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gwapa
05-07-2008, 04:07 AM
Dear Friends
I would like to hear your expirence dealing with the advantages or disavantages to have the steal structure inside the cold room or to have the steal structure outside de cold room.
As you perfectly know you can build a warehouse with the steal struture inside and it suport the celing of the warehouse. Other way is locate the warehouse inside the steal structure and you have to hang the celing panels .

But there are a lot of details that you have to overcome when you locate the structure inside

What are your opnion for both way
Regards
Gwapa

winfred.dela
05-07-2008, 04:55 AM
Dear Friends
I would like to hear your expirence dealing with the advantages or disavantages to have the steal structure inside the cold room or to have the steal structure outside de cold room.

Early this year, have finished an 800 Sq.M. floor area Corn Seed Storage with steel structure inside the cold room.
We promised the customer a 4 months completion including site development and civil works.

Advantage: Fast construction

This includes importation of:
1. Roof insulated panels from Izopoli, Turkey. (3 months delivery)
2. Alfa Laval Refrigeration Units. (2 months delivery)

Disadvantages: Possible humidity & condensation problems.
Seed storage needs temperature and humidity controls.
Contractor needs to be very particular on the thermal bridging, isolation of the structure and sealing.

The completion time is tight but it's worth the effort.

I have not yet build a below zero celcius cold room with this methodology. Am not yet sure if the advantages can outweigh the disadvantages.

Hope somebody have build one and share the expertise.



As you perfectly know you can build a warehouse with Gwapa


Of course, it would be nice to build another one with you . . .

:)

smpsmp45
05-07-2008, 06:19 AM
The other issue is the isolation of the column base. you need to put in High density PU slabs in the column base to insulate. If you are planning to have facility as BRC certified, then inside structure is ruled out.
The ceiling leaks is a major problem & you need to use special membrane to cover up the entire ceiling area.

In India, except one project, all others are out structure.

winfred.dela
05-07-2008, 11:49 AM
The other issue is the isolation of the column base. you need to put in High density PU slabs in the column base to insulate.


Maybe, wrapping all the column with insulated panel can do the trick. Have seen storage rooms with cladded column to solve the thermal bridging.

Is there a low temp cold room with inside structure in India? Is the facility still in operation?

Thanks.

:)

Josip
05-07-2008, 09:03 PM
Hi, all :)

Install both types ... but easier is with out structure .... nowadays systems for hanging of ceiling panels are good .... just installed one CO2 ice cream cold store of about 7500 cubic meters working at -28C... with span of 24 meters... of course if you build smaller rooms you do not need any hanging .... a lot of solutions to be discussed ;)


Is there a low temp cold room with inside structure in India? Is the facility still in operation?

... in India you have a new facility two story (instant coffee -freeze drying plant) working at -55C .... partially with internal and outside structure due to project request ..... internal columns are with electrical heaters, floors and ceilings too ... special solutions all around ... all available .....

Best regards, Josip :)

smpsmp45
06-07-2008, 06:06 AM
Yes the facility with outside structure is working for last four years now. At the time of installation there were few issues. The ceiling leaks was a major one. They had to import some special plastic form USA to cover up the entire ceiling.

But that facilty is definitely not for Exports to Europe as it can not pass the norms of installations for EU markets.

Yes Coffee plant was also done that way but it was a small facility compared to one I am talking about.

Even on the Coffee plant installation was very very difficult due to the slabs & structure.

Peter_1
06-07-2008, 08:19 AM
I personally should never install a freezer with inside columns. Avoiding cold bridges is then very difficult.

When installing outside, everything must be very good galvanized and installing racks inside is also easier.

We always install an additional roof over the panels and never use the bare steel panels as a roof.

Josip
06-07-2008, 08:41 AM
Hi, smpsmp45 :)


Yes the facility with outside structure is working for last four years now. At the time of installation there were few issues. The ceiling leaks was a major one. They had to import some special plastic form USA to cover up the entire ceiling.

But that facilty is definitely not for Exports to Europe as it can not pass the norms of installations for EU markets.

Yes Coffee plant was also done that way but it was a small facility compared to one I am talking about.

Even on the Coffee plant installation was very very difficult due to the slabs & structure.

.... I have to disagree a little with you ;) ... leaks you had due to improper installation (IMHO) .... had the same ... had to repair a lot with another team and extra material .... disaster...

..... your norms of installations should be even more strengthen and must be able to export the goods in any part of the world (problem could be within processing lines ... ISO)

..... and the size has nothing with quality... it is good or bad ..... yes, it is true with huge projects there are more problems..... but the task is the same .... stop the leak...

..... at the end I believe all problems we faced or not are due to good project design, good materials and technology and partly of installation team ... all above is from my own experience ....

.... one more very important problem is .... each owner/investor is trying to cut the costs as much as possible ... very often giving the job to the company with the cheapest offer - which finally turns to the most expensive disaster .... but you know that;)


Best regards, Josip :)

Andy
06-07-2008, 12:53 PM
I personally should never install a freezer with inside columns. Avoiding cold bridges is then very difficult.

When installing outside, everything must be very good galvanized and installing racks inside is also easier.

We always install an additional roof over the panels and never use the bare steel panels as a roof.

Hello Peter:)

I am currently installing a freezer with internal columns.
This is an existing ambient warehouse, huge area. We are installing a chill room (suitable to be used as a freezer at a later date, heater mat ect) and a freezer room, covering a floor area of about 35m square.
The columns have been boxed in, this I will be checking myself before the freezer starts up, the heater mat is cut out around the columns and the panels extend to subfloor level, with the metal cut off the bottom of the panels to stop cold bridging.

I'm comtemplating adding some heat to the support column (these things are huge 1000mm by 450mm), but it would have to be substantial to make any differance.

What advise would you give:)

Kind Regards Andy :)

Peter_1
06-07-2008, 05:28 PM
This is an existing ambient warehouse....a chill room (suitable to be used as a freezer at a later date, heater mat ect) and a freezer room, covering a floor area of about 35m square.
The columns have been boxed in.....heater mat is cut out around the columns ...panels extend to subfloor level, with the metal cut off the bottom of the panels to stop cold bridging.
I'm comtemplating adding some heat to the support column (these things are huge 1000mm by 450mm), but it would have to be substantial to make any differance.


Like you described, I don't see any problem.
Fact you could box in the columns and you will cut the sheet metal away from the bottom of the panel is avoiding as much as possible cold bridges.

I'm thinking loud on the following but I can be wrong: the boxed space around the column (behind the freezer panel) will become at freezing temperature after some time and the steel column will then act as a very good and massive conductor. There's a lot of steel surface in this boxed column, so a 'lot of cold can be absorbed'
Is there then not a change that the heatermat will not be strong enough to compensate the cold flowing downwards the underfloor?

It's of course not such a big freezer (35sqm) but why not tie a heater mat around the column - just the lower part of it perhaps 3 ft - and adding a thermostat between this space which starts heating when it is necessary and only at night?
Or install now only a retractable cheap probe like an Eliwell at the basement of the column so that you can monitor the column foot over some time?
Eventually connected to an alarm thermostat.

Problem is that you can't find anything about this in literature, you have to learn it all yourself.

Andy
06-07-2008, 06:29 PM
Like you described, I don't see any problem.
Fact you could box in the columns and you will cut the sheet metal away from the bottom of the panel is avoiding as much as possible cold bridges.

I'm thinking loud on the following but I can be wrong: the boxed space around the column (behind the freezer panel) will become at freezing temperature after some time and the steel column will then act as a very good and massive conductor. There's a lot of steel surface in this boxed column, so a 'lot of cold can be absorbed'
Is there then not a change that the heatermat will not be strong enough to compensate the cold flowing downwards the underfloor?

It's of course not such a big freezer (35sqm) but why not tie a heater mat around the column - just the lower part of it perhaps 3 ft - and adding a thermostat between this space which starts heating when it is necessary and only at night?
Or install now only a retractable cheap probe like an Eliwell at the basement of the column so that you can monitor the column foot over some time?
Eventually connected to an alarm thermostat.

Problem is that you can't find anything about this in literature, you have to learn it all yourself.

Yes I'm thinking that we need something at the base of the columns, probably a heater, or possibly a fan for forced air ventilation, controlled on a thermostat.

I haven't worked out exactly what I'm going to do but I will take a look at the installation (columns are boxed in already).

Thanks for your help.

Kind Regards Andy:)

US Iceman
06-07-2008, 10:22 PM
I'm thinking loud on the following but I can be wrong: the boxed space around the column (behind the freezer panel) will become at freezing temperature after some time and the steel column will then act as a very good and massive conductor. There's a lot of steel surface in this boxed column, so a 'lot of cold can be absorbed'


I would agree with this comment. Eventually the column will reach the same temperature as the cold store, so you have not solved the problem, only changed when it will happen. Even if the steel is insulated (same principle as boxing it in) the problem will appear.

I would think it is less expensive to install the thermal break under the columns and place the steel inside of the structure.

Andy
06-07-2008, 10:41 PM
I would agree with this comment. Eventually the column will reach the same temperature as the cold store, so you have not solved the problem, only changed when it will happen. Even if the steel is insulated (same principle as boxing it in) the problem will appear.

I would think it is less expensive to install the thermal break under the columns and place the steel inside of the structure.

A thermal break is probably not an option at this stage, the beams are years in place and the insulation is boxed in around them.
Besides the beams are huge, with the weight of two buildings on them (they hold the heart of the building up where the new side meets the older building.

Also to add to this the whole area below the building is reclaimed ground, piled or most likely rafted on filling. Indeed the subfloor that we are building on is a slab on beam floor construction.

Would ventilation work to keep the tempearture up, the cold store is in an ambient warehouse that is slighty heated in the winter time.


Kind Regards Andy:)

Peter_1
06-07-2008, 10:48 PM
Fact that the columns are already isolated, you simply can insert a probe through the wall and monitor its temperature.
Don't you have the possibility to blow in some air, eventually a little bit preheated in the box from the ceiling and exhaust it via a hole as low as possible but to the outside, the other side of the freezing room?

I know that a company here in Belgium only blows outside air through channels underneath the floor only in summertimes. Well they did it in the past, I don't know if they're still doing it this way.

I have installed some smaller freezer rooms with heater mats and they're controlled by a thermostat which postpone the demand to heating during cheaper night rates. (the thermostat only triggers a timer in the PLC) Most have never worked since many years and the soil stabilizes around 6C (6K above freezing temperature)

As you know, everything depends on the type of soil, country where you live in , outside conditions, size of the freezer,..

I wrote an article about this in a Belgium magazine ( in Dutch) which followed on a judicial case I had where the soil froze up the floor for +/- 50 to 60 cm (+/- 1.7 to 2 feet)
The bolts of the metal structure felt on the ground.

When writing this article, I found very little literature about this, so most was based on my own experience.
Which says that my experience is not the only way to approach this. We all learn by the faults and test made by others.

Peter_1
06-07-2008, 10:50 PM
Our posts crossed each other, you were thinking on the same, ventilation.
Perhaps it's all not necessary but I shouldn't take the risk of trying without some additional heating.

Andy
06-07-2008, 10:59 PM
Our posts crossed each other, you were thinking on the same, ventilation.
Perhaps it's all not necessary but I shouldn't take the risk of trying without some additional heating.

Hello Peter:)

yes I'm thinking of heated air at the moment.

We have a very expensive heater mat under the floor, with high desity insulation on top (perhaps less insulation than I would like, to ensure a decent floor to ceiling height in the room).
Besides the floor is concrete slabs, which are suspended above the ground.

I will try and get some photos of the columns.

Kind Regards Andy :)

US Iceman
07-07-2008, 12:34 AM
Ventilation is probably the only reasonable thing that could be done now Andy. I think the method Peter mentioned is about as practical as could be expected. I doubt it would take much heat as you only have to heat the columns above the dew point temperature of the air in the cold spaces.

smpsmp45
07-07-2008, 06:51 AM
Hi Josip,

What you say is right ofcourse. A lot depends upon the installation procedures. But in India there is one more point on availability of various items. Even the Column isolation was a big problem & finally it was settled with High density rubber blocks. They took almost 3 months for delivery. The roofing membrane was also imported from USA as no equal was available then in India. Installing that took lots of efforts & various issues were to be tackled at that time. You can imagine the extra angles popping out on the top of the truss members etc.

monkey spanners
07-07-2008, 12:13 PM
Andy,

Could you loop the liquid line down between the columb and the insulation panels? Or run it through a small 'condenser' to preheat the air if you use ventilation? For free heating and some subcooling, less any pipline losses.

Peter_1
07-07-2008, 01:02 PM
Monkeyspanners, good idea energy-wise but a little bit too expensive I think. I suppose Andy has some columns to do and possible this solution doesn't add enough heat to do the job properly.
But I like such ideas because they confirms that some truly understand the basics of our job and use their mind to find energy saving solutions.
I'm sure that this should work fine.

Personally, I should just blow outside air in the box, only thinking about the moisture you also add which probably will condens on the column.

Is natural ventilation not possible, connecting the upper part of the box through the roof and making a hole on the lower outside part of the box? Just some wild ideas.

winfred.dela
07-07-2008, 01:41 PM
Is natural ventilation not possible, connecting the upper part of the box through the roof and making a hole on the lower outside part of the box? Just some wild ideas.

How about using the idea we (in the tropics) apply for cold rooms base slab: a perforated pipe with gravel bedding?

Higher temp ambient air will travel to a colder space. We just need to find the cost effective way to do it without using expensive energy.

:)

gwapa
10-07-2008, 02:33 PM
Dear friends
Thanks for your very kind thought
Let me post mine
I personally think that the estructure inside the panel could be a little cheaper that outside. However for an inside estructure you have to keep and observe so many details as you have posted.
Those "details" ,where the devil is ,could destroy a low temp. wharehouse in few month if are not made carefully.
The points we have to care:

The roof
The floor and the base column

The roof should be sloped in order the rain water drain freely.You could do this using block of polystyrene
It should be hermetic. You should use an especial cover to evoid water getting in.Of course the cover shuold soport UV ray and solar heat.
Also should soport the snow weight and should be elastic to soport the delta T change.

All the freezer should have the soil heated but it is a nice chalenger to soport the estructure .You should use insoleted block located under the steal base and also use heat mat to keep heated the transfer union
As all the estructure is inside it is not necesary to cover or boxing the columns.

Finally the exterior wall panels will be expose to the ray sun it make the superficial temp rise until xxC . This diferential could make bubble to the panel.

This are some thing you have to observe when you have the inside estructure which could be solve making the estructure outside even it is expensive


Best regards
Gwapa