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abbasi
19-04-2004, 08:19 AM
U can mail me at abbasi@sabro.com.pk for full copy of this research paper (which includes graphs also) that I presented at 11th HVACR conference in Karachi last month


Muhammad Ali Khalid

R & D Engineer

S.a Bros Pvt Limited



Alternative Refrigerant of R-22

ABSTRACT

Worldwide reactions to the debates on global warming and ozone depletion have led to social responses and legislative measures which have serious implications for refrigeration and associated industries. It is a criminal offence to release refrigerants to atmosphere and all existing system charges must be reclaimed or recovered by approved companies for either re-use, recycling or controlled destruction. Legislation is constantly changing and therefore Comfort cannot be held responsible for inaccuracies in the information here presented.
Opportunities for improved environmental performance include the wider acceptance of refrigerants other than R-22 for increased use of active heat recovery and new cycles in industrial applications, and integration of heating and cooling provision in industries.
This paper considers the choice and availability of R417A instead of R22, To avoid losing the simplicity in design and construction which was possible with R417A.


R407C is a ternary blend of hydro fluorocarbon or HFC compounds, comprising 23% of R32, 25% of R125 and 52% of R134a. It has no chlorine content, no ozone depletion potential, and only a modest direct global warming potential



THE EASY CHOICE
R417A
Replaces R-22 in Multiple Applications
Save Time and Save Money
with a Quick and Easy Conversion to R417A

• R417A is a unique non-ozone depleting long-term replacement for R22.
• R417A can replace R22 without unit modification.
• R417A can replace R22 with no change of oil.
• R417A can be used in compressors designed for R22.
• R417A can be used with Mineral, AB or POE oils.
• R417A is non-flammable and rated Al by ASHRAE.
• R417A is comparable to R22 in terms of performance across the R22 temperature range.
• R417A can be topped off following repair of a system leak.
• R417A is used in a wide variety of applications including:

Air Conditioning Split Systems Dairy Chillers Refrigerated Transport
Cold Stores Reach-in Storage Self-Contained Display Cabinets
Supermarket Pak Systems Bakery Applications Walk-in Coolers
•








Comparison of R-22 Alternatives

Properties R22 R417A R407C R410A
Composition R22 134a/125/600 134/125/32 125/32
ODP 0.05 0 0 0
Boiling Point (F') -41.4 -43.3 -46.4 -59.9
Temperature Glide (R) 0 10.0 13.3 <0.4
Critical Temperature 205 194 187 162
Condensing Temperature
at 375 psi (absolute) 145 154 136 109
Ref. Capacity (%) 100 97 100 142
C.O.P. (%) 100 112 95 95
DischargeGasTemp.(R)-16.2 -18 -10.8
Lubricants MO,AB,POE POE POE POE



10% Lower Power Consumption than R407C
Measurement R417A R407C
Ambient Temperature 71.6"F 71.60F
Condensing Temperature 105.0"F 102.6"F
High Pressure 197 psia 214 psia
Evaporator Air Off Temperature 48.1"F 47.20F
Refrigerant Charge 3 lb 6 oz 3 lb 1oz
Power Consumption 1.65 kW 1.83 kW



R417A is a zeotropic three-component blend, which we recommend, be transferred from the cylinder in the liquid phase. In any operational leak scenario, the system may be topped up with R417A without significant effect on performance.
R417A is an effective refrigerant for process cooling. R417A has demonstrated its effectiveness at higher temperatures, giving the added benefit of lower discharge temperatures.
R417A is a well-suited, proven refrigerant for cold store applications. R417A works well from margarine and fruit storage at around +3ēC, to medium temperature storage at -30ēC. In many instances lower compressor discharge temperatures have been reported which can be a bonus where systems are running close to the recommended maximum.
Alternative Refrigerants
R290 - Pure propane, a hydrocarbon (HC) an efficient naturally occurring refrigerant with similar properties to R22, but has no ozone depletion potential and an extremely low global warming potential. Whilst it is environmentally safe, it is also highly flammable and must only be used after careful consideration is given to safety. - ODP = 0, GWP = 3.
Ammonia - A highly efficient refrigerant, that has been used in industrial applications for many years and with success. It is however, highly toxic and very careful consideration must be given to any design or application.


Cooling Capacity
Unit R22 R417A R407C
Condenser Air inlet °C
36.2 35.8 35.8
Condenser Air outlet °C
48.2 46.8 47.6
Evaporator Air inlet °C
23.9 24.3 24.3
Evaporator Air outlet °C
14.2 14.8 14.6
Discharge temperature °C
98.5 72.7 88.6
Condensation pressure bar bar/°C
19.5/52.5 19.4/55.5 23.7/55.5
Suction pressure bar bar/°C
4.7/4.5 4.4/7.6 4.6/6
Humidity out %
38 39 41
Humidity in %
63 67 65
Capacity KW 14.7 13.8 14.6
Capacity change %
0 -6 -1



(R417A) -
Energy Efficiency

7kg refrigerant charge

11% Better COP than R407C



Unit R22 R417A R407C
Power requirement kW 5.1 4.6 5.4
Capacity kW 14.7 13.8 14.6
COP 2.88 3.00
2.70
%Difference
0% 4% -7%













• Train A/C Units manufactured by Stone
• open drive compressors
• No System changes made
Refrigerant R22 R417A
Refrigerant Charge (Kg) 14 16.5
Ambient temp. (ēC) 31 31
Temp. of evaporator air off(ēC) 13.2 13.8
Temp. of evaporator air on(ēC) 24.4 24.4
Temp. of liquid line (ēC) 46.2 42.8
Compressor discharge temperature (ēC) 89.2 55.8
Casing temperature (ē C) 47.2 25







What Do You Want from Your R22
Replacement ?
• Use the same Equipment without engineeringchanges
• Use the same oil type
• Fast, simple conversion
• Use in both new and existing equipment
• Sufficient Capacity
• At Least the Same Energy Efficiency
• Reliability
• Sufficient Capacity
• Same Energy Efficiency
• Reliability
• Same Toxicity
• Flammability Classification as R22
• Zero Ozone Depleting Potential
• Use the same Equipment without engineering changes
• Use the same oil type
• Fast, simple conversion
• Use in both new and existing equipment


ASHRAE Number R417A

ASHRAE Safety Classification A1

A=
Least Toxic Group
1=
Non-flammable as formulated or in a
worst case leak scenario







R134A is a single hydrofluorocarbon or HFC compound. It has no chlorine content, no ozone depletion potential, and only a modest global warming potential. - ODP = 0, GWP = 1300

R407C is a ternary blend of hydrofluorocarbon or HFC compounds, comprising 23% of R32, 25% of R125 and 52% of R134a. It has no chlorine content, no ozone depletion potential, and only a modest direct global warming potential. - ODP = 0, GWP = 1610

R410A is a binary blend of hydrofluorocarbon or HFC compounds, comprising 50% of R32 and 50% of R125) it has no chlorine content, no ozone depletion potential, and only a modest global warming potential. - ODP = 0, GWP 1890

R417A is the zero ODP replacement for R22 suitable for new equipment and as a drop-in replacement for existing systems.
There are currently no restrictions on equipment or use of the following refrigerants: R134A, R407C, R410A, and R417A.


Note
Terminologies mentioned as ODP and GWP have following meaning.
ODP - The ODP or Ozone Depletion Potential, is the potential for a single molecule of the refrigerant to destroy the Ozone Layer. All of the refrigerants use R11 as a datum reference and thus R11 has an ODP of 1.0. The less the value of the ODP the better the refrigerant is for the ozone layer and therefore the environment.
GWP - The GWP, or Global Warming Potential, is a measurement of how much effect the given refrigerant will have on Global Warming in relation to Carbon Dioxide, where CO2 has a GWP of 1. This is usually measured over a 100-year period. In this case the lower the value of GWP the better the refrigerant is for the environment.

:confused:

yangchenchen
01-04-2009, 09:13 AM
Very good R417A knowledge, thanks a lot.

NoNickName
01-04-2009, 11:23 AM
your email address is wrong. Please check, because it's bouncing back.

hyperion
01-04-2009, 08:37 PM
Useful information, thanks.

aircon50
18-04-2009, 10:39 PM
Thanks Abbasi. Very useful info. We have a few R22 systems that will quite possibly ultimately require attention, and therefore a change of refrigerant. Most of them are a/c splits with hermetic compressor, and oil change always seems fraught with problems! One question though - given that R417A contains R600a, does that affect its flammability? Regards, Graham

nike123
19-04-2009, 12:34 AM
Thanks Abbasi. Very useful info. We have a few R22 systems that will quite possibly ultimately require attention, and therefore a change of refrigerant. Most of them are a/c splits with hermetic compressor, and oil change always seems fraught with problems! One question though - given that R417A contains R600a, does that affect its flammability? Regards, Graham




• R417A is non-flammable and rated Al by ASHRAE.


...............................

NoNickName
02-05-2009, 09:57 AM
http://www.arkema-inc.com/literature/pdf/581.pdf

Abbasi and all, it looks like a refrigerant producer does not agree with you.
Food for thoughts

hyperion
03-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Noticed that the details shown by said manufacturer are grossly out of date as the last update to the information was 2005.
The item about changing the oil is somewhat concerning, as it was thought that R417A was a drop-in not requiring an oil change. Perhaps others can advise us of their findings.

Andy P
22-06-2009, 11:04 AM
Noticed that the details shown by said manufacturer are grossly out of date as the last update to the information was 2005.
The item about changing the oil is somewhat concerning, as it was thought that R417A was a drop-in not requiring an oil change. Perhaps others can advise us of their findings.
I think the issue with oil can be summed up by saying it is not necessary to change the oil from mineral to POE, but if you choose to do so you might see some performance benefits. This gives great flexibility - if it is difficult to drain oil from the system then you don't need to, but if the compressor oil can be changed then do so. It is not necessary to flush every trace of old oil out the whole system, which also makes the process much easier.

It's also been reported that site tests with R417A generally show better CoP performance than lab tests - possibly because the lab tests compare different refrigerants at identical conditions, whereas in the real world if the capacity is a bit less then the discharge pressure will be a bit lower. The only true measures of performance are 1) does it get cold enough and 2) how many kWh per day. If the capacity is slightly reduced but the CoP is better - which seems to be what Abbasi reported - then the unit will run for a longer time, but overall will use less kWh, so is cheaper to run.

That's a good paper Abbasi - thanks

Cheers

Andy P

rotar
23-06-2009, 07:26 AM
What is the price difference comparing R22 with R417A & R407C ?

Which is recommended for usage for not more than 10 years?

croc1774
14-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Hi i found some information from, daikin,mitsi,fugi,etc regarding R417a drop.
Think you will find this intrestining but file to big to post, so pm me with email and will forward on.
Or if Admin can help please get in touch
regards croccy

nike123
16-01-2010, 02:22 PM
Hi i found some information from, daikin,mitsi,fugi,etc regarding R417a drop.
Think you will find this intrestining but file to big to post, so pm me with email and will forward on.
Or if Admin can help please get in touch
regards croccy
Upload your file on some file sharing server (rapidshare,mediafire etc..) and post link here in form like this:

www example com

croc1774
16-01-2010, 04:41 PM
See what you make of this guys.
croc

al
16-01-2010, 06:02 PM
croc

thanks for the info
al

Coolie
19-01-2010, 09:15 PM
test...mmmmmmmmmm

Coolie
19-01-2010, 09:18 PM
i cant seem to post something that consists of anything longer than about a paragraph......

Have a lot to say about 417

croc1774
20-01-2010, 01:27 PM
then say it lol:p

Coolie
20-01-2010, 05:34 PM
then say it lol:p

I was getting a syntax error when trying to post my views in a long reply.....

For some reason it only let me post a short msg....

Ivan006
20-01-2010, 10:49 PM
Thanks Abbasi for the information. It's very useful.

grizwold50
22-01-2010, 02:03 PM
hi has anyone retrofitted an R22 cooled incubator with R417A or tried R422A. i have retrofitted an old liquid chiller R22 to R422a that ranges from -40.c to 150.c i found it romped it down in temperature, but the head pressure was a little high.

paul_h
26-01-2010, 03:47 AM
I was getting a syntax error when trying to post my views in a long reply.....

For some reason it only let me post a short msg....
That happened to me a while back too.
Try doing it in .txt form and then attaching, uploading or linking it.

robref
05-02-2010, 12:34 PM
Hi Guys, I am going to retrofit an R22 Carrier Chiller 30DQ-120 with recip compressor. I am quite mixed up if will use the R417A or R422D. Also seen that no one is confirming anything about oil change and oil seals. Also heared that the refrigerant charge should not be charged the same weight as stipultaed per chiller nameplate but a 10% lower.

Please advise

flyjohnnyk
05-02-2010, 08:44 PM
does anyone know where i can find a PT chart for ethane(R-170):confused:

NoNickName
05-02-2010, 09:28 PM
does anyone know where i can find a PT chart for ethane(R-170):confused:

Coolpack software

fitz2180
23-02-2010, 04:09 PM
I have used 417 in several reach in coolers with good results.

However, I have had some issues when it is used in small under counter units and when it is used in equipment that has one condenser but two evaporators. In these cases, the TXV seems to over feed and cannot be adjsted down enough to make a difference... Any help or advise in this direction would be welcome!

Thanks

Thetraveler1963
27-12-2010, 07:17 AM
Abbasi and all, it looks like a refrigerant producer does not agree with you.
Food for thoughts

I would be careful listening to any manufacturer of a refrigerant with their own horse in the race talking about another refrigerant. They have no incentive to answer truthfully.
:D

abbasi
06-09-2011, 11:13 AM
engineerali@gmail.com
(you can email on above address) sorry for inconvenience caused

abbasi
06-09-2011, 11:19 AM
thanks for your knowledgeable info and appreciation

chillerman2006
08-09-2011, 12:47 AM
Off topic - needed removing