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john g
23-10-2008, 09:19 PM
Hi guys,

Im new here, but have found various threads really useful.

I am currently tryinhg to build a cold store for fairly short term storage of home butchered meats and packing etc.

I have constructed a room approx 12' long, 10' wide and 8' high, inside an already insulated barn.

I have built the room out of 6" interlocking PU panels from an old meat plant and have an insulted door and floor. I am proposing to then fit a vapour barrier and a 'wipe clean' surface inside.

What is the simplest, cheapest to run refridgeration unit to keep the temperature about right?

I was given a small fan/compressor/condensor (?) unit by a friend which has R134 in it (?) but I have no idea if this is any good for what I need or how to set it up to cool the room.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

John

Brian_UK
23-10-2008, 11:31 PM
Welcome John and good luck with your project.

I feel a great stream of questions coming your way over this one :)

Peter_1
24-10-2008, 05:50 AM
....
I have built the room out of 6" interlocking PU panels from an old meat plant and have an insulted door and floor....

You may never insult your floor nor your doors. :p

We certainly need type and makes of the components you have.
Will there be a long term storage of fresh unpacked meat?
Will you need also a quick chill of the warm meat with this unit?

nike123
24-10-2008, 07:22 AM
What would be frequency and quantity of new meat loading? What type of meat and how much will be introduced.
Does hot meat will be introduced in cold room while in there is already cooled meat.
What is maximum outside temperature?
What is entering temperature of meat?
What is puling down time? (time to achieve desired meat temperature)
How often would door be opened (regular, heavy, long storage)?

john g
24-10-2008, 08:35 AM
Thanks for the response so far! sorry for insulting my walls and floors!!

What would be frequency and quantity of new meat loading? What type of meat and how much will be introduced.

we will be bringing in around 200kg of pork every month. most will only be stored and then vacuum packed on the same day and then sent out but some (50kg?) will be hung/shelved for longer.

Does hot meat will be introduced in cold room while in there is already cooled meat.

No, just fresh (cooled) carcasses and butchered joints.

What is maximum outside temperature?

In the insulated barn its a fairly constant 40F

What is entering temperature of meat?

Difficult to say, but it will have come from being in the abbatoir cold store overnight.

What is puling down time? (time to achieve desired meat temperature)

I guess no great panic over this as it will already be cool?

How often would door be opened (regular, heavy, long storage)?

Only a couple of times a day.

We certainly need type and makes of the components you have.

The compressor tank is marked 'electrolux' and looks about 3 or 4 litres. The refridgerant tank is a bit smaller and marked 'eco' and the label says R134. There is a fan stuck on the back of a radiator type unit with what look like coils in behind it. The rad area is about 18" square and the whole thing sits on a littel board with a lead and plug and a little adjustable pressure switch type unit on top.

What I dont know is a) is this any use for me? b)do I stick it in a hole in the wall like a window AC unit? c) which way round would it face!?

nike123
24-10-2008, 10:14 AM
we will be bringing in around 200kg of pork every month. most will only be stored and then vacuum packed on the same day and then sent out but some (50kg?) will be hung/shelved for longer.


So, it will be 200kg at one time max?




What is maximum outside temperature?

In the insulated barn its a fairly constant 40FIt cannot be whole year that temperature inside!
Also, if you plan to leave condenser inside, that temperature will rise considerably if you don't have sufficient ventilation.
If you , on the other hand, have sufficient ventilation, than indoor temperature will be greatly influenced with outdoor air temperature and cannot be at steady (odd) 40F.


What is entering temperature of meat?

Difficult to say, but it will have come from being in the abbatoir cold store overnight.Is it OK to say 50F?

nike123
24-10-2008, 10:38 AM
What is puling down time? (time to achieve desired meat temperature)

I guess no great panic over this as it will already be cool?

Ok, but you probably know that meat cant be to long at temperature higher than 40F because of bacterias increased growth at higher temperatures. Therefore, cumulative pull down time (if pull down is needed) must be short as possible.

Brian_UK
24-10-2008, 12:44 PM
The compressor tank is marked 'electrolux' and looks about 3 or 4 litres. The refridgerant tank is a bit smaller and marked 'eco' and the label says R134. There is a fan stuck on the back of a radiator type unit with what look like coils in behind it. The rad area is about 18" square and the whole thing sits on a littel board with a lead and plug and a little adjustable pressure switch type unit on top.

What I dont know is a) is this any use for me? b)do I stick it in a hole in the wall like a window AC unit? c) which way round would it face!?It seems as though you only have one half of the required equipment. That 'condensing unit' needs to be located outside to discharge the heat removed from the cold store.

Inside you need an 'evaporator unit' to provide the cooling to the inside; this seems to be missing.

Grizzly
24-10-2008, 01:58 PM
John
Thanks for posing an interesting question.
But for someone as intellectual as an Architect (your listed occupation).
May I humbly suggest you enlist the services of a local company or Engineer.
Without! I feel this could all end up a right "pigs ear".
Joke (I have been dying to say that!)
Seriously though it is Illegal for anyone without the recognised "safe handling"
Certificates. To work on certainly a project like this.

When chilling meat such as Pork. It is not unusual to see possibly say a 2lb reduction in carcass weight. On an average sized pig.
Purely due to the high amount of moisture (water) extracted fro the carcase during chilling.

Ask any fridge engineer and he will tell you that high moisture content in a chill room... Spells trouble.

Basically this project has a lot of pitfalls that would take a long time to sort out on this forum.
(Sorry Guys! It is not my place to dictate whether people choose to further contribute, I just felt I would clarify some of the issues being discussed)
Grizzly

john g
24-10-2008, 03:09 PM
Yes it is 200kg at a time in one hit on the day or two after slaughter day each month.

I had planned to vent heat to outside.

and temperature doesnt range too far as its almost always pitch dark and well insulated. I will check though!

Points also taken about the need to control humidity. We do alot of air curing hams, biltong, salamis etc and know the risks!

Inside you need an 'evaporator unit' to provide the cooling to the inside; this seems to be missing.

This is what I thought, would that be what attaches to the two crimped pipe ends?

Regarding the points about getting 'qualified' guys in. I will of course bring in the experts for the fitting and commissioning. I just like to know how things work when Im planning and building. That way I can do alot of the graft and learn as I go.

I for one am a great believer that the architectural profession should have as much practical knowledge as possible, I was so frustrated by the lack of this that I gave up building after 18 years and infiltrated the enemy!!

john g
24-10-2008, 03:58 PM
Basically this project has a lot of pitfalls that would take a long time to sort out on this forum.

Im not entirely sure what you mean here Grizzly, surely its about seeking advice and getting more experienced folks views on the best way to go to chill a room of a given size.

Grizzly
24-10-2008, 04:17 PM
Basically this project has a lot of pitfalls that would take a long time to sort out on this forum.

Im not entirely sure what you mean here Grizzly, surely its about seeking advice and getting more experienced folks views on the best way to go to chill a room of a given size.

You are absolutely correct John.
What you say is true, We do share knowledge and experience.

But by me playing devils advocate and you in response giving good and reasonable answers.
( Prior to these it was all a bit vague!)
May just mean that someone will be willing to design your system for you!
Good luck Steve.
PS where are you based as these cured hams etc. sound tempting!

Peter_1
25-10-2008, 06:54 AM
....
The compressor tank is marked 'electrolux' and looks about 3 or 4 litres. ..and a little adjustable pressure switch type unit on top...
A 3 to 4 liter Electrolux and even with an adjustable pressure switch...mmmmmm...looks more like a watertank.

nike123
25-10-2008, 09:45 AM
The compressor tank is marked 'electrolux' and looks about 3 or 4 litres. The refridgerant tank is a bit smaller and marked 'eco' and the label says R134. There is a fan stuck on the back of a radiator type unit with what look like coils in behind it. The rad area is about 18" square and the whole thing sits on a littel board with a lead and plug and a little adjustable pressure switch type unit on top.

What I dont know is a) is this any use for me? b)do I stick it in a hole in the wall like a window AC unit? c) which way round would it face!?

Make few detailed photos of that unit with attention to any label. Upload that to photo bucket or simmilar picture service and post here links to picture.
Edit links something like this: zzz.photobucket,com/kjdfns

expat
25-10-2008, 08:41 PM
Points also taken about the need to control humidity. We do alot of air curing hams, biltong, salamis etc and know the risks!

If you're going to be doing biltong in England, vacuum packed, I take it you can get it out to me in France.

I love that stuff. Please let me know how to get it. PM me or otherwise!

Grizzly
25-10-2008, 10:43 PM
Points also taken about the need to control humidity. We do alot of air curing hams, biltong, salamis etc and know the risks!

If you're going to be doing biltong in England, vacuum packed, I take it you can get it out to me in France.

I love that stuff. Please let me know how to get it. PM me or otherwise!
please form a que behind me!
Grizzly

taz24
26-10-2008, 10:44 AM
Basically this project has a lot of pitfalls that would take a long time to sort out on this forum.

Im not entirely sure what you mean here Grizzly, surely its about seeking advice and getting more experienced folks views on the best way to go to chill a room of a given size.


Somthing like this

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:jsp_1P1wc7J-3M:http://www.cubigel.com/cubigel/download/compressors_condensing_unit.jpg

taz

taz24
26-10-2008, 10:55 AM
Yes it is 200kg at a time in one hit on the day or two after slaughter day each month.

I had planned to vent heat to outside.

and temperature doesnt range too far as its almost always pitch dark and well insulated. I will check though!

Points also taken about the need to control humidity. We do alot of air curing hams, biltong, salamis etc and know the risks!

Inside you need an 'evaporator unit' to provide the cooling to the inside; this seems to be missing.

This is what I thought, would that be what attaches to the two crimped pipe ends?

Regarding the points about getting 'qualified' guys in. I will of course bring in the experts for the fitting and commissioning. I just like to know how things work when Im planning and building. That way I can do alot of the graft and learn as I go.

I for one am a great believer that the architectural profession should have as much practical knowledge as possible, I was so frustrated by the lack of this that I gave up building after 18 years and infiltrated the enemy!!


It will look somthing like these when complete.

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/taz24_01/thermostatcoldroom.jpg



http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk223/taz24_01/cooler.jpg

taz

john g
26-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Firstly Taz24 wrote

Somthing like this

Exactly like that!!

john g
26-10-2008, 12:54 PM
Secondly, Alleluliah!!

now were talking.
so when scavanging around for a suitiable evaporator is there anything I need to ensure.


PS I will be happy to send out Biltong!!

Electrocoolman
27-10-2008, 02:48 AM
John, somewhere on the base of the condensing unit there should be a label with the type code of the unit. Failing this, the compressor (large black oval cylinder) will have a code on it.

We will need this inorder to see if the duty (ie how much heat it can remove) is suitable for your purpose.

The previous posts have all been trying to work out what heat load you are trying to cool, which determines what the capabilities of the system need to be.

multisync
27-10-2008, 10:07 AM
The next stage will be "I've bought some bendy copper and some of that funny cold stuff off ebay -how would I go about doing it.."

If he wanted to 'know how things go together' he would buy a book. No, he is a DIY'er pure and simple..

I'm out

Multisync
London

P.S you can buy Biltong on almost every high street