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Peter_1
30-12-2003, 08:37 PM
Like I mentioned in another thread, here I go.

A Belgium technician earns +/- 14 €/hour, the very well paid 16 €/hour.
He may work max 38 hrs/ week.
If he has to work more, the first 2 hours have the same wage, the following 2 muuts be payed at 150 %, the then following at 200%.
Sunday and Saturday afternoon is 200%.

From that wage, the worker receives net in his hands +/- 55% to 60 %.
The deduction of that wage serves fro a pre-payment of his annual taxes, obliged insurances and the later retirement.

At the end of the year, a technician receives +/- 1.250 € as a bonus. During the holidays (22 days/year in summer) he/she don’t works but receives his holiday pay of +/- twice the monthly net payment (+/- 2.250 €)
So the net year payment for a technician will be +/- 18000 € to 19000 € . For this amount, everything is already paid (insurances, taxes, medication..).

The company credits 35 €/hour + transport costs.

What if an employee becomes sick in Belgium? I think we have one of the best social systems in the whole world.
If he/she becomes sick and he needs a doctor for only minor sickness (a flu or a common cold), he only has to pay +/-5 to 10 €. Medication is almost free (you pay max 5% of the medication value or even nothing)
If the disease is worser like an accident, operation, your wife will have a baby (not a disease I suppose), then you have to pay max 400 €, whatever they have to do with you.
Even revalidation or medication afterwards is all included.
Kids not older then 16 years even have t pay 0 €, even for the dentist.
This is also valid for the self-employed refr. Techs if they are insured. Very cheap, I pay 150 €/year for this.
Even if you never had worked in your life, you still have the same rights.

What if an employee becomes unemployed? The first year, he still receives +/-90% of his last wage. Thereafter, this amount is lowered to +/- 900 € if you live alone and can go till 1.400 € or more if you have kids and your wife has no income.
This is not valid for self-employed techs. If you become unemployed, it’s a pity unless you where insured (I’m insured for an amount 30 €/day and this cost me +/- 1.250 €/year)

Once you become retired, officially at 65 years, often at 60 years you receive your retirement pay. This is +/- 1.250 to 1.500 €. Those who did military service or any other government job (teachers, customs, polices, tax employees …) receive as there monthly pension the same amount as they had when they stopped working.
A self-employed tech who retires gets +/- 400 € retirement pay (!) So you need to save for you old days while working. I have a combined insurance if I become unemployed for whatever reason this may be and for my retirement.

For each kid you have, you receive a monthly amount (my dictionary translates this as a family allowance) The more kids you have and the older they become, the more the amount raises/kid and the older they become. For example when they are born : 1st kid = 100 €, 2 nd kid = 125 € and 3th kid = 150 €. If one of the kids is handicapped, the amounts doubles.

If you have a house and you have to pay a loan, then the interests are deductible from your gross wage. You also must take a life insurance, if one dies, the loan is paid immediately by the insurance company .

What we also have in our business is an insurance for lawyers. If we need one, the insurance pays him/her. This cost +/- 600 €/year. The max amount the lawyer the insurance pays is +/- 60000 €

Car insurance all in: +/-1700 € (also your own losses) or +/- 400 € if you only take an insurance where they pay the losses for the other side.

Some prices here: a bread:1.55 €, a bottle cola (1,5 l): 1,25 €, a glass of beer; 1,7 €, one liter fuel :1,1 €, R404a, R407 +/- 9,5 €, a hermetic unit of 2 HP/R404a – FH4525ZHR (Unithι Hermιtique/France): 612 €, a Copeland compressor DLHA-50 X: 1350 €, D8SK-700X : 6506 €,

rbartlett
30-12-2003, 10:01 PM
wow that's some post but i will put in some stuff

a guy will get £10 per hr -up to £15 for london. 40 hr basic then 1/2 2x on sunday (various companies have their own way of this -some pay all travel time at 1 1/2 for example)

tax is at 22% up to £29990 anything earned over is taxed at 40%

most good -apart from things like childrens clothes and some foods- are taxed at 17.5%

if employed -dental is subsidised.
as are doctorsvisits both at his practice and at home (medications are charged a small fee)

hospital visits/treatment are free apart from the odd thing like if you have a car accident the ambalance is charged for but if you fall over at home it's free

if unemployed all is free

unemployment is paid at a fixed rate but is means tested and now you get three 'jobs' and if you refuse them the money is stopped..(this is a very complicated area for here:-/

more to follow..

cheers

richard

Abe
30-12-2003, 10:45 PM
A great effort by Peter_1. Richard, you did good to put the UK info.
I think the Belgium system seems very very good, and Belgians are lucky
Ill see if I can post a beefier version of the UK system soon

Peter_1
08-01-2004, 11:26 AM
It seems that everybody takes his wintersleep for the moment.

I forgot to say that you are obligated to go to school from 6 year till 18 year. School is free, you only have to pay your books (+/- 100 €/year) it's actually more renting them.

If you continue then to higher education, then you have to pay from 500 € to 2500 € (depending on your income) and the additional costs for the books.

There will come very soon a new law where all those who are unemployed for years (who actually refuse to work for all kind of so called 'legal' reasons) will be investigated and banned from the social security system if needed.

Because there is almost no interest anymore for professions like dentist, vet's , from next year on, you can start these courses without any entrance exams.

In some other cases with the most technical professions (refrigeration, building, electricity...), when you follow higher education (from 18 years on), the student receives +/- 800 € at the end of the courses.

In Belgium, there is almost no interest anymore for the refrigeration. I know for the moment 3 schools which have stopped education due to shortage of students. Ostend technical school hear nearby has 3 students.
Bruges hear nearby, will stop next year.

I sat each year in the jury for the Refrigeration Bachelors and we always had +/- 30 students. Last year 5!! This year 8 students started refrigeration. Will there be 4 at the end???

My opinion is that the youth isn't interested anymore in hard working especially not interested in technical jobs and they all wanna work behind there computer, start at 09 AM and stop around 5 PM, they won't work on Saturday and Sunday.....
This is in my opinion certainly the wrong attitude.

chemi-cool
08-01-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Peter_1
It seems that everybody takes his wintersleep for the moment.

hey peter,

oh. i wish you were right.

there are tons of work now, as the summer will start in three months, a lot of work is done now, mainly prepering large AC systems, water cillers. and from some un known reason, also domestic split air- conditioners dont slow.

just yesterday in a terrible sand storm, I was installing a cooling unit for eggs cold storage and have to stop in the middle... could not see for more ten 5 meters!!

so if you get spoild up with a bottle of beer in front of the fire place, think of those who dont!

chemi

rbartlett
08-01-2004, 06:52 PM
In Belgium, there is almost no interest anymore for the refrigeration. I know for the moment 3 schools which have stopped education due to shortage of students. Ostend technical school hear nearby has 3 students.
Bruges hear nearby, will stop next year.

I sat each year in the jury for the Refrigeration Bachelors and we always had +/- 30 students. Last year 5!! This year 8 students started refrigeration. Will there be 4 at the end???

My opinion is that the youth isn't interested anymore in hard working especially not interested in technical jobs and they all wanna work behind there computer, start at 09 AM and stop around 5 PM, they won't work on Saturday and Sunday.....
This is in my opinion certainly the wrong attitude. [/B][/QUOTE]



sorry peter i can't agree..a few years ago the g.ment run a thing called W.I.S.E (women in science and industry) trying to get more women interested..why? why the bloody hell should a woman put herself through all that training overtime hassle cold hot crawling around stupid dark damp places when for the same money she can work 9-5 in a nice clean office??

no it's not the wrong attitude of youngsters it's the wrong attitude of us 'old ones' who have allowed a presenter to get 250,000 for a bit of chatting whilst we struggle to get 30k

my daughters would get a real truth about our industry (long hours, unsocial times, poor rewards, high divorce rate etc etc

and hopefully that would put her off the silly idea..

cheers

richard

Abe
08-01-2004, 11:28 PM
Winter is a bad time for me, I admit. Like a cold blooded creature my strength is only rejuvenated after a period of soaking up some sun......
But what can I say about the UK.......ermmmm

Ok........We have a shortage here of.......
Doctors
Plumbers
Good Fridge Guys
Builders, bricklayers, sparkies.....
You name it.......Were short!!

Why on earth????

I think.........The youngsters are simply not intrested!! Peter_1 hit the nail on the head......All they want is glamour, glitz and technology......PC's

I get sick of hearing teens saying they going to study IT at college and at UNI

As Richard points out as well...........Would you want your son / daughter working in the fridge industry......for a lousy 30K a year???

I dont want mine..........Better to be a plumber and earn 70K a year

Its also the nature of this industry.........No structured training to speak of......No viable representative body, no cohesion, no professionalism, body or standards, no marks , logo's

Whats their to entice anyone into the industry?? Why should they?? Whats so appealing.

Im throwing questions here......prob many of the poses I put are unfair and critical, Im sure there are many members of our industry who have done sterling work

But we DO have a problem of sorts that needs a think tank to brainstorm .

Why cant we have a University Degree solely for Refrigeration? We have a degree course right here in Leicester for Football!!!

The industry needs defining, uplifting.....an image
Right now we are bubbling along.......aimlessly

Latte
09-01-2004, 02:13 AM
I wish i could say now is a slack time, since christmas i havn't stopped it's almost like summer again. Usually this time of year is when all the maintainence jobs get done, cleaning out a/c condenders, plant maintainences ect to try and cut down calls in summer but i don't even seem to get any of these done at the moment.
Carrying on from Aiyub, why would anyone want to go into this job. Summer is normally the time you want to spend with you're family out in the sun or up the pub. Where are refrigeration engineers ??? Working 15 hour days 6/7 days a week trying to cover all the breakdowns.
With regards to hourly rates i don't think that purely judgeing a job on its HR doesn't tell you a lot. There are so many other things to take into account. Overtime at weekends, i only get time and a half at weekends (Sat & Sun) but you have to take into account other things. Private Milage in Van, Company pension, Sick Pay, Private calls on mobile, Paying of travel time all of which can influence how good you're job is.
At the end of the day, most of us are in this industry not for the money but like doctors, nurses, teachers who also get a raw deal we do it because we enjoy it. Yes i swear when i don't see my family during the summer but thats the job i chose to do

Regards

Raymond

sighman
09-01-2004, 12:35 PM
Hi,

As someone who has just decided to become a fridge/ac engineer I would like to share something with you.

I was a Computer repair technician, but in 2 years was made redundant 3 times - everyone and his dog is doing computers the market for IT is very unstable, most degree students in IT end up in what would have been school leaver jobs.

My brother-in-law has a degree in IT and the company he works for has made a lot of people redundant

Thats why I changed tack and went for a trade - fridge and AC will always be indemand - if only to keep all those PC's cool!

At school we were never encouraged to look at "trade" type jobs like plumbing/electrical etc it was all aimed at office-type jobs.

My view is that as the enviroment changes and places like the UK get hotter (this summer saw the hottest temps on record) the demand for AC will increase dramatically especially as it is very rare to find AC installed in a house, unlike other countries.

There are coming into place things like skillcards etc that will rasie the standard.

What doesn't help the industry are articles like this one :

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2003/story/0%2C13394%2C1022094%2C00.html

Also course content can be a bit bizarre, for example I am in Year one of NVQ level II and we have to complete workbooks on how to read an invoice, use the telephone etc......these things are increadibly boring and pathetic

Most of the younger people on the course can't see the relevence of the workbooks and also a lot of the theory, such as gas laws, ohms laws etc

I agree that something needs to be done - but as to what I don't know!

rbartlett
09-01-2004, 01:44 PM
rb-i will interject with my thoughts.. sorry if it's not easily readable but as you know i'm useles at this....


As someone who has just decided to become a fridge/ac engineer I would like to share something with you.
I was a Computer repair technician, but in 2 years was made redundant 3 times - everyone and his dog is doing computers the market for IT is very unstable, most degree students in IT end up in what would have been school leaver jobs.
My brother-in-law has a degree in IT and the company he works for has made a lot of people redundant


rb-the whole world has had a slump in i.t demand..this doesn't mean it will stay low-nor have another boom..


Thats why I changed tack and went for a trade - fridge and AC will always be indemand - if only to keep all those PC's cool!



rb-there are a lot of changes in technology
try-
http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=7145

http://www.borealis.com

if these things work you'll be in another over staffed trade...


At school we were never encouraged to look at "trade" type jobs like plumbing/electrical etc it was all aimed at office-type jobs.
My view is that as the enviroment changes and places like the UK get hotter (this summer saw the hottest temps on record) the demand for AC will increase dramatically especially as it is very rare to find AC installed in a house, unlike other countries.


rb-the whole global warming is not certain and indeed rather doubtful (i'm trying to be diplomatic here)

http://www.john-daly.com

my last g.f's dad is a research scientist

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1899044116/onthewebcom-21/026-1590905-7085247

read the review at the bottom....

(just one of many many books he's written )

he told me the back in the late 80's that the earth would warm up till about 2010 then start to cool..so far so good..



There are coming into place things like skillcards etc that will rasie the standard.


rb-nope skillcards are a joke..they don't do anything for any industry let alone ours..


What doesn't help the industry are articles like this one :

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels2003/story/0%2C13394%2C1022094%2C00.html


rb-i agree with this..;-)



Also course content can be a bit bizarre, for example I am in Year one of NVQ level II and we have to complete workbooks on how to read an invoice, use the telephone etc......these things are increadibly boring and pathetic


rb-of course till you need them...


Most of the younger people on the course can't see the relevence of the workbooks and also a lot of the theory, such as gas laws, ohms laws etc



rb-no nor me....unless you want to be like marc or the prof :-)

however always coming back to 'first principles' does have it's good points...if you know 'how' then you will know 'why'



I agree that something needs to be done - but as to what I don't know! [/B][/QUOTE]



rb-maybe a strict course/training regime like south africa (if marc is to be believed) combined with a fierce 'corgi' registration.

combine that with a complete attitude change by society in general and we're almost there..;-)

cheers

richard

chemi-cool
09-01-2004, 02:30 PM
hi richard,

you sound a bit bitter. I can understand you, I belive we all started at the bottom and it took some time to move up.

me for example was a manager of a medium size steel works machine shop and one day I came home and my fridge broke down. I did not know how the hell this machine works and where to start looking for the problem. at that day in the late 70's I've dropped everything and went to study RAC and today looking back, I can say that it was the best decision I've ever made.

I have learned Physics and math and all the rest and discoverd this amazing world of RAC.

maybe I could have made more money in other fields but no other work give me so much pleasure.

I belive when you are self employd its a bit different but also a big responsibility.

patience and determination will take you to the highest peaks
in any profesion you will choose.

you only live once, make the most of it!!

chemi

DaBit
09-01-2004, 02:45 PM
Situation in The Netherlands is very similar than in Belgium.


Originally posted by Peter_1
My opinion is that the youth isn't interested anymore in hard working especially not interested in technical jobs and they all wanna work behind there computer, start at 09 AM and stop around 5 PM, they won't work on Saturday and Sunday.....
This is in my opinion certainly the wrong attitude. [/B]

That's my job (electronic design engineer; from IC's to complete devices), but I would love to spend some more time off the computer. But no job has it all, and so far I accept spending too much working hours behind the computer.

Except for the times; sometimes it's not so busy, and I am indeed working 9am-5pm. But when deadlines come near, it's 8am-8pm, or even night work. Including the weekends, if we have to. But then again, it is a technical job ;)

rbartlett
09-01-2004, 03:06 PM
bitter?

no not at all -just realistic..

i had a ministry of defence apprenticeship at Aldermaston

http://www.awe.co.uk/main_site/about_awe/who_we_are.htm

reconised as one of the best apprenticeship schemes in the UK

i then went back and re-trained in fridge/ac back in 82 so I'm no spring chicken to this game..

i became self employed in '87 till 2000 starting up a small a.c company in the west of england -very successful

however

i left the company/trade for personal reasons..i went back later s/e but due to those same 'personal reasons' got a job

i'm now 'back' and employed as the london manager for a medium sized hvac contractor

http://www.macwhirter.co.uk

i have seen many changes in our trade but being able to charge a decent rate isn't one of them..nor is society's attitude to us and 'oily rags' in general.

you may get recognition in Isreal but overhere conversation goes-

1 I'm a fridgeman
reply 'err what's that? '

2 I'm a fridgeman
reply 'not much call for that is there?'

3 I'm a fridgeman
reply 'ah nevermind, somethings' bound to turn up'

cheers

richard


this is not bitterness...just the truth (as i see it)

chemi-cool
09-01-2004, 03:39 PM
hi richard,

got the picture now.

well, I'm a "fridgeman" and I'm proud to be one and I realy dont care what other people are thinking or saying.

maybe you should start to orgenize the "fridgemen" under one organization. it will give you all more power??

chemi

Peter_1
09-01-2004, 10:13 PM
I feel a lot of emotions in this thread and in the thread started by Marc O Brien 'Junior tech'.

Aiyub wrote:
But "which" college includes proper and comprehensive practical, hands on refrigeration experience???Proper equipped workshops where the students disassemble kit, put it together, and covering all aspects of refrigeration and air conditioning.
How do we get there??? I say.......a theory based course is not sufficient........You need a college that includes practicals as well. On leaving you can then in effect work self employed if need be.

Well, I have the same feeling: school is far behind what the industry actually needs, not only in the cooling sector. There is not enough practical training. For example: one Refr school here nearby (Bruges) lets the students follow practical experience in a company for 2 x 1 day. The 1 st day, they only know where they can find the tools in the van. I refused after 3 years to accept anymore students.
And I know a lot so called refr technicians who learned the job but never did the theoretical part... also disappointing. For example: a service technician with almost 20 years experience calls me what orifice he needs to install in an evaporator (this in fact is already for me a not understandable question for someone with 20 years experience) I said "put in a 3". I saw him back later and he said 'well,... i hadn't a 3 but I had a 5 in my van. I put it in and turned the needle of the TEV some turns in. That's the same (???) Or he added another refrigerant in the system because the right one was in the workhouse. Or he didn't know that a Copeland had an oil filter in front of it. (He already visited 4 to 5 times the same client with oil pressure cut-out problems) He was convinced (and tried to convince me too) that this only was an oil drain plug. And I can go on.... But he was the foreman of the service technicians. Unbelievable.


Sighman wrote:
I doubt there could be a course where you could just walk out of it and set yourself up in business, the cost would be phenomenal on both the college course and buying all the equipment you would need...........


What we could use and should benefit the students - and I don't see this as a cheap labor - is young students who can join us for some months to learn the job on site. They have to go to several companies so that they learn in each company something. I really can see/feel after a couple of days if someone will make it.


Chemi wrote: "It seems that everybody takes his winter sleep for the moment, ..... but not for me"


I meant on this forum, more as a joke.
Also we have tons of work now, we even have to refuse now. We are almost complete till summer.


Rbartlett wrote:"why the bloody hell should a woman put herself through all that training overtime hassle cold hot crawling around stupid dark damp places when for the same money she can work 9-5 in a nice clean office??"


Agree completely.


Further: "no it's not the wrong attitude of youngsters it's the wrong attitude of us 'old ones' who have allowed a presenter to get 250,000 for a bit of chatting whilst we struggle to get 30k"


I should be happy if we could give our technicians 30 K. But the huge wages (<200.000 + free car + free mobile phone) like you mentioned, we receiving the bill right now. And it will even become faster and even harder in the very near future I think/feel. First we had the East Europeans countries who took all the blanket to them, now it is the far East who is spreading his arms wide open and saying' Come all over here, we will make it for you at a cost divided by 10 to 20. China is expanding enormous)
This can't hold any longer, IT is collapsing, and all the companies with to big wages are leaving (in Belgium anyway) to countries with much lower wages, other countries are attracting skilled people (we Belgium's can go to Norway for example and get there 1.000 m² ground for free to build a house, reduced taxes..., emigrating in Belgium has never been so big as last years....) Unemployment is now 13% and has to be payed by all those who still have a job!!

And I don't see it as a wrong attitude of us, it was something happening beyond our will.

I once had a problem with my computer (the power source had failed) I called an IT'er to fix the job because it was to busy. He charged me 75 €/hour. I was shocked and I will explain why. I asked the IT'er if he had a small problem with his domestic fridge and he may use my whole stock, equipment...should he he fix his fridge? No, not in 100 years. But I was able to repair my own PC. Who is then most experienced? I won't say I'm smarter but is this correct, that we charge 35 € and they 75 €? We have now someone who charges us 30 € and is really qualified.
Even a plumber who fixes only toilets, lay tubes charges more and for that kind of work you don't need that huge experience. I see in a post of Aiyub that in the UK they have the same problem: plumbers - with all respect for them - charges more then we do and you even don't have to follow difficult courses for that.


Aiyub wrote:"As Richard points out as well...........Would you want your son / daughter working in the fridge industry......for a lousy 30K a year??"


Agree completely. But I always told my technicians and my kids: "do a job that pleases you, where you go whistling to your work, and then look what you earn."
Same as rdocwra said: "At the end of the day, most of us are in this industry not for the money but like doctors, nurses, teachers who also get a raw deal we do it because we enjoy it."

A degree for refrigeration should be very good or an institute where they teach you only the practical side of the job. In the US, there is somewhere a private school for ammonia refrigeration. That is what we need in our countries]

Hey, what are we waiting for? :D

Peter_1
10-01-2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by chemi-cool
hi richard,

me for example was a manager of a medium size steel works machine shop and one day I came home and my fridge broke down. I did not know how the hell this machine works and where to start looking for the problem. at that day in the late 70's I've dropped everything and went to study RAC and today looking back, I can say that it was the best decision I've ever made.

I have learned Physics and math and all the rest and discovered this amazing world of RAC.

maybe I could have made more money in other fields but no other work give me so much pleasure.
I

Had almost the same history as you had Chemi.
at the age of 22, I was an all-round technician (mechanic, hydraulics, heating, steam, electricity..) in a stock quoted company (woven specialties www.schlegel.com )

On one day, they asked to look for a faulty chiller. I found out that when I bridged the LP (what the hell was an LP) that black thing inside was humming again. So I left it bridged because I fixed it. anyway, that's what i thought on that proud moment.
But after half an hour, they called me back because it still didn't cool. Searched again for a long time and finally decided to call a refr .technician. He came and fixed it in 10 minutes: a burned coil on an SV. I was so angry to myself that I hadn't found such a simple fault.

I took information and some weeks later, I followed evening classes Refr. for two years, twice a week.

I always wanted to understand what I was doing, not just do it because someone said it has to be done that way. I always wanted to know the why of something. If I understand it, then it's much easier to do anything.


I was two months in the US for my flying training on very simple multi-engines. One of the (very small) courses was electricity. The instructor we had had even to cheat on his papers to explain us when you connect two batteries together what happens then (was it in parallel or serial you become 24 V from 2 batteries..?)
He had learned everything in the past without understanding it.

Finally, we had our final check with a US examiner. He started questioning my friend Koen who has a master in electronics and automation (mainly PLC's) After 5 minutes, the questioning was already done because he overwhelmed the examiner with explanations he (examiner) even didn't understood.
I was next and he heard that I was the friend of Koen and he said :'I can't ask you both nothing because I noticed that you even could fix electrical problems on an airplane.'
He had heard of our flying instructor that we had rewired a limiter switch (which closed the contact of the 3 greens) and we also had rewired a loosen contact on the temperature probe of the exhaust.
He didn't understand that we were able to do this. That is the difference, he learned out of the books and could answer the pre-made questions. We could it also, but we could not only answer the question but cuold also explain the why and how and if and ....

What always makes is very satisfying in our job is the following: a client has a problem. He calls his friend with his so called experience, a friend of that friend even helps him, a tithe is coming to see and none of them can fix the problem. Then, finally they have call you and you fix it in 10 minutes. That are moments that I'm feeling really good. Or they had another refr. technician who already came 3 times for the same problem. They call you and you can pinpoint the problem in 10 minutes. encountered it 2 weeks ago.


A former client of us had installed a complete new shop 2 years ago. Because we don't do complete shops like butcheries, another company had installed tailor-made counters and furniture, ceilings, windows, floors, new coldrooms (3)... not especially my job except for the cooling part.

He called me this week for his fresh meat cold-room (3,8 x 2,1 x 2,4 m)which gave troubles for now almost 2 years.
The responsable there said me that they at least 15 times had called the first installer because the meat didn't conserved at all. When they lay fresh meat in it, especially minced meat, it became black. They had to cover everything with plastic foil. The floor was always wet and they always looked for water leaks and had rejoined all the seems.(???) They had a few gas leaks.

Till that moment, i had not seen the cold-room.
But I was almost certain that I could pinpoint the problem without even seeing it.
When I came in, I saw the evaporators, I was sure of it: over dimensioned. after recalculation, we only needed the half of the installed capacity. Correct capacity in fresh meat coldrooms is essential.
Compressor was on R404a, we changed it to R134a, removed an evaporator and the problems are gone. We even suggested to install humidity controlled heaters for fine tuning but the responsable butcher said it was perfect for him.

PS: is it coldroom, cold room or cold-room.

Abe
10-01-2004, 08:36 AM
Once again, a brilliant post by Peter_1.

The RAC industry has to be self supporting. By this I mean we blow our own trumpet and "if" we are really serious about uplifting the image and persona of this industry, then it is up to us to do this.

But, put it together, we are a body of souls who got into the industry either by chance or by intrigue or others who were infected by the bug. Apprenticeships or the like simply do not exist.

The intellectual capacity of RAC workers can be classed as upper secondary, non degree or academic. I refer to the majority here.

In the future I see the Manufacturers take a leading role in the recruitment of engineers specific to their needs and area of expertise.

A University Degree solely in Refrigeration and Air Conditioning is what is really required. This would include a compulsory year off working in industry with an allocated company. Could be Trane. or Star, or Williams, or Helkama, Derby......whatever.

Now, we have had postings from ex IT professionals, clever people , who are disillusioned with lack of prospects in the industry. Because the industry is a hap hazard in its make up. its like a lottery out there.

Next question,

Who will fund the University course????

I put the onus squarely on the Manufacturers, the likes of LG, and other manufacturers can pool resources together so a course can be set up. If around 150 graduates can come out of it every year, what a boon for the industry, and what an image booster.

Sighman. Refrigeration is the EASIEST business to set up working Self Employed. You can work from home, buy spares as you need them, all you need is a small van, wholesalers will even deliver goods to site. Tools......what you need.......gauges , say........£1000.00

Your bank will only be too happy to offer you a loan of say £2000.00. Check with your local Business Link, Chamber of Commerce....Grants are available......all sorts, especially if youre young

Where there is a will there is a way.

Print cards and labels./. Walk the streets.........Giuve cards to shops, restaurants, who does not own a fridge.....Tell me?????

Anyway.....Times up.......my builder arrives soon. Im laying a new floor

See.....We fridge blokes are so talented!!!

chemi-cool
10-01-2004, 01:16 PM
I belive we are in some kind of changes. the industrial world will not survive without skilled "fridgemen" like most of us here.
from you people write here, the picture is very gloomy.
something has to be done but I do not think it will come from the tech. level but from the people who need our services.
they oun the big money and time and they will not tolerate bad service.

I should also thank all the cowboys which destroy our industry with cheap prices and low quality work.

with globalization the chages will come to the idustry tech. lever.

great deal of my work is to bring back to life machines that was serviced by so called "engineers" who have asquired thier knowlege from "playboy magazine".

one of them hve showed me once the equilizeser port on a TEV and said that this is where he adds refrigerant from!?!?!?

so its pretty abvious that changes must come and I just hope I'll still be working to see it.

Aiyub, you have mentioned how talanted we are....just finnished changing all the light system in the livingroom (wife's orders),
she was right, it looks better now next weekend will have to do the ceiling.

chemi

Peter_1
11-01-2004, 11:15 AM
Pax***** added a thread some time ago 'Made my day" which describes the best why I love RAC and what feelings it give when you can fix something others couldn't.

Peter_1
13-01-2004, 09:35 AM
Found the Ammonia school

http://garpltc.com/default.htm

DaBit
13-01-2004, 10:37 AM
What we could use and should benefit the students - and I don't see this as a cheap labor - is young students who can join us for some months to learn the job on site. They have to go to several companies so that they learn in each company something. I really can see/feel after a couple of days if someone will make it.

I'm an outsider. My sole experience with refrigeration are my own systems. I'm not trained professionally, but by exercise, small steps at a time, and you guys on the forums. Not that much really.

But being the inexperienced rookie as I am, I see A/C guys coming by, seeing them doing their job, and knowing they will be back within a week because what they do just isn't correct. The 'equaliser port for adding refrigerant' kind of guys.

And even worse: it's the majority of the refrigeration techs I meet. A goddamn shame, if you ask me.

Now, what would happen if I joined them to learn the job on site?

Exactly....

Peter_1
13-01-2004, 10:48 AM
Dabit,

The difference with you is - I think - that you always had the will to learn it right, not just by doing it that it works half. And also, that you are not ashamed to ask for advise and that you realise that you can't know everything.

This is a certain attitude that I see less and less these days with again... the younger peoples: 'If it's good for me, well...then it should be also good for all the others.' I feel more and more an egocentric attitude. (It's because I'm becoming old says my kids, but I don't think so)

The only correct attitude should always be - that's my vision - that you try always, no matter what you do, to do it the best as possible, having a high level of self-critic.

FreezerGeezer
13-01-2004, 12:28 PM
Peter, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here, but sometimes it's not the tech's fault. Companies these days just aren't interested in training people properly, in a structured way. (Except for Marc and a couple of others, of course!) :mad:
Added to that, techs are often under enormous pressure to do the job fast, and get to the next one. Even when you want to do the job right, even if you know you haven't really fixed the damn thing properly, you're just not allowed the time to do it properly.
:mad::mad::mad:

DaBit
13-01-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Peter_1
And also, that you are not ashamed to ask for advise and that you realise that you can't know everything.

Yes, indeed. But if I had to go on hands-on training with engineers who install too large orifices and turn up the superheat to make things work, and they give an acceptable answer about the reason, then I would not know that I am doing things wrong....

The result: I would be just another 'bad' engineer.

And that is the problem with hands-on training, unless it is administered well.

Lc_shi
19-01-2005, 06:30 AM
Belgium is very good place, so i decide to go there_;).Peter help me?
There will be a international exhibition of HVACR in Beijing ,April 12~14. is there anybody of this forum come to?

Abe
19-01-2005, 08:15 AM
Give us more details on the exhibition Ic Shi.......

Lc_shi
19-01-2005, 09:34 AM
http://www.cr-expo.com/En/Default.asp

chemi-cool
19-01-2005, 06:50 PM
Only if I get free green tea and fortune cookies :D


Chemi :)

Servicefrigo
28-01-2005, 08:01 AM
Y read a lot of payments modells,but the question is how much at the end of the year you have in your pocket.?can you get your own house in a few years,? If your wife does*t work & you have 2 kids at school .how many years you need?

Regards

Peter_1
28-01-2005, 08:34 AM
Get your own house after some years would be great but that's nowhere like this.
We have to take a loan for this (mortgage rate historically low here now for the moement: 4,5%) for at least 25 years. It becomes very difficult if not both are working.
Ground prices to build here are now in the region of 100 to 125 Euro/m², so very high. You then have to strat to build your houses with skilled workers which costs at least 30 to 35 Euro/hour.

I hear that in certain areas in the UK some have to take a loan for 2 generations , let's say 50 years.
So if you parents die, you got the house from them with the not fully payed loan. Is this true anyway.

But the cost for food, electricity, fuel, taxes, insurances, health insurances, retirement funds (pension?? right word??) is also important We have 21% taxes here so very high.

But you're right, it's what remains in the pocket at the end of the year that counts.

chemi-cool
28-01-2005, 02:33 PM
Hi Peter,

So much for happy European community :D

Over here, if you want to have your own farm, living off tourism, Dairy farm, agriculture or wine manufacturer, you will get from the government an area of 1000 acres, for free, you will choose the place with the local Counsellor.

The catch, only apply in the south of country - desert.

But still, the waiting list is ten years now.

Chemi :)

shogun7
28-01-2005, 10:38 PM
Well there's always the new world, but hurry, because time is short as illigal immigration is going to inhabit all land not occupied :cool:

Peter_1
28-01-2005, 11:00 PM
The new world you said?
And where is that?


Something else without the intention to start a discussion:

Ever heard of Loretta Napoleoni?
She wrote a book "Modern Jihad, Tracing the dollars behind the Terror Networks"
http://www.modernjihad.com/index_home.html
She's invited in March in Madrid for a top meeting with Garbatsjov, Clinton and even Condoleeza Rice, to explain her very detailed and precise theory about the terror.
Her theory behind the attack of Afghanistan will also be discussed.
She agrees the theory of publicist Gore Vidal

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/EnemyWithin.html

Abe
29-01-2005, 12:01 AM
Well there's always the new world, but hurry, because time is short as illigal immigration is going to inhabit all land not occupied :cool:

Sorry...........I meant to Quote............not Edit...........Grrrr

What I was trying to say is this Shogun..........

I wonder what a First Nations Native American would think of your settlement as..........????

I guess very legit

Abe
29-01-2005, 01:05 AM
But the cost for food, electricity, fuel, taxes, insurances, health insurances, retirement funds (pension?? right word??) is also important We have 21% taxes here so very high.
.

And to think Ic Shi wants to come live in Belgium !!! :)
Stay put in China, my " old china!! "
china is the new First World!!!

Pss: my old china is only a freindly term for freind........ ;)

frank
30-01-2005, 11:00 PM
HI chemi


Dairy farm, agriculture or wine manufacturer,

Is Israel a wine producing country? Can't say that I've seen any over here - but maybe I don't look in the right places :)

chemi-cool
31-01-2005, 07:20 PM
Hi Frank,

Yes we are.

thThe only wine I drink is local. High quality wine.

Here is whre you can get some information, I hope your browser support it.

http://www.israelwines.co.il/ArticlesEng/Article.asp?ArticleID=719&CategoryID=86

Chemi :)

frank
31-01-2005, 09:37 PM
Hi Chemi

A good link - thanks.

I'll have to have a look and see if I can find some in the UK :)

Abe
01-02-2005, 12:10 AM
Hi Chemi

A good link - thanks.

I'll have to have a look and see if I can find some in the UK :)

Seek and thou shall find.
( somewhere it says in the good book)

I was thinking Chem, surely the nectar from your end of the woods, or shall I say sand........... :D must be blessed as well !!! apart from tasting just blooming fantastic!!!!
:) :)

shogun7
01-02-2005, 03:14 AM
And to think Ic Shi wants to come live in Belgium !!! :)
Stay put in China, my " old china!! "
china is the new First World!!!

Pss: my old china is only a freindly term for freind........ ;)
Aiyub it's not freind........ It's friend :rolleyes: