Vaillant Air Conditioning [Archive] - Refrigeration-Engineer.com forums

Vaillant Jay

26-07-2008, 10:28 AM

Hi All,
Just heard about this thread.
Sorry took a while to answer your questions.
I am the Technical Manager for Vaillant.
The units are made by 3 Chinese manufacturers, Chigo (Which Vaillant own 5% of), Haier and Midea.
All of which are controlled by our own quality assurance people in Germany and Spain.
They are sold country wide by United Refrigeration, Ryan Air Conditioning Spares (Manchester) and ACS NW (Liverpool).
Full service, installation and user manuals are available both electronic and hard copy.
Because Vaillant are a relatively new comer to the UK we place ourselves around the LG area.
Our units are better than the old brands as we are all R410a now and later in the year all cassettes will be inverter.
We also have fixed speed wall mounts on the ECA.
The technical back up is superb (I maybe a little bias on this one).
To my knowledge we have no faults in the field.
There are not many manufacturers who can say that.
My mobile is permanantly on as I know what is like being an engineer requiring assistance on the weekend and late at night.
I think I have answered all of the above questions but please feel free to drop me a line.
Good to get feed back.

deanH

26-07-2008, 01:07 PM

Do they come with a parts and labour gaurantee like the boilers do? (last time i checked the boilers come with a 2 year parts and labour gaurantee)

Vaillant Jay

26-07-2008, 02:54 PM

Yes they do Dean.
However unlike the other manufacturers we actually do all the warranty work ourselves leaving the installers to work on other projects.:D

Vaillant Jay

26-07-2008, 05:51 PM

:confused:Very strange comments Magic.
As with all manufacturers whether it be from Japan,China,Italy or Germany. The UK market is a very established place.

eggs

26-07-2008, 07:11 PM

Yes they do Dean.
However unlike the other manufacturers we actually do all the warranty work ourselves leaving the installers to work on other projects.:D

TELL ME MORE:confused: IS THIS TRUE ? sorry about the capitals but i am shouting. Is this a UK first?

Eggs

nevgee

26-07-2008, 08:42 PM

You'll also find that Vaillant has apparenty been training up its combi boiler / plumber guys to do the installs, that's why they are offering the warranty repair. Quite simply they wouldn't expect their boiler / plumbers guys to do this as they don't have that expertice.

There is and has been for some time a belief the domestic market in the UK is going to take off ....wooosh! :p But I've been watching this baby for 20 yrs now and there isn't any sign of it yet.:D
However, If you're market place is becoming saturated with other boiler products and you have the facility to mass produce white goods then surely making something else, like a/c kit is easy, problem is who will put it in and where .... well they'll use the existing trades like plumbers.

Air con in this country is likely to go down the route that central heating went, once it was specialised now any monkey can fit it.
Split ac systems have always been easy to instal, just that the other trades are now realising this, so if the manufacturers starts to take up the commissioning and warranty then they only need monkeys to do the instals :(

I was so happy to see the "f" gas regs come along as it will certainly hold off a lot of plumbers and builders from doing our work.

Maybe it's time to diversify ... ?

Karl Hofmann

26-07-2008, 10:57 PM

The question is do you really want to do domestic installs??

Mini splits may not be technically challenging but the customer won't accept pipes being visible in their livingroom.. any pumps must be silent... they don't want to see a big box hanging on the wall and you cant leave a condenser where little Tiffany can poke sticks in.. then there is the issue of dirty boots and beige carpets.. avoiding damage to the mong vase, stepping down from your steps and treading on the dog and the whinging about you turning off the power in the middle of Tricia....You can't swear, smoke, and must be friendly and polite at all times..

Any holes or damage must be made good and anything visible must be neat and tidy, dust must be vacuumed up, dirty marks must be wiped down... How many industrial ac guys will put up with all that?

Next to the correct installation of a heating system, a mini split is a dream in terms of regulations...

Brian_UK

26-07-2008, 11:09 PM

OK Karl, hit a nerve have we :D;);)

Karl Hofmann

27-07-2008, 12:55 AM

OK Karl, hit a nerve have we :D;);)

:p:p:pBoo Har Sucks:p:p:p

My point was most refrigeration and aircon guys wouldn't even want to fit a split to a private house if they knew what a pain in the butt home owners are.. The trick to working in someones home is to offer the full package which means being an aircon guy, plumber, sparks, plasterer, painter and house maid... There are plenty of site plumbers who are used to fitting heating in new builds but when asked to fit heating to an existing home, just couldn't cut it when it comes to refitting flooring, relaying carpets, bricking old flue holes.... It is a totally different type of work.

I almost accepted an offer to subcontract for a company a few months ago until I met their professional engineers at a training course.... They were just too good for me.;)

nevgee

27-07-2008, 01:33 AM

Karl Hofmann

27-07-2008, 01:58 AM

I can see your point but, why is it a problem to be tidy?

I accept your arguement that in domsetic situations you need to be more careful of the fittings etc ...whereas in an office they're not too bothered about potential damage risk.
However, what's so hard about making an effort to give the customer the final finishing touch ..better to be remembered for the quality finish than the mess?

I can hear it now "bloody tradesmen never tidy up ... those Polish guys were neat":D

No problem at all.. I always make sure that I always leave the place spotless ... This is the point. There are plenty of guys who bemoan the installation of minisplits by guys who are not fully time served refrigeration or aircon engineers.. but my question that I ask is, would those same guys be content with dealing with home owners?

Home installations are the kind of job that you would expect a tradesman to do for a tradesmans rate, not an engineer.. they are simple nut on bolt jobs and given a few specialist tools and instruction, is the kind of job that most guys could do... Sadly there is still a special breed of numpty who can still muck it up

I believe that for every kind of air conditioning job, there is a particular kind of engineer, mainly because they have decided to specialise in that particular job. There are guys who can work on large constructions with their eyes shut who would be lost on a car. Similarly I have referred some larger jobs to those who have more ability in that particular field.

In domestics, there is less emphasis on technical work and more on aesthetics.. making good, hiding pipes, triming round units, cutting and making good window ledges and skirting can take just as long as installation and testing

Prince Vaillant

27-07-2008, 11:21 AM

multisync

27-07-2008, 11:55 AM

Why is there always this attitude to other tradesmen fitting split ac systems, surely if the guys are there installing boiler systems or solar systems or whatever, they should be more than capable of fitting the AC. How many split bashers do you know who can fit boilers?

Yes why on earth should tradesmen worry that others might want to steal their livelihood?

Boiler fitting is the same -monkey see monkey do, the only thing they did right was to get it regulated by Corgi (soon to be replaced..)

I like the idea of the manufacturer doing warranty work..it might open their eyes to the standard of fit..

Of course if Vaillant AC 'take off' they won't be able to cope, then the will have to sub it out, then they will just answer the phone..

Multisync
London

The Viking

27-07-2008, 11:57 AM

Why is there always this attitude to other tradesmen fitting split ac systems, surely if the guys are there installing boiler systems or solar systems or whatever, they should be more than capable of fitting the AC. How many split bashers do you know who can fit boilers?

No.
But that is the point, isn't it...

The problem is that pulling the pipes and connecting the cables can be done by anyone. But what happens next?

-Will the system be correctly commissioned, with pressure test and deep, standing, vacuum?
-When things go tits up, who will sort it out and who will have to pay?
-What will happen to the reputation of our industry?

I can understand that in order for a "new" importer of Chinese units, you will have to look at alternative routes of delivery to the endusers, as us "established" engineers tend to stick with the old established brands.
We all takes shortcuts from time to time BUT it is important that we recognise when we take those shortcuts and not in our minds think that they are the main (best?) route.

Good luck.
:cool:

Prince Vaillant

27-07-2008, 01:48 PM

So are you telling me that refrigeration engineers don't do plumbing? I only asked why our industry is so pig headed when it comes to "other" trades diversifying. It is probably harder to qualify to be an electrician or plumber than it is to become an AC engineer.
Anyway wasn't this topic about any questions on Vaillant air conditioning?

eggs

27-07-2008, 05:57 PM

Anyway wasn't this topic about any questions on Vaillant air conditioning?

It was, but nobody answered my question. Hope your tech help line is better.
Oooops i forgot, we don't need tech help do we? you do it. Or did i read it wrong?

i'll stick with Tosh for now

Eggs

The Viking

27-07-2008, 07:02 PM

It was, but nobody answered my question. Hope your tech help line is better.
Oooops i forgot, we don't need tech help do we? you do it. Or did i read it wrong?

Eggs

Eggs, is this the question you are referring to:

TELL ME MORE:confused: IS THIS TRUE ? sorry about the capitals but i am shouting. Is this a UK first?

Eggs

In which case they have answered it.
One of Vaillant's technicians will attend site and sort all problems out (during the warranty period one assumes).

Prince,
The thread are still about your company's products and philosophies...
As it looks from the replies you and your colleague has posted in this thread (on a forum for professional A/C and refrigeration engineers, one might add) the company you are representing seems to think that "our" trade is unnecessary.
As we are highly trained professionals, we will get upset when someone thinks that it is OK to cut us out.
Most of us will also have seen the results of fitters trying to do our job.

Prince and Jay,

All the best in pushing your units. (But you might get better responses on a Boiler/Plumbing/Fitters board)

Remember, don't start discussions if you don't want to have a discussion where views other than your own creeps up...

Peace an love everybody.
:cool:

sinewave

27-07-2008, 07:23 PM

Class Mr Viking Sir! :D

nevgee

27-07-2008, 07:49 PM

... It is probably harder to qualify to be an electrician or plumber than it is to become an AC engineer....

?

Lets get something straight here ..... We talk about Electricians, Plumbers, Air conditioning "engineers" . I'm not happy calling an Air con instal guy an engineer unless he his one in which case he'll know his stuff, Psychrometry, Laws of thermo dynamics, Fan laws, principles of the refrigeration cycle, Thermodynamics of buildings, electrical know how and principles of fluid engineering such as "plumbing" etc.

Electricians, be they an installing electrician or a maintenance electrician, seems "electrician" is a catch all name but really hides their incompetence when it comes to diversity, and the same applies to Mr. Plumber, aren't so overly educated (there are exceptions of course) and there is nothing difficult about their job as a whole. So, my view is these two trades are so wholy over rated when it comes to their technical ability it often makes me laugh.

Of all the refrigeration and Air con guys I know I'll bet my last months wages they have all at some time had to help the sparky or the Plumber out because there was a lack of technical knowhow. You will find hard push to come across an Electrician or Plumber who could multi task like an Air Con Engineer.

Exactly as you say, we can do their job in many cases but they don't have the technical knowledge to do ours.

Sparkies have to do the IEE regs ..so what I've got 16th edition piece of p*ss.

One exception ...industrial maintenance electricians are good at having alround knowlwedge.

I think I'm getting to over worked on this issue ... Electricians usually make very good refrigeration /Air con engineers. Plumbers? don't really know what they're good for ..charging too much perhaps.

Prince Vaillant

27-07-2008, 07:59 PM

nevgee

27-07-2008, 08:07 PM

I am by no means afraid of any critisism if i was i would not have started this thread now would i?
I will say one more thing though, yes there are horses for courses, but is it not called Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning in the rest of the world?
Now refrigeration is a totally different kettle of fish, i would in no way whatsoever insult a refrigeration engineer by calling them an air conditioning engineer! LOL
Anyway by the looks of things at least the summer is finally here eh!

Well you've just insulted us all then .... :(:mad:
It used to be one would progress from Refrigeration to air con because the air con was a speciality as it involves more technical issues and a greater engineering diversity than refrigeration, however today air con generally is thought to mean splits which aren't really very technical in their application.
...so, I would be carefull when you make such statements as you show your ingnorance and that could be embarrasing for you. :eek:
As we now know.:rolleyes:
ya boo:cool:

Karl Hofmann

27-07-2008, 11:36 PM

Lets get something straight here ..... We talk about Electricians, Plumbers, Air conditioning "engineers" . I'm not happy calling an Air con instal guy an engineer unless he his one in which case he'll know his stuff, Psychrometry, Laws of thermo dynamics, Fan laws, principles of the refrigeration cycle, Thermodynamics of buildings, electrical know how and principles of fluid engineering such as "plumbing" etc.

Sparkies have to do the IEE regs ..so what I've got 16th edition piece of p*ss.

All of which is very important when considering the install of a 2.5KW minisplit to Mrs Jones bedroom ;)

As for your 16th... you're out of date :p

I wish that I could pigeonhole myself as easily as you.. Sometimes I'm a Sparks, sometimes I'm a gas fitter, other days I'm an aircon engineer.. fancy a drive out?, I'm a Truck driver, gimme a work shop and I'm a pattern maker... then I'll make the tooling and the reinforced plastics engineer will produce you as many plastic mouldings as you wish...Is there any point to this? Not really but I find you elitist attitude quite amusing but a little sad... Get a life, man :cool:

nevgee

28-07-2008, 01:57 AM

I wish that I could pigeonhole myself as easily as you.. Sometimes I'm a Sparks, sometimes I'm a gas fitter, other days I'm an aircon engineer.. fancy a drive out?, I'm a Truck driver, gimme a work shop and I'm a pattern maker... then I'll make the tooling and the reinforced plastics engineer will produce you as many plastic mouldings as you wish...Is there any point to this? Not really but I find you elitist attitude quite amusing but a little sad... Get a life, man :cool:

Sorry Karl I wasn't trying to be elitist but more to defend the Ac professional... perhaps you lost the thread.:cool:
I know 17th edition current but not everyone has yet had the chance to get up to speed with it ...just like "f" gas requirement .. you might be C&G 28** compliant but you haven't got the current qualification (f Gas)...so in that respect you're out of date also.;)
As I said, I wasn't trying to do anything other than defend our position, there was no intention of having a dig at you .. I was responding to "Prince Vaillant" who seems to think that all of you "AC Engineers" can be outdone by a 5 day training exercise given to Plumbers who then are competent enough to do your job!
Do you believe this can be so? Are you agreeing to this view? Are you admitting your job ( I assume you're an ac engineer) is so easy that a 5 day course can convert a plumber to an AC Engineer? I really don't think you do, some how.

Elitist? think again, I don't bury my head in the sand ...the writing is there for all to see.

Vaillant and Ariston and the other boiler manufacturers see the UK split ac market as their next target. They have realised as the far East manufacturers did a long time back, that if they make their kit well enough and able to be installed by monkeys then monkeys will install it.
Vaillant have offered to do the vac and pressure testing and also take up the whole warranty on their kit. They don't need any one with any amount of expertise to do the install.
A friend of mine is a combi boiler service agent and he has done the Vaillant course, he now tells me my job is a piece of p*ss! But for the cost of the vac pump, gauges and essentially having to do the gas handling certificate as well etc. he would be willing to do ac installs for Vaillant! So. a saving grace for us is the fact that outsiders will not want to do the gas handling ticket ...oops sorry am I becoming elitist here? :eek:
Fact, if any self respecting Air Con Engineer worth his salt realises that domestic work is not viable then it will not be a problem for him because he will have the technical ability to diversify to something else.
Which was my point, an air con engineer can do. An air con installer can only install ac.

I use an air con "engineer" as a subby I value his expertise, but was suprised to find out that he doesn't know the basic principles of the refrigeration cycle! Never the less I value his pidgeon holed knowledge and in many respects his speciality is valuable but, he hasn't moved his knowledge level to allow him to diversify when the inevitable invasion of monkey AC installers flood the teritory. oops am i being elitist again? :rolleyes:

Any way ... be warned.

Stay cool and don't worry all is well! ;)

Oh yes ...drive out? ask and I will be only too happy to ... so long as you're willing to reciprocate.:cool:

Vaillant Jay

28-07-2008, 10:37 AM

Eggs, is this the question you are referring to:

Prince,
The thread are still about your company's products and philosophies...
As it looks from the replies you and your colleague has posted in this thread (on a forum for professional A/C and refrigeration engineers, one might add) the company you are representing seems to think that "our" trade is unnecessary.
As we are highly trained professionals, we will get upset when someone thinks that it is OK to cut us out.
Most of us will also have seen the results of fitters trying to do our job.

Prince and Jay,

All the best in pushing your units. (But you might get better responses on a Boiler/Plumbing/Fitters board)

Remember, don't start discussions if you don't want to have a discussion where views other than your own creeps up...

Peace an love everybody.
:cool:

Hi Viking,
We sell our equipment through reputable refrigeration and air conditioning wholesalers.
We could have taken the easy route and sell through the plumbers merchants which already know the Vaillant name for quality, reliabilty and great after sales service.
Having read all the above comments.
Has anyone actually used Vaillant.
I can honestly say there are no technical issues of any kind on the Vaillant equipment.
To my knowledge I am the only Vaillant employee on this forum.
I have been in this industry for 22 years firstly with refrigeration and then onto Air conditioning as a service engineer for most of it.
Regards
Jay.

p_p

28-07-2008, 05:59 PM

Hi jay

We have installed about 15 systems over the last 18 months and not a single problem, the kit is good and at a fair price. The last one we installed appeared to have the same louvre motor mechanism and indoor pcb as a mitsi m series which i had to strip down the day before surely ac manufacturers share parts same as the automotive industry.
Anyway it was nice to see that PRINCE VAILLANT finally woke up when jay had provided all the info.

And finally don,t be afraid to install Vaillant we offer it as a mitsi alternative, you wont be disapointed.

The End

PP

taz24

28-07-2008, 06:21 PM

Are there any serious questions anyone would like answering about the above, i am the person to speak to regarding this, well me and another member actually!
Fire away.

Hello Prince.

Soon I want to install air cond / heat pump cooling and heating into my house. I have seen other manufacturers offer a system that uses the discharge to heat a cylinder of water before it is diverted to the condenser.
Do you offer a model that is able to heat water as well.

Cheers taz.

Ps do you have a catalog that I can look through.

Cheers taz.

Prince Vaillant

28-07-2008, 06:58 PM

VAILLANT V10-025 NW CLIMAVAIR PERFORMANCE 2.5KW INVERTER WALL

google it

frank

28-07-2008, 07:16 PM

Sorry Karl I wasn't trying to be elitist but more to defend the Ac professional... perhaps you lost the thread.:cool:
I know 17th edition current but not everyone has yet had the chance to get up to speed with it ...just like "f" gas requirement .. you might be C&G 28** compliant but you haven't got the current qualification (f Gas)...so in that respect you're out of date also.;)
As I said, I wasn't trying to do anything other than defend our position, there was no intention of having a dig at you .. I was responding to "Prince Vaillant" who seems to think that all of you "AC Engineers" can be outdone by a 5 day training exercise given to Plumbers who then are competent enough to do your job!
Do you believe this can be so? Are you agreeing to this view? Are you admitting your job ( I assume you're an ac engineer) is so easy that a 5 day course can convert a plumber to an AC Engineer? I really don't think you do, some how.

Elitist? think again, I don't bury my head in the sand ...the writing is there for all to see.

Vaillant and Ariston and the other boiler manufacturers see the UK split ac market as their next target. They have realised as the far East manufacturers did a long time back, that if they make their kit well enough and able to be installed by monkeys then monkeys will install it.
Vaillant have offered to do the vac and pressure testing and also take up the whole warranty on their kit. They don't need any one with any amount of expertise to do the install.
A friend of mine is a combi boiler service agent and he has done the Vaillant course, he now tells me my job is a piece of p*ss! But for the cost of the vac pump, gauges and essentially having to do the gas handling certificate as well etc. he would be willing to do ac installs for Vaillant! So. a saving grace for us is the fact that outsiders will not want to do the gas handling ticket ...oops sorry am I becoming elitist here? :eek:
Fact, if any self respecting Air Con Engineer worth his salt realises that domestic work is not viable then it will not be a problem for him because he will have the technical ability to diversify to something else.
Which was my point, an air con engineer can do. An air con installer can only install ac.

I use an air con "engineer" as a subby I value his expertise, but was suprised to find out that he doesn't know the basic principles of the refrigeration cycle! Never the less I value his pidgeon holed knowledge and in many respects his speciality is valuable but, he hasn't moved his knowledge level to allow him to diversify when the inevitable invasion of monkey AC installers flood the teritory. oops am i being elitist again? :rolleyes:

Any way ... be warned.

Stay cool and don't worry all is well! ;)

Oh yes ...drive out? ask and I will be only too happy to ... so long as you're willing to reciprocate.:cool:
Hi nevgee

I posted a design problem a while back http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50872&postcount=1

Do you think any 'split installers' could provide a solution. There are A/C Engineers and then again there are 'A/C Engineers' :D

For information, I solved the problem and the new system is working fine.

p_p

28-07-2008, 09:25 PM

VAILLANT V10-025 NW CLIMAVAIR PERFORMANCE 2.5KW INVERTER WALL

google it

Does this unit heat water then ?

May I suggest if anyone has a question about Vaillant then contact vaillant jay, who actually works for the company as tech manager.

PP

Vaillant Jay

28-07-2008, 09:59 PM

p_p

29-07-2008, 05:51 PM

Prince Vaillant

29-07-2008, 09:19 PM

which you failed to answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

erm i think WE did. :confused:

nevgee

30-07-2008, 08:53 PM

Frank.

Looks like a teaser ... I,m going to think it over.
You did mention positive pressure in the rooms, I would have thought -tve would be the norm to create a cascade system with areas of contamination risk. However, the input and extract rates suggest a -tve pressure would be there as a greater flow will travel out thru the fume cupboards.

As recirc is not permitted, and I haven't though about the size of load in the areas yet, did you consider using dole plates or gravity coils ?

p_p

30-07-2008, 10:24 PM

erm i think WE did. :confused:

NO!

You started it, then went to sleep and Jay had to finnish it to save vaillants blushes, if you decide to take it on your shoulders to represent a company you should be answerable for your actions and know the product inside out, which you know & I know you don't.

As I said THE END

Before you infract me frank please read all the posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards to you all. ( no hard feelings I hope prince )

PP

monkey spanners

30-07-2008, 11:16 PM

Hi Prince Vallient and Vallient Jay,

I was wondering as i am want to do on occasion, do these Vallient units have Lp and Hp switches fitted?

With regards to the wonderful warranty that you offer, i presume that you won't be fixing faults that are due to poor installation practice and the like, for free and would be invoicing the installer should such be found to be the case?

Does anybody else think that the Vallient logo looks a bit like the rabbit from donny darko? (not that i have seen donny darko, just seen the rabbit somewhere)

Cheers Jon

nevgee

30-07-2008, 11:50 PM

Hi Viking,
We sell our equipment through reputable refrigeration and air conditioning wholesalers.

We could have taken the easy route and sell through the plumbers merchants which already know the Vaillant name for quality, reliabilty and great after sales service.
Jay.

Which wholesalers do you use? HRP, Dean and Wood, Climate Control, SWM ..? It would interesting to know.;)

What I can't understand is why would you use reputable refrigeration and Air Con wholesalers when the majority of your installers are plumbers and gas Co's they wouldn't normally have accounts with such wholesalers would they?

... I did as you suggested and Googled Vaillant I did the installer search for Leeds .. all plumbers I did also for Bradford ..all Plumbers I did for various towns and cities ...Hmm all plumbers ?:confused:

I think that basically ... Vaillant has decided to train up the existing work force loyal to Vaillant boilers and possibly found that to be lacking, so now what?

I wonder how all those plumbing companies will feel as they discover that Vaillant is now spreading the option to a wider field. Surely if they over spread their installer work force they're most likely to dilute the quality of instal and subsequenty begin to pick up more problems?

Time will tell :cool:

Prince Vaillant

31-07-2008, 05:19 PM

NO!

You started it, then went to sleep and Jay had to finnish it to save vaillants blushes, if you decide to take it on your shoulders to represent a company you should be answerable for your actions and know the product inside out, which you know & I know you don't.

As I said THE END

Before you infract me frank please read all the posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards to you all. ( no hard feelings I hope prince )

PP

LOL no offence taken, i posted it at 25-07-2008, 05:39 PM whilst at work, i then went home and rested! lol

:o

Vaillant Jay

31-07-2008, 05:21 PM

Hi Jon,
All our units have LP and HP Swiches fitted.
If we go to an install and it is of poor quality we will give the installer the option of putting this right.
I find if nothing else this is a good training session on site.
And yes it does look a little like Donny Darko ;-)

Hi Nevgee,
So far to my knowledge only one plumber has installed a Vaillant Air Con unit.
The install was of a very high standard.
As previously stated above our distributors are United Refrigeration ,Ryan Air Conditioning Spares and ACS NW.
I take it you have never seen or used a Vaillant system.
Or for that fact heard of one with a problem.
As I can see from above P-P has installed Vaillant units and not had one problem surely this is a good sign for anyone.
Again as previously stated above we do not aim to sell to plumbers but if a refrigeration / Air conditioning trained plumber should want to buy one, who am I to stop him.
There is a glitch on our website at the moment for searching for a local installer.
Our IT department building a new micro site as we speak.
I hope this answers your questions.
Jay.

Argus

31-07-2008, 07:03 PM

frank

31-07-2008, 08:18 PM

NO!

You started it, then went to sleep and Jay had to finnish it to save vaillants blushes, if you decide to take it on your shoulders to represent a company you should be answerable for your actions and know the product inside out, which you know & I know you don't.

As I said THE END

Before you infract me frank please read all the posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards to you all. ( no hard feelings I hope prince )

PP
I wouldn't dream of it p_p - healthy discussion and all that. It's not got out of hand - so far :D

nevgee

31-07-2008, 09:15 PM

Fair enuf .... :cool:

Nothing wrong with a little sparring to help get a feel of the weight ... :D

nevgee

31-07-2008, 09:44 PM

Hi Nevgee,
So far to my knowledge only one plumber has installed a Vaillant Air Con unit.
The install was of a very high standard.
As previously stated above our distributors are United Refrigeration ,Ryan Air Conditioning Spares and ACS NW.
I take it you have never seen or used a Vaillant system.
Or for that fact heard of one with a problem. ...
Jay.

I don't quite see the reasoning that not having heard of a ship sinking might suggest ships don't sink. So truthfully I haven't heard a Vaillant AC system failing ..but I guess the same applies. ;)
I realise the difficulty in finding a national distributor for your products, especially as the main wholesalers are already signed up with other manufacturers.
But again I have to say that although I do know of Ryan AC and United Refrigeration, it's only in passing, ads in jounals etc, I certainly wouldn't consider them as national / major wholesalers, well not in our area for sure. I realise time will make the changes just as many others I have seen over the years.

Finally, I'm never adverse to trying new products what ever they are, so long as they do the job as stated on the label, and there is a good tech support should it be needed, and of course, the price has to be right.:)

I recall trying out a BPHE many years ago (1982) the criticism I got was huge. It would never work, they were under capacity etc. I never went back to shell & Tube after that and now they're used in so many applications .. even boilers. :p:cool:

So hopefully for Vaillant we will see more of them in the market place and a good reputation will grow.:)

Brian_UK

31-07-2008, 11:28 PM

.

Vaillant Jay has brought this thread back to its original theme - Vaillant units and his company's offer of help to technical queries.

He's not the first manufacturer's technical man to post here - nor, I hope, the last. But many have had a rough ride for no apparent reason than they have posted here and identified their companies.

What I hope to see the back of is the immediate response in these cases from others to criticise the manufacturer's products.

Can we please draw a line under all this and hope that Vaillant, Toshiba, LG and and all the other manufacturers will post their help and expertise in their products in future.

.Agree with you Argus in general.

However I am confused over who works for whom.

Prince Vaillant started this thread and now it appears that he does not work for Vaillant so is not qualified to answer any questions that may be raised.

Jay, of Vaillant, has gallantly stood up to be counted and we should all thank him for that.

I believe that he will provide us all with good service and assistance rather as Hendrag has for LG.

taz24

31-07-2008, 11:33 PM

Hi All,
The V10-025NW is an inverter wall mount.
The Air to water system will be available later in the year, it is right now going through rigorous tests in Germany I will keep you updated when its launched.
Regards
Jay

Hi Guys.

I found a site for the one above but it does not mention anything about water heating.
Is there a site were I can get system specifications from please. Also do you do a ducted version heat pump. I have considered fitting a ducted airhandler in the attic and if it could be combined with a water heater.

Cheers taz.

Prince Vaillant

01-08-2008, 10:50 AM

Agree with you Argus in general.

However I am confused over who works for whom.

Prince Vaillant started this thread and now it appears that he does not work for Vaillant so is not qualified to answer any questions that may be raised.

Jay, of Vaillant, has gallantly stood up to be counted and we should all thank him for that.

I believe that he will provide us all with good service and assistance rather as Hendrag has for LG.

I work for Ryan Air Conditioning Spares and therefore as a supplier/wholesaler would say i am qualified to help with questions?

Where do the rest of you work, that would be nice to know, not so much cloak and daggers then eh!

Lets all stand up and be proud of our industry!

Vaillant Jay

01-08-2008, 04:27 PM

Hi Taz,
Our Ducted units will be released in April we do however do duted units on our VRF and Multi Range.
For the air to water system no specs are out yet but I will keep you informed when they are available.
Anyone who is around the HEVAR show (London) 24th and 25th September pop onto our stand and say hello.
Be good to put faces to names.
Regards Jay.

Karl Hofmann

01-08-2008, 08:13 PM

Hello Prince.

Soon I want to install air cond / heat pump cooling and heating into my house. I have seen other manufacturers offer a system that uses the discharge to heat a cylinder of water before it is diverted to the condenser.
Do you offer a model that is able to heat water as well.

Cheers taz.

Ps do you have a catalog that I can look through.

Cheers taz.

Taz,

It seems like the end of this year is the time where the big guys will be launching their air to water heat pumps, I pester my Worcester rep constantly in getting a little product and service training but even their training centre claim to know little about them yet despite their advertising them in Gas Installer... The only company that I know of who supply air to water heat pumps currently are Trianco with their Activair system. http://www.trianco.co.uk/activair.cfm.

I get the impression that no one seems to know where this kind of kit fits as it is a heat pump, so logically an aircon/ refrigeration piece of equipment but it is for heating domestic water so it is a heating engineer/ plumbers kind of thing... The problem is, aircon/ refrigeration guys don't really want to mess about in Mrs Jonses airing cupboard and to most plumbers/heating guys, this is black magic to be avoided at all costs... If a plumber fits this kit, he won't be able to repair it an if there is a leak in the water system, then an aircon man won't want to bother himself with a leaky water pipe/ cylinder..

Eventually, I see there being a tradesman who works on this kind of stuff who is a little bit plumber, a little bit aircon/ ref man and a little bit sparks to deal with the range of new domestic heating systems, be they air to air, air to water, solar and / or PV.... Baxi will soon be releasing their EcoGen gas fired heating boiler with a neat little stirling engine built in to provide around 1Kw of electricity which can be either used in the home or sold back to the grid so who do you call when it goes wrong? (All machines will fail at some time in its life.. Especially a Baxi) a gas man or a sparky?

I hope that I have explained my view on domestic appliances clearly.. I am not in favour of untrained plumbers fitting heat pumps... I know of one who fitted one and he swears that he will never try again as the install was so bad that it cost him a fortune for me to put it all right. We cannot escape the fact that refrigerants will be used more and more in domestic heating and so should accept that perhaps there should be guys who have the training to work on this kind of equipment who are not air conditioning engineers..

nevgee

01-08-2008, 09:22 PM

Air to water heat pumps are available from Calorex Heat pumps in Maldon Essex (do a net search and it will find)...Their units I believe are the only ones so far to produce LPHW to 65C. They also do ground source heat pumps along with other forms of heta recovery /dehumidifiers for swim pool applications etc.
Daikin and Mitsubishi also do Air to water heat pumps.

As for the trade divide, more and more are we all being subjected to systems where differing trades are encroaching one another. We work a lot with heatpumps with LPHW services and water systems attached, along with the inevitable electrics.

I believe any self respecting Refrig /air con engineer would be able to handle electrics in any case as a means to fault finding.

The Calorex air/water heat pumps I have worked on have usually been installed by plumbing/ building companies but when it comes to resolving problems with them we get called out. Usually the problems have been external faults with the LPHW or system or wiring and not with the heat pump unit.

I think we're heading into an industry of trades without frontiers.:eek:

Time to start adapting.

nevgee

01-08-2008, 09:29 PM

http://www.calorex.com/Product_range/Domestic_ground_source_heat_pumps/introductionASHP2.htm

Brian_UK

01-08-2008, 11:02 PM

I work for Ryan Air Conditioning Spares and therefore as a supplier/wholesaler would say i am qualified to help with questions?
Thanks Prince, situation clarified and understood.

nevgee

02-08-2008, 12:15 AM

Taz,

... The problem is, aircon/ refrigeration guys don't really want to mess about in Mrs Jonses airing cupboard and to most plumbers/heating guys, this is black magic to be avoided at all costs... If a plumber fits this kit, he won't be able to repair it an if there is a leak in the water system, then an aircon man won't want to bother himself with a leaky water pipe/ cylinder..

Eventually, I see there being a tradesman who works on this kind of stuff who is a little bit plumber, a little bit aircon/ ref man and a little bit sparks to deal with the range of new domestic heating systems, be they air to air, air to water, solar and / or PV....

.....so who do you call when it goes wrong? a gas man or a sparky?

.. I am not in favour of untrained plumbers fitting heat pumps...

...... We cannot escape the fact that refrigerants will be used more and more in domestic heating and so should accept that perhaps there should be guys who have the training to work on this kind of equipment who are not air conditioning engineers..

I have been to 18 air to water domestic heat pumps this year and all of the problems with exception to one noisy compressor were either electrical or LPHW system faults.

What I find very hard to understand is why anyone would look upon an AW heat pump as "black art" and mysterious. If the instructions are followed correctly these units are easier to instal than any gas boiler. They require an electric mains supply, some interconnection wiring to the CH/HW programmer and that should be it. Some require slight variations depending whether the control system is "S" or "Y" plan etc. or have booster tanks.

The pipework is so simple one flow one return connection. These units are really so simple they could be destined for the diy market.

However, as we all know the interior workings of AW heat pumps are simply a fridge in reverse as all of you guys will know. As most of you also know it can be difficult explaining in layman terms just how an air con manages to produce cold air ..."it's just like your fridge luv but with a fan" So how do you explain to the client how a fridge in reverse produces hot water from cool outdoor air?

If electricians and plumbers have difficulty in understanding the laws of thermodynamics as well then surely the only people reasonably positioned to do the repairs must be refrig and air con engineers?

As for system leaks and electrical problems outwith the AW unit then it shouldn't be too difficult for the Ref / AC engineer to identify the problem and depending on his expertise he could do the repair to the leak or replace the thermost or advise the client he needs to get the respective tradesperson in to do the work.

Many a time I get called out to AHU's and systems with LPHW fed from a boiler. If the fault lays there I would tell the client to get a plumber / corgi guy in.

One thing a Ref / AC man can do is be a little bit electrician and a little bit Plumber I doubt the other trades being able to do the same likewise.

The principles of refrigeration are universal, so what goes on inside a split air con system is no different to that inside a heat pump ...so it should be easy for an air con engineer.

The cost of energy is rising and this technology will be the future. I somehow can't see any government in the UK supporting a domestic air con market that will draw unecessary energy from the grid during summer months, as cooling isn't really needed in our climate. But heating is a necessity in winter and heat pumps are a good way forward with COP's typically 3:1 the authorities are already encouraging the use of heatpumps air and ground source ...it is the way forward.

:cool:

taz24

02-08-2008, 01:11 AM

Hi Taz,
Our Ducted units will be released in April we do however do duted units on our VRF and Multi Range.Regards Jay.

Cheers Jay.

Taz,

I We cannot escape the fact that refrigerants will be used more and more in domestic heating and so should accept that perhaps there should be guys who have the training to work on this kind of equipment who are not air conditioning engineers..

Cheers Karl

Cheers Nevgee

taz

Karl Hofmann

02-08-2008, 02:55 AM

Many a time I get called out to AHU's and systems with LPHW fed from a boiler. If the fault lays there I would tell the client to get a plumber / corgi guy in.

:cool:

And there lies the problem..... The customer has waited in, possibly taken a day off work to wait for you. You are there for fifteen minutes or so, and tell her... You need a plumber love... Here is my bill for the call out...:mad:

She called YOU to fix her heating/ hot water, not to be told that she needs a different guy... She has no hot water, there is no hot water to bath the kids when they are home from school, it is Winter, she has taken a day off work and waited for some ****y **** to say "Get someone else, this aint my department" and give her a bill for that gem of advise...
Talk about "Rip off Britain"

The Customer expects you to come out, fix the problem and bill her for a repair.. Parts must be widely available, off the shelf or at worst next day... All kudos to Calorex, but they are not exactly big players with an easy supply of parts, not in the same way as they are available for Baxis, Worcesters or Vaillants.

With regard to the "Black Magic" comment, you should find that the domestic heating profession is a very conservative bunch.. Many of the older guys refuse to fit Combis because they still see them as unreliable and difficult to repair. The installer is nearly always the first person that the customer will contact in the event of a problem and If they know that they cannot repair the equipment that they install, then the customer is let down, the otherwise excellent equipment gets a bad reputation and the customer is well and truly cheesed off. Some heating guys will relish the challenge of learning new stuff, others like to stick with what they know.

If the engineer that the customer calls out cannot offer the full "One stop" repair and service package, then he may be the most fantastic air conditioning engineer in the world.. But he is still a worthless fool to the customer

If a heat pump returns 3Kw for every 1 consumed, then this is more expensive than heating with Natural gas, and hence of no value to the customer

nevgee

02-08-2008, 02:34 PM

And there lies the problem..... The customer has waited in, possibly taken a day off work to wait for you. You are there for fifteen minutes or so, and tell her... You need a plumber love... Here is my bill for the call out...

We wouldn't have charged her at all, no work no pay ....:)

She called YOU to fix her heating/ hot water, not to be told that she needs a different guy... She has no hot water, there is no hot water to bath the kids when they are home from school, it is Winter, she has taken a day off work and waited for some ****y **** ? to say "Get someone else, this aint my department" and give her a bill for that gem of advise... Taking this attitude would creat a very poor customer relation, and should not to be condoned, we work with an aim to provide a service not a dis service.

Talk about "Rip off Britain"
Smile it might get better :D

The Customer expects you to come out, fix the problem and bill her for a repair.. Parts must be widely available, off the shelf or at worst next day... All kudos to Calorex, but they are not exactly big players with an easy supply of parts, not in the same way as they are available for Baxis, Worcesters or Vaillants.

Calorex parts are very easy to obtain in fact a large proportion of them are available at most reputable plumbers merchants, electrical wholesalers and certainly nextday from the factory.:p ...quite obviously you're not familliar with the Calorex equipment.

With regard to the "Black Magic" comment, you should find that the domestic heating profession is a very conservative bunch.. Time for them to change then ! Many of the older guys refuse to fit Combis because they still see them as unreliable and difficult to repair. The installer is nearly always the first person that the customer will contact in the event of a problem and If they know that they cannot repair the equipment that they install, then the customer is let down, the otherwise excellent equipment gets a bad reputation and the customer is well and truly cheesed off. I can agree with you here.

....Some heating guys will relish the challenge of learning new stuff...

That being so, then so they should.
I know a couple of combi service guys who do nothing but combi repair work and they tell me the average plumber is willing to fit but not willing to repair, fortunatey for my two mates it brings them ample work.

If the engineer that the customer calls out cannot offer the full "One stop" repair and service package, then he may be the most fantastic air conditioning engineer in the world.. But he is still a worthless fool to the customer

I don't think you are right with this comment and don't think there is anyone who would hold such a poor view ...strange world you must live in.

If a heat pump returns 3Kw for every 1 consumed, then this is more expensive than heating with Natural gas, and hence of no value to the customer:(

Ok so I did mention in an earlier post about people needing to understand the principles of themodynamics .... and so we have found someone ..... Is there any point in going any further :mad:

kiloWatt should be writen kW not Kw :p

Ok so, I think I understand most of what you're saying but how can you expect a one stop callout to be practical. The service guy will have to have Corgi and all of the respective modules and add ons that go with it; then part "p" electrical compliance along with "F" gas compliance It just would not be practical for one guy to hold all of these qualifications never mind the cost of getting them and then maintaining them. His charge out rate would be high to compensate.
An employer wouldn't want all that training locked up in one guy, he couldn't afford to have all his guys trained to such a level, so now where do we go with it?

The customer wants to phone one person and get a result ..

If you were to take your car to the dealer ...they don't have mechanics that do all the tasks involved. Repairs to the car are split up into various speciality trades, electrics, AC, body, etc. It is a pity Mrs Jones can't take her house down to the domestic services dealership where she could get her one stop repairs.

Likewise if you have a fault with your tv or cable / broadband ...who do you call .... Ghost Busters? :D

My underlying point in all of this was to say that an experienced refrig /ac engineer is most likely able to turn his hand to other trades and in most cases would more than likely be able to resolve the problem.... not the other way around.

Gripe all you want but it will not change things :p

Who're ya gonna call ...?;)l

Karl Hofmann

02-08-2008, 03:52 PM

I think that someone is being just a little silly here, and it ain't me...:eek:

I'm not sure that I understand just why a one stop service on this equipment is not feasible.. There are guys out there who already have most of the required qualifications and certificates in place.. I am Corgi registered for domestic boilers, NG and LPG, am certified to work on pressurised, unvented systems, have my 17th edition, Level 3 cert in inspection and testing, registered for part P, certified for part L, my refrigerant handling cert is still valid, I have all the required equipment, calibrated where required, valid insurance, reasonable experience (There is always someone who has more experience and ability, though I fear not Mr Nevgee :p), Plenty of ability and a "Can do" attitude that seems to work well. So I think that it would be fair to say that with a little extra effort it would be a pretty small step for a guy like me... and there are plenty of guys like me out in the real world who could easily cope with installing, servicing and repairing virtually ANY type of domestic heating system given a reliable source of parts.. And if you really think that the customer who calls you to say that her heating or hot water isn't working will tolerate being told that you can only do various bits... After you arrive, then I would ask you what colour is the sky on your planet...;) Because the customer doesn't care, all they care about is getting it fixed as quickly and as cost effectively as possible.
I'm not sure about yours, but my van runs on diesel, I would say that you have too much money to be able to turn up at a customers home and shrug your shoulders, saying "Cant do that bit" and then drive home again.

I too love repairing combis and would much rather repair a boiler than replace it. If I do need to replace it I always offer the customer a range of options for long term savings and reliability at a reasonable price.. For the life of me I cant see how a heat pump with a 3 Kilowatt output for a 1 Kilowatt input can compare to Natural gas central heating... It is not a case of thermodynamics (You do love that word, is it one that you have recently learned:p) It is a case of simple economics... It is cheaper to heat by Natural gas, check your bills, and have a look at how much your gas costs and then how much electricity costs .... Who ya gonna call?.. NOT Nevgee!! :rolleyes:

I'm also curious just why you think that an aircon man is capable of doing gas, plumbing and elecrics, yet a sparky can't do these things or a plumber cant do all of these things... Surly it is down to the ability of the person involved, not what he does... Are you sure that you are not being a little elitist?... Not even a little???:confused:

Ok I'm now sure that we are both boring everyone else with this silliness and I'm sure that you will demand that you have the last word, so I shall look forward to your flogging a dead horse, feel free to huff and puff, the rest of us can go and do some real work...:cool:

Hugs and kisses...

nevgee

02-08-2008, 05:01 PM

Karl Hofmann

02-08-2008, 05:54 PM

Efficiency is output/input x 100

With heat pump ; 1 kW input gives 3 kW output
so, 3/1 x 100 = 300% efficient.

Where as a boiler at best ..80%? unless it's a condensing boiler

1kW (Natural Gas) into boiler x efficiency say 80% (perhaps) = 0.8 kW output which means you're throwing 0.2 kW up the flue and using only 80% of the energy input.

With a heat pump you use 1 kW of energy into the unit and get 3 kW possibly 4 kW out.

To raise the temperature of a fixed volume of water. For example 150 litre cylinder need about 188 kW of energy to raise the temperature from 10 deg C (tap water) to 55 deg C .
With electricity at 10p per kWhr then it will cost £15.00. Simple. If gas was say 5p /kWhr
then the cost would be £7.50

With the heat pump you would only use (188/300)10 = £6.27

Is there a boiler that can be 100% efficient? certainly not 300%

I'm not trying to out do anyone here. can't see why a reasoned arguement should raise your heckles ....

Karl, say as you like we aren't going to agree so lets just agree to disagree.... :)

Nevgee,

I agree with your basic idea though I'm not at all sure about the 188kw of energy to raise the 150 litres through 45C, I'm sure it is closer to 7.85Kw but the data is flawed, My electricity is 10.4pence per kwh and gas is 2.58 per kwh based on a bill from a few months ago... Yes I know that I'm paying too much!!

Given that all boilers installed now (With very few exceptions) must be band A or B, which means that they will be condensers, the efficiency of the gas increases (provided that the heating is designed properly) a few pecentage points and the gas is now shown to be considerably cheaper.. There are those who may argue that gas prices are increasing, but this will also reflect in the price of electricity as many generation plants are gas powered. So I will always tell my customers using Natural gas to stick with gas until such a time comes where heat pumps become efficient enough to offset the difference in price, bearing in mind that Tosh were making utterances of a 5 to 1 COP isn't too far off... (Allowing for marketing BS).. When faced with Oil and LPG the heatpump is already neck and neck, if not slightly ahead and against electric only heating, a heat pump is a no brainer

If I remember correctly I wasn't the one who was all upset at Vaillant selling to " Plumbers"