Ammonia for residential use

[MatiZaidman]

Hi Guys, Can any of you direct me to standards dealing with ammonia use for residential air-conditioning? In the US? In Eu?
Thanks.

[Grizzly]

Mati.
I will be intrigued if anyone does answer your question correctly.
I have never heard of an Ammonia powered A/C for Housing?
Anyone??
Grizzly

[MatiZaidman]

Since there are RV air-conditioning units and some old refrigerators that work on ammonia (are these gas fired machines still produced?) it seems that the safety issues can be taken care of. So I figured that the reason they are not produced (or developed or even talked about) is because of some kind of legislation either by standards or local regulations which everybody knows about but me. I couldn't find it by searching the net so it remains at:
Anyone?
Mati

[Argus]

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In the EU, the rules on higher toxicity refrigerants are in EN 378, mainly part 1, but read the lot. (There is a revised Part 1 about to be published soon. Parts 2, 3 & 4 were revised in 2008 ).

There's a big difference between small absorption table-top fridges and large systems with Ammonia.

In general, direct systems using Ammonia in occupied spaces are discouraged in EN 378 in favour of indirect applications.


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[icecube51]

i could be wrong, but was there not in the old days a AC window type on NH³ ??

Ice

[MatiZaidman]

Thanks Argus, Do you know about an indirect, residential, NH3 based, systems? I'll be very interested to know if somebody makes them (or made them in the past).
Does anybody know bout the equivalent US standard? I could not find any that specifically talks about refrigerants from the safety point of view.

Icecube51, could you dig into your memory for details? Was it a gas fired machine? Real portable window size unit?
Thanks,
Mati

[Argus]

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I can't speak for your part of the world, but Ammonia of any kind in residential applications would be very difficult to get past the planning rules in the UK. It's a non-starter.

Having said that, there are outdoor packaged chillers on the market using Ammonia and other NIKs. These crop up from time to time in commercial applications. But, consider the cost implications for insurance using hazardous gases.

Forget DX units in occupied spaces, for obvious reasons.


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[keepitcool]

In the northeast US we have a hard time getting cities to let us put in NH3 for industrial use. Maybe it is for safety or maybe it is because Dupont is based here. Who could say, but the only residential use for ammonia I know of is in small absorption units.

[MatiZaidman]

Thanks guys,
So, I understand that ammonia in the house are not approved by the authorities and even indirect systems are discouraged. How about LiBr systems with the system itself out of the house and only the evaporator (H2O) in the occupied space?
Mati

[icecube51]

take a look here,

http://www.articlesbase.com/accessories-articles/history-of-the-air-conditioner-425063.html

i new that there was something in the old days working on NH³.

Ice

posted twice a link here, but it was in the early 20Th's that Carrier had an window type "air conditioner". see under history of air handling on the web.

Ice

Here ya go

it is in the works

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6349558.html

coming to a frig near you

[McFranklin]

Robur is heavily involved in absorbtion chillers. They bought the Arkla Serval line. These were/are aquaeous ammonia solutions units that can use propane or natural gas as the heat source in the refrigeration cycle. I have seen window units. the company where I work received an repair request last month, we do not do residential work, so we gave contact information for Robur. The guy called us back to thank us because he was able to get his problem resolved. So they are still in business. It's a niche market but in the southern U.S. it can make economic sense, particularly if you live on top of one of the natural gas fields.

[OffGridder]

Robur is heavily involved in absorbtion chillers. They bought the Arkla Serval line. These were/are aquaeous ammonia solutions units that can use propane or natural gas as the heat source in the refrigeration cycle. I have seen window units. the company where I work received an repair request last month, we do not do residential work, so we gave contact information for Robur. The guy called us back to thank us because he was able to get his problem resolved. So they are still in business. It's a niche market but in the southern U.S. it can make economic sense, particularly if you live on top of one of the natural gas fields.
Thanks for posting the info about Robur. I have been looking for something like this for a while now, even trying to have a system built for me. I'm trying to figure out just how much power is needed for the air cooling absorption systems. I'm wondering how many solar panels might be needed for a total off grid setup. I sell propane and natural gas refrigerators and freezers here in the US and get calls for this quite often.

[MatiZaidman]

Dear OffGrider,
I have never heard of an air cooled absorber in the range that will be sufficient for house air conditioning. I did read some papers claiming it might be possible but can't recall that somebody actually built one. Do you know of such a system?

[Break7]

Hi guys I've worked as an electrician in Los Angles for 23 years and years ago there were quite a few gas powered air cond units. They were split systems. They looked like big 5ton condensing units with a gas line.Owners usually say that it never worked well. They are almost all gone now. I'll try to get a picture of one. Of course I'm assuming they're NH3.I have also seen some apatments that were built in 1920's with steel lines in electrical flex and boxes when I cut the lines it smelled like ammonia. It had been long since been disconnected.

[malik55]

May be intresting for you,
world.honda.com/news/1998/page312.html

[717_dealler]

Dear members, I am a new member in the forum , I joint in to looking for a technical & practical information about ammonia absorption air conditioning machines, specially Robur trademarked .
As I know u had worked with such kind units .
I wonder if u could give me a hand to understand it more better.
First , how can that machines work at low temp. lower than freezing temp. of water which still solute in small portion even when ammonia vapor leaving the generator & condensing without block the pipeline of liq. Ammonia after the expansion device as happen in R-12, R-22 machines ?
Thanks a lot for your time
717_dealler

[fe02farms]

I have been reviewing Ammonia absorption units for along time and as to date, the data I have collected is limited... in answer to your questions. This is what I have learned so far: that it take on a single stage absorber 1 BTU of heat will move .4 - .6 BTUs of of heat in a two stage absorber 1 BTU of heat can move .6 - 1.4 BTUs moved...
I have spoken to the Department of Energy about the asorber system they are working on and they are trying to perfect a triple absorber system the problem that they are running into they need 700+ F to get their system to work. ps, they offered very little help on the research of the absorption technology
Most of the current absorber system are in the 50 to 100 ton and up and the systems are based on a lithem bromide systems
Now with this base in place If you start looking up the older ASHRAE books you will find some generic designs of the absorber systems.
I would like to find some one who knows the smaller absorber systems to understand what the sulfur base rust inhibitor was used and more detail of the building of the older systems....

I would like to start a forum of like minded reasurch on the design and building of a system for chilling water to use in A/C

[sterl]

There are a number of patents and articles on the web by Mr Ben A Phillips of St Joseph MI who developed an aqua based Heat Pump/Chiller which used a straddle type unit with incorporated heat pipes as well as a pad mount NG generator/evaporator. Course withe gas fire it would pick us some outdoor air heat even with the O/D temp well below freezing....

the basic premise was Domestic Heat peak requirement is about 3 to 4 times the cooling; and an absorber can both yield heat for hot water or? during the summer and cool the house. Called the GAX development project.....Licensing of certain portions to Carrier in early 1990's

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev28_2/text/gas.htm

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[717_dealler]

hi all membs., dear fe02farms ,sterl ,thanks a lot.
did any one have any picture or photo explaine the internal components in pakage unit of Robur machine .
i saw a skiches & some flash movie show how it works , but i need to see it more clear on here natcure . :cool: