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View Full Version : Need some advice in conservatory air con-heating



deanH
14-07-2008, 10:30 AM
Hi there,stumbled across these forums whilst trying to find out some genuine info on which system i should get for my "about to built" conservatory,and am hoping you guys can help me out.

I want something that will both heat and cool the conservatory,i have looked wide and far on the internet,and so far i have just confused myself.

I gather there are 2 types of system i need to look at:-

1)the thru wall system with no pipes etc
2)the split system

The thru wall seem to be a lot more expensive,and i guess thats because they are d.i.y?

My conny internally is 5.2mtrs long by 2.6 mtrs wide and is north facing,and will have 2 solid brick walls to work from.

For the thru wall systems Initially i looked at the Prem-i-air SW 3.2kw 11000btu (£580),but i am unsure this would be powerful enough?

I then looked at the pmw-18 prem-i-air 5.3 kw 18000btu (£499)

But then i started to have doubts whether or not these would be too noisy?,its a room i intend on using quite often to watch tv etc.

I then started to do my own head in by looking at the split systems,which i gather are quieter?,and seem to be a lot cheaper to buy,although i know i need to have it installed professionally.

The problem i have deciding is,if i went for the thru wall prem sw,would it be too noisy?,and would it cope with the demands of pulling the heat down,and also keeping it warm in the winter?

For the split systems,i havent looked at many to be honest,only the VS 3.6KW 12000btu (seen this for £229),and these appear to be spec'd as being much quieter.


So what do you guys think?
what is the best option?
bearing in mind the following factors

noise levels, this is quite important,dont want to hear it rattling away whilst watching tv

effiency

Heating/cooling capacity

Maintenance levels

Installation costs

Regards
dean

Peter_1
14-07-2008, 07:31 PM
If comfort (noise, no cold drafts, low energy consumption, you mentioned all this..) is important for you - and it was, don't doubt, go for a split and especially for the more well known brands like Daikin, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Fujitsu...
Mitsubishi has splits which can run while you sleep.

I think a 2.5 kW unit is more then enough for you and choose a heatpump.

deanH
14-07-2008, 07:54 PM
thats for the reply peter
and particular model you can recommend?
i.e a link to a unit you may have in mind
kind regards

deanH
14-07-2008, 08:05 PM
and sorry,i for got to mention,i suppose price wise,just for the split system,i am guessing the install will be about £100 -150 (i know someone who might fit it for me),so i dont want to spend anymore than £300-400 tops
dont know if i will get a quality unit for that?

Peter_1
14-07-2008, 08:25 PM
You should count on 1500 Euros :p and I should choose a Mitsubsihi wall inverter unit. Very quite and reliable units.

You will find cheaper Chinese brands but what if something fails?

Price depends on the difficulty of the job and what you eventually can do yourself or helping while installing.

Shining is also not that bad and not so expensive.Warranty can be a problem.

Gapraja
14-07-2008, 08:42 PM
Hi Dean,
With the escalating energy costs my advise would be to opt for an inverter unit. Your initial outlay would put you at the top end of your kit cost but will save you in the long run

sinewave
14-07-2008, 10:06 PM
I'd wap one of these in meself!


£2K fitted depending on lectrix etc.

http://www.mitsubishi-aircon.co.uk/default.asp?url=http://www.mitsubishi-aircon.co.uk/mitsubishi_electric.asp?id=119561

deanH
15-07-2008, 02:00 PM
Hi guys,thanks for the replies so far

Someone has offered a "yama" split system to me,dont know what spec etc,but i cant find anything on the internet about them,which makes me think they are obselete
is this a stay clear situation?,or have i got the brand name wrong?

Argus
15-07-2008, 03:06 PM
.


You've already mentioned a couple of brands that we haven't heard of. I think that Peter was trying to urge you to stay away from cheap imports that are basically dumped on this market at unrealistic prices.
He definitely knows what he's talking about.

The major brands are well established in terms of quality and spares. They may cost more, but you are paying for a better machine.
As with anything else, you get what you pay for and often buying cheap means buying twice.

But may I suggest that you go into this with your eyes open without being mesmerised by the cheapest price.

Whatever unit you go for, it will need an independent electrical supply. Don’t be tempted to run it from a 13 amp socket. The electrical supply installation will need to comply with the Building Regulations and you will need a certificate for it by a qualified person. That's the law in the UK right now.

The refrigerant installer must now be qualified. You can’t just do the pipe work yourself – you are risking a fixed penalty fine.

Alternatively you may fit a one-piece window rattler and put up with the draughts, noise and vibration.

I know what I’d do, but I don’t have a conservatory…….



.

deanH
15-07-2008, 05:16 PM
Thanks for the advice argus,i thought as much when i heard the name yama that it was a steer clear job,was told, the guy is currently installing them in pubs and bars right now,and i suppose my unit would have been one of those,price as a favour was £500 fitted.
As with the electrics,that wont be an issue,as i am having all new consumer units,and have already been told by the sparky the air con,if using a split system,will need its own supply.

I will take peters adviceand get a branded name as suggested,I dont mind spending a little extra,i just need a few pointers in which model No' to go for.

thanks for all your replies so far,they have been very helpful in convincing me in what i need.

deanH
15-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Is this system worth a look guys?
Mitsubishi model SRK40HG-S
seen it for £395 delivered

frank
15-07-2008, 08:18 PM
I'll sell you one of these (http://www.hitachiaircon.com/argws/category.do?action=getCategories&rangeId=1) for £370 and install it for £??

Send me a PM or e-mail

The ones I have in stock are rated at 3.5kW

deanH
15-07-2008, 08:40 PM
Hi frank
I looked at the link (thanks),but dont know exactly what i am looking at,as it had various pictures,and no complete systems to view if you know what i mean

I dont know how to send message via PM either buddy

frank
16-07-2008, 08:39 PM
Click on the link and scroll down to the Summit wall mounted fan coil.

Full system, Heating and cooling, 3.5kW, inverter compressor, R410A refrigerant

What more can I say???

To send me a Pm you need 15 posts or more - sorry, I didn't look at your post total.

Click on my name and view my profile, then download my VB Card which contains my e-mail contact details.

deanH
16-07-2008, 10:19 PM
Sorry frank
I cant find anywhere on your profile where i can download the VB card?

R1976
17-07-2008, 08:13 AM
Hi

I'm local to you and can fit you a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system for £950 plus vat

The General
17-07-2008, 10:50 AM
Hi Dean,

If the sun doesn't hit the roof of the conservatory then you will probably just get away with a 3.5kW unit. If the sun hits the roof at any time during the day I would strongly recommend you use a 4.5 or 5.0kW unit. Don't use a Chinese product and be careful of some Korean products as they can spend half there operating time in defrost during the heating cycle. An inverter unit is a must in a conservatory because of the rapid temperature swing. Also if you can afford it go for a low level unit and not a wall unit to avoid cold draughts. My recommendation is the Fujitsu AGYV or the Hitachi Summit RAF.

Regards

Gordon

sinewave
17-07-2008, 07:00 PM
Hi

I'm local to you and can fit you a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system for £950 plus vat


:rolleyes:


We'll all be out of business at those prices! :eek:

deanH
17-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Hi

I'm local to you and can fit you a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system for £950 plus vat

wow,there is no way i am paying that much for a aircon system,950+vat is best part of a £1000,having said that,i dont know how much a mitsubishi 3.5 kW inverter system costs to be honest?if it was going to cost me that much for a half decent system,its something i would give a miss on.

maybe the idea in my mind of what these things cost to install is way off what installers are charging?
I estimate a full install would take no longer than a days work,as mine would be a pretty standard,easy install.
There is no complicated run of pipework fitment i can foresee,the separate power supply would already be in place,and i guess then its a case of install/test/commission?
Like i say,i dont know whats involved,but i'd have a good guess i cant be far off the mark.
Maybe i need to look at other options,as in my mind i was looking at paying £300-500 for a split system,and on top of that,had a guess a installment fees of around the £150-200 mark

You guys must be making some decent money :)

maybe i am in the wrong trade.:)

frank
17-07-2008, 09:01 PM
£150 - £200 for a days work is way too low.

We as a Company currently charge out £320/day for an engineer, and this is due for a review, given the rising costs of transport.

To supply and install a small system we would not be charging less that £1500 - (as a business) - more if I could get it.

If someone was offering to supply and install a mitsi system for £950 I would recommend that you 'snap his hand off' (an English saying for those of you not resident in the UK)

I've just had a 'Microsoft' qualified engineer (what ever that means) in to sort out some software upgrades in the office - apparently (he told me) the going rate for this level of software engineer is £66/hour.

For what mess he has left, I think he is way under qualified and way toooooo expensive.

When you consider that we carry over £4000 worth of tools on the van and he turned up in his jeans, I think we charge a much more reasonable amount of money :confused:

Seems some people want to reward learning and experience with the least amount of hard cash.

Tell me again - why did I spend soooo many years training and learning????

Have a look here (http://fridgetech.com/rates/) if you think this is expensive

deanH
17-07-2008, 09:19 PM
Hmm
didnt think the costs were so much, surely frank that refrigration engineers working for a company dont earn that much money?,maybe if they are self employed i could believe it
But like you say frank,that price is as a business. where i work,we charge our printing presses at over £250 per hour,as all the overheads are taken into account
i was thinking more along the lines of someone doing a little moon lighting,

maybe i need to look at alternative methods,and look at the self install systems you can buy off the shelf,as i cant afford that sort of outlay :(

stevo
19-07-2008, 06:50 PM
Hmm
didnt think the costs were so much, surely frank that refrigration engineers working for a company dont earn that much money?,maybe if they are self employed i could believe it
But like you say frank,that price is as a business. where i work,we charge our printing presses at over £250 per hour,as all the overheads are taken into account
i was thinking more along the lines of someone doing a little moon lighting,

maybe i need to look at alternative methods,and look at the self install systems you can buy off the shelf,as i cant afford that sort of outlay :(

You need to wake up ! you are asking to heat & cool a conservatory for under 1k !!.. why don't you DIY and see how easy it is ! If you want cheap you are heading for trouble ! seen it all before, & "WHEN" it all goes tits up, you will have to ask a properly trained enginner to sort it out ! CAP IN HAND ! :( Go for the Yama it has probably got a decent yamaha engine in it :p or if you want really cheap use one of these !
http://www.bluefishpromo.com/index.cfm/business/Products.Details/product_id/4397/?gad=CMTQ-uYCEgi_SLrA2oqGuxikovX6AyC8i58Z&gkw=Personal+Fan :rolleyes:

Peter_1
19-07-2008, 07:10 PM
refrigration engineers working for a company dont earn that much money?,maybe if they are self employed i could believe it(

You're approaching this not correctly: surely the employer doesn't earn that money and surely this is the price the company has to charge.

From the price the company is asking you, insurance for their employer must be paid, social insurance if existing must be paid for the employer, taxes on the wage and the profit on the materials must be paid to the state, the tools to do the job must be paid, the van must be paid, the insurance for the van must be paid, the fuel must be paid, the certification for the company must be paid, the certification of the technician must be paid, the annual holiday days must be paid from this wage, ...

You understand now why so many small companies went bankrupt the first half-year in Belgium? It is the highest rate ever.
And it will not be different in the UK.

Peter_1
19-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Oh, I forgot that from that wage, the 'non-chargeable' wages must also be compensated/paid.
Not chargeable wages for me: work that has to be done under warranty which rarely is paid back by the manufacturer, going on site to measure everything, make a quote in the company, go to the customer to explain your offer, go back a second time after some modifications, finally loose the job because they found someone cheaper, courses the employer and the company has to follow to be update, .....
All work that must be done unpaid to be sure that the employer get paid for every minute he's in the company.

Peter_1
19-07-2008, 07:34 PM
Superswill started another thread which confirms somehow what I said.
I say to those who thinks that we all earn big money: why are you then so stupid not to start you own business?
We earn good money, mostly because we work 60 hours a week, taking sometimes risks, big risks,...

Karl Hofmann
20-07-2008, 12:33 AM
:rolleyes:


We'll all be out of business at those prices! :eek:


Have you not seen the back of my van? :D


Dean, at the price R1976 quoted, he is making a wage, not a fortune..

Peter_1
20-07-2008, 09:00 AM
MrCooling MAgic, I understand what you're saying but if that is Dean's choice, then we have to respect this.

If he wants to drive with a BMW and doesn't want to spent or hasn't not the money to buy a new one, then he always can bey a second-hand car.
I have also a BMW bike, but bought it second hand for several reasons although I could afford a new one.

That's choices you make and you know the consequences of it.

Anyhow, he will use his AC not that much, it is only while watching television and even then only in hot summer days.
If it consumes then a little bit more power, then he can run it many years before he gets to the price of a decent unit.

We're in a changing market, globalization they call it sometimes...
Dean wants an AC and he has different choices to do this.
He asked us for advice and we gave it him as technicians, how we see it.
But then, you have the market with good machines and let's say, not that '100% machines' but performing well to very good for most applications.

On the other hand, he said what he thought without harming someone. I liked that he didn't ended the discussion. I like open minds.

And anyhow he has somehow a valid point, he must pay almost a 2 month wages for a small airconditioning which he will rarely use.
I can understand his point of view and I hope Dean will buy a decent unit - whether it will be a well known brand or a ChinChangChong - and that he may have luck with hit.
You even can have troubles with a Daikin.
I only can add that he better let it install by a competent technician, and if it's a friend working in a AC company, well the better for our environment. This man will do it the proper way for a cheap price.

I personally think that the cheap goods will always be there and we will have to learn live with it.
But don't worry, this will change anyhow in a global market.
Fuel prices are sky-rocketing (2.45 USD/l fuel or 9.27 USD/USGallon in Belgium) and this will led to increasing transport costs for large volume and cheap goods. I read an article that this can be the end of cheap China toys: a toy is mostly very cheap but takes a lot of volume.
On the long term, only qualitative toys will remain.

multisync
20-07-2008, 05:34 PM
Let him try getting his BMW serviced for less than £75.00 ph !!

Refrigeration & a.c engineers get paid as much as a garage mechanic have a higher 'running cost' (Van Mobile etc etc) yet the going rate is nowhere near theirs.

To post a competitor's rates as a way of justifying yours appears somewhat weak... I suggest we should all be pushing the rates up not down..

My employers rates are currently £40.00 and he doesn't live in some huge mansion I can tell you!!

Multisync
London

Peter_1
20-07-2008, 06:22 PM
Multisync, I totally agree with you but the worser the market is going, the lower the prices are going also.
especially like we see here in our country where many one-man companies are starting because they all think they can make big money.
They're responsible for the low prices and working alone, they can work at a cheaper rate.

fridge doctor
20-07-2008, 06:36 PM
Dean, give it up mate, if you think you can get a decent job done for anything less than a grand then you're a fool. This gear costs money, and our professional time and experience is worth much more. Get yourself a fan and suffer. :mad:

multisync
20-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Multisync, I totally agree with you but the worser the market is going, the lower the prices are going also.
especially like we see here in our country where many one-man companies are starting because they all think they can make big money.
They're responsible for the low prices and working alone, they can work at a cheaper rate.

We could all see this thread turning into a Dutch auction and it's mid summer-not a good sign.:eek:

Indeed the Uk has 'suffered' from this with the added 'bonus' of many imported engineers. -Why some are even have safe handling (but that's another story)

The next few years will see many of those O.M.B's disapearing- both local labour returing to the security of a big company and the imports heading off back..

As mentioned on other parts the tightening of legistlation will see the market returing stronger with enforced restrictions. Sadly we have years of pain to go through before that particular Nirvana.

The 'who's slow' thread may well be the tip of the iceberg

Multisync
London

philfridge
20-07-2008, 08:58 PM
Maybe i need to look at other options,as in my mind i was looking at paying £300-500 for a split system,and on top of that,had a guess a installment fees of around the £150-200 mark






You could buy the system dean but the cost of the system is not the problem. Its getting it installed which is the real cost involved , I guess you do not understand the work or skills involved to do this job. Nobody will install your own system anyway as you are cutting their profits and for the £150 -200 it is not worth it im afraid you have no chance.

Makeit go Right
22-07-2008, 09:23 AM
Well, this is a useful lesson to us all.

The customer says I want aircon and we fly into what he needs for that application and give him a pucker quote for a suitable inverter system with photos and all the info, and he says "How much??"

Particularly in the domestic area, one has to ask, "What kind of sum are you thinking of paying for the aircon?" He says £500 all in, and then you know he's not talking about a custom installed split system.....he is talking about 1-2 Portables, or maybe a supply-only thro-wall jobbie, or possibly a DIY klunk-click split. All of which are not our zone.

Politely direct him to B&Q etc and get back to what you were doing before.

In a year or so, if he goes for thro-wall/portable(s), he will develop into someone who wants proper aircon and will have a sensible budget. Costs him more this way but he has to travel this path, normally. Then you can talk aircon with him and get going with a proper quote.

deanH
23-07-2008, 07:38 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys,much appreciated
And for those that i guess didnt understand my position,i never really did say that install prices are a rip off
I merely stated,that i wouldnt want to pay that much ,and thus i would take a different route
I had no idea what these cost,hence the reason i came onto this forum asking for professional advice so i knew in my mind what i was dealing with,before i rang for some quotes and knew what to expect
If my budget allowed for a decent system,then thats the choice i would have made.
In my own mind,i was hoping i could buy a half decent split system for £400 or so,and then get it installed,possibly by someone doing a job on the side for about £200 tops
we all know this happens,people working for firms doing a little moonlighting.
I am hoping to speak to a family friend who fits these for a living also,as he is now back from spain from a six week trip.
I wil let you know how i get on with the quote

multisync
23-07-2008, 03:24 PM
Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Multisync
London

Peter_1
23-07-2008, 05:04 PM
Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Is this threatening? I think we may not try to be more holy than the Pope, everybody is searching for his profits and it's not up to us in this forum to judge this.

deanH
23-07-2008, 05:27 PM
Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Multisync
London


Company details?
Now why on earth would you want those?,I dont own my own company,nor have i said i own my own company
so why would i be dodging the taxman?
If you are saying you have never done a job for cash,or avoided paying tax on goods in whatever capacity,then i'd guess you must work for the church and be a truly holy man.
If you wish to threaten me,then just come right and say it,I'd gladly welcome you to come around my house,and i'd give the details face to face,and then maybe we would see if you were so quick to judge.
You can PM if you so wish,and we can exchange details


I dont want this thread to turn into something that it isnt as most of the information has been very helpful,and opened my eyes into air-conditioning,and the costs involved which i sadly over-judged.

So the moderators can gladly close it on my behalf

Peter_1
23-07-2008, 05:32 PM
Multisync, although English is not my language, you went a little bit too far, your comment had nothing to do with the subject at all.

Daddy Cool
23-07-2008, 08:02 PM
I think Makeit Go Right hit the nail on the head. We know what's reasonable and what's not as we do it everyday, but domestic end users don't have a clue what's expensive and whats not. Don't mis-understand me, i find it frustrating and try to avoid domestic jobs for this very reason, they cost too much of my time for too little return.

frank
23-07-2008, 08:56 PM
Moonlighting eh? for cash eh?

Hmm I wonder if the old tax man is aware of your cavalier attitude towards the taxation system in the Uk?

Please let us know your company details as I am sure he would like to be made aware of this.

Multisync
London
It's not illegal for someone to employ a tradesperson and pay them cash.

What would be illegal is for that tradesperson not to declare the cash payment on their end of year tax return.

Dean

I hope that you manage to get your install for a relatively small sum. One point of caution - make sure that the installer is qualified otherwise it may cost you a lot more than you think in the long run.

deanH
23-07-2008, 09:14 PM
Thanks frank
I spoke to the engineer today,he is still in spain and is due to return on thursday
I cant see him charging me a great deal,and it will be interesting to know what he has to say
I will keep all posted in the outcome
Many thanks for all the advice and help,of which without,i would never have decided on what to do and which system to go for.
A decent split system is the only way forward,and if i cant afford it,then i will go without.
NO sense in installing a half **** applaince as in the long it may or wont pay off is the conclusion i have come to.

frank
23-07-2008, 09:21 PM
Dean

Keep your eye peeled at B&Q. They were promoting the self install Air....... something or other split system, and a friend of mine purchased 2 of them a while back.

He's a Controls expert but he managed to install these himself in his home as they come with pre-charged lines. He says that since install ( over 2 years) he hasn't had any problems and he's very happy.
Just thinking that B&Q are not pushing these anymore but they are still for sale and may be sold off cheap as 'End of Lines' - especially as we are having crap summers for the past couple of years. :D

p_p
24-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Its a good job he hasn't had a problem frank as the back up doesn't exist.
I personaly would not promote such rubbish, have you seen some of the diy installs on your travells they can only get the industry a bad name.
Maybe we could start a site where enginneers can post photos of diy installs that they see on there travells.

Regards

PP

Peter_1
24-07-2008, 01:17 PM
p-p you can post these photo's here on RE, 'Trail of Tears' section.
Since many years, you have to take in account that you will have two different markets: the well known brands with high efficiency but not as cheap as these units you can take of the shelves in a DIY shop.
Each has his own public and as a technician, you must choose the brands which stands behind the techs.
But how long will it take before well known brands will be sold in DIY shops? I saw already many brands in the DIY shops here in Belgium, some well known by everybody.

frank
24-07-2008, 08:58 PM
Its a good job he hasn't had a problem frank as the back up doesn't exist.
I personaly would not promote such rubbish, have you seen some of the diy installs on your travells they can only get the industry a bad name.
Maybe we could start a site where enginneers can post photos of diy installs that they see on there travells.

Regards

PP
I agree p_p but Dean hasn't got the funds available for a proper install.
At least with pre-charged lines he can fit it himself and save the £150 install costs he was looking to pay

Peter_1
24-07-2008, 09:39 PM
And he will have what he needs: a fresh room and that's all what counts.

Rhew
24-07-2008, 11:06 PM
The next few years will see many of those O.M.B's disapearing- both local labour returing to the security of a big company and the imports heading off back..
Ive been a O.M.B for over a quater of a century, so looking foreward to be getting the security,holidays,sick scheme,somebody else to cover etc, when I get taken on by a big company

superswill
25-07-2008, 12:22 AM
what a great thread,Ive enjoyed this one from a far but now my 10p worth is coming

OK so we all know cant do these jobs on the cheap if your after a quality product and it being install correctly (duty,functions ect ect) i agree maybe they is a space for these DIY monsters in providing a little comfort cooling or heating but certainly not in commercial properties and surly not conservatories

but as dean said he wasn't expecting to pay anyway near what we in the trade would class as "the norm"
in the publics eye are we just seen as top it up and wipe it down men? have all these DIY systems on the market sold use as tradesmen sort? does every think i hung my door i can do the same with a split?

no-one bats an eye lid when they call a plumber,boiler man or spark out and pay they fees,why not us?

is it these DIY splits? or is it as an industry in the UK we are miles and have always been behind other trades in laws and qualifications (yes F gas is coming but hasn't it been for the last ten years!)?

just another superswill put the world to rights post

Karl Hofmann
25-07-2008, 12:49 AM
no-one bats an eye lid when they call a plumber,boiler man or spark out and pay they fees,why not us?


Trust me, they winge like **** at having to pay for a gas man and they will do everything that they can to avoid having to call us out.. Sometimes they ar only found out when the TOFOs have changed their meter and capped their gas supply off due to leaks found.

Gas men have the same problem when the customer has been to B&Q, seen a £399 combi and then wonder why my quote is so high to fit a Worcester or a Vaillant.

Seen plenty of DIY boiler installs, hobs not fitted correctly and flueless gas fires with no ventillation and churning out Carbon Monoxide.. Many supplied by the big sheds or the internet, so I would guess that the other trades have the same problem too..

I would suggest that domestic ac work is totally different to industrial ac work and so it is difficult to price a domestic job using industrial rates...

deanH
25-07-2008, 10:08 AM
Just an update guys,spoke to the fitter,and he quoted me £150 to fit
All i have to do is sort the unit and double check with him its the correct split system.
Price includes full install,and mounting the fan unit on a set concrete slab with polystyrene (he said this is better to avoid excess noise and vibration)

He also said to avoid DC invertor models as he said they actually dont cost any less to run,and the claim of using say 1kw in and producing 3kw out isnt exactly true

deanH
25-07-2008, 10:19 AM
I also forgot guys
What do you lot make of "york air-con" units?
He told me to ring a trade company,and they suggested a york 3.5kw cooling/3.5 kw heating with 12000btu for 305+vat

Karl Hofmann
25-07-2008, 01:55 PM
Just an update guys,spoke to the fitter,and he quoted me £150 to fit
All i have to do is sort the unit and double check with him its the correct split system.
Price includes full install,and mounting the fan unit on a set concrete slab with polystyrene (he said this is better to avoid excess noise and vibration)

He also said to avoid DC invertor models as he said they actually dont cost any less to run,and the claim of using say 1kw in and producing 3kw out isnt exactly true


Then I would say that he is probably worth the money that you are paying..

deanH
25-07-2008, 02:44 PM
Karl
He normally works on big industrial units mainly at airports alike etc
From what i understand he normally earns in excess of double what he is charging ,but he is a family friend doing me a favour i guess
he said it would only take half a days fitting as the position of the pipework and drainage pipe couldnt be more better placed.

Makeit go Right
25-07-2008, 03:29 PM
"he said it would only take half a day's fitting."

So, presumably there's not going to be much time wasted on a pressure test and a decent vac-out, if he's going to crash the thing in in just 4 hours.

And, if he does not know about the 1kw in and 3kw out principle of heat pumps, nor the reasons for better energy consumption from inverters, not to say anything about a non-inverter's impact on the TV etc (flicking each time it starts up) well, £150 is about right for that kind of installation. You get what you pay for.

Also, Deal, as you are to be an Operator, of an Air-Conditioning system containing an F-gas...........

Since July 2007, the new EU F-Gas Regulations require Operators (end-users) of
air-conditioning systems to ensure that only engineers that have obtained the legal minimum certification be engaged to carry out any tasks involving handling of the
F-Gas refrigerants (eg R407c and R410a). This would include all new installations, and the maintenance, repair, or disposal of all existing air-conditioning systems.

Statutory Instrument SI2008/41 lists out the current legal minimum certification required to be held by engineers assigned to handle the refrigerants covered by the
F-Gas Regulation. The certificates are: “City & Guilds 2078 HANDLING REFRIGERANTS ASSESSMENT” or an approved and current “REFRIGERATION HANDLING ASSESSMENT” by the CITB. Operators are legally required to only use engineers that hold one of these certificates.



Suggest you check his certificates are in order before he gets his tools out, just in case he is lacking this legal requirement (being placed on your shoulders).

deanH
25-07-2008, 04:55 PM
I dont mean to sound rude to anyone but the fitter is a very experienced engineer,and i did say he was doing it as a favour to me and i am sure he has all the needed paperwork,otherwise i wouldnt have asked him,and i guess he wouldnt be allowed to work at the major airports either.
Its correct he said it would only take half a days fitting,and you have wrongly assumed he works a 8 hour day.
I never did say anything about him testing the system,I only said he will take him half a day to fit it.
he will test it afterwards he has said.
In respect to the dc invertors,i have spoken to a york air con distributor,and i put to him the pro's/cons with the dc invertors,and he said you most likely gain a saving of no more than 10-15% in energy costs against a fixed speed unit.
I can see some are trying to justify why some charge over £500+ for a residential install,but i am not prepared to pay that amount.
If anyone wishes to come and inspect the install to see what a mess he has made,they are more than welcome (I dont mean to sound sarcastic,but i must defend the guy in his absence as i know he is more than capable of doing the job)

I didnt know about the "tv" flicking everytime the unit starts so i am glad you pointed that out,so thats something i will put to him,and see if i can stretch to a DC invertor unit

Its all about budget and what i am prepared to pay and the end of the day.
Just because i am not employing a company with massive overheads doesnt mean i am getting a second rate job.
No one here can assume that without actually knowing the engineer in question.

Prince Vaillant
25-07-2008, 05:35 PM
Try a VAILLANT V11-025 W CLIMAVAIR PRO 2.5KW FIXED SPEED WALL MOUNT or a racs09 Diy Air Conditioning Unit 3.5kw Heating and Cooling.

deanH
25-07-2008, 06:18 PM
Try a VAILLANT V11-025 W CLIMAVAIR PRO 2.5KW FIXED SPEED WALL MOUNT or a racs09 Diy Air Conditioning Unit 3.5kw Heating and Cooling.

I did look at vailant air con units,i have a boiler made by them and it is very reliable
I looked at the prices and they seen very reasonable
Might even beable to stretch to a DC unit
I seen the VAH 6-035 NW for £417 and the VAHE 039 NW for £528 which are both DC
Seems they are new to the u.k market,so i dont know how good they are or what warranty they come with?

The more i look at though,the more i get confused.
I would love to have a top unit,along with being DC,its just the price thats hampering me
It might be a case of waiting a few more weeks and save a little more to stretch that little bit further in terms of price

Brian_UK
26-07-2008, 12:26 AM
Nice to see this thread churning along but it is beginning to get a little heated chaps. :(

Poor Dean only wants to get his conservatory heated or cooled for the minimum amount and with as little trouble as possible.

Be honest now, we all want that when we have to pay for it ourselves. :)

Also, as has been said above, there are rules and regulations coming into play but I expect Dean will have sold his house and moved on before it has any impact on the domestic market.

I'm with Karl on the CORGI comments and perhaps as the domestic market increases things will change.

However I think that we should relax a little bit and not high-jack Dean's thread for an anti-privateer rant.

For my two-pennys worth I would try for an inverter Dean if only to give you a quieter system; as well as the softer start.

Thanks all, Brian

Peter_1
26-07-2008, 05:16 PM
"he said it would only take half a day's fitting."

So, presumably there's not going to be much time wasted on a pressure test and a decent vac-out, if he's going to crash the thing in in just 4 hours.

And, if he does not know about the 1kw in and 3kw out principle of heat pumps, nor the reasons for better energy consumption from inverters, not to say anything about a non-inverter's impact on the TV etc (flicking each time it starts up) well, £150 is about right for that kind of installation. You get what you pay for.

Also, Deal, as you are to be an Operator, of an Air-Conditioning system containing an F-gas...........

Since July 2007, the new EU F-Gas Regulations require Operators (end-users) of air-conditioning systems to ensure that only engineers that have obtained the legal minimum certification be engaged to carry out any tasks involving handling of the F-Gas refrigerants (eg R407c and R410a). This would include all new installations, and the maintenance, repair, or disposal of all existing air-conditioning systems.


Pressure testing and vac-out (only 2 tot 4 meters tubes of 1/4 an 3/8, done while connecting electricity and drinking a beer) can perfectly be done in a 4 hours install.
Leak check has to be done only on 4 connections.
We've installed Thursday a wall unit, lines through the roof, drain to existing point, power already available in 4 hours with 2 man.
We've done in the past 3 (easy) installs/day and Chemi did once a similar job which went even faster.


Is there already the possibility to take the necessary exams/test to be UK certified (personal and company certification)?
I thought that the UK wasn't ready yet.

Peter_1
26-07-2008, 06:40 PM
That's why we ask our price - 40 €/ hours + transport time + transport costs at high fuel price + additional items (brackets, condensate pumps) and all with a reasonable margin on it) and if it's too expensive, well, then they have to search for another one who can do it cheaper.

And they will find that other one, especially amongst the techs who are working for a company and can do this of course for a much smaller rate in the black circuit.
You can't avoid this and this is the nowadays market.

I always refuse to install anything another one gives me.
Even it's a socket, a fuse, an AC, a compressor, ...
This should something basic for every self-respecting tech but you will always find techs who really needs the job.

Like another posted said: I try to figure out what price the customer has in his head. If it's not a fair price, then I even don't give a quote for it.
I even refuse to give a quote when I hear that some of my 'bargain competitors' are giving also a quote.
Like said in another thread: Daikin "A" installed by company X is not the same as Daikin "A" installed by company Y.

I also refuse to install monobloc units for the same reason.

Don't forget also the well known manufacturing companies, offering direct to the end-user. In the AC box is a voucher 'good for 1 basic install'
The installer then gets paid +/- 400 Euros all included (power source, ducts, install, some small margin on the AC, warranty..) from the manufacturer and the installer must give also 1 year warranty.

I understand you and agree with you but you can be mad for this practices or turn your back to it. I'm turning my back and I concentrate me on the jobs where I can add some personal, additional value, sold to customers who it done properly and who wants also service afterwards.
I'm no longer concentrating my business on this market of small splits for very common domestic applications.

Realize that this DIY market is a growing market in every field: heating, plumbing, refrigeration, ...

And I understand also perfectly the end-users who're looking for a cheap solution of a small problem. And this solution exists.

We normally work here around 40 €/hour, industrial guys (NH3) working at 50 or 60 €/hour
I had a colleague working on NH3 at 30 €/hour. You could imagine that he could work 7 days a week/24 hours/day.
We're living in a free market.

Perhaps some fragmented thoughts but I hope you understand what I mean.

Makeit go Right
28-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Leak check has to be done only on 4 connections.

Presumably you are testing for gas leaks after you let the gas go into the new pipework/system, and using soapy water on the flares, yes?

All you are testing that way is the standing pressure (possibly the working pressure if you switch on) of the system And possibly not the max working pressure of the system, as it fluctuates.

Soapy water on the flares may be a useful test for gas leaks on a system that has been previously installed and running, but it is not an adequate pressure test for a new system installation.

What I mean by a proper pressure test is a test with nitrogen to an appropriate test pressure for that system. And ideally you would leave it there over night, though 4hours would be useful (while you complete all the other bits and have your lunch/beer).

Peter_1
28-07-2008, 12:27 PM
No, you may not charge refrigerant as long as you didn't perform a leak and pressure test according to EN378.

If I should have refrigerant on the lines, then I don't use soap but my D-Tek.
Testing with gas is not allowed.
Okay, let's say it otherwise, in 5', I have my bottle of nitrogen at the outdoor unit. I also have lines to my manifold of 5 m (15 ft) and 10 m (30ft)
After 2 minutes it's pressurized at 40 bar and use some soap and i don't look to the result.

In the meantime, connect electricity, load my van, clean the workplace inside and outside, bring the vac unit to the outdoor unit, ...All this takes 30 minutes and in the meantime, a Iregulary look if I don't see bubbles.

Nobody says it has to be done for 4 hours or a whole night.
This is economically not feasible.

If you made your own flares or soldering, then you know yourself and your work.
Most small installs even don't need a pressure test.

If my pressure is still 40 bar, I start the vac-out after releasing then nitrogen.

jelecto
29-07-2008, 02:45 AM
hi. i m not english speaking. and i will do my best 4 help u.
the split system is really better, and more quite, due to the compressor are out side, and also they make it now vry efficiente.
also it is very easy to install and if you propous your self you can make it. without any help.
best regards javier

stevo
29-07-2008, 05:31 AM
http://http://blog.nbc.com/ross_blog/TV%20omg.jpg

deanH
23-08-2008, 09:08 AM
Hi guys,not posted here for a while
Not actually bought an air conditioning unit yet,as my cash flow had to be directed towards other things
the conservatory is being built as we speak though,so all being well cash flow wise,i will be dipping into the market for an DC invertor unit.
I was about to spend around the £700 mark,until i seen this offer at B&Q
Seems a very good sale price for a DC invertor set up
what do you guys think,....the information on it is a little thin
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9376868&fh_view_size=6&fh_eds=%3f&fh_sort_order=-1&fh_sort_by=_price_rrp_min&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB%2fcategories%3c%7b10096%7d%2fcategories%3c%7b10098%7d&fh_refview=lister&ts=1219478514499&isSearch=false

The Viking
23-08-2008, 11:54 AM
Good luck, all the best and all that..

deanH
23-08-2008, 12:20 PM
bought the airforce invertor system for £294,12,000btu coolingcapacity with 3.9kw heat output
the price was to good to miss for an invertor,and its a easy d.i.y install so the tech guy at airforce tells me (not sure he knew what he was talking about to be honest,so he may be wrong),if he's right,i will install it myself
be o.k for we need i guess,and for the price of a decent invertor with a brand name,i could have bought 3 of these
The guy at airforce supplies couldnt believe b&q were selling them at this price,poor summer i guess is the cause for that...so it was a nice tip to the previous poster who told me to keep an "eye" on the website.

thanks for all your help guys