PDA

View Full Version : Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives







shogun7
03-05-2004, 11:27 PM
I was wondering if anyone has used this additive, and what is your conclusion. If you are not familiar with this go here:

http://www.aplus2000.net/Femp_Report.pdf :)

absrbrtek
03-05-2004, 11:58 PM
Snake Oil!!! If the manufacturers could squeeze out another 10% by adding a magic bullit, dont you think they would all be on the band wagon? This has been around for years under various scemes, it always comes back to Snake Oil!!!

Odomis
12-02-2008, 06:22 AM
That is NOT true that PROA's are Snake Oil. They have proven themselves in the 90's and many have improved or new products have come out that do much better than the originals, reflected the latest in chemical technology. The Department of Energy found that PROA's worked and recommend's the use of PROA's. The chlorine free products out now are considered by many the best on the market. Products like ArtiKool and Thermamax are a couple of chlorine free example products on the market. If you research the facts you will find that these products do indeed work from everything to large units to something small like a car air conditioners. I have seen as much as a 17 degree drop on car ac units treated with one of these PROA's that I mentioned. Please check the facts before calling something snake oil with all due respect. It does indeed work!

The MG Pony
13-02-2008, 01:35 PM
well whip that technical data on out and well have a gander till then I'd concure another scam. Nothing will ever beat a properly chosen oil in a well designed system, any thing more is simply a contaminant!

BTY 4 years old necrothread!

Odomis
09-08-2008, 04:02 AM
Good maintenance is very important and should always be done. To use a PROA is something that should be done after system maintenance has been done and only then in order to get maximum available saving from the unit.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
As for data, the FEMP, a branch of the Department of Energy, report is available on line by many of the suppliers of Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives (PROA). Some of these suppliers, like ArtiKool for example, have a page where you can download test study results and how to do a test of the PROA yourself.
<o:p></o:p>
There are additives for automobile engines to help them run better and the same is true now with air conditioning. Train and I believe Copeland have approved their use as well. Better yet ASHRAE published in 1998 information on how potential for energy savings using PROA exist. Any study done by these experts are pretty strong endorsements and should be enough for any individual that PROA's do indeed work.

The MG Pony
09-08-2008, 04:17 AM
So where is the data? whip it on out here on the forum, you make the hypothesis, now you need to provide evidence for it.

WINJA
12-08-2008, 07:51 AM
well whip that technical data on out and well have a gander till then I'd concure another scam. Nothing will ever beat a properly chosen oil in a well designed system, any thing more is simply a contaminant!

BTY 4 years old necrothread!
is spectraline a contaminant?:o

The MG Pony
12-08-2008, 11:29 AM
Yes, yes it is, dye's should be the absalute last desperate attempt at isolating the leak!

WINJA
13-08-2008, 09:02 AM
Yes, yes it is, dye's should be the absalute last desperate attempt at isolating the leak!
I worked at a company that put dye in brand new installations with no leaks , we had a jug of refrigerant at work with the dye in it already, and i think it was copeland(i may stand corrected ) who said spectraline is acceptable , therefore i dont think it is a contaminant

Odomis
15-08-2008, 06:04 PM
MG Pony, I have provided where you can acquire data. For example ASHRAE publication in 1998, the Department of Energy FEMP document that recommends there use. A letter by Traine as well can be found on line. Why don't you show an organization of that caliber I have referred to that states PROA is harmful.

lucky131
23-08-2008, 03:04 PM
i have read a great deal about the thoughts of Refrigeration engineers about Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives., Many thoughts have been to simply write this stuff off as "snake oil". Some of you guys have backed the science behind the theory but doubted that they would work in practise and others (not many) have supported them.
Last month i witnessed the use of 30ml of a product called Permafrost being applied to a 5 year old split system 8KW air-conditioner. The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

It was one of the most impressive tests i have ever witnessed. Added to this was the fact that the compressor was distinctly quieter.

Can anyone tell me what possibly could cause such a dynamic change in this split system other than what PROA's are designed to do? I am cynical and skeptical in most things, but i am afraid that seeing is believing and unless someone can tell me what else could possibly have caused the change i mentioned above, then maybe the 70% of PROA skeptics might want to re-think there position.

Am i alone in this matter or are there others out there who have witnessed PROA's in action?

The MG Pony
23-08-2008, 06:37 PM
i have read a great deal about the thoughts of Refrigeration engineers about Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives., Many thoughts have been to simply write this stuff off as "snake oil". Some of you guys have backed the science behind the theory but doubted that they would work in practise and others (not many) have supported them.
Last month i witnessed the use of 30ml of a product called Permafrost being applied to a 5 year old split system 8KW air-conditioner. The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

It was one of the most impressive tests i have ever witnessed. Added to this was the fact that the compressor was distinctly quieter.

Can anyone tell me what possibly could cause such a dynamic change in this split system other than what PROA's are designed to do? I am cynical and skeptical in most things, but i am afraid that seeing is believing and unless someone can tell me what else could possibly have caused the change i mentioned above, then maybe the 70% of PROA skeptics might want to re-think there position.

Am i alone in this matter or are there others out there who have witnessed PROA's in action?

they thin out the oil, so you get a surge of good performance followed by catastrophic failure. You get the same results by changing the oil out to a thinner one!

Or you could get the same long term performance boost by putting in fresh clean oil and finding out why the unit had trouble in the first place. There have been a good deal of threads explaining why the stuff = epic fail from techs who have kept working with the equipment.

I've seen it work, but I all so know how it works, I could have dumped rubbing alcohol in and gotten the same resualt frankly.

Odomis
27-08-2008, 06:55 AM
MG Pony, these PROA's I have seen mentioned in this forum here do not cause catastrophic failure and are oils themselves. Lucky131 and myself have seen the benefiting results of the use of PROA. I have mentioned true authorities above in air conditioning that approve PROA use. Why don't you show data or organizations of authority, as I provided per your request, to support your accusations?

nh3wizard
27-08-2008, 05:44 PM
MG Pony, I have provided where you can acquire data. For example ASHRAE publication in 1998, the Department of Energy FEMP document that recommends there use. A letter by Traine as well can be found on line. Why don't you show an organization of that caliber I have referred to that states PROA is harmful.

MG Pony has asked several times for you to provide the data and prove your point, if your so sold on this product, prove it to the rest of us that it works, not just what the manufacturer says and their reports that says it works, what about the end-users, lets say they give 5 test sites that it worked, but they dont say how many failed.

Just a thought...

keepitcool
27-08-2008, 06:21 PM
What about manufactures backing their warranty if these products are used. I highly doubt it. That is where the true test lies. These guys know what works in their compressors. I have not heard of ANY industrial compressor that will honor a warranty issue if additives were use in the machine.

The MG Pony
28-08-2008, 02:17 AM
MG Pony has asked several times for you to provide the data and prove your point, if your so sold on this product, prove it to the rest of us that it works, not just what the manufacturer says and their reports that says it works, what about the end-users, lets say they give 5 test sites that it worked, but they dont say how many failed.

Just a thought...

Thanks was starting to feel lonely here!

Exactly they say it works and it does, just not for verry long. Most cuase sever electroplating and reduced oil vicosity that makes the innitial problem even worse.

Again any thing is possible when you don't know don't know what your talking about! I'll stick with relying on proper system building to get me power savings thanks!

wambat
28-08-2008, 03:27 AM
I was wondering if anyone has used this additive, and what is your conclusion. If you are not familiar with this go here:

http://www.aplus2000.net/Femp_Report.pdf :)

TRY this it's interesting
http://www.frigitech.com/general_summary.htm

The MG Pony
28-08-2008, 06:03 PM
TRY this it's interesting
http://www.frigitech.com/general_summary.htm

Wambat look at the date mate, 2004 don't think he's around any more lol.

just snake oil pushers trying to pawn off the crap! FYI Wambat, that proa stuff is crap less the unit was made in 1920 and is planned on being replaced any ways. Total garbage for any thing less then that!

Odomis
29-08-2008, 11:57 PM
MG Pony, I have told you where to get data. This time I will give you the sites so you do not even have to Google the information. If you read the FEMP report found on many sites on the internet, but until I post 15 post or more I can not provide you sites on this forum. So, all I can do to direct you is to tell you to go to the websites of ArtiKool, Frigitech, and natural gas and electric to get the proof you have asked to have. These sites have test studies letters from Carrier stating PROA's are safe and will not void, or the ASHREA report of 1998 found at the ArtiKool website too on the download page they have down at the bottom of that site. I saw a letter from an engineer at Copeland that Enercon hads a copy of that letter and should be able to provide it if you contact them. Based on the restrictions placed upon me in this forum I have shown you where to get the proof you have requested, and there is many more places too if you look. I and lucky131 have used PROA's and we have seen great results, so there are two testimonials provided right there.

Have you ever used a PROA? Can you show one organization of authority, as I have provided to support PROA's, for your stand regarding PROA's? All you do is put down PROA's without showing anything to support your side and as a result your statements seem very empty. Maybe try one of these name brands and you might learn something instead of making off the cuff remarks you can not support with any organizations of authority as I have provide for you here. Show where the DOE, or ASHREA show negitive results, as I have shown where they speak positive of PROA's. They are the authorities in these matters.

wambat
30-08-2008, 02:14 AM
Wambat look at the date mate, 2004 don't think he's around any more lol.

just snake oil pushers trying to pawn off the crap! FYI Wambat, that proa stuff is crap less the unit was made in 1920 and is planned on being replaced any ways. Total garbage for any thing less then that!

I just told you to take a look "MATE" By the why when was the last time you mighht have been wrong! I don't like your tone and I'm not your "MATE" In the future if you can't talk to me in a civil tounge then don't say anything. Who the hell do you think you are! As the saying goes people can disagree agreeable

wambat
30-08-2008, 02:44 AM
This from the department of energy in conclusion of the report :
Unfortunately, the PROA does not lend itself to a definite means of estimating energy savings for specific
applications. Potential users who are interested in the PROA technology, but are still skeptical, are encouraged
to try one of the following approaches.
Ask for a guarantee. If a salesman is promising a 20% savings, ask him to guarantee at least a 10% savings or a
refund of the treatment price. At least one manufacturer has indicated that they will guarantee at least a 10%
energy savings on units at least 2 years old or the treatment cost will be refunded.
This seems to indicate that there is a possibility of some energy savings so if you are interested make the mfg. of the product prove it with a gaurantee or a refund , that's a lot less then some off the wall statement that it's snake oil and of being so sure of it that it gives one the right to talk down to another member (NO RESPECT) :(

US Iceman
30-08-2008, 04:37 AM
If I may interject a comment here...

Let's keep it civil, OK? This is not directed at anyone in particular.

The way to prove an argument is to provide facts that are represented in a reasonable manner. If someone disagrees, then simply provide counter arguments and facts to support any claims.

Somewhere in the middle of dissenting views lies the truth.;)

Odomis
31-08-2008, 11:48 PM
Treatment of AC systems with a PROA is a variable, just like treating motor loads with a capacitor. The savings from use of a PROA is dependant on how old the system is you are treating. The older the system, the greater the savings. Older systems often need to have the dryer/filter changed because of the cleaning of the coils that the PROA does that will collect in the dryers. I have use the ArtiKool download site to get information on installation and testing procedures which I find to be good to use regardless of the PROA you are using. Others working with PROA's may also find the information found there useful as well.