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mauricio Fort
23-07-2008, 05:50 PM
Hi friends, One customer he said me, that he see one system with CO2 over fruit before enter to IQF.
Somebody can help me with the system.

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Only if you promise not to laugh!

I haven't seen mechanical CO2 applied before a IQF but in EMERGENCY situations something as simple (and expensive) as buying dry ice, placing in an insulated container with two openings you blow hot air trough one opening and get really cold air + gaseous CO2 out the other opening and on the product. Used in ventilated areas!

Someone that doesn't know refrigeration could have thought this is a CO2 system before the IQF, though as I said it is an EMERGENCY aid when the IQF cannot cope with the load.

US Iceman
23-07-2008, 06:24 PM
...one system with CO2 over fruit before enter to IQF


They may be talking about using CO2 as an expendable refrigerant to pre-cool the fruit before the fruit enters the IQF. If this freezing operation is only used for one season during the harvest it might make sense to do this.

Josip
23-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Hi, :)

you are right Mike ... maybe like this ...


.....The processing center receives berries from the farmer, weighs in the load and at the appropriate time, dumps
the trays into a hopper. They are then sprayed with water, passing before an inspection table lined by three or
four women on each side inspecting and removing foreign material of any nature. This conveyor belt allows three
to four minutes for berry inspection before they enter the Immediate Quick Freeze (IQF) tunnel. Here they are
sprayed with carbon dioxide (360 degrees below zero) for immediate freezing. Emerging, the berries receive their
final inspection before being packaged into thirty-pound cartons for storage......

more about here ... http://beachberryfarms.com/behindourlabel.html

kind of DIY ;) to preserve harvest ... believe not too much expensive ...

Best regards, Josip :)

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 07:45 PM
Who's Mike? ... Oh you mean Us..ok I get it!

Josip your post is right but for cryogenic freezing, not as an aid to an IQF!

NoNickName
23-07-2008, 07:58 PM
Dry ice spray is much used these days in place of nitrogen, because CO2 doesn't change the colour of foods being frozen.
Eg.: Findus does this. There is case study I read in which they compare hamburger freezing the traditional way (190 grams in 11 minutes in a blast freezer) against CO2 ice spray (90 seconds core frozen).

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 08:04 PM
Dry ice spray is much used these days in place of nitrogen, because CO2 doesn't change the colour of foods being frozen.
Eg.: Findus does this. There is case study I read in which they compare hamburger freezing the traditional way (190 grams in 11 minutes in a blast freezer) against CO2 ice spray (90 seconds core frozen).

Agreed, aknowledged, ... now lets come back from cryogenic freezing ... please!

Why on earth would this gentleman need an IQF for?

Josip
23-07-2008, 08:13 PM
Hi, GXMPLX :)


Who's Mike? ... Oh you mean Us..ok I get it!

Josip your post is right but for cryogenic freezing, not as an aid to an IQF!

.... there are cryogenic IQF, but as NoNickName said they found that dry ice is better ... the same is with dry ice blast cleaning instead of sand blast ...

Best regards, Josip :)

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 08:23 PM
Hi, GXMPLX :)



.... there are cryogenic IQF, but as NoNickName said they found that dry ice is better ... the same is with dry ice blast cleaning instead of sand blast ...

Best regards, Josip :)

Thanks again first I've heard of. And why would you use CO2 being more expensive and need to use more than liquid nigrogen?

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 08:29 PM
And please donīt tell me you are saying you would place a CO2 cryogenic IQF freezer in front of a watever IQF Mr. mauricio Fort has in order to do exactly WHAT with it?

Josip
23-07-2008, 09:33 PM
Hi, GXMPLX :)


Thanks again first I've heard of. And why would you use CO2 being more expensive and need to use more than liquid nigrogen?

You've heard of, nice, but some people on this forum maybe not ...

I do not know about production expenses, are you sure ...? Really, I do not know, but (IMHO), it must be more expensive to get a liquid nitrogen (4 or 5 stages system-maybe I am not right;)) then to get a liquid CO2 with a single stage ammonia system ....

.... however, it is maybe possible, because N2 you have within air (78%+) and easy to get into liquefaction plant, but to get CO2 you need to have some plant (brewery or similar) where you have a clean CO2 as a waste - not exactly ....

Best regards, Josip :)

Josip
23-07-2008, 09:55 PM
Hi, GXMPLX :)


And please donīt tell me you are saying you would place a CO2 cryogenic IQF freezer in front of a watever IQF Mr. mauricio Fort has in order to do exactly WHAT with it?

... I must admit my English is not so good and this question and its meaning I do not understand fully, but ...

... let me ask you one question ... did you ever work on industrial freezing tunnels for sensible fruits like berry on particular plants and trees ... if your answer is yes, then you should know how important is to preserve it whole to obtain A class product (put a pack into microwave machine and you have just picked berries) .... there are people ready to pay for it ...

... so for me it will be ok to use dry ice (small amount and not expensive) to freeze a skin of berry and proceed with normal freezing in any tunnel (I prefer ammonia) to obtain A class product - very expensive one ... that sounds reasonable to you or not ?

But I can be completely wrong .... I do not know everything...

Best regards, Josip :)

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 10:12 PM
Hi, GXMPLX :)



You've heard of, nice, but some people on this forum maybe not ...

Best regards, Josip :)

Thanks Josip, my day started to improve ... a little ..., at least I learned or should I say re-learned-membered that Scroll compressors might need a suction muffler if you don't install a U bend in it's suction.

:off topic:I must apologize to you for this was really a rhetorical question but as my wife says I may have a caustic sense of humor :mad:other people don't understand and gets mad at me.

Don't tell Mi ... er ... Us ... er ... well ... Him about this or I'll get canned or whacked again!

CO2 prices depend heavily on closeness to factories and may be the dominant factor here.

Have a nice day!:D

NoNickName
23-07-2008, 10:12 PM
Exactly, berries are the center core product for dry ice flash freezing.
And it is also quite easily separated from nitrogen, with fractional distillation of air, or some other industrial byproduct.

GXMPLX
23-07-2008, 10:42 PM
Hi friends, One customer he said me, that he see one system with CO2 over fruit before enter to IQF.
Somebody can help me with the system.

Mr. Fort, could you please rephrase the question stating clearly if you want to flash freeze your product before it enters your IQF or something else?

Thanks!

... yes wife! sorry caustic humour again! I can't help it!:mad:

US Iceman
24-07-2008, 12:12 AM
Don't tell Mi ... er ... Us ... er ... well ... Him about this or I'll get canned or whacked again!


And he/him/a mod was watching too.:(

It is not uncommon for some processors to utilize a pre-cooling section. This can substantially increase an IQF capacity. I've heard of using some hi-temperature evaporators and even the use of liquid CO2.

I think a lot of this depends on the type of IQF and how they try to prevent product clumping also.

GXMPLX
24-07-2008, 01:31 AM
Tks, I always need a reminder big brother is watching me … or wife!.

Yes, maybe Mr . Fort should first give more details on the type of IQF too.

Every cryogenic IQF has a pre-cooling section thus I rule them out in this case.

I don’t think doing it with CO2 is precisely economic but depends also on the product and quality improvement, of course.

We ... (or I'll) better wait if Mr. Fort can tell us more details.