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jg/oz
30-03-2004, 10:29 PM
Friends, would there be any interest in a general discussion on MACs and future use of MACs in the world and the ongoing pollution of F gasses from
this equipment. As far as I can see Europe is in for a totally new development in MACs and looking into the Non use of HFC in these application as of 2009/2013.
Interesting the EU is voting on the 31/3/2004 (today) what the future will be for MACS worldwide.
Let me know what you think and will start a hefty discussion.
jg/oz

baker
31-03-2004, 02:36 AM
I am interested in this subject, but it is one where emotion and economic convenience come first, and practical and scientific considerations come last, unfortunately.

It is fair enough to argue whether cricket or baseball is better, since there is no science involved, but it appears impossible to have a rational discussion about hydrocarbons in refrigeration.

At least in Australia we normally have the option of comparing European and US trends, and choosing the best. Our brief flirtation with R407C before quickly changing to R410A is just an example of the changes that we will soon undergo. We live in interesting times.

Karl Hofmann
31-03-2004, 09:10 AM
If the car manufacturers could make a system that could hold in the refrigerant for the expected life of the car, then there would be no need to discuss this, but they can't....Or wont. In the UK, I would expect to change a corroded condenser every three to four years on the same Ford Mondeo (Contour) releasind 750g of R134a the alloy condenser is supported on a mild steel bracket and has a piece of foam rubber jammed in to hold water to ensure the condenser is always damp. Things dont get much better if you buy a BMW or a Merc either, so I would say if the system is going to leak, the let it leak a harmless refrigerant. LOL If you have an engine fire at least when the condenser or pipes melt the CO2 will help extinguish the fire. :p

HCs are fine in sealed refrigeration, but not under the bonnet

Peter Croxall
31-03-2004, 02:35 PM
Hi Karl
I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, but, :D

If HC refrigerants were used in auto A/C’s, they would not only be environmentally friendly, they would also be quite efficient. As for them being flammable, well the engine compartment is a potential bomb as it is and some cars use propane as a fuel anyway.
As you rightly pointed out, it is the poor choice of fittings and pipework that is the problem. (i.e. NO LEAKS, NO PROBLEM) It is just a thought, maybe it would be possible to locate the fittings most likely to leak below the engine or behind the bulkhead. The only pipes in the engine compartment would be connected to the compressor and these could be made from stainless steel. (High cost though, but very strong). What do you think ??? :confused:

chemi-cool
31-03-2004, 03:20 PM
doing car AC for some years and still do on occaisions - only in summer, I would like to enlight a few aspects,

first, it was and still is one of the biggest problems - pipes.
rubber lasts the longer but the connections leak, aluminium pipes, braeke in time from the vibrations. SS pipes and copper, imposible, SS will crack and break, copper will harden from vibrations and break.
aluminium has no "memory", the best metal pipe.

second, flammability, since we seat on a tank full of petrol, I dont see any special risks with the AC unit, the hot water in the rediator are more dangerous. nut mention moving parts.

car AC installers have a big problem. no one in car production line think of where to run the pipes so some times in order to connect yuor gages, you burn your hand if not loose a piece on the fan ( sounds familiar karl?).
some times its real comfortable to deal with them.

compressor can be under or above or its hard to find its location.
no standards what so ever.I just hope for cars AC techs, that one day the manufacturers will be forced to work under the supervision of international standard

in a country like israel where every car should be equiped with AC by law, its a must.


chemi

Peter_1
31-03-2004, 07:29 PM
Friends, would there be any interest in a general discussion on MACs and future use of MACs in the world and the ongoing pollution of F gasses from
this equipment. As far as I can see Europe is in for a totally new development in MACs and looking into the Non use of HFC in these application as of 2009/2013.
Interesting the EU is voting on the 31/3/2004 (today) what the future will be for MACS worldwide.
Let me know what you think and will start a hefty discussion.
jg/oz

Before I can vote, what is MAC?

chemi-cool
31-03-2004, 09:42 PM
Mobile Air Condition



chemi

baker
01-04-2004, 03:02 AM
I have read that with the shift to 42V electrical systems for cars, the vehicle makers could go for an electrically driven hermetic compressor. There is talk of a combined starter motor / alternator on the ring gear, with more accessories electrically driven - e.g. power steering, water pump, a/c compressor.

jg/oz
01-04-2004, 03:58 AM
Friend,
To bring you in the picture MAC or MVAC or BigMac stands nowadays for motor-vehicle AC systems. These systems are at present the biggest CFC and HFC
polluters worldwide and the EU Government is doing something about it.

On 31/3 last (yesterday) the first reading in EU Parliament was to vote for new HFC
laws in MACs as being only allowed after 2011 ( in the whole of Europe for new cars).
By then all probably ( due to Global Warming) every car will be factory supplied with a
MAC system.

The Parliament in first reading also deceided to allow only working fluids (refrigerants)
with A GWP ( Global Warming Potential--HFC 134a is 1300) of 50 or less which narrows
the available fluids to CO2 or HCs or if 'Chemicalia" comes up with something better
a Low GW HFC, USA thought that R152a would be usable (GWP 130) but as you can see not acceptable at present but you never know what might happen with "Chemicalia's" power.

Any-way R152a is also flammble so the step from R152a to HCs ( GWP 3) is very small.

In Australia ( where I live) we have used approx 80 Ton of HCs so far in Macs since 1995 and have 350.000 cars on the road ( with a bank )-( refrigerant in the MAC systems) of 60 Ton. No accidents reported and these are non retrofitted Macs
a straight drop in of a HC mix 60/40 ( propane/iso-butane) or Care 30.

hope this helps

jg/oz

DaBit
01-04-2004, 12:25 PM
Personally I like the transcritical CO2 system. The gas cooler can run at much higher temperatures than the average condenser, which can help bringing coolant temperature to nominal levels quicker. Also, CO2 is cheap and safe.

The refrigeration system itself is different from 'classic' systems, but not more complex.

Also, when going to mass production, I doubt that these systems are more expensive than the classic ones.

If CO2 is not an option: HC's instead. They are cheap and good. Flammable? Come on, a car consists of metal and flammable goods (oil, petrol, LPG, plastics, etc.). Who cares about another 300g of HC's if there is 40kg worth of fuel in the car?

Also, to start a fire there must be fuel, oxidizer and ignition. If the HC AC system breaks, the refrigerant is likely to leak out very slow or very fast. In both cases we do not get a LEL < concentration < UEL concentration. And even if the concentration gets >LEL and <UEL, we still need an ignition source. Which is likely not there during the time of the leakage.

Karl Hofmann
01-04-2004, 08:47 PM
Although the principles of MVAC are the same are identical to domestic ac or refrigeration, there are considerable differences in the execution of these principles.

I must also point out that the vessels that contain petrol and oils are so designed to contain these substances, fuel tanks are subjected to exhaustive crush and impact testing. On impact the inertia switch will shut down the fuel pump, fuel lines do not enter the passenger compartment.

I agree with jg/oz that motor vehicle ac systems are a massive contribution to the release of refrigerants and should be adressed. As I have said before the reason that they contribute so much to this release is that they are designed to leak. Although alloy pipes are fine for Chemi in a land where rain is rare, it is a curse here in the land of the road gritter and fixing alloy components with steel clips is a boob that even a schoolboy shouldn't make.

Given that MVAC systems have more holes in them than a well known brand of tea bag, I would ask who in their right mind would suggest that it would be a good idea to put in a flamable refrigerant. I have seen evaporators dump all of their charge out through the vents on both Volvos and RangeRovers whilst on test, consider the implications if you were lighting a ciggy just as that happened. Even small evaporator leaks could cause a build up in an heater box, just waiting for an stray spark from a blower motor. Before charging a system, I always test with OFN, how many other MVAC guys do likewise, most of them simply charge the system and say "If it doesn't stay in bring it back and I'll have another look" This car could well be then parked in a closed garage, perhaps with a pit where the vapours could collect. R134a would be bad enough, but an HC?

Condensers are my bread and butter and are so thin and weak that it is not uncommon for ford condensers to bow and touch the radiator under the force of air when the car is at speed, the condenser is also the first major component to be damaged in a front end shunt, this can be a parking ding, again anothe uncontrolled release of flamable vapours with HC's

OK much of what I say could be dismissed as a lot of what ifs, but lets put it this way. All of us on this board are intelligent enough to safely work on our own heating boiler, even if we dont have a card to say so. So I would ask if you lived in a block of flats, would you trust the guy who lives below you to repair his?

jg/oz
01-04-2004, 09:18 PM
Friend,
We all have the perception set up by "Chemicalia" that HCs in refrigeration or AC are dangerous while on the otherhand we now have approx 100 million fridges and freezers in the EU with the stuff in it. (HC Iso-butane). So far
no accidents with people who have had no training in how to use these appliances. Same applies for MACs with HCs Riskassessments tell us that deadly accidents with HCs are impossible.The charge is approx 1/3 of the HFC charge due to density differences. It's more riskfull to attend traffic than it is
to use HCs in your system. There are approx 350 million cars now which could be easely retro-fitted to a totally neutral fluid ( GWP 3) and work basically better in performance (also tested) , highly dangerous oils (like PAGs) could be avoided and the world GW Problem for MACs was solved. Unfortunately
" Chemicalia" will than miss out on a multibillion dollar profit Industry and that will be fought vigirously in the future.

WE are at interesting times --HCs have been used and are good, cost is extremely Low and venting in air is No problem.

Just see the relevant inconsistencies in HCs, if you go to a petrol station with eg 20 browsers all in function, it could be possible (and legal) to fill an LPG cylinder at approx 8 m from the browser by opening an orifice in the LPG
bottle of 1.63 mm and blow out LPG gas continiously till it starts spitting
LPG droplets. Nobody sees this as dangerous , it's legal.

I advocate HCs because they are cheap, environmentally friendly, and you need people with a bit of brains to be able to use them.( I do not make nor am employed by the LPG Industry- simply retired)

By the way in the US approx 600 Ton of HCs are used each year and mainly
used by DIY ( Do it yourselvers) to fill up their AC systems. ????

jg/oz

Have a look at:

http://www.euractiv.com/cgi-bin/cgint.exe/1?204&OIDN=1507479&-tt=EN

chemi-cool
01-04-2004, 09:31 PM
hi karl,

well, I agree with what you say except that we had 4 inches of rain this winter :D wet year.

I can add that manufacturers are considering weight as major issue on cars and thats why pipes are so thin.

mind you, on agrcaltural machinery its the opposite. heavy pipes and regular condensers so much less problems.

the problem you have with alloy is the salt on the roads and if you look closely on the rosds in UK, you will notice that there are big spaces between the stones on the top layer, it causes vibrations to the cars systems.

i've noticed it the first time I was drivind on your roads ( maybe cause I was on the wrong side :D )

but no, I would not like like to drive a car, light a cigarrette and fly through the sunroof.

chemi

Karl Hofmann
01-04-2004, 09:34 PM
JG The point that I am trying to make is that domestic refrigeration is sealed, automotive ac leaks like a seive. It is unusual for a fridge to be touched by anyone other than a professional, automotive is fair game for anyone with a rubber pipe and a gas bottle. As I stated to you on the aircondition.com board I am not a great fan of breathing R134a either (It kills Californians) but replacing it with HCs would only be another "Quick fix" I think that CO2 has a brighter future.

If anyone has any HC's I would be delighted to put it to very good use in my brand new gas BBQ :D

Karl Hofmann
01-04-2004, 09:45 PM
Chemi,

I think that the issue of fractured pipes could be adressed better by clipping the pipes up. I've never seen a fractured brake pipe or fuel pipe.

Weight saving?....Hmmm. I still think it is an exercise in making things cheap and nasty so that the manufacturers can make good money on spares and service, not that I should complain :D

baker
02-04-2004, 04:42 AM
Two things.

I believe that the Toyota Prius uses an electric compressor for A/C. Does anyone have any more details?

Can someone please give a brief description of how a CO2 MACS system works. Obviously it cannot be normal with the CO2 critical temp being 31C.

DaBit
02-04-2004, 07:56 AM
When CO2 systems arrive, the weakness problem should be solved since the pressures in a CO2 MACS are very high.

How does such a system work? Well, first the CO2 is compressed to a very high pressure of 100-150 bar. The hot, compressed gas passes a 'gas cooler', which is the transcritical system analogue of a condenser. The gas is desuperheated there, and possibly condensed. Then , the gas is passed through a suction gas heat exchanger. Due to the additional cooling, the CO2 condenses. Then, the CO2 is throttled into the evaporator as usual, where it evaporates. And the circle is round.

Pressures are high. Evaporator pressures of 35 bar (500psi) and discharge pressures of 150 bar (2200 psi) are no exception.

Karl Hofmann
02-04-2004, 08:19 AM
CO2 systems


http://www.all4engineers.com/preview.php?disp=det&alloc=3&lng=en&id=2064

Thanks to jg/oz for finding this one.

jg/oz
04-04-2004, 06:45 AM
Friends,
Interesting to read your comments. Also interesting to know is, that after 31/3/ 2004 when the EU parliament voted ( first reading) that GWP in the new legislation refrigerant/fluids, to be used in MACS need to be lower than GWP 50. (R134a is 1300)

Unfortunately a new Conference is held in a fortnight in Washington DC USA, called the Earth Technologies Forum ( yearly held forum) and connected to it is a Mobile Airconditioning Summit. This is held in a forthnight.

Most papers to be represented are based on a new technology with AC fluid
R152a ( GWP 130). Just wander what will be happening there.

Also our head of the Australian Greenhouse Office was supposed to do a
speach/paper on the "Australian experiance with Hydrocarbon retrofit to
CFC-12 Macs". Unfortunately also this paper seems to be cancelled.

You can have a look at the site at:

http://www.earthforum.com (http://earthforum.com) (look into the program )

Will keep you informed.

jg/oz

jg/oz
04-04-2004, 07:12 AM
Friends,
For those interested in MACS and what is to come in Europe and the rest of the world when low Global Warming fluids are used after 2011 is following.

Australia has approx 20 million inhabitants and our Refrigeration/AC/Macs
workforce consists of approx 25.000 persons. Of the 25.000 approx 50% is related to MACs service and therefore there is good money to be made in this working field.The biggest polluters of emissions are Cars and their MAC system.

The EU is now working on an emission rate of 140 gram/CO2 emissions per
1 km driven which works out on approx 16 km per liter of petrol, to be changed by 2013 ( I think) to 120 gram CO2/km of nearly 20 km per 1 liter of petrol, so cars have to become very efficient.

With the recent leakage of refrigerant fluid out of MAC systems (approx 67 gram HFC per year in the first 7 lifespan years of the car) the CO2 production of the emissions are becoming now ( with approx 240 gram CO2/km emission from petrol ).very high compared to the petrol use.

So at present the influence of the HFC emission are starting to become approx 10/15% of the petrol emissions. Just image what the emission rate of HFC will be if no drastic measures are taken.

So low global warming fluids are the answer be it CO2 of HC or any other low global warming fluid. The Germans are experimenting now with what they call
R723 which is 60 % NH3 ammonia and 40% dimethyl-ether, seems to be able to run through copper tubing and is extremely low global warming.

Have a look at : http://www.bitzer.de/_doc/a/a-501-12.pdf (http://) http://www.bitzer.de/_doc/a/a-501-12.pdf

chemi-cool
04-04-2004, 03:04 PM
looks very interesting,
now, what will happened to all those "new" systems running on R134a.
are we going to do the same as with R12? will we be again the lab rabbits?

the problem is with all hese organizations that I dont thik they know what they want. the target is very clear - zero ODP. fine with me but I would have expect from them to come with a proven plan.

at the end of the day, we pay for all those games from our own pocket, and if money wasnt the main factor. I want the people I vote for every 4 years to do their job!

any one got a horse for sale? (no AC needed) :)

chemi

Bones
05-04-2004, 08:33 AM
sorry chemi, my boss just sold his charff burner... the only thing it won was its barrier trial!

baker
06-04-2004, 02:58 AM
I predict that my 2011 all cars will have 42V high wattage electrics and that all the devices presently driven by the fan belt will be electrically powered. If you are going to engineer your MACS system to use a hermitically sealed compressor, why wouldn't you also make the change to CO2?

We live in times where the "Green" vote is powerful. Unfortunately, "Green" thinking is not always in the best interests of the environment. Just witness the contortions that Germany is going through at the moment with wind power. We live in a time where the best engineering solutions are overridden by what trendy greens want.

CO2 systems may not be the cheapest or the best MACS solution, but it will be the easiest to sell. HC systems could be the best, but too much mud has been thrown.

Karl Hofmann
06-04-2004, 07:15 AM
I agree with your prediction. Renault trucks already have an early 42v System, the flywheel is both the alternator and starter, which provides both starting and extra torque when pulling away and on hills, this thing is stall proof. 12 months ago I recieved a Valeo newsletter advertising 42v flywheels and battery packs, the intention is to have several smaller batteries stowed in several locations to make better use of dead space. A few years ago I was told of a number of prototype Renault Clio 1000cc cars with 42v systems, the power and economy that they obtained from operating the inlet and outlet valves via solenoid rather than camshaft was quite fantastic. The amount of work that is being done on the humble combustion engine to drag it out of the dark ages is considerable and I would say that the next generation of engine/car will be quite a leap forward.

Daft green issues keep many engineers in work.

chemi-cool
06-04-2004, 09:44 AM
I would like to add some stuff I've fownd on the web regarding 42V.

http://www.valeo.com/pdf/iaa_news/ricardo_uk.pdf

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3012/n8_v178/21075825/p1/article.jhtml

http://www.tierone.com/42voltrr.html

this is just the top of the iceberg, it seems that the change is already rolling and we are about to see some dramatic changes in automobile electrical systems.
one of the important implications as I see it, is the proffesional level of all those who deal with car electric systems and related systems like AC.

another important aspect is that 42V with high amps is already dangerous.

cars are not grounded, and some sort of protection for techs will have to be under consideration.

chemi

Karl Hofmann
06-04-2004, 11:01 AM
The 42v electrical system would not be a problem for me, as for safety, good working practice means that I do not actually come into contact with live wires. What is a problem and will become a bigger problem is the fact that manufacturers do protect their software and alter it slightly as each new model is introduced, meaning that the independant repairer cannot acess much of the data stored in the ECU. The only data that they must make available is that which is linked to the control of emissions, all the rest including HVAC is dealer only. I would say that my days in automotive a/c are limited, meanwhile I shall persue my quest to install cooling systems into homes, which I feel to be potentially huge.

chemi-cool
06-04-2004, 12:38 PM
hi karl,

I do not agree that AC will be a dealer only, it will be too expensive for customers and the service will be lass available, I predict that after a short time, dealers will come to people like yourself and give you all the software you will need for srvice.

with the growing number of air-conditioned cars in europe, they will not be able to handle all the work themselvs.

installing cooling systems into homes is a complete different story and the potential is huge but the marketing system should be very agresive and conduted by proffesionals and not salemen.

I do it almost every day and I know exactly what its all about.

chemi

baker
07-04-2004, 03:20 AM
Some interesting subjects have been raised.

On the issue of proprietary interfaces to car electronics, I believe that there is good progress on legislation (forget where but I think the US) to force the manufacturers to open their interfaces and to follow standards.

With domestic airconditioning, there have been steps forward and steps back. Low cost, low noise inverter ductless splits are a step forward, but some of the new laws are a worry. In Western Australia, the installer is responsible to ensure that the noise from the outside unit does not exceed 35dBa, as measured from a neighbouring property. Should a neighbour complain after installation, the installer must bear the cost of relocation or sound proofing.

Discount retail price on a Fujitsu 2.8KW cool, 3.6 KW heat, R410A inverter split with 5 year warranty is 1000 AUD ($US750 or 410 quid). I am continually amazed by how cheap these things are becoming.

Bones
07-04-2004, 09:28 AM
if thats the prices of a fujitsu... i would hate to think what the prices are on the cheap, cheap retail giants garbage... installation costs must be more then the unit lol

jg/oz
08-04-2004, 03:27 AM
Friends,
Pretty interesting conversation but unfortunately I do no know enough about
legal implications as mentioned.

Just wander--what is your opinion about 'Refrigerant fluids" does it need to be
Low Global Warming ( lower than 50,100,150,500,1500 or what ever ) or are we relying on the containment program which does not seem to work.

Policing "containment" is extremeley difficult, but very easy to do. Have we not all being done it ?? (I have ............) In my European time 20 years ago
we were/had a Transport Refrigeration service set up. ThermoKing advised in it's manuals to vent the R12 as soon as the system was opened and add virgin
R12 in the system after repairs. We sold Tons and Tons of the stuff.

Now I think about my grandkids and they have to wait another 90 years before my actions will not harm the Ozone layer anymore.(R12 active lifespan 112 years). What would be your opinion. If you do not believe Global Warming is a future problem please do not react ,there is a forum in the USA who has very little members believing in Global Warming and Ozone depletion.

Have a look at http://www.aircondition.com

regards jg/oz

May be this is

Karl Hofmann
08-04-2004, 01:08 PM
Chemi,

It is the manufacturers who protect the software, the dealers have no say, they have to pay for the equipment and software to maintain their franchise. Even if their customers have to wait they will not release this type of information to help. The problem may not even be a/c related, last year I had a diesel RangeRover with a fault that I eventually traced back to a faulty fuel lift pump in the fuel tank. BMW regularly update their sofware to deter it from being copied, they only allow Bosch to release it for use on Bosch's own diagnostic equipment after two or three years...Its a scam.

JG

I'm still not convinced that releasing refrigerants is destroying our protective layers, but I really don't want to be breathing the stuff either, so it is right that all refrigerants are recovered and dealt with under control, perhaps we should look at the aerosol industry also. Vented refrigerants are waste, just like sewage and should be treated accordingly and all REASONABLE steps should be taken to prevent leakage. Sadly the word reasonable is reliant on the gift of common sense.

Peter_1
08-04-2004, 05:56 PM
In the past (25 years ago) , i had a Datsun, now Nissan.
It took +/- 30 min to change the brake pads.
In my street is a garage where they work on Mercedes.
When you wonna change the brake pads, you need a computer to open the brake 1pistons and to close them again after a brake pad change.
You also need a computer to reset the diagnosis system, otherwise you receive constant fault codes via the on board computer.

Karl Hofmann
08-04-2004, 06:04 PM
Car manufacturers don't make money on selling cars, they make it on servicing and parts, and the more you are forced to go to the main agent the better for them.

Make them a funny shape and a £10 reciever/drier suddenly is a £100 component :eek:

Bones
12-04-2004, 12:56 AM
In my street is a garage where they work on Mercedes.
When you wonna change the brake pads, you need a computer to open the brake 1pistons and to close them again after a brake pad change.
You also need a computer to reset the diagnosis system, otherwise you receive constant fault codes via the on board computer.

so potentialy anyone driving a merc is driving a herbie? i hope there software is alot more stable then windows lol...

nothing like stopping on the highway to restart your car after a software crash!

Peter_1
12-04-2004, 07:33 AM
In Belgium we have Touring Wegenhulp (TW), a organisation who helps you - if you're a payed member - when you having car troubles along the road.
A friend of me is working at TW and the most problems they encounter are with those fully electronically controlled cars and the most problems - mostly not repairable - are with the electronics itself and often with the expensive brands (Mercedes, BMW, Audi...).

jg/oz
14-04-2004, 02:16 AM
Friends, As we speak there is a Conference going on in the US of A
about MACS and it may be of interest to hve a look at the subjects
presented.

I think we may have to close the tread for a while and get information of what has been said in papers up there.

Interesting subject is:

EU Union ( at present 450 million people) have deceided that all fluids
to be used in MACs ( Motor Vehicle AC systems have to have a lower
GWP than 50 ( R134a is 1300) after 2013. So watch what US Chemical
Industry is "pushing" to keep their 134 factories running for another
nearly 10 years and trying very hard ( I mean extremely) to suggest using
R152a (GWP 140 and highly flammable) as a replacement.

'Naturalia" has hardly any funds to fight of the 'Multi million dollar" PR
campains R152a, still HC (60/40) cheap as anything can do the job even better and is able to be retrofitted ( drop in) into all R12 and R134a systems and increase performance at the same time.

R152a will do the same a bit less performing but cost wise probably 3 to 4 times more expensive. Which may bring the 3 rd world up to 2010 to revert
CFC system and R134a systems to R12 which is still overthere US $ 1.50 to
us$ 2.00 per kg.

Whats your opinion ????????????????????????????????

jg/oz

baker
15-04-2004, 04:06 AM
A similar situation is happening in the computer world with the Microsoft - Linux debate. You see the same biassed reports, sides forming according to political leanings or nationalities, and lots of FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt).

I do not expect reason or right to triumph. Rather, I expect to see greed and stupidity win, once again.

jg/oz
18-04-2004, 04:25 AM
Friends,
Interesting to come accross an 'Elsevier Journal publication.

The International Journal of Refrigeration (France) with an article in next issue June.

The following article is available since Mid March via Internet and payment od US $ 30.--

Hope this will make --and cause an end to all speculation of Flammable substances in MACS worldwide.

Have a read:


Article by : Dr I.L.Maclaine-cross Uni UNSW Sydney

with following abstract:( see below)

Seems to me good reading and gives a final indication that Riskassessments are good indicators but also relative:

j

Usage and risk of hydrocarbon refrigerants in motor cars for Australia and the United States
Frigorigènes hydrocarbures en application automobile aux Etats-Unis et en Australie : utilisation et risques associés

I. L. Maclaine-cross ,

School of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering, The University of New South Wales, UNSW, Sydney 2052, Australia

Received 17 July 2003; Revised 15 December 2003; accepted 5 January 2004. Available online 12 March 2004.




Abstract:

Commercial replacement of fluorocarbons in mobile air conditioning systems (MACS) with typically HC-290/600a[60/40] and minimal precautions began in Idaho in 1993. R290/600a has low environmental impact but mixed with air is flammable and frequencies for fire, injury and cabin overpressure were predicted.

No such accidents are known from 1993 to mid-2003. R290/600a suppliers consumption, representative MACS charges and charge termination frequency were used to predict yearly total MACS numbers. Mid-2002 in Australia there were 0.33×106 and at end 2002 in the USA 4.7×106 R290/600a MACS.

Integrating over time gave usage for Australia to the end 2002 as 1.09×106 car-years and to mid-2003 for the USA 21.7×106 car-years. The measured US fire, injury and cabin overpressure frequencies are less than 3.2×10-7 per car year with high probability. This fire frequency is a hundred times lower than predicted because most R290/600a leaks in MACS use are effectively non flammable.

Author Keywords: Refrigerant; Hydrocarbon; Automobile; Air conditioning; USA; Australia; R-290; R-600a; Use; Risk


Nomenclature
Nomenclature
c
average mass of replacement refrigerant consumed in charging a MACS (kg)
C
consumption rate of replacement refrigerant for MACS in country (kg s-1)
f
frequency density of charge termination (s-1)
L etc etc etc .


AU
Commonwealth of Australia
MACS
Mobile Air Conditioning System
NHTSA
US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
UK
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
US
United States of America


Corresponding author. Tel.: +61-2-9385-4112; fax: +61-2-9385-1222


( with thanks to elsevier's website)

jg/oz

Karl Hofmann
18-04-2004, 11:41 AM
So why have the Americans banned HC12 and other such garbage. If you are really determined to have an environmentally freindly cooling system why dont you advocate evaporative coolers? Be fair, no one really NEEDS auto air con

I note that you only seem to pick up on what suits your argument. We have established the fact that auto a/cs leak a lot of refrigerant, so it seems bizare to me that you should advocate the use of a flamable substance, knowing that it would leak, mix with air in an area where there is a good chance that you would encounter a source of ignition.

Those junk reports assume that the refrigerant stays inside the refrigerant system and that there is no air in there, it is not uncommon for DIYers to simply "blow" a little refrigerant into an a/c system and hope that it works!
You can produce all the reports you like, but a report is no substitute for common sense

Please go and work on some automotive a/c systems and see just how C##p they really are, perhaps then you would join the real world.

Jasper
19-04-2004, 06:14 AM
I agree,
Have stopped doing any FAVOURS for freinds any more, all automotive a/c systems should be BANNED (Lets have a poll on that issue) :)

baker
20-04-2004, 03:01 AM
So why have the Americans banned HC12 and other such garbage. If you are really determined to have an environmentally freindly cooling system why dont you advocate evaporative coolers? Be fair, no one really NEEDS auto air con


As a Du Pont spokesman wrote, the US has trained hundreds of thousands of technicians to believe that refrigerants are non-flammable, and it is not practical to change this. In a suitably regulated area, HCs are perfectly safe. In the real world, I cannot see them being acceptable for a very long time. It is the same with nuclear energy and DDT. There is a huge gap between scientific evidence and "real politik".

Karl Hofmann
26-04-2004, 11:22 PM
Given the right conditions you can make a pretty big bang with a truck full of custard powder, slop a bit of diesel on to a load of fertilizer and you can make a large building disappear. My point is that many materials that are normally regarded as safe can under the right conditions can be hazardous. I am satisfied that R134a is as safe as can be reasonably expected knowing that all auto ac systems leak to a greater or lesser degree. I guess that it is all a matter of how much you are willing to risk to save a bit of cash

baker
27-04-2004, 02:44 AM
Given the right conditions you can make a pretty big bang with a truck full of custard powder, slop a bit of diesel on to a load of fertilizer and you can make a large building disappear. My point is that many materials that are normally regarded as safe can under the right conditions can be hazardous. I am satisfied that R134a is as safe as can be reasonably expected knowing that all auto ac systems leak to a greater or lesser degree. I guess that it is all a matter of how much you are willing to risk to save a bit of cash

I now understand your position better. I do not use HCs because it is no cheaper when you do it properly. However, the backyard boys with their Ronson refills and BBQ propane can get a system working, but I would hate to have to work on the system next. I can see how someone who specialises with vehicles would come to associate HCs with danger and hackery.

In Australia we are changing to national regulation of refrigerants and the debate is whether HCs will come under the legislation or not. If they don't, all your fears will be realised. If they are regulated like HFCs, I would expect all the controversy to disappear over time as only trained and licensed people could use them.

jg/oz
27-04-2004, 11:29 AM
Friends,

If "cash" was the main problem with HCs than I think you have never understood the issue. The basic issue you mention is safety. 20 million user years with HCs in MACS systems have proven that (without accidents) HC is very safe. ( hope you understand "user years"). It basically tells us that your
washing machine at home is much more dangerous for your family than your HC in your MACS.

Approx 600 Ton of HCs in the US are used by DIY (ers)yearly )equivalent to 1800 Ton of R134a [density difference] and no accidents occurred.

If you are a MACS technician and you do not know how to handle refrigerants I think you should leave the Industry.

For your information Australian/New Zealand Standard 1677 states that an odourizer has to be used in Commercial HC refrigerant (so called Mercaptan
smell like LPG which irritates at 25 ppm).

The main issue with HCs is Global Warming and if you do not believe in the seriousness of this issue than any discussion is useless and than you might
as well go back to R12 and the other F-gas stuff.

jg/oz

Karl Hofmann
27-04-2004, 06:01 PM
If cash wasn't the issue, then what is wrong with CO2? all of the benefits, less of the pitfalls, except for the fact that the equipment will have to be more expensive. Why continue to mess around with the same old equipment when we could develop something potentially better, this is why we're not all running round in horse drawn carts.

If you would care to look a system designed for R12 you will note that it is of a far more robust construction than any modern system. The danger is when your DIYers try to patch up a leaky system, these are the same DIYers who not only begrudge paying a professional to do the job right, but also try to implement a bodged repair rather than fitting new parts, and the same DIYers who are happily pumping products like HC12 in to their cars. Dont tell me it's not a money issue!

If a motorist is driving in a car with HC in the ac system crashes due to his bodged repair to the brakes, the car hits a tree HC refrigerant escapes and catches fire toasting him and all of his family to what would the accident investigator atribute their deaths to? HCs or dodgy brakes? I hope you get my point, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

So when I come across a car with HCs, what do you propose that I do with it? No MVAC tech I know carries equipment to deal with it. I know that you will state your standard line that it is not illegal to vent HCs to atmosphere, but what of the health and safety issue of releasing a flamable gas in to an enclosed workshop?.....With a pit?

I take the safe handling of any refrigerant as a very serious matter, as do all professionals, but perhaps some of the onus for the safe handling of refrigerants should be put on to the vehicle manufacturers, who deliberately design systems to corrode

jg/oz
28-04-2004, 10:43 PM
Friends,

You don't read many accidents with a truckloads of custerd powder being blown up or fertilizer used as bomb-material with diesel.(May be Iraq).

CO2 would be the best fluid to be used in MACS but.............
approx 300 million old MACS systems are around and leaking till the end of their days. Why not use as a "intermediate" HC fluid for all the old systems and wait for the CO2 ( significantly more expensive)

Than wait in the mean time about the hundred or thousands of dead people ( as most predict) caused by exploding HC MACS and if that does not happen (as it has not happened from 1994 onwards in ustralia and America) we may deceide that HCs after all is not such a bad solution........and forget all together about CO2.

Instructing approx 1 million MAC mechanics worldwide how to handle CO2
systems and supply these people with CO2 tools cost probably billions.

Simply "drop" in and "leak out" of HCs in non-retrofitted OEM R12 or R134a systems with HCs seems to me a very simple solution for a worldwide MACS problem.Anybody ---a better solution. No BS with answers like keep the HFC in because as we all know in the end it all goes to the "GODS" meaning up.

Any HCs can be vented without problems to the environment, the use
of "natural" mineral oil would than help.

This whole conversation is a "Non" event if you do not believe that Global Warming is a serious issue.

jg/oz

Karl Hofmann
28-04-2004, 11:42 PM
That the earth is getting warmer, there is little doubt, that refrigerants are to blame is almost impossible to prove or disprove. However, what ever we release to the atmosphere we must also breathe and that there is no doubt.

I cannot see the logic in marketing HCs as the solution to leaky systems. HCs can only be safe if they stay inside the system where there is no oxygen to allow them to burn. MVAC systems are not designed to safely contain HCs anymore than a powder tanker not fitted with an earth strap,filled with Custard powder.

Fertiliser bombs are poular with loonies the world over!

jg/oz
30-04-2004, 08:34 AM
Friends,
If you do not believe in world biggest next problem -Global Warming
and if you do not believe that HFC are mentioned in the Kyoto Protocol as
anthropogenic Greenhouse gasses than any debate about HCs is useless.

On the other hand if you understand Risksassessments you will know that getting an explosion or fire in a MACS systems is equivalent to twice winning
the Lotto in a row.

Participating in traffic is 7000 times more dangerous than getting an explosion or fire in a HC charged MACS system.

Temperarely end of the discussion from my side.

jg/oz

NB- Uploaded a file which was a presentation last week in Washington,
may be of interest to readers

jg/oz
19-09-2004, 07:56 AM
friends,

Sometimes you may think that I am over the moon with Car AC systems or MACS, but bear in mind
that those "in the know" keep telling me that MACS are the biggest polluter of Greenhouse gasses
and are nearly becoming 10/15% of "tailpipe" pollution of a car.

Some 80% of new cars by now are provided with a factory fitted AC systems, that we have
approx worldwide 400 million cars with a MACS system it is obvious that this sector
of our Industry needs some attention.

Or as I call it a "priority pollution problem" (3p) in our Industry -- "number one."

This is what MIPIGGS (latest edition) had to say about it:

NB. Those approx 400 million older CFC12 and HFC134a systems keep polluting the environment (as long as they use their MACS system before the scrap-heap) a simple change over to HCs (like already
running around in the world of 4.8 million HC MACS AC systems) would make ,in one go ,the pollution
problems of MACS a thing of the past. MACS problem solved.

For you to decide if CO2 is the answer , R152a or HCs.

CO2 Mobile Air Conditioning 'Ready For Mass Market in 2009'

French group Valeo (1) reports (July 29, 2004 - Valeo www.valeo.com <http://www.valeo.com> ) it has successfully developed an environmentally friendly air conditioning system 'which meets future EU regulations'. The system replaces HFC R134a refrigerant used in car air-conditioning systems with the R744 refrigerant 'and consequently eliminates the direct impact of air-conditioning systems on global warming due to refrigerant leakage'. The CO2 based Valeo R744 system was tested on a demonstration vehicle by automotive experts at the SAE Alternate Refrigerant Symposium in Phoenix, USA, with ambient temperatures up to 43°C in both city traffic and highway driving conditions.

"Valeo is leading the development of future of air conditioning systems in order to enhance comfort for all car occupants while minimizing the environmental impact. We expect to see these systems in the market by 2009," said Thierry Morin, Valeo Chairman & CEO.

Valeo says 'there are servicing cost benefits for the automotive industry as there will be no need to recover and recycle the refrigerant at the end of life'.

Meanwhile
ENDS magazine (ENDS REPORT August 2004 www.endsreport.com <http://www.endsreport.com> ) reports that 'US firms prefer HFC-152a which, while much less potent than HFC-134a, is still 140 times more powerful than CO2'.

Last year the European Commission published a draft Regulation setting out plans to curb emissions of fluorinated gases. The proposals include provisions to phase out gases with a global warming potential greater than 150 from car air conditioning between 2008 and 2012. The measure is aimed primarily at the most common gas, HFC-134a, which is 1,300 times more potent than CO2.

The UK opposes the ban. Environment Minister Elliot Morley told MPs that it would "greatly increase" costs to UK equipment suppliers. He also cast doubt on the safety of CO2 systems - seen as the most promising alternative - because they must be kept under high pressure and "may suddenly explode" (ENDS Report 348, pp 33-34 <outbind://71-000000004834B1067C533B45ACEF490817EFE02204A63B00/article.cfm?ArticleRef=348036> ). But Norsk Hydro, manufacturers of CO2 based cooling technologies point out that "pubs use CO2-containers at the same pressure as MAC every day". ENDS notes that 'Japanese air conditioning manufacturer Calsonic Kansei, whose main European production facilities are in the UK, says that because of the small amount of CO2 used in such systems, the power of any explosion would be comparable to releasing an ordinary CO2 fire extinguisher. Furthermore, prevention measures such as pressure relief devices have been developed to relieve the risks of an explosion

Instead, the main risk is considered to be the toxicity effects of CO2 leaking into the car. Such a leak would be difficult to detect because of the background levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and the CO2 produced by passenger exhalation'.

ENDS says "US air conditioning manufacturers such as Visteon and Delphi, plus compressor manufacturer Sanden, are pushing for HFC-152a". In the past the HFC industry used the flammability of hydrocarbons as an argument against them. ENDS notes that both Calsonic and fellow Japanese manufacturer Denso have already launched CO2 systems in hybrid vehicles in Japan. Europe's biggest manufacturer of car air conditioning systems, Behr, said it is ready to produce a CO2 system for any type of car and have it on the market within two to three years. "We expect some car manufacturers to move to CO2 soon," a spokesman told ENDS.

Audi and BMW are expected to be the first to introduce such systems on series production vehicles, possibly between 2006 and 2008.

(1) Valeo ranks among the world's top automotive suppliers. The Group has 128 plants, 65 R&D centers, 9 distribution centers and employs 68,800 people in 25 countries worldwide. www.valeo.com <http://www.valeo.com/> Press Contacts:
Alexandre Telinge / Sophie Porte +33 140 55 20 74 alexandre.telinge@valeo.com <mailto:alexandre.telinge@valeo.com> , sophie.porte@valeo.com <mailto:sophie.porte@valeo.com>

best regards

jg/oz

jg/oz
19-09-2004, 07:58 AM
Friends,

Always interesting to read that others are thinking in similar ways as we do. If those in higher office are
talking about it than it's going to happen one day. When.............!!! I hope soon and advice all those involved to be prepared for a new very profitable rally.

Have a read:


** SPECIAL MIPIGGS UPDATE **
UK Opposition Call For Ban on HFCs

The Rt. Hon. Michael Howard QC MP, Leader of the Conservative Opposition party in the UK and a past Environment Minister, has called for a phase out of HFCs and said "climate change is one of mankind’s greatest challenges".

Speaking on Monday 13 Sept, to a large audience of environmentalists, politicians, industrialists and the media, at an Environment Forum organised by Green Alliance/ERM he announced that "the Conservatives are committed to phasing out the use of hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs, between 2008 and 2014". He continued, saying that "HFCs have solved one problem - they do not damage the ozone layer. But they have caused another – they contribute significantly to global warming. Their impact is some thousands of times greater than CO2. HFCs currently account for two per cent of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions and that will have doubled by the end of the first decade of the twenty first century".

Howard also cited companies who were already tackling this problem like "Coca Cola – which owns around nine million refrigerators worldwide – is to phase out the use of HFCs in its refrigerators. Unilever has taken a similar stance, and Toyota is introducing non-HFC air-conditioning in their cars. These companies recognise that HFCs are not the way of the future".

Howard finished by saying that "These are welcome, but isolated, examples. Unless this issue is addressed as a matter of some urgency, and government gives a clear lead, then the situation will only worsen. That is why a future Conservative Government will work with our European partners to phase out the use of HFCs over the next decade".

Speaking the next day, at the 10th anniversary of the Prince of Wales’s Business and the Environment programme, the Prime Minister, the Rt. Hon Tony Blair MP called climate change the world’s greatest environmental challenge. He said that "our effect on the environment, and in particular on climate change, is large and growing". He said "that there is no doubt that the time to act is now. It is now that timely action can avert disaster". He spoke of the potential for innovation but said nothing about control of HFCs.

The next General Election in the UK is widely predicted to be in the spring of next year. Blair said the challenge to tackle climate change was "complicated politically" as "there is a mismatch in timing between the environmental and electoral impact".

Michael Howard’s speech can be found at http://www.greenalliance.org.uk/ <http://www.greenalliance.org.uk/>

and Tony Blair’s at http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page6333.asp


regards

jg/oz

jg/oz
19-09-2004, 08:00 AM
Friends,

As I have mentioned earlier the Brussels Conference "Naturals Naturally" was a huge success and
now MIPIGGS publishes a little article of it which a I transmit to you again.


MIPIGGs Newsletter September 2004
The Newsletter of the Multi Sectoral Initiative on Potent Industrial Greenhouse Gases

HFC-Free McDonalds Cuts Energy, CO2 and Avoids HFC Impact

In 2003 Danish Minister of the Environment, Hans Christian Schmidt, opened the first "HFC-free restaurant" in Vejle, Denmark. Now a study (1) by the Danish Technological Institute has found the HFC-free system uses less energy and produces less CO2 in its operation. It reports a 15% annual energy savings on the refrigeration equipment in the HFC free restaurant compared with an HFC reference restaurant. It adds "Furthermore, a 33,4 kg charge of HFC has been avoided which with a leakage rate of 7% per year gives a 27% better performance regarding CO2 emissions (TEWI)".
While installation costs for plug-in equipment was 5-10% more expensive, this would be "insignificant" at production volumes, said the study. "Walk-in was 60% more expensive" say the authors, "due to a more complicated refrigeration system, which on this small-scale unit causes a significant higher cost" but in future expect this to fall to 20-30%. The future the additional cost for HVAC should fall to 10-20% "when commercial components enters the market".

(1) The world's first McDonald's restaurant using natural refrigerants, paper at 6th IIR Natural Working Fluids Conference, Glasgow, 2004: Kim G. Christensen* Danish Technological Institute, Kongsvang Allé 29, 8000 Aarhus C, Denmark Phone: +45 7220 1265, Fax: +45 7220 1212, E-mail: kim.gardo.christensen@teknologisk.dk <mailto:kim.gardo.christensen@teknologisk.dk> and Sang Chun McDonalds Corporation, Dept. 111 · Kroc Drive · Oak Brook, IL 60523 USA Phone: +1 (630) 623-5785, Fax: +1 (630) 623-3903, E-mail: sang.chun@mcd.com

For thise interested in the section of our refrigeration Industry ( becoming extremely important in the future
please visit: http://www.refrigerantsnaturally.com

May be of interest to you
all the best
jg/oz

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 08:49 AM
Friends,
Although not direct new information still interesting to read that the European Union takes Global Warming seriously,
now that Russia is on the verge of signing the K.-protocol, new interest is flowing towards the Automotive Industry.

Interesting to know that Academics like Dennis Clodic state that the MACS AC system contributes at present to
approx. 10/15% of tailpipe pollution. With the new regulations in place in 2008/2009 (with max fuel consumption of
5.8 l/100km or diesel 5.25 l/100km) tailpipe pollution of the AC systems would become roughly 18 to 21% which
would be totally unacceptable. This is one of the reasons to change the working fluids of MACS to R152a ( USA) or CO2
(Europe) or HC's (?)

The advantage of HCs would be that nearly all older ( world wide) MACS (and new at the same time) could be retrofitted/
charged new with HCs and the whole emission problems from MACS worldwide would be solved. This offcourse seems
to be a too easy solution and a 10 year transition period is probably arranged by stakeholders. For those critics on
flammables : R152a is flammable as well but according to the Americans that's not a problem anymore.

Have a read:

Objectives of the agreements concluded with the automobile industry
Negotiated self-commitments are an important element of the Community's strategy to reduce CO2 emissions from passenger cars and improve fuel economy. Commitments have been concluded with the European (European Automobile Manufacturers' Association - ACEA), the Japanese (Japan Automobile Manufacturers' Association - JAMA) and Korean (Korean Automobile Manufacturers' Association - KAMA) automobile industries.

All three Commitments are equivalent having the following main features:

The CO2 emission objective: The three Commitments contain the same quantified CO2 emission objective for the average of new passenger cars sold in the European Union, i.e. 140 gCO2/km (to be achieved by 2009 by JAMA and KAMA and by 2008 by ACEA). In other words the fleet of new passenger cars put on the market in 2008/2009 will consume on average about 5.8 l petrol/100 km or 5.25 l diesel/100 km.
Means of achievement: ACEA, JAMA and KAMA have to achieve the CO2 target 'mainly' by technological developments and market changes linked to these developments.
The Commission endorsed the Commitments by publishing corresponding Recommendations.

Agreement with European car manufacturers (pdf ~40K)
Agreement with Japanese car manufacturers (pdf ~100K) Corrigenda (pdf ~170K)
Agreement with Korean car manufacturers (pdf ~100K)

reading the full EU environmental site view:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/co2/co2_home.htm

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 08:51 AM
Friends,

Always interesting to read that others are thinking in similar ways as we do. If those in higher office are
talking about it than it's going to happen one day. When.............!!! I hope soon and advice all those involved to be prepared for a new very profitable rally.

Have a read:


** SPECIAL MIPIGGS UPDATE **

UK Opposition Call For Ban on HFCs

The Rt. Hon. Michael Howard QC MP, Leader of the Conservative Opposition party in the UK and a past Environment Minister, has called for a phase out of HFCs and said "climate change is one of mankind’s greatest challenges".

Speaking on Monday 13 Sept, to a large audience of environmentalists, politicians, industrialists and the media, at an Environment Forum organised by Green Alliance/ERM he announced that "the Conservatives are committed to phasing out the use of hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs, between 2008 and 2014". He continued, saying that "HFCs have solved one problem - they do not damage the ozone layer. But they have caused another – they contribute significantly to global warming. Their impact is some thousands of times greater than CO2. HFCs currently account for two per cent of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions and that will have doubled by the end of the first decade of the twenty first century".

Howard also cited companies who were already tackling this problem like "Coca Cola – which owns around nine million refrigerators worldwide – is to phase out the use of HFCs in its refrigerators. Unilever has taken a similar stance, and Toyota is introducing non-HFC air-conditioning in their cars. These companies recognise that HFCs are not the way of the future".

Howard finished by saying that "These are welcome, but isolated, examples. Unless this issue is addressed as a matter of some urgency, and government gives a clear lead, then the situation will only worsen. That is why a future Conservative Government will work with our European partners to phase out the use of HFCs over the next decade".

Speaking the next day, at the 10th anniversary of the Prince of Wales’s Business and the Environment programme, the Prime Minister, the Rt. Hon Tony Blair MP called climate change the world’s greatest environmental challenge. He said that "our effect on the environment, and in particular on climate change, is large and growing". He said "that there is no doubt that the time to act is now. It is now that timely action can avert disaster". He spoke of the potential for innovation but said nothing about control of HFCs.

The next General Election in the UK is widely predicted to be in the spring of next year. Blair said the challenge to tackle climate change was "complicated politically" as "there is a mismatch in timing between the environmental and electoral impact".

Michael Howard’s speech can be found at http://www.greenalliance.org.uk/ <http://www.greenalliance.org.uk/>

and Tony Blair’s at http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page6333.asp

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 08:54 AM
Friends,

Just a small article in the Sydney Morning Herald about Fridges and Greenhouse Gasses.
It's actually very sad to read that our old "beerfridges" and the Household fridge produce just as much Greenhouse Gasses as 2 million cars on the road.

It justifies as said before the change over to HC's in these products, this reduces the CO2 production to a mere 1290 vehicles and than not to forget that in most old fridges 2/3 of the F-gasses are in the insulation and 1/3 is refrigerant.( Europe is 110 million fridges ahead of us and increasing approx 8/10 million per year, China [mainland] is soon to follow.

Even our (Australia's) destruction of approx 500.000 fridges a year is seen by the AGO ( AustralianGreenhouse Office) as a non event and accepts it to be buried as landfill.

Time for a change, but as usual the Government has to set the guidelines and by not ratifying the Kyoto Protocol you cannot accept much corporation from the Trade.

Have a read: interesting stuff.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/13/1094927513542.html

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 08:57 AM
Friends,

For some time now I have complained about the Non participating of Coke, McDonalds and Unilever in their promise to go out of HFCs. Till recently when a meeting was held in Brussels with all major users of cabinets and promises made
to go ahead.

May be one of the first positive signs may be from Unilever.

Have a read:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example, Unilever Ice Cream recently committed itself to buying only HFC-free freezers from 2005. The freezers have already been introduced in Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and the UK, and the company claims it will have around 15,000 HFC-free cabinets in its fleet by the end of 2004.

The new freezers use the hydrocarbon, propane as refrigerant. Hydrocarbons are natural gases that do not harm the ozone layer and have virtually no impact on climate change. The HFC (hydrofluorocarbons) gases they replace are not ozone depletors like traditional refrigerants such as CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons) and HCFCs (hydrochlorofluorocarbons), but do contribute to global warming.

Unilever says that laboratory trials suggest the hydrocarbon freezers are also more energy efficient, using up to 15 per cent less energy to keep ice cream at the right temperature, compared with other models. Longer-term trials in the Australian market showed a 9 per cent reduction in energy use compared with HFC cabinets. Although hydrocarbon refrigerants have been available in household freezers for some time, Unilever claims it is the first company to use them on a large scale for commercial freezer cabinets.

this article can be read at:

http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-NG.asp?id=54422

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 08:59 AM
Friends,

Always interesting to read in CLIO(3),UNEP-DTIE,recent issue the total opposite evaluations of MACS in Europe and USA. EU goes low Global warming fluids (150 or 50) US stays with fluids(1300) but reduces leakage rate ( which is extremely important). As the EU is the largest car-market at present( in the world,450 million people it seems interesting to know China's views on refrigerant fluids).On the other hand the
approx 800 million existing systems running on CFC's( 8500) and HFCs (1300) could easily be retrofitted toHCs as has been done with 300.000 Australian cars and approx 4.5 million US cars (without accidents).This would save us (if done tomorrow) a lot more than 35 million Tonnes of Greenhouse gas emissions (CO2-e) as mentioned in the article.
Have a read:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NORTH AMERICA

Fluorocarbon Producers Support Mobile Air Conditioning Climate Protection Partnership (USA)
Fluorocarbon producers Atofina, DuPont, INEOS Fluor, Honeywell, Solvay and the JFMA (Japan Fluorocarbon Manufacturers Association have today [29th June 2004] announced that they will provide over US$300,000, to help fund the Mobile Air Conditioning Climate Protection Partnership (see OzoNews 27 April issue). The Partnership aims to reduce fuel consumption from the operation of vehicle A/C by at least 30% and reduce direct refrigerant emissions by at least 50%. The cumulative reduction in fuel use and containment of refrigerants, will avoid more than 35 million tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions (in CO2 equivalent) each year. When all cars have this new technology, it is estimated that improvements could save over 11 billion litres of fuel each year worldwide. The Mobile Air Conditioning Climate Protection Partnership is a joint effort managed by the Society of Automotive Engineers, The Mobile Air Conditioning Society Worldwide and the US Environment Protection Agency and includes government, academic and other scientific institutions as well as corporate partners, including the major producers of fluorocarbons.

For more information/Contact:
Mr. Richard Longden, INEOS Fluor, (44 1) 928 513064 richard.longden@ineosfluor.com

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 09:02 AM
Friends,

Always remarkable that even CLIO(3), UNEP-DTIE, Paris, is interested to let us know their views.
Took a long while after the 2000 Olympics in Sydney , the Group (Coke, Unilever,McDonalds) they promised
us 4 years to have all in place but it will take a lot longer than anticipated.
Have a read.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Innovative Technologies for Commercial Coolers and Freezers Unveiled.


The Coca-Cola Company, Unilever Ice Cream and McDonald’s, who between them operate 12 million coolers and freezers, have been developing with their suppliers over the last four years, innovative, HFC-free refrigeration technologies that reduce the global warming impact of their commercial equipment. HFCs are gases that have strong global warming potential … The three companies and their suppliers have developed and are actively deploying and testing, innovative, HFC-free refrigeration technologies that reduce global warming as well as energy usage. The technologies include hydrocarbons, carbon dioxide, Stirling, thermoacoustic and solar cooling. Developments and tests confirm that these technologies, while at different stages of commercial availability, are viable, efficient and reliable. Other options are also being explored… The three companies are precipitating change in refrigeration technology buying and supplier trends, and call upon other businesses within the industry to join their initiative… Rajendra Shende, Head of Energy and OzonAction Branch, United Nations Environment Programme said: “As market leaders in their respective areas, The Coca-Cola Company, Unilever and McDonald’s are taking an important step in addressing environmental issues by simultaneously protecting the ozone layer and safeguarding the global climate system in an integrated way. The future of sustainable refrigeration lies in this type of forward-looking technology innovation.” … [This initiative is supported by UNEP and Greenpeace]


Full Text @ http://www.refrigerantsnaturally.com/doc/Press%20Release.pdf
Source: “Refrigerants, Naturally” Press Release, 22 June 2004 http://www.refrigerantsnaturally.com/

jg/oz
10-10-2004, 09:06 AM
Friends,

I may not like F-gasses but must admit that "Carrier Corporation" new way of thinking must be admired.
A 0.1% leakproof warranty on chiller systems must be admired for a period of 5 years and if "service contracts"
taken from Carrier than a lifelong "leak" warranty".

I rest my case , this is exellent new technology from a real "leader" of our Industry.

You just wander what acceptance does Industry have about "Leakproofness" is it,0.1 , 1, or 5 % of the refrigerant charge per year, per equipment lifetime ???? Any suggestions, at present we think in the 10s of % per year !!!! Long way to go !

jg/oz

NORTH AMERICA

- Carrier Guarantees Chillers Utilizing HFC-134a (USA)
Syracuse, N.Y.-based Carrier Corporation has long been committed to environmental sustainability. Ten years ago the company designed and introduced the Evergreen family of centrifugal chillers, a complete line of chillers with high efficiency non-ozone depleting refrigerant. At the Engineering Green Building Conference, Carrier announced that it would
enhance its commitment to the environment by providing a 0.1% leak-proof warranty on its Evergreen family of chillers that are shipped after October 1, 2004. Carrier's Evergreen Chillers with non-ozone depleting HFC-134a have the lowest published leak rate in the industry due to their hermetic motor design and ASME construction. The chillers also provide industry-leading part-load efficiency, which is where chillers
operate 99% of their life. Under the new warranty Carrier will provide coverage against refrigerant leaks for the first five years of ownership. For customers that maintain a service agreement with Carrier Commercial Service, Carrier will extend the warranty for the life of the chiller.

Article @ http://www.csemag.com/news_stories/news134.asp
Source: Consulting-Specifying Engineer -- 2 August 2004

jg/oz
11-10-2004, 12:18 AM
Friends,

The Oklahoma Daily had recently an article which caught my eye and may be of interest to us.

have a read, every now and then you come across an IPCC member ( & Ass. Professor) with different views.

May be our Industry should also start asking, when are we satisfied with the reduction of ODP & GWP elements,
are we going back to ZERO or do we allow to stop at eg. 5% compared to 1990 data ( or 1995 for HFCs) ??

Some countries in Europe ( Netherlands) state that they have emissions (now) in our Trade of less than 5%,
some effective reports , initiated by STEK, have shown these figures.


jg/oz


Don't fear global warming

Robert C. Balling Jr.
January 21, 2004

In a recent article published in your paper entitled " What was hot in 2003? Weather," author Seth Borenstein correctly notes that the thermometer-based global temperature record has shown a warming of approximately 1 degree Fahrenheit over the past 124 years. We also learn that 2003 was the second-warmest year on record and that recent years have been unusually warm when compared to the entire time series. The article makes the case that the ongoing buildup of greenhouse gases is the culprit, and that a continued warm-up is in the cards for the rest of our lifetimes.

As a long-time participant in the greenhouse debate, a member of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a professor of climatology at Arizona State University and an author of multiple books and articles on the subject, I am writing to point out the following facts:

(1) The global thermometer record is anything but global. We certainly have quality long-term records from the United States and Europe (adding up to less than 3 percent of the Earth’s surface), but there are massive areas of the Earth with no records whatsoever. Furthermore, imagine how many places had quality temperature measurements 124 years ago? To make matters worse, many of the long-term records come from airport and urban locations full of microclimatic effects associated with concrete, the lack of soil moisture and often the hottest place in the area.

(2) Polar-orbiting satellites carry equipment to far more accurately measure true global temperatures with full coverage of the planet. Those records exist for only 25 years, and indeed, they show 2003 to be a warm year, second only to 1998. However, the trend in the satellite-based record is only a fraction of the trend in the thermometer-based measurements.

(3) The temperature of the Earth has risen and fallen throughout the 5-billion-year history of the planet. Only 15,000 years ago, Canada was buried under a mile of ice—has warming since then been a bad thing? Approximately 500 years ago, the Earth plunged into the Little Ice Age with catastrophic consequences in Europe and elsewhere. Fortunately, the recovery started at about the same time the thermometer-based temperature record began—quite coincident with the 124-year timeframe mentioned in the Borenstein article. The observed warming may have occurred even without any interference from human activities.

I agree that the buildup of greenhouse gases undoubtedly had a warming effect over the past century, but climate scientists cannot quantify the effect with much confidence. Over this same period, the sun has become brighter, and believe it or not, a warming sun probably helped to warm the Earth. Climate scientists can list dozens of human-related activities that have warmed or cooled towns, regions, hemispheres or the globe, and they must disentagle the greenhouse fingerprint in a very complicated environment.

It is ironic that your article ran the very day many U.S. residents were experiencing record-breaking cold temperature. From my outpost in Arizona and your home base in Florida, it is painfully apparent that life in warmer climates is desirable by the bulk of the population. The fastest growing areas of our country curiously coincide with the warmest locations. There will be winners and losers should the world continue to warm, but the winners would far exceed the losers.

Climate change is a natural and to-be-expected part of winding-up on this planet—in the long history of human existence, no one has been exempt from this reality. In the mid-to-late 1970s, we all feared global cooling, and now the fear has shifted to warming. The 1-degree-Fahrenheit warming over the past century is trivial in a longer context, not out of the bounds of natural variability, and possibly not such a bad thing.

I am grateful that no human 15,000 years ago did anything to stop the warming that has made our planet such a wonderful place to spend a lifetime.

— Dr. Robert C. Balling Jr. is the director of the Office of Climatology and an associate professor of geography at Arizona State University. He is the author of The Satanic Gases: Clearing the Air on Global Warming (2000). He can be reached at robert.balling@asu.edu.

jg/oz
11-10-2004, 02:24 AM
HC Refrigerants in Cars ?????????????????????

Friends,

A recent article in an IIR magazine ( International Institute of Refrigeration) caught my eye and I think It would be interesting to read the total paper. Although an academic paper it gives credibility To the use of HCs in MACS or Automotive air-conditioning working fluids. It also shows us That all calls by ‘Chemicalia” as HCs being dangerous to use in MACS is a fake and proven By the 1 million user years of HCs in Macs. Those a bit involved in Risk-assessments and know what Risk means can agree with the paper that to put it “bluntly” an accident with HCs in a MACS system is similar to winning the Lotto Twice in a row.

Any rate have a read at the abstract:

Dr. I. L. Maclaine-cross

School of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering, The University of New South
Wales, UNSW Sydney 2052, Australia

Abstract

Commercial replacement of fluorocarbons in mobile air conditioning systems (MACS)
with typically HC-290/600a[60/40] and minimal precautions began in Idaho in 1993. R290/600a has low environmental impact but mixed with air is flammable and frequencies for fire, in-jury and cabin overpressure were predicted. No such accidents are known from 1993 to mid-2003. R290/600a suppliers consumption, representative MACS charges and charge termination frequency were used to predict yearly total MACS numbers. Mid-2002 in Australia there were 0.33 ラ10 6 and at end 2002 in the USA 4.7 ラ10 6 R290/600a MACS. Integrating over time gave usage for Australia to the end 2002 as 1.09 ラ10 6 car-years and to mid-2003 for the USA 21.7 ラ10 6 car-years.

The measured US fire, injury and cabin overpressure frequencies are less than 3.2 ラ10 7 per car year with high probability. This fire frequency is a hundred times lower than
predicted because most R290/600a leaks in MACS use are effectively nonflammable.

The total paper and other articles can be found at:

http://ctan.unsw.edu.au/pub/archive/HC/papers/HCpapers.html

regards jg/oz

jg/oz
11-10-2004, 02:26 AM
Friends,
For some time now I have complained about the Non participating of Coke, McDonalds and Unilever in their promise to go out of HFCs. Till recently when a meeting was held in Brussels with all major users of cabinets and promises made
to go ahead.

May be one of the first positive signs may be from Unilever.

Have a read:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example, Unilever Ice Cream recently committed itself to buying only HFC-free freezers from 2005. The freezers have already been introduced in Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and the UK, and the company claims it will have around 15,000 HFC-free cabinets in its fleet by the end of 2004.

The new freezers use the hydrocarbon, propane as refrigerant. Hydrocarbons are natural gases that do not harm the ozone layer and have virtually no impact on climate change. The HFC (hydrofluorocarbons) gases they replace are not ozone depletors like traditional refrigerants such as CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons) and HCFCs (hydrochlorofluorocarbons), but do contribute to global warming.

Unilever says that laboratory trials suggest the hydrocarbon freezers are also more energy efficient, using up to 15 per cent less energy to keep ice cream at the right temperature, compared with other models. Longer-term trials in the Australian market showed a 9 per cent reduction in energy use compared with HFC cabinets. Although hydrocarbon refrigerants have been available in household freezers for some time, Unilever claims it is the first company to use them on a large scale for commercial freezer cabinets.

this article can be read at:

http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-NG.asp?id=54422

jg/oz

jg/oz
11-10-2004, 02:31 AM
Friends,
Sometimes you keep those people hammering on the safety
of F-gasses as compared to HCs or CO2. Have a look at this,
serious is'nt it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway have a read as well:

Don't know if you are still in for some info on accidents
with F-gasses.

have a look at :

http://www.fireworld.com/magazine/refrigerants.html

and

http://www.fireworld.com/news/102698a.html

jg/oz

jg/oz
11-10-2004, 02:37 AM
Friends,
Sometimes you just wander !!!!!!!!
Have a look at this.

We’re always busy telling “others” that we have to change our attitude towards Ozone and Global Warming but we may have
other problems on hand such as these mentioned below by Klaus Toepfer. UNEP

Have a read and think about it for a while.


How do we really solve that problem ????????



jg/oz



NB: report by Reuter Int. Story date 17/7/03




China Growth Aims Environmentally Impossible - UN


------------------------------------------------------------

China's ambitious economic growth plans are environmentally unachievable because the world does not have enough resources to allow its 1.3 billion people to become Western-style consumers, a U.N. official said yesterday.

Klaus Toepfer, head of the U.N. Environment Program, said China's aim of quadrupling its economy by 2020 can only occur if developed nations radically change their consumption habits to free up scarce resources for the world's poor.

"Quadrupling the GDP of a country of 1.3 billion ( 1.300 million) , can you imagine what are the consequences if you go in the same structure as was done in the so-called developed countries?" Toepfer told reporters during a visit to Sydney recently.

He said that if China had the same density of private cars as, for example Germany, it would have to produce 650 million vehicles -- a target that environmentalists say the world's supply of metal and oil would be unable to sustain.

"It's not a question whether you are devoted to nature or whether this is an emotional topic. This is the rationality of economics," Toepfer said.

China's gross domestic product, or GDP, grew eight percent last year and the government expects it to expand another seven percent in 2003.

Toepfer was in Australia to attend a conference of young environmentalists from Asia, discussing ways of changing consumer habits so that precious resources such as water are conserved.
He said the world's approach to resource use was going through a significant phase with slow economic growth persuading governments in Europe and North America to aggressively try to stimulate consumption.

While senior Chinese officials appeared to be fully aware of the constraints the environment placed on their economic plans, Toepfer said more work needed to be done in developed nations to make environmentally friendly products "trendy" and mainstream.

jg/oz

Peter Croxall
11-10-2004, 10:08 AM
Hi jg/OZ
Hmmmmmmm :) I only wish my old Jag did 5.8l/100km......I only seem to get 17 miles to the gallon on a good day :(

Seriously though, the article on the breakdown of refrigerants after exposure to high temperatures was very interesting. Maybe, warning labels should be displayed to warn the general public of this problem. ;)

ianv
12-10-2004, 04:27 AM
being in the automotive industry, I see the biggest problem contributing to pollution is the amount of "services" macs recieve. I ask you, who gets their domestic fridge flushed, dryer renewed and refrigerent replaced every summer or bianually? I believe over servicing on ac units it the major cause of mac gasses hitting the air. This would place the service tech responsible for the pollution rather than type of gas, material of pipes and fittings. Just leave them to do their job. As with domestic, if they break fix em. :eek:

jg/oz
13-10-2004, 05:14 AM
Friends,

A very good remark of our good friend responding to my mail.

Academics say that we have a leakage rate now adays in a Car AC system of 68 grams per year approx (Clodic,Schwarz
et al), but my own experiance is so far after 4 cars with AC, apart that I replace the working fluid with HCs, no leaks have occured or have been observed or the systems performed
less than useall (capacity wise).

Now it must be mentioned that a MACS systems still works (100%) with 55% of the total charge but I must admit nobody is allowed to touch the AC system in my cars . (I hardly have them serviced anyway).

New views with the Gov. and Car Manf.are to give a no-leak warranty on the lifecycle of the car. This is not so difficult to do if you imaging that future cars with R134a are only allowed to leak 28 grams per year after 2009 and with an LC of 12 years, so total charge needs to be approx 700 gram ( which is todays charge rate anyway).

Unfortunately the whole approx 10 million people worldwide in the MACS industry will become unemployed so that causes another problem.

Anybody any better views on this ????????????

What about HCs no Global Warming problems anymore
and Greenhouse problem caused by cars AC system solved.??

Any better idea's--- don't use AC systems in cars anymore !!

jg/oz

Karl Hofmann
13-10-2004, 09:17 AM
Oh Yes! What a good idea, HCs in an automotive aircon! HCs may be fine in a static chiller that is not subject to the paper thin condenser being hit by road debris, by insufficiently supported pipes fracturing due to the entire unit being bounced along the road, or the components spending Winter soaked in corrosive liquid while they are located and supported with brackets made of an incompatible material.

The biggest cause of refrigerant loss in automotive is the manufacturers designing parts to fail to encourage parts replacement. Replace the R134a with HCs and all you will have is a 120mph BBQ

Reducing refrigerant loss is simple, design the system not to leak, get rid of those O rings, get rid of springlock connectors, replace belt driven compressors with hemetic or semi hermetic electric compressors, stop using steel brackets to support alloy components, its not rocket science.

HCs in an automotive system would be fine in a system to contain HCs, to try an use them in a system designed to use R12 or R134a is pure muppetry.

Perhaps you should read and think about the implications of what you type JG

chemi-cool
13-10-2004, 06:34 PM
Hi Karl.

You shoud see these Troopers and Land Crursers and of course the land rovers coming in after a weekend in the desert.
The first thing that brakes is the compressor.
Just imagine a Toyota land cruser with the compressor hanging under the engine, supported by the hoses.

We will never be out of work!!!!

By the way, I drive a Peugeut Partner for the last 3 years and so far, didnt even add one gram of refrigerant!!

The manufacturers will never do a good job, not to worry. ;)

Chemi :)

jg/oz
14-10-2004, 01:15 AM
Reply to Karl, from jg/oz

karl,

don't know where you live but in the US we have 4.5 million
cars driving on HCs with their AC system and in Australia
300.000 since 1994. Have you heard so far of accidents, would
really like to know if you have any info.

Have you read that R152a ( flammable and explosive) is the solution of the US to the HFC 134a problem??? No problems anymore with flamm. or explosiveness.!!

It's nice to give comments but please substanciate your claims

NB. We have in Australia 1.000.000 ( onemillion ) user years with HCs in Car AC systems and in the US approx 20.000.000
(20 million user years) if you understand what that means.
and no deadly accidents or police reports about HC accident reported.

jg/oz
14-10-2004, 01:34 AM
chemi,

manufacturers can be forced by legislation e.g. to make systems leakproof for the LC of the motorvehicle for environmental reasons.

Not taking into account problems with AC due to road accidents.

At present EU ( European Union ) is forcing manufacturers to respond to HFC134a problems in MACs and so is California in the US pushing.

Reason for pushing HCs from my perseptive is in one go you would eliminate Global Warming problems due to R134a in MACS (Old and New Cars). HCs are plonked into R12 and R134a systems without ( this is were the critique starts) modification and works perfect. See the user-years so far obtained. A deadly accidents with HCs in your car is similar to be struck by lightning 4 times in a row on the same place.( does that make sence ??). Driving in trafic with a car is 6000
times more dangerous than having HCs in your AC system.
110 million EU fridges and freesers working for the last 10 years
with HC fluids in their system contribute to my statement.

Unilever with 1.500.000 display cases for icecream worldwide is looking for new replacements with HCs where the legislation allows it to be used. Danger problem litigation is no obstacle for
Unilever. Test have revealed HCs are 15/20% more eficient and save lots of energy. Tests were done during Sydney Olympics with equipment designed for R404a and HCs plonked in them without modification.

Peter Croxall
14-10-2004, 08:46 AM
Hi Jg,
I don’t think Karl is complaining about HC’s in an automobile environment, (after all cars run on HC’s), :) but he is saying that the components in the airconditioning are not designed for their use. In the automobile industry, where a penny save here and a penny saved there, equate’s to thousand if not millions, they tend to cut corners and use the cheapest product they can get away with. :(

Karl Hofmann
14-10-2004, 10:02 AM
Thanks Peter,

We have been trying to get this through to JG for quite some time now. If an automotive system was as leak tight as a domestic fridge, leaks could be isolated immediately (In an accident fuel pumps are shut down) and the pipework containing the HC refrigerant was not permitted to enter the passenger cabin (As is the case with fuel pipes) then I see no problem. The Auto makers have investigated this option and I guess they have discounted it for fear of legal action being taken against them (The testing for fuel tanks is exhaustive and expensive)

HCs are illegal in most US states, though the use of HC might help the removal of a few of their clunkers.

JG you already know ALL of my objections to HCs being dumped in to R12 systems, and you have nothing new to offer. Move on.

Karl Hofmann
14-10-2004, 10:08 AM
LOL Chemi,

I've never seen them treated THAT roughly, though a bump hard enough to dislodge a Cruiser compressor is enough to destroy the average Land Rover :eek:

chemi-cool
14-10-2004, 03:52 PM
jg,

As I said before, you are a bit naive, its all about income, nothing else.
If by changing the refrigerants, Coca Cola would sell more, they will and if not, they wont.
It applies to all the giant companys!

Karl, you shoud see our drivers and our desert. Its easy over there. Land Rovers dont even make it back.

Look at my avatar. Not the sandy bit!!

Chemi :)

Carlo Hansen
14-10-2004, 06:45 PM
Hi to all

If I understand this debate right, you all agree in the therms,
that a MAC system will be leaking after a short period, because of stress and vibrations.
I think there should be invested more energy to make a new MAC system which can resist the stress and vibrations.
Concerning the refrigerant type versus Global Warming, the
Global Warming began 18.000 years ago, so I can not realy see a connextion. it is only the Tax Collector and some of the industry there make monye out of this.

Robert W Felix has written a very interesting book about Global Warming - see the link.

http://www.iceagenow.com/
http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/temp_vs_CO2.html

Best regards
Carlo

chemi-cool
14-10-2004, 07:53 PM
Hi Carlo.

You have touched a very sensitive point here. :D

Thats exectly my opinion and always been!!

Try not to make some people angy here ;)

Chemi :)

jg/oz
17-10-2004, 05:18 AM
Dear Friends,

Thanks for your answeers :At least you are trying to use the brain.

As said before:

If you do not believe in GW or ODP than all communication is irrelevant and we all may go back to R12.

If you slightly believe that GW is some sort of a problem than
a fluid in MACS which can be "plonked" in and will run /and work even better on all systems so far invented by mankind
and will solve all GW/ODP problems in one go .

HCs or slightly less HFC 152a will be your answer.

If you believe a little bit in my scribbles:

Then and only then we will need your attention.

That's the only thing I try to bring to this audiance all the time and nothing else.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sofar 4.8 million cars have been converted to HCs and work
perfect, don't tell me about the "Porch" in the US in July last year. Know all about it and it's not important. Any problem
with HCs in cars will be wordwide published. So far.......? Nill

I will be asking again for the 9 time at www.aircondition.com
anybody anything to tell us about HC accidents ????.

So far after asking 8 times no significan answers, so to my opinion it is time to stop all the "B" and talk straight, and not anymore about " is the product made for the fluid" that time is/has passed for 5 years by now and re-using this issue is simailar to some body who does not know where he is talking about.

I appreciate a fair discussion on academic or practical grounds but don't argue with me about '"not designed for etc etc"
that is already proved by 20 million user years ( if you know what that means).

hope this conversation starts at a more technical level than previous participant have tried to.....................

Karl Hofmann
17-10-2004, 11:00 AM
So you didn't get the video of the American guy showing off his engine in his Porsche 928 when his refrigerant hose gave way bathing the engine bay in HCs and flame?. Only one but I can sure find a whole lot of cars that are at risk from fire if they were equipped with HCs.The Mk1 Reault Espace V6 is a prime example. A stainless steel braided flexible refrigerant hose passes very close to the positive terminal of the battery. so close infact that when the battery terminal is un bolted there is a huge risk of the spanner forming a dead short with this pipe , melting through the steel and blowing a hole through the thinwall hose. I have replaced a number of these hoses for this very reason, but have always bound them in PVC tape to prevent a repeat. You see JG, this is what I meant when I suggested that you actually work in the industry before you dictate your dangerous nonsense. Do people really have to be dying before you will acknowlage what common sense will tell us for free?

A large ammount of the global warming issue to me is just junk science, but to me leak prevention and recovery are very important for one simple reason, We all have to breathe the same air, and I for one really dont want to be breathing in a refrigerant blend, to me its common sense.

The car manufacturers have gotten very good at their trade these days and a permanently sealed ac system that stays sealed is possible, but the manufacturers do make loads of cash from their junk ac systems, paper thin condensers, alloy pipes retained with steel clips, O ring connections,then there is the time spent for leak finding, sell the customer UV dye, two recharges, one to find the leak, and another when the leak has been found, and a small pin hole becomes big money. Could a refrigeration engineer get away with selling a 400mm length of 3/8 alloy pipe for £70 plus VAT...Well Landrover do!, and the steel clip that caused the leak in the first place is extra!

Carlo Hansen
17-10-2004, 01:19 PM
I have never said that the GW not is a problem - it is.
Jg/Oz and I just see different ways at this problem.
If it is possible, we should always use a harmless gas for our refrigeration system, and as Jg/Oz mentioned, the EU will do something about this for MACS.
In the EU there will be made a system test with CO2, the budget for this will be about 2 billion EUR. There will be a lot of companyes involved in this project - Hydro Alunova Denmark - Valeo France - Delphi in michigan and the Ford and Fiat companyes.

There has been made some test with CO2 for MACS, see the link from Checco: http://www.shecco.com/artikler/co2moreenergyefficientthanhfc.htm

EU will reduce the CO2 with 8 % and Denmark with 21 %. I think Denmark has to buy some CO2 qoutes in Russia to fullfill this. ( Used air in a plastic bag -- easy way to make some monye)

Best regards
Carlo

jg/oz
23-10-2004, 09:51 PM
Friends,

I have seen more reports on fires with HFC fluids than HC fires
but they both exists. May be the HFC fires are less dangerous than HC fires (?).

Yes I have seen the "Porche" fire but did'nt I tell you that in last first mail!

HFC 134a and oil (with an auto ignition of approx 200 Degr C)
will ignite on an exhaust manifold or pipe without any problem
and has caused numerous fires in cars.

As for working in the Industry after 40 years running in it and both hands-on an using the brain (trying to) I think that I have some experiance, lately interested in the world MACS- problem and trying to solve it.

There is one thing important in the MACS problem:

If you cannot believe in ODP and GW than all discussions are useless. Kyoto is coming into place right now while Russia is signing and may be Kerry (if elected) will sign up after time as well.

The EU is way ahead of the US in getting the latest technologies in place by forcing industry to THINK and reduce
petrol use in cars and reduce pollution at the same time.

I think further discussions are useless if above worldwide views are not accepted by readers of these articles.

May be an article which is an eyeopener for those Non Believers HC can be seen on

http://www.greenchill.org

go into Documents and select the Report:

Greenchills responce to the 1999 Arthur D. Little report for the Alliance for Responsible Atmospheric Policy ( ARAP) which may give you a few views on the US ideas on HC and a worked out
explanation what's wrong with those views.
Have a good read.

Karl Hofmann
24-10-2004, 12:00 AM
JG.

Given that the newest vehicle using R12 is now 12 years old, and that you are concerned with the environment, would it not be kinder to remove these old clunkers from the road and recycle them?

There may be an issue of R134a autoigniting when in contact with a manifold or turbosupercharger casing, but one must also look at the likelyhood of the conditions being right for such an occurance when compared to the number of sources of ignition under the bonnet AND within the cabin. In the case of HCs, although the autoignition point is higher (Although you don't state which oil is used, or the autoignition point of HCs with the same oil) the danger of ignition from an errant spark from the electrical system or static from the driver/seat interface is a far more likely and real. HCs in wafer thin componets and rapidly corroding alloy tubes? No thanks

jg/oz
24-10-2004, 08:07 AM
Friends,

20 million user years with HCs in non retrofitted MACS systems
proof my case. ( if you know what a useryears means).

I rest my case and hope that once in the very far future someone will come to the conclusion that HCs were not so bad afterall.

Similar to the VHS versus Beta case in Video presentation
VHS won, but professionals still use Beta Camera's ( TV producers etc etc).Beta has a much better quality

Anyway you can't win them all.

Nuclear powerstaions are GW free but not to many countries will use it, although France runs 30% of it's energy through this method and so far no problems. USSR did a "botchi" job and ended up with problems.

HCs one day will win in refrigeration and airconditioning with all equipment with has an electrical cord on it 110V or 220/240 Volt. See what Unilever is about and Coke as well as MacDonald.

http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-117979-16&type=News

For cars, may be China will be first with HC for Macs in the local production for approx 1 billion people.
HC cost next to nothing and with 97.5% purity you can easely
locally make it. China has a huge industry in Spraycan-fluid manufacturers which is the driving force for most spray cans.

Anyway we will see.

For those interested in MACS and the newest systems have a look at SAE ( Society for Automotive Engineers USA)

http://www.sae.org/servlets/SiteSearch?qs=&ws=0&qp=&qm=0&ql=&charset=iso-8859-1&nh=25&col=portal&sae_qt1=&qc=&oq=&rq=0&y=1&x=7&lk=1&pw=100%25&rf=0&st=1&la=en&jsp_name=simplesearch.jsp&si=1&ht=0&qt=R152a%20refrigerant&COMMON_SUCCESS=TRUE

have a good read and see what the MACS in USA are saying

wesmax
17-12-2004, 10:07 PM
Here in Canada the gases containing any HC are not very well accepted myself I have used the product Greencool and find it works well in mobile industry and farm machinery, personaly I have had no problems it worked well for me. Another product here is Redtec 12 an r12 dropin.
wesmax

chemi-cool
17-12-2004, 10:12 PM
Is this the stuff called R411B?

Chemi

astroengineer
29-05-2006, 03:48 PM
Hai there is interesting thing in MAC, ya CO2 is going to play major role in MAC, let us discuss that.....

Carlo Hansen
29-05-2006, 05:52 PM
Hi to you Astroengineer.
Yes I do think we should discuss this problem, It seems to me that there is going religion into this.
You can sell CO2 kvotes or sell it, ( bay or sell used air in
a plastick bag ). But if we would use all ouer experience to
make some safe systems, this would not be nessasery.
The old refrigerant is wery good, we just have to use them
with care and make aplliacations there doesent leaks into the air.
I do know this statement will not be accepted by all, but
try to think backwards, and see the problems for all the investment we have to use in the future, to sastisfied all thise clever gays.

Best regards
Carlo Hansen