Consider this...

[US Iceman]

If you were to go back in time and show an electronic/digital wrist watch to someone from the middle ages, what would they think?

Would you be held by the grand inquisitor for questioning?

Would you be burned at the stake or stoned or some other creative way of attempting to modify behavior?:rolleyes:

What might prompt these reactions?

Well.... obviously the amazing item would be considered as a heretical object. It does something as if by magic (which is bad!) Does that make this something we should not use or consider evil?

What is magic and why is it bad?


Magic is.... something that cannot be explained. If you can't explain it then how does it work?

And, if it cannot be explained does this make it a bad proposition to consider for your use?

See any similarities in our business or today's world?;)

[GXMPLX]

Too many rhetorical questions!

We try to stone you here every day, haven't you noticed? Maybe we should throw stones harder!

Magic works without expanations if you explain it then it doesn't work!

You mean like when we installed the first Glacier Scroll in low temp? ... No, I don't see any similarities!

[superswill]

“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering".

[US Iceman]

Too many rhetorical questions!

We try to stone you here every day, haven't you noticed? Maybe we should throw stones harder!


It's not about the stoning itself, it's why does the response have to result in the act of stoning?

Think that one over...:D

[GXMPLX]

It's not about the stoning itself, it's why does the response have to result in the act of stoning?

Think that one over...:D

The stones ar now virtual!

Go show that to someone in the middle ages!

[US Iceman]

“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering".


That's a good response. Let's take it a step further....

An owner does not have to know how a refrigeration system works, right. It does or it doesn't. All he notices are the temperatures are proper and it's costing me an arm and a leg to operate.:D

On the other hand, a refrigeration engineer should understand what causes the system to use energy the way it does to maintain the temperature.

It's not the actual act, it's the perception.

Back to the digital watch... If everyone suddenly recognizes the usefulness of a watch to tell time, it doesn't matter how it works, as long as it does work. By accepting the value of the watch the issue of being bad is removed.

[chillin out]

Has everybody been on the slingjuice tonight?....lol

This is good...

Magic works without expanations if you explain it then it doesn't work!

Chillin:):)

[US Iceman]

Has everybody been on the slingjuice tonight?....lol


:D

Nope...just offering some food for thought. The more you think, the more you learn....;)

[GXMPLX]

:D

Nope...just offering some food for thought. The more you think, the more you learn....;)

Yeah then you start trying hard ... and becomes more difficult ... been on that road ... or did I dream it?

[US Iceman]

This is almost too easy.



...or did I dream it?


Reminds me of an old story... Are you man having a dream of being a butterfly, or a butterfly having a dream?:D

Look, what I'm trying to get with this discussion is that the operation of refrigeration systems has principles. These are the basics. The more we understand them the easier our job becomes. It's not magic, it's just the basic principles we are working with.

Take energy conservation for example. Someone might talk about using high efficiency motors. Does that make the system more efficient? Some, but very small benefits are the result.

Some talk about high efficiency compressors, while leaving the discharge pressure high. Will changing the old compressor for one that is more efficient save energy? Yes, but again very small.

VFD's don't save energy. The use of them when properly applied to the fan, pump, or compressor saves energy.

The main issue is not with the components, it is how the components are used and how they interact in a dynamic situation.

Have a conversation with someone who says the discharge pressure cannot go below a certain value, say 150 psig (10.3 bar gauge) on an ammonia system. Anything you suggest as to the reasons why you can go below this pressure and you might hear; that's bad, it will hurt the system or it will not work!

You're getting too tangled up in the philosophy aspect to see the answers.;)

superswill offered a good comment: “One man's "magic" is another man's engineering".

It's not magic, it's applied engineering... And in most cases, the engineering is fairly simple.

[GXMPLX]

This is almost too easy.

Reminds me of an old story... Are you man having a dream of being a butterfly, or a butterfly having a dream?

Just creamed the butterfly!



…You're getting too tangled up in the philosophy aspect to see the answers.

Yea sure! Like it was me who tried to explain a poor guy what a watch was in the middle ages!



superswill offered a good comment: “One man's "magic" is another man's engineering".

It's not magic, it's applied engineering... And in most cases, the engineering is fairly simple.

If it’s magic...
Then why can’t it be everlasting
Like the sun that always shines
Like the poets in this rhyme
Like the galaxies in time…

Maybe, but this time I must agree with chillin_out, someone had too much slingjuice!

[coolments]

Iceman, I think I see where you are coming from and agree, most engineers know why it works but not how it works. Understand how and any issues with why become alot easier to deal with.

[US Iceman]

...someone had too much slingjuice!


You should find out what that is first!



If it’s magic...
Then why can’t it be everlasting
Like the sun that always shines
Like the poets in this rhyme
Like the galaxies in time…


Have you ever seen an extremely old refrigeration system? They do not last that long without someone understanding how they work or what you have to do, to make them work.

From what I have seen we (the industry) have trouble getting the system to run past the warranty expiration.

One old gentleman offered a saying that might be relevant here; With all thy getting, get understanding.

[US Iceman]

...most engineers know why it works but not how it works. Understand how and any issues with why become alot easier to deal with.


The man wins a prize!

Another old saying that is applicable to this situation could be: You can't see the forest for the trees.

The need to be able to separate "small details" from "bigger details" is very important. Otherwise, people have to resort to turning knobs and turning adjusting stems and adding refrigerant.

Things work for a reason...;)

[Sergei]

Regarding to energy conservation.
Energy savings in refrigeration is different compare to other industries. In many industries energy saved only by improving efficiency of energy using components. For example, air supply fan. Install VFD and save energy reducing the speed of this fan.
In industrial refrigeration one component of the plant influences on power use of other component. Major energy savings can be achieved though balancing of this components to keep total power use at minimum level.

[superswill]

the point i was trying to make was just because we know why something works do we now how it works?!! many a customer knows why they server rooms needs to kept cold but they dont know how its kept cold,not understanding and not knowing are two different things

i know why i will catch a cold working in winter outside in a pair of shorts but does that make me a doctor?!



"I’ve got a pen in my pocket does that make me a writer
Standing on the mountain doesn’t make me no higher
Putting on gloves don’t make you a fighter
And all the study in the world
Doesn’t make it science"

Paul weller what a class few lines and so true


i can pressure test am i commissioning engineer?

[wambat]

The problem i have with your discussion is that in the case of what we call a technition is the training that many get is insufficient for the (how it works)because the major emphases is on the (why it works) I have always maintained that the first 5 years in this business is really just the beginning. If you really want to get to the (how) of it you need to get the technition trainind in the engineering phase of this business where they get a through understanding of Thermodynamics such as a B.S. degree or equivilent. The need for constant education in an essential requirement. If not a B.S. degree then how about a "certification certificate" of the chapters 9,10,11,in "Principles of Refrigeration" by Dossat. These chapters should be so well understood that every technition should be able to discuss the concepts on the equivilent basis with a refrigeration engineer. Actually the book should be read and understood a minimum of 10 times from cover to cover. Look, here's my philosophy: you go around only once in this life so wht not be all you can be with your abilities.i :)

[US Iceman]

Granted, it can be difficult to make the connections between how it works and why it works. Personally I think it is important to use every source of information you can find. The Internet makes this a whole lot easier.


Manufacturers of components (solenoid valves, etc.) all have various sources of literature on their components and equipment. All someone has to do is avail themselves to these sources of information, ask a few questions, and soon you might have a Eureka moment where the light bulb goes off with more understanding.

[wambat]

I must say that from the discussions I have witnessed on this and other forums that this is a tremendous source of intelligent information. Is this a typical source you were referring to. ;)

[PaulZ]

Hi Iceman
I tend to agree with you. Some technicians don't understand how components in a system should work and for that matter how the entire system should work. They might have a fair idea.
Until you fully understand how everything works and what it is there for how can you fix it properly.
We have had technicians who have done repeated fixes. When asked if they knew how this component worked or what it was for they could not tell me.
As you said we work with basic principles and it isn't rocket science and it's not magic.
Superswill is right to some customers it is magic but to a good technician it's just engineering.
Paul

[GXMPLX]

You should find out what that is first!
No idea!



Have you ever seen an extremely old refrigeration system? They do not last that long without someone understanding how they work or what you have to do, to make them work.

I trash them immediately and replace them with a more efficient new one!



From what I have seen we (the industry) have trouble getting the system to run past the warranty expiration.

My main problem is the ones that don’t!



One old gentleman offered a saying that might be relevant here; With all thy getting, get understanding.


… it can be difficult to make the connections between how it works and why it works. Personally I think it is important to use every source of information you can find. The Internet makes this a whole lot easier.

Manufacturers of components (solenoid valves, etc.) all have various sources of literature on their components and equipment. All someone has to do is avail themselves to these sources of information, ask a few questions, and soon you might have a Eureka moment where the light bulb goes off with more understanding.

No matter how difficult this is the engineer’s DUTY… or else …

Sources of information agreed but experiment if you don’t have them!

Sometimes breaking it is the only way to learn!

The problem I see is that sometimes they don’t know enough physics to be able to understand how it works! ... it can be learned but... sometimes it is not worth it!

Have you ever tried to understand how your DVD player works? But I'm sure you know the basic stuff to keep it working!

[US Iceman]

When asked if they knew how this component worked or what it was for they could not tell me.


That's sort of what I'm getting at Paul. Knowing the difference between changing a bad part, from just changing a part(s) until the system starts to react as they think it should react.

If you want to see something really wild that will leave you scratching your head, it's when the system has had so many parts changed it actually starts to work differently, but in line with how the person think it should work.

[US Iceman]

Have you ever tried to understand how your DVD player works?


No. I don't need to. I accept the fact that if I turn it on and the red light shines and the disc tray opens, I'll probably be watching a movie in a few minutes. That's good enough for me. Now, if I were DVD player repair man, then it's a different story.;)

I've worked on some systems that were designed by engineers and it was not a pleasant experience. When you are faced with this situation you need to know what to do and why.

[GXMPLX]

..., if I were DVD player repair man, then it's a different story.

Well no they don’t! They only have a manual that tells them to do certain tests and if the test fails replace one piece and try again.

That’s exactly what this people are used to do but they don’t even have the manual!

They use a method old as mankind: “Trial and error” it’s stupid, slow, costs money, not efficient but works! If it didn’t these people would have lost their jobs long time ago!

And you should be glad they do this because you can make quite a difference! When I have to solve the mess somebody else did, I don’t talk bad of the last guy that was there, he is kind enough to live clues on where the problem is not, and I simply solve the problem and charge more! It’s a win win situation!


I've worked on some systems that were designed by engineers and it was not a pleasant experience.

This is a No-No! Never judge a design unless you know first exactly what are the design objectives! Should it be to discourage the next guy that cames to fix it, they succeeded in their design!

If your boss comes and tells you he wants a line of x units at y cost with z failure rate, and you know in order to do that you can’t install filter dryers, suction accumulators or whatever, the only way you will succeed is comply with objectives. (Perhaps you and I would quit the job because we are willing to lose sometimes or want to be proud of work that lasts!).

If customers are willing to pay for it and you reach your objectives and the product sells like bread then the design won, even if you have to throw it away after the first use!

I know it will be hard for you (us) to take this, but if you want to survive deal with it!


When you are faced with this situation you need to know what to do and why

That’s the spirit! … and [CENSORED]

[winfred.dela]

I've worked on some systems that were designed by engineers and it was not a pleasant experience. When you are faced with this situation you need to know what to do and why.

Most Design Engineers uses the latest design trend (that also makes the system complex) without taking a deep understanding of the end user operation and maintenance capability.

I have seen a lot of very old refrigeration system that are still in operation being run by not so "educated" guys.
The most common attribute is it's simplicity that makes it easy to operate and maintain.

So, as a Design Engineer, the other important question (after all the technical aspects) is who will operate and maintain. We need to value Simplicity in the Design aspect not for savings purposes but also for easy operation and maintenance.


Just few day ago, have read (From TomPeters.com) this one:

09 July 2008

Keep it simple! (Damn it!) No matter how
"sophisticated" the product. If you can't explain it in a
phrase, a page, or to your 14-year-old ... you haven't
got it right yet.

--Tom Peters

:)

[US Iceman]

(Perhaps you and I would quit the job because we are willing to lose sometimes or want to be proud of work that lasts!).


I know I would! I don't design crap and try to sell it to someone just for a dollar/peso/euro, etc.

When I try to do something, I try to do the right thing (not for myself, but for the owner who sometimes does not know what the right thing is:D). I want him/her to call me back for the next job.

Cheap or expensive anyone can do!

*********************************

The hard part is to get it right for a reasonable sum and do what winfred says.... Keep it simple! (damn it!):cool:

If the system is too damn complicated for the people to work on or maintain, that is exactly what will not happen (it won't work or get serviced:rolleyes:).

PS: winfred... I like Tom Peters. He has some really good books and ideas!

[GXMPLX]

Most of them are simple if you have the information.

Big brand names tend to keep it so that their folks do the job.

I just had a Deja Vu, isn't this like a repetitive subject?

[US Iceman]

I just had a Deja Vu, isn't this like a repetitive subject?


Yeah, you could consider this similar to the other thread, however, in this thread what I had hoped to bring out in the discussion was the need we face to change the perceptions used in our industry.

As energy costs continue to increase we cannot continue to do things the same as our mentors used 50 years ago (when energy was cheap). And, when the system designs are performed, will we insist on simplicity, or, will the designs be based on 1950's solutions?