Ship with no rudder

[monkeydoug]

So another AC firm goes under and starts up the next day with a slightly different name and hey presto no debts! Fridgetech.com is now Fridgetech UK, if they owe you any money good luck. And how can they can keep their Daikin D1 and Mitsubishi accredited dealer status on the website ?

[Toosh]

So another AC firm goes under and starts up the next day with a slightly different name and hey presto no debts! Fridgetech.com is now Fridgetech UK, if they owe you any money good luck. And how can they can keep their Daikin D1 and Mitsubishi accredited dealer status on the website ?

Hi Monkey, I cant wait to read the comments about this one

Norm

[eggs]

I expect around at least 50% of those one man bands out there 'lovin it' will be running for the cover of a big company in the next 2 years if this recession bites as hard as I expect it to...

Richard

If it's true Richards estimation was 12 months out.......It is a one man band isn't (wasn't) it???
Does Monkydoug = Slingblade:)

Eggs

[US Iceman]

I hope someone is not trying to stir something up. It gets ugly every time this occurs.:(

[Peter_1]

When was this post of Richard posted?
Strange things happening.

[Brian_UK]

When was this post of Richard posted?
Strange things happening.
July 2005 and yes.

[chillin out]

Does Monkydoug = Slingblade:)
I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin:):)

[r.bartlett]

If it's true Richards estimation was 12 months out.......It is a one man band isn't (wasn't) it???
Does Monkydoug = Slingblade:)

Eggs

This has been brought to my attention and as my name has been associated with it I will clarify some of the details.


If it's true

It is true Fridgetech.Com Ltd went into voluntary liquidation. FridgetechUK Ltd is the new operating name.My knowledge of the details is sketchy as I only found out this was going to happen when I bumped into Marc on a site and we had a brief chat. (Only the second time I had spoken to him since I'd left)

My association with Fridgetech.Com Ltd ended in August 2007 when I resigned as a Director. I rejoined my old company which I had started back in 1987.
ambientcontrol dot co dot uk



Richards estimation was 12 months out


Indeed it may have been 12 months or a day depending upon how you look at it. I have long been forecasting a big recession when all around were telling me the sun shines forever in Browns miracle economy.However a few reps would more than agree we've been in recession far longer than the stats say.



It is a one man band isn't (wasn't) it???


It was a OMB when Marc started it and it was like that for many years. However at it's height it had in excess of 2m turnover with 6 install teams flat out.



Does Monkydoug = Slingblade:)


No, MD is an ex employee who left about 18 months to 2 years ago.

Cheers

Richard

[al]

Richard

Welcome back, could you be tempted to rejoin with us?

Al

[Daddy Cool]

I think it's good to have anyone return who has knowledge of the industry and experience to offer, regardless of the reasons for their absence. it's tough times out there for everyone, so good luck to Marc, and i hope no-one has suffered personally/financially.

[frank]

Hi Richard......

Nice to see you posting again.

[Andy]

Richard:)

welcome back. I do mean what I say.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[Peter_1]

Same for me Richard, I hope it doesn't stay with only this thread.

[monkeydoug]

No I am not slingblade.

This wasn't the response I was expecting, but I have to say quite an interesting one anyway. Hi Richard, I hope you and yours are well.

I'm a little dissappointed that the point I raised about the manufacturer's approved installer status hasn't invoked a single comment, do they mean nothing except for the ability to offer 5 year parts warranty to clients, and therefore the chance to secure 5 years worth of servicing / maintenance contracts. The only advantage they offer then is purely for individual benefit and doesn't really mean anything to suppliers or competitors.
But, if a supplier has a bad debt with a company should they not have their status revoked?

[Gary]

But, if a supplier has a bad debt with a company should they not have their status revoked?

That's between the supplier and the company. Presumably, each will do what is in their best interests, with no third party interference needed or wanted.

[monkeydoug]

with no third party interference needed or wanted.

As a member of both Daikin and Mitsubishi's approved installer schemes I don't consider myself a third party, I think I am entitled to an opinion on the schemes. I have to send my engineers on the manufacturer training courses in order to maintain the approved installer status, and I cover their wages for the days they attend, all in the belief that this gives me an edge over the competition. In todays "tough" times, anything that gives me an edge over the competition is worth exploiting don't you think?

[Gary]

You may in fact have a legitimate complaint, which you should take up with the manufacturers in question.

[monkeydoug]

The ball is already rolling, thanks for the reply. How are Daikin doing in Florida, do you know Dave Lucas?

[Gary]

I don't know much about Daikin here. Up until retirement (last year) I was working supermarket refrigeration.

[slingblade]

LOL. no monkeydoug is not slingblade, i can confirm this. i only came online tonight to berate the racist brazilians, italians and spaniards after the the historic lewis hamilton victory on sunday and their subsequent uproar about the cheating toyota team. which is unfounded and untrue, also not dissimilar to the germans who swore blind micheal schumacher did not dileberatley ram damon hill off the road in 1993. i digress, i should have started another thread, but this caught my eye. if the fridgetech company has gone under then it is a sign of the times, i would not wish that on anyone (one exception) as most of us who post on here have a mortgage and possibly children to feed. however starting up the week after under a slightly different name needs to be adressed by the government. i feel the dodging of debt by changing company names and directors is as bad as rape or murder. i will point out also i have no idea of the circumstances and comment only on what i have read here.

R bartlett- if that is you then i hope you are well and life is treating you well.

[slingblade]

I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin:):)

Correct, thank you.:D

[multisync]

Originally Posted by chillin out http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/VA_RE/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=123932#post123932)
I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin:):)


Correct, thank you.:D

Lets see here, someone who is using a pseudo name is denying that someone who is also using a pseudo name from not using the other pseudo name.
The one who is using a pseudo name but not the other pseudo name is confirming that he wasn't using the other pseudo name whilst thanking him for pointing out the unlikelyhood of him using the other pseudo name..

*Multisync
London
* Pseudo name

[Brian_UK]

Originally Posted by chillin out http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/VA_RE/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=123932#post123932)
I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin:):)



Lets see here, someone who is using a pseudo name is denying that someone who is also using a pseudo name from not using the other pseudo name.
The one who is using a pseudo name but not the other pseudo name is confirming that he wasn't using the other pseudo name whilst thanking him for pointing out the unlikelyhood of him using the other pseudo name..

*Multisync
London
* Pseudo nameZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, sorry dozed off there for a minute :D:D

[750 Valve]

I just noticed this and hope that too many people haven't been left in the lurch - subcontrators and employees owed money that is.

As for the company owners/directors - mum said if you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all. I will be saying nothing except for karma is a bitch isn't it.

[monkeydoug]

Yes, I do believe what ye sowee, ye reapee..........

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back, but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

Slingblade, you can't go through life just sitting on the fence you know...................

[monkeydoug]

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back, but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.


I stand corrected, it appears that the person doing the bashing wasn't MOB.

[Brian_UK]

I stand corrected, it appears that the person doing the bashing wasn't MOB.
That's why you need to be careful when publishing this type of info. :) Someone, somewhere will bite you in the bum. :eek:

[slingblade]

Hi richard, my interweb shows you as being online now, which means you have logged in since yesterday when you were not online. i understand the whole fridgetech marc o'brien thing must have been very embarassing for you but there are a lot of people who value your input as a seasoned engineer on this forum and i hope you post further.

Monkeydoug- i have never before been accused of sitting on the fence on this website.:p. search my earlier posts for proof.LOL.:cool:

[spacemanmark]

Hi Richard

Its a shame that it took a thread like this to bring you back to the forum. Hope your well my friend, I take it you never made it to Australia?

Take care

Mark Woods

[slingblade]

Sorry to bring up the past, but richard has done one along with my best mate it would seem. i can now lay all my annoyance to the dim and distant past, i beg appologies from whoever i may have upset, but it is now over.
thank fcuk for that.

RIP fridgetech.com. wnakers.:p

Sorry to bring up an old thread but i have only just read all of it.

[al]

You're forgiven and absolved(makes sign of cross), now any chance of the above in english??

al

[DTLarca]

So another AC firm goes under and starts up the next day with a slightly different name and hey presto no debts! Fridgetech.com is now Fridgetech UK, if they owe you any money good luck. And how can they can keep their Daikin D1 and Mitsubishi accredited dealer status on the website ?

It depends on what you mean by debt.

Governments realised a long time ago that there often occur economic events that, by no fault of their own, businessmen suddenly and wholly unexpectedly, cannot pay debts which a few days earlier they fully expected to pay. So they created the limited liability mechanism. The government assures you that provided you do nothing wrong yourself then if a business struggles you are not to worry - they are in it with you for the wealth of the nation. This is how the west got so rich and so very rich that the only reason the east is also somewhat rich is because it has fuel resources made available by means created in the west borne out of a motivation occurring only because of this limited liability mechanism.

After the nasties of the floods 2007 Fridgetech.Com Ltd was completely overhauled over a period of 6 months during the middle period 2008. Work was picking back up beyond its expectations and 8 working days before the financial crash Fridgetech.Com Ltd had sent out 2 new employment contracts to installers it hoped to employ in a hurry. 8 days after those employment contracts went out the financial crash occurred and suddenly all VRV installation projects about to start were either canceled entirely or postponed indefinitely. This is about £600,000.00 worth of installations for which faxed order confirmations had been received and upon which it was decided to send out employment contracts.

The accountant said the company can pull through with some further adjustments.

A liquidating firm were consulted who recommended the company go into administration - having looked at the books they thought it could easily pull through within a few months. It actually turned out that the liquidators were correct - things happened exactly as they predicted meaning had the company gone into administration it would have pulled through and would have been back out within months.

However - I'm a "take no nonsense" person. The financial crash was not my business - it was none of my doing. It might have been Gordon Brown's doing - partially by deregulating the banks or at least removing control of the country's finances from the bank of england. I don't know - I didn't care - since the financial crash occurred through no doing of mine I was not willing to sign any further required sureties. We had had an overdraft facility for years and almost never used it - under other circumstances I would be happy to use it but I was not prepared to use it under the circumstances prevailing October 2008.

My attitude was "Why should I sign personal security for a deeper overdraft when the only thing I can control is the company and not the economy".

Against my brothers wishes I forced everybody to follow me delivering the company, voluntarily, into the hands of the liquidators. My attitude was "There Gordon Brown - you sort this **** out - I'm off to carry on with the other two companies we had running on the side. Those were Powertech and Gastech.

The liquidators asked us if we would want to buy anything from the company in liquidation. We asked "Like what?" and they said "Like all the tools, vans, computers, furniture, customers, contracts - like everything or anything you wanted". They also said that because they can see the books were very likely run without any signs of dodgy doings like jobs for cash and what have you and squandering of income etc it would not be inappropriate for us to also pay a small fee for the company name Fridgetech.

We discussed this with all the staff openly - all transparent - all the staff knew exactly what we were considering.

In the end Powertech paid the liquidators for the name Fridgetech. Paying a fee for the name and all the contracts Powertech was changed to Fridgetech UK. Fridgetech UK then offered all its customers continued warranty coverage of all equipment despite the uncertainties regarding whether the suppliers would still offer the same warranties through Fridgetech UK.

Because I moved very fast on the matter we were able to pay all the staff their full salaries, their full notice pay and their full redundancy packages.

For the last few weeks of the company I brought in all the installers and their assistants and gave them several good days training on service skills. I told them it was to maximise their chances of finding employment elsewhere in these times that seemed possibly to become hard times. I think it was about a weeks worth of training but quite intense lessons including mini-split electronics and subcool and superheat mastery. They all went thereafter to join other companies as service engineers and were very thankful for the training. I am pleased to hear that one of the installation assistants we were putting through college - and on closing the company paid the college the full amount due to see him to the end of the year - now works for the college as their in-house tech.

I am not aware of any subcontractor who was not paid. We did have a problem with a Paul Dougan and his friend who subcontracted to us and almost all of Paul Dougan's customers. We were considering taking Paul Dougan to court. His next employer REFAIR or some such contacted me a few months ago and told me he wants to also take Paul Dougan to court. I told him I would gladly give testament against Paul Dougan. Paul Dougan was a Daikin sales rep who we employed - a very big mistake - I spent almost all of 2008 fixing his project problems when I was hoping to be rebuilding the company after the issues of 2007. I still hope to face him in court - I hope someone shows him this message and maybe we will meet in court one day. I have told the liquidators that if they were to chase Paul Dougan for any lost revenues through the courts they must call me because I am so very very willing to give testament.

All the suppliers, within days, had reestablished accounts with us. And Fridgetech UK was paying the few small debts left unpaid by Fridgetech.Com despite everyone (liquidators and suppliers themselves) telling us that we do not need to worry - that all gets sorted by insurance companies they say - nope, we used profits from Fridgetech UK Ltd to pay those debts anyway.

One supplier had supplied us with a few units with a factory defect - identical problem across the units - but they denied there was a problem - this caused us a little misery and expense and so we did not bother try squaring any debts with that supplier and I couldn't give a damn about them going into the future.

Before 2008 the company was run by no one with any business savvy - only good sales persons and good engineers. Now it is run by a good sales person and a good engineer each who despite all the lessons learned still do not consider themselves business men - just professionals who will forever be riding a boat with all engines on full throttle giving good horsepower but no rudder.

Who needs a rudder when you have so much enthusiasm :)

Business is a gamble and always will be a gamble - if it wasn't then we wouldn't need the limited liability mechanism.

I provide training and consultancy services on the side as a sole trader - not under the limited liability mechanism - but this is because I see zero risk in my system design services or the levels of my knowledge and abilities to impart with it and all cash is paid in advance.

As for D1 status. Well, the company is installing on average 2 VRV system's a month. Very little is bought from Daikin but despite this the company does qualify for D1 status. I never understood the benefits though - I can only remember attending a few days training now and then which makes for a reasonably pleasant laid back day off with a little technical banter.

Fridgetech UK is already owed over £100,000.00 by customers that have gone bust on it. One housing developer who opens a new company each time they develop a new house has in the past few months closed 3 of those companies each owing Fridgetech UK £3000,00 + £4500,00 + £6000,00 but these are the times we live in and so far, despite this, Fridgetech UK is solid and moving more and more also into the chiller market.

Now, if only I could find a few good subcontracting chilled water pipe fitters and, Christ, why is there such a shortage of VRV installing subcontractors??!!

[monkey spanners]

Monkeydoug....Paul Dougan, Paul Dougan....Monkeydoug, (rubs chin), says "I wonder...." :D

[DTLarca]

It was a OMB when Marc started it and it was like that for many years. However at it's height it had in excess of 2m turnover with 6 install teams flat out.

A one man band for many years?

Gosh, I can't remember now.

For the first year the company name was registered but I was mostly making money building websites doing a little subcontracting here and there including a bit for Ambient Control. The first year's turnover was a mere £73,000.00

The turnover doubled every year thereafter till the slump with the cold weather and floods of 2007. 2008 started slow but toward the end we were expecting to turn over in excess of 1 million in the last quarter when bang - the balloon burst. We had invested £36,000.00 in one lump into marketing mid 2008 just after I had restructured the company and had finished properly training everyone into their new roles. This was one of the reasons for paying the liquidators for the Fridgetech name and address and phone numbers etc because the return on that investment was expected only mid 2009 but has really only been realised lately with me having to commission 5 VRV sites these next 2 weeks. Another change in my life - I am reading all the Daikin and Mitsi VRV manuals for a change - this VRV stuff is actually quite interesting. It's the electronics I want to really get into now.

We are doing our best preparations and training organisation to hold the company at a 3 mil turnover with much fewer but bigger projects. It would be nice to get to the stage of just three 1 mil projects a year. But probably an unattainable ideal only useful as a concept worth dreaming about or at least aiming for.

We never did anything to develop the service department - it was always just chugging along quietly in the background acting as assistance to the installation department - especially with LG warranties.

The service department was always subsidised by the installation department and still is but I am looking to change that in the new year. I am putting the service engineers and Subbie's through a pretty extensive training schedule leaning especially toward chillers to the point they can now fully design their own chilled water systems if they had the desire but this approach is picking up good work - when your service engineer rocks up at a problem chiller site for the first time and is able to outshine any of the consultants who have already visited site to discuss quotes - you must be doing something right. I have already won a few chiller replacement jobs in London that under normal circumstances would have been highly unlikely including, according to the one customer, from a company you (Richard) worked for immediately before joining Fridgetech.Com. Anyway from these the profits get counted as service department earnings meaning the department is now already paying its own way for the first time ever and I have only been back 6 weeks :)

[DTLarca]

Monkeydoug....Paul Dougan, Paul Dougan....Monkeydoug, (rubs chin), says "I wonder...." :D
Looking at the Avatar you could be right - I can only wish :D

[DTLarca]

Yes, I do believe what ye sowee, ye reapee..........

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back, but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

Slingblade, you can't go through life just sitting on the fence you know...................

Lol, I should have read the whole thread before replying.

Paul Dougan - is that you? I want our company database back!! I want my life from 2008 back trying to fix your sites!!

I want our customers back!!

What's the idea - leave us with a multitude of sites incomplete and unpaid for and so impossible to complete especially without any money in the job to complete so that we look bad to those customers so that you can take them from us?

I told Sean you could not have planned such an enormous f*uck up and still convince the customers it had nothing to do with you despite you being the sales and projects manager - Sean was right - you took the customers despite me even having to take one to court. I did get a judgment against them but the damage you left behind was of an unimaginable scale. You were too smart to be that incompetent - you are just a deviant!

Anyway - if your last employer does get any money back from you via the courts perhaps there'll be no scraps for me to take :)

Lol, I hope this is Paul Dougan and not some other guy nice guy we employed.

[DTLarca]

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back.

That's because you have no conscience.

I imagine since leaving Airef (is that your last employer?) you haven't looked back either. Has he filed anything with the courts against you yet?

I'm going to phone him tomorrow and ask him how far he got with his desire to file a claim against you. I think he said you had also taken his customer database?

After you left you deleted all copies of your contracts and agreements with our customers drawn up by you. You also deleted all your email conversations with them. Apparently you did the same with Airef?

We lost an enormous amount of money and time because customers left right and center were demanding this and that from us - stuff we do not ordinarily agree to and in the end with some of them we just told them to keep their money - we simply could not find the time to deal with all the nonsense - if only we had copies of the contracts and the emails!!


but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

I probably did - The months in working days I lost trying to sort out all the **** you left behind - Christ it was about 12 days on one legal issue alone including the the two aborted and the one successful court day against Veridium, preparing and filing and replying to counterclaims and so on - Veridium who you apparently also used to connive £40,000.00 or so out of Airef. Thankfully Veridium went bust in the end - you and them made for a great pair of fraudsters.

I hope we get to discuss all this in court one day. I hope I get lot's of opportunity to discuss it with all the supplier reps I come across.

[Brian_UK]

OK guys, whoa there.

Marc, thanks for your open statement about what happened. I've been there myself in a different branch of the trade some years back and it's never an easy or happy time.

As regards who'se done what, to whom and with what I would hope that all of you who are or may be involved in this issue will respect the forum and not get into a deep slanging match.

Thanks Brian

[DTLarca]

OK guys, whoa there.

Marc, thanks for your open statement about what happened. I've been there myself in a different branch of the trade some years back and it's never an easy or happy time.

As regards who'se done what, to whom and with what I would hope that all of you who are or may be involved in this issue will respect the forum and not get into a deep slanging match.

Thanks Brian

No worries.

A little carnage never hurt anyone :)

[eggs]

Evening all.

First off, please let me apologise to both Richard and Marc. I have perhaps in the past made a few unwarranted comments.

Secondly, thanks Marc for your open and honest post.

Thirdly, to the mods. Perhaps you could make this a sticky in the Legal, Business and Marketing forum (if Marc does not object).........to show how quickly and easily it can all go so, so wrong.

I have recently taken a massive hit from ROK, fortunately i will see it through. Although on more than one occasion I have thought "Fuc* it, let the government and insurance companies pick up the tab".

Eggs

[mad fridgie]

And they call this "the season of good will to all men!"

[DTLarca]

And they call this "the season of good will to all men!"

Good will to all men all of the time would be even better - I never understood why only some of the time :)

Good will and good faith should be something we do - not wish.

[DTLarca]

Evening all.

First off, please let me apologise to both Richard and Marc. I have perhaps in the past made a few unwarranted comments.

Secondly, thanks Marc for your open and honest post.

Thirdly, to the mods. Perhaps you could make this a sticky in the Legal, Business and Marketing forum (if Marc does not object).........to show how quickly and easily it can all go so, so wrong.

I have recently taken a massive hit from ROK, fortunately i will see it through. Although on more than one occasion I have thought "Fuc* it, let the government and insurance companies pick up the tab".

Eggs

Sounds good to me, Eggs :)

[mad fridgie]

Limited liability, what was your limit.
Was it proportinal to your companies turnover, if not then it is fair that your suppliers are entitled to ask for a personal guarantee. Business is a gamble, you should be responsible for a good proportion of the risk, if you are going to benefit from the reward.
This is not a dig at you, but at the system where it is way to easy to say you are limited, hock up heaps of bill, then fold. I see it as a house of cards.
I have recently folded one of my companies (all have been paid) due to property developers,.
I had a contractual/legal requirement to warrant equipment i had supplied and installed, but not been paid for. Unfortunate for those who had purchased the property.
I do remember doing a large job with a very large deposit, The client made me give a personal guarantee (home as security)that the money deposit money was to be spent on the project. This ensured we were cash positive and that all suppliers were paid.
I think we should be promoting more transparent money streams.
In NZ a company has been set up where the purchaser deposits the money (ensureing the contractor gets paid) but the money is only released when the client recieves his goods and services. It has a cost, but does give security for both parties (a bit like paypal)

[mad fridgie]

Good will to all me all of the time would be even better - I never understood why only some of the time :)

Good will and good faith should be something we do - not wish.
Agree, but then we live in the real world!
I tend to see the good in all, and in business i do not mind being screwed, but i am so sick of being fcuked as well, GOD i am turning into a "grumpy old *******"

[DTLarca]

Limited liability, what was your limit.

There is no limit provided all is done in good faith.

You can supply me, who currently turns over less than £3 mil with £100 mil worth of VRV or Chiller equipment with 100% interest free credit and so long as I can show my debt to you cannot be paid through no fault of my own - e.g. I did not take payment to me for installing the kit and buy my mom a house - or sell it to someone I knew could very likely have problems paying for it - then I just volunteer the company into liquidation or you force it into liquidation at further cost to you.

Also - if you have received a county court claim in debt for an outstanding bill from one supplier then you are technically insolvent. If you make any further purchases on credit from any other supplier after receiving that claim in debt you will be forced by the courts to pay for all subsequent credit given your company if your company were finally unable to make good those payments itself.

Last year a close friend of my brother's who operated a shop fitting company took all his staff out for a 6K Christmas dinner owing us 5K for many months. January he could not pay salaries. February we filed a claim in debt. March or so the government got involved - turned out he was buying houses for his family on income from supplying equipment he never intended to pay the supplier for. He is expected to do time.

We now have learned that when in doubt get the directors to sign surety personally. I do not even think to deliver a water chiller unless I have a directors signature on a section I have added to our quotes which explains that the director is signing personal surety.

And nothing is turned on until at least 80% of the total project value is properly paid for. Lessons learned make life so much easier.

[750 Valve]

Oh no it can't be..... the oracle has returned!

**bows**

For the life of me I cannot find a copy of the video you once sent me, I needed a good laugh recently and thought of it. You wouldn't still have it would you Marc?

[desA]

A happy fridgie family, it seems...

Ok, to the important part : "Who cut the cheese?" :D

[DTLarca]

Oh no it can't be..... the oracle has returned!

**bows**

For the life of me I cannot find a copy of the video you once sent me, I needed a good laugh recently and thought of it. You wouldn't still have it would you Marc?

Oracle?

Video?

I recall posting links to a few videos but which they were I don't remember.

[750 Valve]

Oh come on yes you do, you made it especially for me, it even starred your big ugly mug.

What a shame its gone forever, it went a long way to show what a really genuine, caring guy you are. Oh well, maybe you will have to post a bit more around here and show us all that famous Marc O'Brien "how to win friends and influence people" personality you have..... or maybe webram can make all the previous posts under your previous username visible to all again - that's be worth a few laughs.

[DTLarca]

I just noticed this and hope that too many people haven't been left in the lurch - subcontrators and employees owed money that is.

Think about this - how much would the sharing of these sentiments help even if any of what you "hoped" would not happen were in fact going to happen or did in fact happen?


As for the company owners/directors - mum said if you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all. I will be saying nothing except for karma is a bitch isn't it.

Your mum was wrong - truths should be argued for all the time even if something is as close to an absolute truth as is possible it still will become just another prejudice to be replaced by some superstitious dogma if you don't continuously keep the arguments for the truth alive.

Secondly - the concept of karma is a mere superstition. Like all superstitions it can only be supported by confirmation bias. How often do you see the less deserved get away with all the best out of a situation after which observers complain that there just is no justice in the world - or perhaps they suffer from the same confirmation bias working in the opposite direction.


Oh come on yes you do, you made it especially for me, it even starred your big ugly mug.

I don't remember - but I probably would do something like that - you are a creepy substance-less kind of person according to my experiences of you.


What a shame its gone forever, it went a long way to show what a really genuine, caring guy you are. Oh well, maybe you will have to post a bit more around here and show us all that famous Marc O'Brien "how to win friends and influence people" personality you have..... or maybe webram can make all the previous posts under your previous username visible to all again - that's be worth a few laughs.

Not only are you creepy and superstitious but you are also what we call, technically, a vulgar.

When it comes to propositions and their meaning generally we make propositions of 5 sorts.

Analytic
Synthetic
Metaphysical
Ethical
Aesthetical

To determine what is meant by an analytical proposition we only need to analyse the words of the proposition themselves. The predicate is contained in the proposition. Like the proposition "Triangles have 3 corners". You do not have to go out into the world to check every triangle to see whether they all indeed have 3 corners. If someone came to you claiming to have found a triangle with 4 corners, 4 sides and 4 angles you would not consider them to have actually found any such triangle - you would immediately explain to them where they are going wrong.

To determine what is meant by a synthetic statement we have to go out into the world and obtain an understanding of the concepts. Like the proposition "Snow is white" is a synthesis of two concepts that do not necessarily conjunct or their conjunction is contingent upon conditions out there in the world and its interplay with the senses and mind.

Synthetic statements have meaning only so far as how, in principle, they can be verified or falsified. Thus metaphysical statements technically have no meaning at all. They are neither wrong or right - they just have no meaning. A proposition, pseudo-synthetic, such as "God is great" actually has no meaning at all - it is wholly meaningless - technically it is sheer nonsense. Like a pigs fart has no meaning at all - not a right meaning nor a wrong meaning.

Ethical propositions and Aesthetic comments are all emotive. They are also neither right nor wrong. You like strawberries I don't. You like mint toothpaste I don't - who is right. You like friends for the sake of having friends - I don't - I'm not going to say you are wrong - that would be prejudiced and even dogmatic and since skepticism and doubt are greatest of virtues available to man below only knowledge I would be the last wanting to be prejudiced. My friends are not sort for by me nor engineered by me - they just happen.

Common sense is false. Common sense tells us the earth is flat, the sun orbits the earth, heavier things fall faster than light things etc - more than 80% of common sense goes wrong. If you seek the truth you will always be pissing people off. It truly is either the truth or friends, if we go by the lessons available from history, it cannot be both. I certainly never learned anything from anyone who agreed with me. And when you choose to follow the rest you have in fact made no choice at all - most people prefer to make no choices in their lives for the sake of friendships, in quantity, but if everyone is a friend then in fact you have no friends at all.

I'm a very emotional person when it comes to a drive for knowledge and truth - I care very much about both - and I'm glad that - according to you - it shows :)

For you to happen to become a friend of mine you would have to grow a little more enlightened - become a little less ignorant.

I'm a caring person - I care that you get this message - for your own good and better still for the good of your family, friends and colleagues.

Here is a video I think it would be worth your while watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e1gdGluXI8

[desA]

At the risk of being flamed -

DTLarca... Don't be overly concerned about the one/s that are trying to wind you up. You've stated your case in an exemplary manner - with courage & conviction.

Life has its way of moving us along roller-coaster rides at times. Time & tides move on - for all men.

[750 Valve]

Where do you get this crazy notion that I would ever "happen to want to become a friend"?

Perhaps second time around you could concentrate on the main reason for this forum's presence rather the usual rants and diatribe you are most famous for, I guess there is little reason for anyone to see your posts of the past if you intend to continue posting in the manner above.

Please carry on and show everyone what a valuable member of the Refrigeration-Engineer.com community you are.

[monkey spanners]

I have spent some little time studying this and i would just like to say for the benefit of those that want to know that,

Karma just means action, thats all. And actions have consequences, some forseen, and others not, some what we call good, some bad, and some neutral. But it all comes round in the end, one way or another.
Taking pleasure in anothers 'bad' karma only serves to add to our own, as does trying to give anothers bad karma a helping hand in punishing them, its not for us to do.

Another thing i would like to say, who wouldn't want to be able to look on any person on the planet and genuinely be able to call them a friend? (not in a sad, putting up with them, or turning a blind eye to some aspect of them way, or thinking they are all you could get and not wanting to lose them, but a genuine friendship, a realisation and acceptance of another being on the same journey, but maybe taking a different route)

I have seen these sorts of posts end in people leaving, and things being said that may be later regretted, i hope this post will be an exception.

Namaste,

Jon :)

[DTLarca]

Where do you get this crazy notion that I would ever "happen to want to become a friend"?

What I am saying is that you are an undesirable. Based on your current form you are like Brussel Sprouts to me - creepy and yukky. That does not mean Brussel sprouts in themselves are creepy and yukky - as the Pyrrhonians (350BC) said "Taste does not exist in the things themselves - taste is given to the things by the senses and mind - what tastes good to one tastes awfull to another and the Jaundiced find sweet things sour and sour things sweet".

Also, you are mistaken - as is common with philosophically vulgar persons - the cereably simple - you see there actually was nothing in what I said that suggested you might happen to want to be my friend. Friendships happen and there is nothing you can do to make them happen or prevent them from happening - they are like beliefs - no one can possibly choose their beliefs - in the same way no one can choose their friends. All I am saying is that if history could be something to go on then history shows that you would have become a little more enlightened, at least a little more skeptical, before you might happen to become a friend of mine. At the moment you are behaving like a flat out cutural dogmatist!


Perhaps second time around you could concentrate on the main reason for this forum's presence rather the usual rants and diatribe you are most famous for.

What is the main reason for this forums presence? When answering that question try avoid being so dogmatic.


I guess there is little reason for anyone to see your posts of the past if you intend to continue posting in the manner above.

There are 3 common types of reasons people appeal to or invoke when active in persuasion, argument or analysis. Those 3 different forms of reason are motives, grounds and causes. You are getting all mixed up between at least the first two. While you personally have motives for that proposition being true you unfortunately do not have grounds upon which it can be a basis for argument - this is why you are forced to conflate with circular reasoning. In a circular manner you are forced to assume to be true precisely the point you have motives for bringing into question - this is vulgar sophistry - you should rather be practicing priest craft, you have no sense of objectivity, and it would also better suit your superstitious nature.


Please carry on and show everyone what a valuable member of the Refrigeration-Engineer.com community you are.

What is a "valuable member of RE"?

Also, if, as you show motives to assert, it is true and at the same time not a good thing then why would you wish it?

[DTLarca]

I have spent some little time studying this and i would just like to say for the benefit of those that want to know that,

Karma just means action, thats all. And actions have consequences, some forseen, and others not, some what we call good, some bad, and some neutral. But it all comes round in the end, one way or another.
Taking pleasure in anothers 'bad' karma only serves to add to our own, as does trying to give anothers bad karma a helping hand in punishing them, its not for us to do.

Another thing i would like to say, who wouldn't want to be able to look on any person on the planet and genuinely be able to call them a friend? (not in a sad, putting up with them, or turning a blind eye to some aspect of them way, or thinking they are all you could get and not wanting to lose them, but a genuine friendship, a realisation and acceptance of another being on the same journey, but maybe taking a different route)

I have seen these sorts of posts end in people leaving, and things being said that may be later regretted, i hope this post will be an exception.

Namaste,

Jon :)

I will sit and have a beer with anyone - they will sit and talk so long as they can keep their emotions and prejudices out of the discussion.

Looking at your Avatar - did you know that Buddhists are as Skeptical as Pyrrho, Sextus Empiricus, Hume and Kant?

The Buddha suggests that a person is made up of 5 Skandhas (bundles).

1) Form - our physical body, including its sense organs; this is seen as constantly changing and completely dependent on its material environment.

2) Sensations - including all sense impressions, also ideas, for the Buddha regarded the mind as a form of sixth sense, gathering and registering ideas.

3) Perceptions - the mind can understand the sensations it receives only by a process of conceptualisation (Leibniz & Kant too). Perceptions then are the "seeing as" of the western world. I look at a hunk of wood pieces arranged in a certain way and I SEE IT AS a table or AS a chair because I have these preconceived concepts waiting in my head to be applied as labels to things as I see them.

4) Mental formations - these are the habitual attitudes and actions that are our response to our sensations and perceptions. They give us our character.

5) Consciousness - this is the fundamental awareness of being alive and processing all that comes to us through the senses. Each sense is said to have its own distinctive form of consciousness.

What is it again a Buddhist says every morning they wake up? Something very skeptical - very healthy skepticism that modern science agree's with? I can't remember what it is but I remember the gist.

[slingblade]

Dartboard on standby. I'll let this one develop.

[Gary]

I recall my father saying to me, "Son, your problem is you would rather be right than be President". He considered this to be a serious character flaw, albeit inherited (from him).

This was driven home later in life when I discovered that being right doesn't get you laid, either.

I would still rather be right than be President, but I manage to temper this just enough to get laid.

[DTLarca]

I recall my father saying to me, "Son, your problem is you would rather be right than be President". He considered this to be a serious character flaw, albeit inherited (from him).

This was driven home later in life when I discovered that being right doesn't get you laid, either.

I would still rather be right than be President, but I manage to temper this just enough to get laid.

In a biography of the Gnostic Alchemist Mystic Carl Gustov Jung - "Inventor" or "discoverer" of the JMB Type Indicator system, or at least most of its foundations, they say of him that, compared to Freud, he displayed intellectual rigour, resisted dogma wherever he encountered it, spent his life refining techniques created by both he and others, and was disposed to confront all important issues head on - even when this meant courting unpopularity or disapproval.

Most people are wrong - if you also want to do and think wrong then follow most people. If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

[mad fridgie]

Most people are wrong - if you also want to do and think wrong then follow most people. If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

If I can reverse this equation, i must be right, because i do piss off a lot of people!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gary]

If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

If you want others to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

[DTLarca]

Most people are wrong - if you also want to do and think wrong then follow most people. If you want to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

If I can reverse this equation, i must be right, because i do piss off a lot of people!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although the reverse of the equation wont work necessarily - the scenario is probably not a coincidence :)

If it is raining the roads will be wet. The roads are wet therefore it is raining. Nope - it could have stopped raining or maybe even it never rained and only snowed much earlier.

By philosophic convention we can only ever be certain that something is not so - not that anything is so. Thus according to philosophic logic the mantra "We find what is wrong with the system by eliminating what is right with the system" is very inadequate when seeking a maximum of certainty. Yet in practice it in fact does maximise engineer performances - thus is something of a paradox.

[mikeref]

It takes enormous effort to keep on the good side of most people, but what they will always remember you for is that one bad encounter, a phrase out of no-where, something said or done and cannot be retracted, then after that, all the good work done is wiped out. If there was no intension of helping anyone but yourself... then:p.. To be.. or not to be,... What was the question??.

[DTLarca]

If you want others to do and think right you have to be willing to piss most people off.

That too makes sense :)

Socrates who gave us such philosophically sound ethical maxims as "Then we ought not to retaliate or render evil for evil to anyone, whatever evil we may have suffered from him." [Plato, Crito 399BC] and in fact gave us all of the Christian ethics such that there is nothing of value that Jesus said that Socrates did not already say yet Socrates was executed for being an atheist and, as we now know, for being right about everything he said.

Something Socrates often says in his dialogues when one of his interlocutors says to him of the other interlocutor "Socrates - I agree with him" he says in reply "No, facts cannot be decided true or false by vote, facts have truth or falsity quite independent of popular opinion - popular opinion cannot decide the truth of facts and more times than not what is popularly thought is in fact also false".

So they executed him - then after studying the dialogues (Plato's) they realsied he had been right - so the city of Athens erected a Statue in his honour :)

[Gary]

So they executed him - then after studying the dialogues (Plato's) they realsied he had been right - so the city of Athens erected a Statue in his honour :)

I'm thinking there is probably more to the story than that. All knowledge is acquired sequentially. We believe D because we believe C, which is a result of our belief in B, which flows from premise A. Nothing changes until A changes. Apparently something happened after Plato's death that changed people's perception of A, after which they accepted his perception of B, C and D.

[slingblade]

Enough is enough. What do you want Marc? When you left the forum in the first place, which was your choice, you requested all your posts were removed which was done as a last request. When you came back you got kicked out almost instantly. Why return now again under another name. I understand some attempt to clear up to whole Fridgetech thing, but you have done that now. No need to hang around.
Spare me any psycobabble response with the overuse of the word Dogma, i know you too well.

[DTLarca]

Enough is enough. What do you want Marc? When you left the forum in the first place, which was your choice, you requested all your posts were removed which was done as a last request. When you came back you got kicked out almost instantly. Why return now again under another name. I understand some attempt to clear up to whole Fridgetech thing, but you have done that now. No need to hang around.
Spare me any psycobabble response with the overuse of the word Dogma, i know you too well.

Hello slingblade :)

I can't remember why I used to pull your tail - I just remember it was fun :)

How have things been?

[slingblade]

That does not answer my question.

[DTLarca]

That does not answer my question.

What do you want out of asking me questions, Slingy boy?

If I better know what your aim is then I possibly could help.

[DTLarca]

I'm thinking there is probably more to the story than that. All knowledge is acquired sequentially. We believe D because we believe C, which is a result of our belief in B, which flows from premise A. Nothing changes until A changes. Apparently something happened after Plato's death that changed people's perception of A, after which they accepted his perception of B, C and D.

The people of Athens, for one, could not discern sophistry from philosophical logic. Because Socrates was pointing out to everyone that most of what they thought as given was in fact false he was mistaken for a sophist. There had also just recently been a period of tyranny by an oligarchy which comprised a few students of Socrates. It was later discovered that Socrates was firstly considered the wisest man in Athens not because he knew more than anyone else but because he knew he knew nothing. He demonstrated to others they too in fact knew nothing. Whereas a sophist tries on illusion out of language to persuade people of anything true or false so long as it benefits them. Telling the difference takes much skill - Socrates mastered that skill. They later realised this when they read accounts of conversations the Athenians had with him. You might say it was the birth of Skepticism that was the change.

[DTLarca]

I'm thinking there is probably more to the story than that.


In terms of knowledge - Socrates came to the conclusion that

The only virtue is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.

He demonstrates throughout his dialogues how this conclusion is derived. It has not been improved on still today.

Everybody wants to do the right thing but no one can do the right thing unless they first know what is right.

Anyway, if you have never read any Socratic dialogues - here is a very short and light reading dialogue but it is also funny and does somewhat demonstrate why they say the scientific method was engineered by Socrates. It takes a short while to get going but it keeps getting better all the way to the quite clever but amusing end.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/ion.html

[Gary]

In terms of knowledge - Socrates came to the conclusion that

The only virtue is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.


I have a different take on virtue and evil, specifically evil:

On a planet where all are color blind, the concept of color would not exist. Someone might mention "color" and everyone would say "Huh?". The concept of color is based in color sight.

Similarly, the concept of morality must necessarily have some objectively existant basis, and that basis can only be rooted in some near universal human instinct.

Such near universality can be found in the concept of self-defense. If defense is not wrong, then that which is defended against must be wrong. When attacked by an animal, it is simply an attack. However, when attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions and view such attack as wrong.

To state this a little differently:

Harming others, except in defense, is morally, ethically, instinctively and therefore objectively wrong. All else is subjective choice of options that are not objectively wrong.

Of course, this primary moral/ethical instinct is not our only instinct and is weighed against other instincts which may conflict, resulting in moral dilemmas and/or rationalizations... and just as there are those who are born color blind, there may be those who are born morality blind.

[desA]

@ Marc,

There seems to be a lot of history to this story that I've not been privy to. This seems to have caused issues on both sides of what is now clearly a divide.

No number of platitudes, oneupmanship, or any other 'remedy' will really assist to bridge this chasm, in my view.

I suspect that you, in the past, may have either intentionally, or unintentionally injured a number of people. For this hurt to be healed, you will have to go the extra mile. A sincere apology & some level of restitution (where required), may be required. A historical account from your perspective has been issued - perhaps this is not enough, though - there are obviously other sides to the real story.

People are amazing in their capacity to forgive a sincere, heart-felt apology. Very often, restitution is simply not even required.

Over to you, Marc.

[DTLarca]

I have a different take on virtue and evil, specifically evil:

On a planet where all are color blind, the concept of color would not exist. Someone might mention "color" and everyone would say "Huh?". The concept of color is based in color sight.

Similarly, the concept of morality must necessarily have some objectively existant basis, and that basis can only be rooted in some near universal human instinct.

Such near universality can be found in the concept of self-defense. If defense is not wrong, then that which is defended against must be wrong. When attacked by an animal, it is simply an attack. However, when attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions and view such attack as wrong.

To state this a little differently:

Harming others, except in defense, is morally, ethically, instinctively and therefore objectively wrong. All else is subjective choice of options that are not objectively wrong.

Of course, this primary moral/ethical instinct is not our only instinct and is weighed against other instincts which may conflict, resulting in moral dilemmas and/or rationalizations... and just as there are those who are born color blind, there may be those who are born morality blind.

A few months back I started drafting an article on morality for the Oxford University Philosophic Society. In fact I have 3 articles in the draft. The first is my argument that there are absolute morals. Most of western philosophy argues there are not. The second is one that explains what philosophy is - it does a little hop skip and jump from Socrates to Aristotle to Epicurus to AJ Ayer on finally to Karl Popper. The third is that banning Burqa's is not a token of the type of meta-ethical concept we call tollerance. I have tested the 3rd against the scrutiny of a number of philosophy lecturers in the UK and France who are facebook friends and they resisted my view for weeks but surprisingly all conceded in the end and started using my same engineered concept to push for a banning of the burqa in their realms.

The first thing to get right is the difference between morals and ethics. Too many people including degreed philosophers I have debated with conflate the two - and it is this conflation that erroniously leads people to think that morals are relative when in fact they are not.

If you do not like the colour I have painted my door you have raised a moral question. What I choose to do about your expressed dislike for my choice of colour is an ethical answer to that moral question - that is the difference between morals and ethics.

Morals are instinctive; they are emotive or are just emotions. That is to stress that they are reflexive.

In the same way that other babies of a nursery start crying when just one starts crying.

Consider how mothers seep milk when some other mother’s babies are crying.

A tiny infant smiles back at you and you feel something good that then carries that smile on.

Morals are at and then also just above this level - they are inherently a part of human nature. They are also human nature.

Animals too, very good examples of morals come from watching animals. In fact, in some ways, I wish we would be more like animals, to the extent that they often demonstrate what I would consider noble traits of altruism. So often they seem more altruistic than we are - see the youtube buffalo versus lion pride videos.

That was all emotion – there were no ethics there – pure emotion – just a clear manifestation of a moral fabric.

Also search for the Leopard and Bobbejaan videos and/or the Crow and Cat videos on youtube which demonstrate the moral “person” inherent, evolutionary, in these animals.

None of these animals have ever read any religious texts. For that matter neither have any of these animals read classical Greek texts from where all of our modern ethics come.

Piranah's feeding - they do not eat each other, those in their past with such morals ate each other into extinction. Those amoral genes were self eliminated.

When we talk about ethics we talk about reason. We are no longer talking about emotions. But about reasoning on how to avoid emotionally negative situations from occurring by drafting contingencies to side step morally negative instances.





In logic, deontic logic, we have moral statements that stand on their own - there is no "set" of premises preceding an argument that follows. Example:

It is wrong to lie
Ergo I will not lie
In fact it will even suffice to simply state "It is wrong to lie" or "we don't lie".





Ethics now gets rather more complex, logically speaking; there is a process of reasoning. Example:

Killing innocents is wrong.
If I drive while talking on my mobile phone I might cause the death of an innocent.
Ergo I will not drive whilst talking on my mobile phone.
Perhaps that is clear enough to explain the difference between morals and ethics.

It seems to be self evident or a definitional truth that the most primitive cultures will have societal customs more in tuned with our "moral" tendencies than any established system of universally respected and cherished ethics.

In Socrates’ dialogue with Euthyphro he demonstrates that no one human believes that it is okay to do a wrong thing. The wrong thing is by definition wrong. Instead we argue over what is wrong.

In the same way I can expand on this and state further that no one can argue about matters of our core morals. They are reflexive and those without them have gone extinct.

Consider a lion that starts to vomit while eating a carcass - the other lions will reflexively also vomit and walk away from the carcass. They walk away feeling sick even if it was not that carcass that caused the first lion to vomit.

No, we don't argue on morals. If we do then they are not morals. What we argue over are ethics. We argue over which of the different reasonings regarding our inalienably inherent morals are superior. And generally the superior are those that are furthest from the reflexive morals but at the same time cater for ALL associated reflexive morals.

I am not a relativist when it comes to ethics. In the same way that I do not believe morals are relative, in so far as they are instinctive, like the lions that vomit when just one of them vomits, I believe that one culture's ethics can be argued to be better than another culture's ethics. You see, ethics are rules of utility – rules intended to maximise the happiness overall. They are our reasoned management of our moral reflexes.

A measure of the success of one’s own culture’s quest in ethics would be to try answering the question “do others from differing ethical environments predominantly wish to migrate to your ethical environment, or from your ethical environment?”

Another measure would be the varying degree's of coercion required to enforce the practices derived from consideration of any moralistic forces. Is "cruelty" required to attain compliance? Or is compliance fully voluntary and a source of "happiness" without any thoughts of "if only...".

Primitive societies are excessively moralistic and as a consequence far too thin on Ethics. A difference between animals and humans is that animals have morals where humans in addition also have ethics.

gary, you say "However, when attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions and view such attack as wrong."

And we would be being evil if we were to mistakenly view a due critique as an attack only because we were ignorant of what was wrong or right in the given situation. Thus goodness can come from no where but knowledge.

Galileo - who was put under house arrest for having the ammoral audacity to launch an attack on the holy book by insisting that the earth revolves around the sun in a time when people did not wish to believe this - was considered a quite antisocial person. You should read his dialogues in which he presents that case for the heliocentric model - it is funny - he makes fun of the Pope by giving the Pope's argument for a Solarcentric model to a man in the book called "Simpleton" :)

[slingblade]

What do you want out of asking me questions, Slingy boy?

If I better know what your aim is then I possibly could help.

My aim is to find out what you want here, hence my question. What do you want Marc? I feel it does not take Plato or Socrates to philosophise too long to get the gist of a question that obvious in nature.
I suspect you want to profess technical prowess and berate stupidity wherever you see it, like you used to, and boy you saw it everywhere.

[DTLarca]

My aim is to find out what you want here, hence my question. What do you want Marc?

I was about to reply to DesA when you rudely interrupted :)

I was trying to get hold of Gary to talk about delivering seminars in the states. I have a contact in New York who acts as an agent for that sort of thing - he arranges everything and pays you a fee. But he then told me to wait till March because if he arranges any seminars for me to speak at now they stand a small chance of being canceled on account of such events as snow storms. So I will speak to Gary closer to the time.

I also noticed a discussion on here happening at that recent time when I was looking for Gary and had a bet with a friend that I could last more than a day on here without anyone knowing it was me - I won the bet. But because I have not been barred from the forums despite everyone now knowing who I am I feel I have been cheated and my buddy has been cheated - maybe the moderators did know it was me on the first day but lately just don't really care anymore - the buggars have forgotten me - I'm not the center of the universe anymore :(

I was driving home from my office today thinking of the days when I created pseudonyms that were obviously created by me - to vote for Hitachi - like Mark O'Brien and RBrattlet - damn I laugh so hard when I remember those days of cheek and nonsense - Like the first ever candid Camera shot with the engineless car rolling down the hill into the garage. Gawd - my eyes are watering now - so funny - those are good memories :)

I did join as Marc O'Brien a year or two ago - I forget exactly when - I visited the forums and saw Gary was discussing something about migration of TEV bulb charges or something and I thought he was overlooking something important so I quickly joined to comment. But of course within hours my access to the various forums was shut down - so I quickly found a forum I could still get into to make a comment - I made a last comment of some cheeky sort - I forget now - and then that was it - all closed down. I knew I would be shut down but I wanted to quickly make a comment under something Gary said and I got the comment through so all was good :)


I feel it does not take Plato or Socrates to philosophise too long to get the gist of a question that obvious in nature.

And you would be quite right - I stalled you there for 16 or so hours by slinging the double sided blade (pun pun) at you called The Socratic fallacy. Just because every attempt you might give to define justice fails or falls flat - it does not mean you do not know what it means. Well done - good answer :)


I suspect you want to profess technical prowess and berate stupidity wherever you see it, like you used to, and boy you saw it everywhere.

And you would be quite correct :)

[DTLarca]

I was thinking of this video a moment ago - not sure why :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

[slingblade]

I was about to reply to DesA when you rudely interrupted :)

I was trying to get hold of Gary to talk about delivering seminars in the states. I have a contact in New York who acts as an agent for that sort of thing - he arranges everything and pays you a fee. But he then told me to wait till March because if he arranges any seminars for me to speak at now they stand a small chance of being canceled on account of such events as snow storms. So I will speak to Gary closer to the time.

I also noticed a discussion on here happening at that recent time when I was looking for Gary and had a bet with a friend that I could last more than a day on here without anyone knowing it was me - I won the bet. But because I have not been barred from the forums despite everyone now knowing who I am I feel I have been cheated and my buddy has been cheated - maybe the moderators did know it was me on the first day but lately just don't really care anymore - the buggars have forgotten me - I'm not the center of the universe anymore :(

I was driving home from my office today thinking of the days when I created pseudonyms that were obviously created by me - to vote for Hitachi - like Mark O'Brien and RBrattlet - damn I laugh so hard when I remember those days of cheek and nonsense - Like the first ever candid Camera shot with the engineless car rolling down the hill into the garage. Gawd - my eyes are watering now - so funny - those are good memories :)

I did join as Marc O'Brien a year or two ago - I forget exactly when - I visited the forums and saw Gary was discussing something about migration of TEV bulb charges or something and I thought he was overlooking something important so I quickly joined to comment. But of course within hours my access to the various forums was shut down - so I quickly found a forum I could still get into to make a comment - I made a last comment of some cheeky sort - I forget now - and then that was it - all closed down. I knew I would be shut down but I wanted to quickly make a comment under something Gary said and I got the comment through so all was good :)



And you would be quite right - I stalled you there for 16 or so hours by slinging the double sided blade (pun pun) at you called The Socratic fallacy. Just because every attempt you might give to define justice fails or falls flat - it does not mean you do not know what it means. Well done - good answer :)



And you would be quite correct :)

I rudely interrupted nothing, muppet. This is an open forum where a member may post on any thread he or she chooses. If my post appears inbetween what you consider a post directed at yourself and a post in response by yourself then you may perceive an interruption, but none is there.
I dont have any views on your response to a post by Gary, or a bet you may have just made up to make some kind of point. I do know however you chose to leave this forum in anger and vowed never to come back, come on Marc a vow is a vow.
You did not stall me for 16 hours as you describe it, i unlike Steven Hawking am not on a computer 24 hours a day. I was sleeping, eating and working before i had chance to respond to your drivel. As for your final point, Yes i am correct.

[slingblade]

I was thinking of this video a moment ago - not sure why :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

Maybe you just like 1970's television comedy, maybe you are mentally ill, i dont know i'm no psycotherapist. I think i can find one in your area via Google if you like.:p

[DTLarca]

Maybe you just like 1970's television comedy, maybe you are mentally ill, i dont know i'm no psycotherapist. I think i can find one in your area via Google if you like.:p

Culture is just a shared psychosis :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEPpY3mtekc

[DTLarca]

You did not stall me for 16 hours as you describe it, i unlike Steven Hawking am not on a computer 24 hours a day. I was sleeping, eating and working before i had chance to respond to your drivel. As for your final point, Yes i am correct.

Careful - you're driveling :)

[desA]

I was about to reply to desA when you rudely interrupted :)


Many thanks, Marc. Anytime you are ready to reply, would be a good one. :)

Reviewing the past discourses, again, I do suspect that anything short of a full apology to the aggrieved members, may come up short, though.

It takes an incredibly brave man, with oodles of testicular fortitude, to admit failure & to say that most difficult of words - "Sorry". :)

[DTLarca]

Many thanks, Marc. Anytime you are ready to reply, would be a good one. :)

No worries - this is a question of beliefs - an epistemological problem.


Reviewing the past discourses, again, I do suspect that anything short of a full apology to the aggrieved members, may come up short, though.

I was an aggrieved member - so much so I demanded that all my posts be deleted and my account be removed. I have had no appology. Although it was a very foolish thing to do - arranging for so many posts to be deleted - even i wanted to refer back to them in later months but couldn't. But then at the time I was an extreemly aggrieved member.


It takes an incredibly brave man, with oodles of testicular fortitude, to admit failure & to say that most difficult of words - "Sorry". :)

It also takes an incredibly brave person to stick to his guns when it comes to his beliefs rather than bow to baseless customs for custom sake. I consider myself a brave person - except when it comes to heights, scorpions, snakes, sharks and spiders :)

If I truly believe that there are two different stars - the morning star and the evening star, Phosphorus and Hesperus, and I argue sincerely that they are two different stars then why should I apologize when later you prove to me they both in fact are just Venus. When you later convince me that they are the same heavenly body being seen on both occasions, the morning and again in the evening, should I apologize? Of course not - I was not deliberately trying to permanently fool you. I simply held a false belief - I was not wrong to hold a belief which till that time seemed sufficiently supported by evidence and argument. I might have been wrong to hold dogmatically to that belief. Sure, perhaps I could apologize for being dogmatic. But what if I didn't realise that dogma is so antisocial and that I was being dogmatic. Again I should not be expected to apologize.

I will never apologize for being me - I am proud of me :)

[Quality]

??????????????????????????????

[desA]

@ Marc,

You know, I've sometimes found it wise to apologise, even if I considered myself to be totally in the right. This may sound strange & it certainly does not come easily to many of us.

What I generally do is to apologise for my part in creating difficulties for others & for the adverse effect I may have had on them. I try to analyse the situation from the other person's perspective - put myself in their shoes, so to speak.

I have always been able to walk away from these events feeling better about myself & my former adversary. More often than not, I have ended up with a new friend. :)

[monkey spanners]

People don't have to admit (or for there to be any) wrong doing or such, to say they are sorry for how things worked out or to reconise anothers unhappiness. All they are doing is expressing their sorrow that things could have gone better and people are upset.

I would like to say how sorry, genuinely sorry i am about how things have worked out and seem to be still working out. I don't know any of the history of this all and truth be told i'm not interested either, no good comes from going over things you can't change, by all means learn from it, but like a red hot coal it needs to be let go or it will continue to do harm.

Jon :)

[DTLarca]

@ Marc,

You know, I've sometimes found it wise to apologise, even if I considered myself to be totally in the right. This may sound strange & it certainly does not come easily to many of us.

What I generally do is to apologise for my part in creating difficulties for others & for the adverse effect I may have had on them. I try to analyse the situation from the other person's perspective - put myself in their shoes, so to speak.

I have always been able to walk away from these events feeling better about myself & my former adversary. More often than not, I have ended up with a new friend. :)

But you see DesA - this is exactly the sort of thinking that I am trying to change in the world. I believe it is like me not only trying to convince people that the earth orbits the sun, not the other way round, but also they should be more open to such truths and be less sensitive to ideas that contradict their thinking. Then you come to me and say - I find the best way about this is to just ignore the matter of the earth and sun and rather be sensitive to their feelings on the matter which will also make you happier. I say "No!" you don't get it - I believe they are wrong and I believe they should learn that their sensitivities have absolutely nothing to do with the truth and I in fact will not be happy until that time arrives.

I love the subject of Social Psychology - have read here and there on the subject for years. I have a list of my favourite books on the topic - I can email it if you wish. Come to think of it - here is a great series of brilliant lectures on Social Psychology - about 40 hrs worth by a very articulate lecturer on the topic from UCT Berkley (Robb Willer). I recommend anyone interested in how people think and how such actions and thoughts such as apologizing, forgiving and being thankful effect out minds and body chemistry. Funny thing is nothing in these books and lectures was not already in the books from 500BC to 200BC written by the Greeks - I watched the whole lecture series last December and while watching it I kept thinking "Yeah, I know that - Socrates said that or Plato said that or Aristotle explained that or Epicurus insisted on that etc" - nothing new under the sun as they say :)

http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details_new.php?seriesid=2009-B-81852&semesterid=2009-B


As Socrates said when they tried to get him to appologise at his trial - he was given the choice of either execution or appology. The whole speech he gave is called "The Apology". Socrates stayed true to his beliefs - he drank the hemlock.

You can read Socrates Apology here...
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html

My position is derived precisely out of putting myself in the other peoples shoes and thinking "WTF is wrong with these people?"

[slingblade]

Exactly the sort of response i expected from you Marc. Just like the Stig on BBC's top gear, technicaly correct but with no emotion and no idea how to deal with human beings. How on earth you profess to write papers on psycology i will never know. Yet again you miss the point, which is :- Many people are upset with you, please apologise for your disgusting actions in the past. If thereafter you continue to post, we as a comunity may accept you back. Think it over, Socates would.

[DTLarca]

Exactly the sort of response i expected from you Marc.

Indeed, I am consistent - aren't I.


Just like the Stig on BBC's top gear, technicaly correct but with no emotion and no idea how to deal with human beings.

If you think I am correct then why do you not apologise?

My emotions are stronger than yours. Everything we do outside of instinctive reflex is done only out of desire. I do what I do because my emotional drive to do so is quite powerful and certain.

Even a person who intends to be entirely rational without any emotional influence can only have such desires because of an associated emotional drive.


How on earth you profess to write papers on psycology i will never know.

Psychology? I do nothing of the sort. I write about the physics of fridge and I do a little analytic philosophy. I do a little conceptual engineering - that is technical philosophy - metaphysics, epistemology and logic - I build arguments to stand on their own merits and properly independent of opinions. I mostly write those technical philosophy articles because I think there are too many people like you in the world. You literally have no idea of what you are talking about. You commit the ad homonym fallacy but at the same time you know so little - so very little - you have no idea of how nonsensical you are.

Wait there - have to fetch some stuff I posted before... here we go. Okay:

The ad homonym move is an argumentative move and a wholly legitimate demonstration of another person's inconsistency. This is also known as the "you too" or "tu quoque" move as opposed to the "tu quoque fallacy" which is identical to the "ad homonym fallacy".

For example - if someone argued that all killing is ethically wrong and that there is nothing unethical about capital punishment then provided you can demonstrate that capital punishment is a form of killing, then, in pointing out the obvious contradiction, you would be making the ad homonym move with legitimacy.

On the other hand, the ad homonym fallacy is committed when an antagonist brings into the discussion an irrelevancy. If someone argued that we should not take seriously the findings of a medical scientist who had researched the beneficial effects of jogging on the cardiovascular system on the grounds that the scientist was overweight and probably could not even run 100 yards then a matter utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand would have been introduced to the discussion. As Jamie Whyte likes to put it "The antagonist might just as well have stated that in Spain it rains mainly on the plains for all it adds to the topic at hand". Because the two claims can be true at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive. The one does not contradict the other and nor is the one contrary to the other. In which case the antagonist has merely changed the subject to an irrelevance. I would normally then tell the antagonist that they probably are correct about the claim made about the scientist's personal health but this is not actually the time nor place to discuss such matters and could we rather get back onto the the other very unrelated topic of the benefits of jogging. You see, the scientist was not asking people to take his claims on faith or by testament but instead by analysis of evidence and argument. And anyway his personal fitness does not necessarily detract on its own from any value his testament is ordinarily given.

In short - just because I do not like your personality and you do not like mine it does not mean I am incapable of understanding and explaining yours or you mine. The arguments you put forward or I put forward have to stand on their own merit independent of our own strengths and weaknesses.

In fact one of the greatest theoretical psychological analysts, Jung, had the same personality as me and pissed all his colleagues off big time but still to this day we use his methods. According to Jung's method of typology this is my personality of late:
http://www.typelogic.com/intp.html


Yet again you miss the point, which is :- Many people are upset with you, please apologise for your disgusting actions in the past.

No - you are missing the point - please list all these disgusting actions :)

Let's analyse them one by one. I have saved print out to PDF of several of the old discussions and those last discussions before I left. I do not think it appropriate to repost them here but if you insist then I can arrange this :)


If thereafter you continue to post, we as a comunity may accept you back. Think it over, Socates would.

It's a little community here now? A little clique like thing? To hang around on this street corner we all have to wear a certain style hood, no belt and blue jeans covering at least our thighs. If you, Sling, have a community I would like smash it a little - shake it a little - and then rebuild in into something a little more respectable.

You haven't changed - Sling - your just as simple as you ever were.

[DTLarca]

Think it over, Socates would.

The difference between you and I, Sling, is precisely that I am a thinker and you are not.

Socrates did think it over - read Plato's Apology and Plato's Crito - Socrates chose to drink the hemlock rather than bow to intellectually undeveloped characters like you. Not to spite people like you but to defeat the intellectual nonsense that oozes from the orifices of people like you.

Do you know why they called it the renaissance and the enlightenment? Renaissance means rebirth. Around the 1500's there was a rebirth of Socratic thinking which resulted in our final freedom from the church. Socrates knew he was right and he was willing to die for it. That is my kind of guy :)

If you had read anything of Socrates you would not have said that.

[Goober]

I actually thought this was a good thread about business's failing and someone genuinley giving their side of the story....that is up untill or about when 750Valve jumped in......then its gone all a bit weird (not because of 750..) who reads all this crap being posted? And what relevence does it have here? Obviously some history here between parties. But really...from someone on the outside looking in...WTF!

[DTLarca]

I actually thought this was a good thread about business's failing and someone genuinley giving their side of the story....that is up untill or about when 750Valve jumped in......then its gone all a bit weird (not because of 750..) who reads all this crap being posted? And what relevence does it have here? Obviously some history here between parties. But really...from someone on the outside looking in...WTF!

I keep thinking of this video :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

[stufus]

I actually thought this was a good thread about business's failing and someone genuinley giving their side of the story....that is up untill or about when 750Valve jumped in......then its gone all a bit weird (not because of 750..) who reads all this crap being posted? And what relevence does it have here? Obviously some history here between parties. But really...from someone on the outside looking in...WTF!

I agree Goober , It all went a bit pear shaped. And what's with all this philosophy jargon ???:confused:
I much preferred Socrates when he was merely a simple footballer..:p

[desA]

http://cutepics.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/cute-white-kittens-playing-img116.jpg

http://www.innocentenglish.com/cute-pictures/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cute-kittens-playing-outside.jpg

http://www.innocentenglish.com/cute-pictures/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/two-cute-kittens-sleeping.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_y4bC6-uVGFM/SLQO45ZYZ1I/AAAAAAAAAFo/fN8Fwp55aDU/s400/kittens+of+cuteness.jpg

[Peter_1]

Hey, desA, that's finally a good post with no words expressing o so much ;)

[slingblade]

Well draughted and thought about response. My apologies, i thought you were a dimwit. However you have just proven you are mentally unstable, and i will treat you as such from now on wards. thanks Marc. Apology accepted.

[750 Valve]

A Leopard can't change it's spots.

[coolhibby1875]

i have not enjoyed reading a post as much as this 1 in years, keep it up guys.

[buddy]

[QUOTE
This is how the west got so rich and so very rich that the only reason the east is also somewhat rich is because it has fuel resources made available by means created in the west borne out of a motivation occurring only because of this limited liability mechanism.
QUOTE]

Apologies to pick on your history but you will find it is actually "Fractional reserve banking" that created easily available credit that fueled business expansion in the west.

You may think Fractional reserve banking is off topic but it is not, it the global financial system that we have with us today and the spectre of this financial system we have been born into is controlled by a few powerfull people that effects every one your businesses and employment that is being discussed.

Simply put - The fractional reserve banking system creates money out of nothing and Banks loan money they dont have.

Now heres the rub -

As example just last month the UK Government borrowed 22.5 BILLION pounds, whats to stop the Government borrowing a trillion pounds from the banks...nothing! because this and future governments have these suckers called tax payers and there children and there childrens children to pay it all back...so your children are born into debt when they take there first breath.

There is no Government accountability over borrowing limits (The last Labour government was the worst) and that is what affects the economy now (your business and employment).

Please view this simplfied animation called "Money as deb"t by Paul Grignon (1 0f 5)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndKlWQfQ_tI

If you dig deeper you will find that the Federal Reserve Bank in the US is not the Government bank, it is a private bank run as a business by unkown individuals?? (Google it).

Same as the Bank of England it is the only registerd business in the UK where the anonimity of the Directors of the B of E is protected by law??

If you aquire knowledge of how banks behave it is nearly enough to convert you to becoming a communist...but they havent got the answers either.

Full reserve banking is the way to go but the anonymous controllers of the banks wont let that happen, they are just far too powerfull for any government to tackle.

He who controls the money supply controls the World.

Have your eyes glazed over yet? :)

[DTLarca]

A Leopard can't change it's spots.

And nor should it :)

[DTLarca]

Apologies to pick on your history but you will find it is actually "Fractional reserve banking" that created easily available credit that fueled business expansion in the west.

No, not at all, I do not mind. My limited knowledge comes from reading this book last year:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crunch-Incompetence-Sparked-Credit-Crisis/dp/1847940099/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1292964052&sr=8-3

It also explains what it is you talk about. Similarly part 3 of http://www.zeitgeistthefilm.com/ tackles the topic you bring up.

[buddy]

No, not at all, I do not mind. My limited knowledge comes from reading this book last year:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crunch-Incompetence-Sparked-Credit-Crisis/dp/1847940099/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1292964052&sr=8-3

It also explains what it is you talk about. Similarly part 3 of http://www.zeitgeistthefilm.com/ tackles the topic you bring up.

Yes the system we are born into sort of reminds me of the first movie of the Matrix trilogy starring Keanno Reeves, whereby people just go about there daily lives completely ignorant of the fact that they are enslaved.

Google the Bilderberg group and the Rothschilds it only gets worse.