should be..but it will happen none the less..

[Quality]

I gonna break the ice here we all have opinions our own of course but have no choice in what we are forced into legislativley , but how the bloody hell do you reply to a post and qoute only part of a previous post like multisync has done :) pleases tell all:o

[frank]

Well multystink or whatever your name is. The relevance to the UK is this. Australia implemented their system before the UK. Thus i think it would be a resonable guinea pig. Oh let me guess there is a totally different agenda in the UK and every British institution does things for nothing and the goodness of their heart.

Why are you so scared of these shonky tradesmen? Surely if your as good as you claim to be your employer will be able to distinguish between yourself and the impostors. Or are you just useless and like collecting pieces of paper and ID cards. Dont hide behing qualifications fat boy youll soon get found out.

How about you stop whinging get out there and start installing. If you dont want to do it then shut up and stop whinging about people pinching your livelihood.
If you dont like it leave the industry, noone will miss you your just a number.
I find it a little coincidental that your sat down on your photograph.
Just so you know i was in Australia well before Arctick came along and i can tell you this. We have a state license in every state. Arctick then masterminded a federal license. Why bother when you already have one?
The answer is now you have to pay twice.
There was a major contrast of opinion and many aussies refused to subscribe.
So its an offence to buy gas without one. Funnily enough its not an offence for any member of the public to buy a precharged unit from the local electrical store. Thats hardly regulating the industry is it?
Im all for training people. Ive got more qualifications than most, but dont waste my time showing me how to use a recovery machine or brazing every 3 years just to fuel a fiscal agenda.
Dear Mr DALO, or whatever your name is..........

Please do not insult other members of this forum.....state your case, argue, make your point etc, but, don't make personal attacks. We all have our own opinions, some you may agree with, others you may not. If you do not agree with a members opinion, it does not give you the right to make insults. We are generally a friendly, helpful membership - please do not spoil it.

[andy32]

I just started out in the industry , on my first day of college the guy might as been speaking french , but i soon picked it up mate and no doubt you will as well , i would not worry about it

[nike123]

but how the bloody hell do you reply to a post and qoute only part of a previous post like multisync has done :) pleases tell all:o

You mean like this.

When you hit quote button whole previous post is quoted.
Than you could erase part of text bearing in mind to not delete quote mark in square parentheses at begin of quote and /quote in square parentheses at end of quote.

If you wish to quote subsequently than you have quote tool at message composition window toolbar.
Mark text you wish to quote and hit quote tool.

Practice by hitting Preview post button
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode

[Quality]

You mean like this.

Thats it

Practice by hitting Preview post button
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode

I Think Ive got the hang of it

[Quality]

;) Thanks for that Nike123

[DALO]

Ok site moderator Frank. I appologise for my disparaging remarks on this site towards Multisink.
However he started the whinging theme so how about giving him the yellow card too.
Moving on. What i find astonishing is this. If the industry is crying out for mandatory legislations to be implemented and thats what the workforce want then why is there never a referendum for the guys in the industry to vote on. Its always some confounded moron who dreams up an idea and disguises his hidden agenda of money raising into a training course.
Now look im probably the average joe in my profession and ive got around 16 years of qualifications most of them voluntary, but does that really make me any more employable than the next man??? Does it mean i have a higher IQ level or im going to do the right thing? Am i going to hacksaw a copper pipe and let the refrigerant go to the sky? Or once ive been on this course will it completely change my behaviour?
I know umpteen guys who will cut a corner to make a quick profit.
How many times have you installed interconnecting cable multisink? Did you test it with a megger? Do you install the right circuit breaker? Check the fault current or fault loop impedance?? Ill bet there is plenty of fridgies out there doing their own wiring putting an electrician out of work.
My point is this, I would go on a training course every week but why should i pay for it. Companies are making enough profit, governments are taking their cuts so why dont they pay for it. Why dont we have in house training by our companies.
The answer is simple, the company you work for doesnt give a sod, theyd sooner put a 3rd or 4th year apprentice in a van and cut their wage bill.

While people like the aforementioned are very easily led its easy for these guys to take your money.
I think they call it dog whistling politics.
I find your attitude towards Doormaster terrible having served this industry much longer than you have. I dont think you give a sod about the industry you've just got a god complex, think your better than anyone who doesnt have the right paperwork and just because you have nothing better to do with your time and money think everybody else should do the same.
Thats your choice and good if its voluntary, but why should we take away Doormasters livliehood just because he doesnt know the difference between an isothermal or Adiabatic process??? What does it matter if he can recover refrigerant into a bottle and hang a cassette unit???? Its not rocket science.

[frank]

Ok site moderator Frank. I appologise for my disparaging remarks on this site towards Multisink.
However he started the whinging theme so how about giving him the yellow card too.

Dear Mr DALO..... Thank you for your apology, it is appreciated.

I did not give you a yellow card and I won't be giving Multisync a yellow card.

I politely asked you not to insult other members, who have opinions that you do not agree with.

Behave or be banned.... the choice is yours.

[DALO]

Ok Frank im charging myself with bringing the game into disrepute and will be contacting the football Association in due course.
Im bored of this thread anyway.
I shall start a new one straight away.