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blackheathbaggy
24-06-2008, 11:47 PM
Not sure if i'm posting this on the right part of the forum but here goes.
I don't have a gas handling cert dispite doing the job for 3 years and repeatidly asking my employer when i'm going to be put through it, to no avail. (i know of at least 5 other of our employees who have none or out of date certs).
Now i'm aware of the penalties for working while not having one and no longer want to risk the fine, but how do I get my employer to do his legal right and put myself though it without getting people into trouble and risk losing my job (or at least making my life at work unbarable)?
Also after being put through your gas handling is the certificate your own or does the employer own it? 'm asking this because I know of at least 2 times when my employer has refused to forwadr the cert after people have left.

Argus
25-06-2008, 10:08 AM
.


Let’s do the easy bit first.

Either the CITB or the C&G 2078 certificates are now mandatory by law if you handle refrigerants of any type. (that is connect gauge equipment and add or remove refrigerant to any system).
This applies to using either F Gas, (any of the HFCs or blends containing at least one HFC) or ODS, (which includes any of the CFCs that are now banned or HCFCs, i.e. R22).
In short, you must have it to work legally – no question.

The penalties (fines etc.) are in the relevant UK laws and enforcement is with the relevant local authority environmental officers.

Who does it belong to?
Answer: It belongs and applies to you, if it has your name and picture on it, regardless of who supplies it. Missing or withheld certificates may be replaced by the issuer, but you must contact them. They are not transferable.
You should be able to provide proof when asked – in other words the card bearing your picture and name should be in your wallet, not your employer’s files.

Who has to pays for it?
Exactly who has to pay for it or provide it in the event of direct employment is not really defined clearly as far as I can see, (though Abe may know a bit more about this from a point of view of employment law. Any ideas, Abe?).
If you are self employed or a sub-contractor, it’s down to you.
Your employer must have qualified staff if you are on his payroll, so there’s an expectation on him to give you the wherewithal to do the job.

I'd say the onus is on him..... especially if he wants to stay in business.

Alternatively, you could get another job with an employer with a more enlightened attitude. Provided that you can absorb the information and pass through the assesment, a few hundred quid for a working technician on the road is not expensive in this day and age.

.


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Abe
25-06-2008, 10:51 PM
.

Who has to pays for it?
Exactly who has to pay for it or provide it in the event of direct employment is not really defined clearly as far as I

.

I am not aware of any legislation or precedent on liability to pay for training, however I can assume that its the employer who pays, or can come to some agreement with the employee.

Where the employer pays, to safeguard his investment can impose some covenant on the contract of employment where the employee has to remain in the employ of them for some specified period.

blackheathbaggy
25-06-2008, 11:00 PM
Thanks Argus I was thinking along the same lines myself. Looks like i'll be moving on soon. Grieves me that a company such as I work for who earns £Millions a year can't be bothered to put the employees through the proper certificates.

Pooh
25-06-2008, 11:21 PM
Blackheathbaggy
why not name and shame as they are definately breaking the law and as of 4th July 2008 they will be contravening the FGas regulations as well by employing engineers who under the terms of that legislation are not qualified. This will eventually lead to prosecution and trust me the people responsible for policing the new law will be looking for a big name to make an example of.
The other point is that if they put you through the existing refrigerant handling qualification at a cost of about £300-00 it will last until 4th July 2011 if they leave it until February next year they will have to put you through the new 2079 qualification at an underterminded cost but we can be assured it will be a lot more than £300-00 plus four days off work.

Ian

Argus
26-06-2008, 08:49 AM
................... if they put you through the existing refrigerant handling qualification at a cost of about £300-00 it will last until 4th July 2011 if they leave it until February next year they will have to put you through the new 2079 qualification at an underterminded cost but we can be assured it will be a lot more than £300-00 plus four days off work.

Ian



Thanks Ian,


Whistle-blowing may not be a sensible option for Baggy at the minute, as he has to work and eat, but it's food for thought..... so to speak.

I'd move on if I were you Baggy, and get that Safe Handling cert ASAP - even if you have to pay for it yourself.

Ian,

What's the planning on the new 2079. Did anything emerge from that meeting at C&G?


.

philfridge
26-06-2008, 03:50 PM
Hi had the same thing at my last company where they refused to put people on the safe handling course saying its not mandontary.I think they were scared we would leave and so they didnt want us to be employable at other companies asking for safe handling certificate. Eventually they sent us on the 1 day course then we left with the certificates soon after to spite them :D

WaterholeWally
01-07-2008, 11:35 PM
It should come as no surprise that lunacy is a requirement for management positions in many companies, in most countries.

I, too, once worked for a company that would rather have ignorant, incorrigible employees than well-trained, happy ones. Making training funds available is wise on all fronts. Encouraging the workers to earn their education benefits is a method of grooming future supervisors with dedicated and thoughtful attitudes. Of course, the trend now is to indoctrinate the world into the "socialist, welfare-wagon, the-gov-will-pay-for-it" thinking.

Sorry for the long winded, but I hope that I offended someone...

blackheathbaggy
04-07-2008, 08:23 PM
Got myself another job lined up and as soon as i get my starting date then i'm gonna be making a call or two to make sure things get put right at my current firm, who do I get in touch with as i'm unsure who actually 'governs' the refrigeration business.

nevgee
05-07-2008, 06:35 PM
[ who do I get in touch with as i'm unsure who actually 'governs' the refrigeration business.[/quote]

City and Guilds launches new F Gas qualification!

Centres attend briefing day on 3.6.08

A City and Guilds launch and briefing event was held for current and prospective training centres on the 3rd June in London. The event gave an overview of the new F-Gas regulations, content of the new 2079 suite of qualifications and detailed the process for centres to apply to offer the new qualifications.
City & Guilds has developed the new qualification in association with ACRIB to help refrigeration engineers meet new legal new legal requirements in relation to F Gas Regulations. The existing City & Guilds 2078 Handling Refrigerants qualification meets the current legal minimum requirement to handle refrigerants and is likely to enable individuals to continue to practice until July 2011 before achievement of the new 2079 F-Gas qualification becomes mandatory for all individuals working with F-Gas.
What will change?
The qualification is likely to be entitled the City & Guilds Level 2 Award in F Gas and ODS Regulations. There will be four different versions of the qualification to reflect the different work activities that relate to F Gas. These are:

Category l – covers service, maintenance, installation, commissioning and leak checking of stationary RAC equipment
Category ll – covers activities on equipment with a charge of less than 3kg (6kg if hermetically sealed and labelled)
Category lll – recovery activity
Category lV – leak checking
Most engineers will require a Category l certificate, which will cover the activities assessed in all the other categories (e.g. if you successfully obtain the category I qualification you would not need to obtain category IV as well if you were undertaking leak checking). Each qualification will require candidates to achieve both a theory and practical assessment. Assessment of the practical will be undertaken on a standard equipment rig.
The practical test will assess subject areas such as:

Brazing pipe jointing as used to install components
Pressure testing
Refrigerant charging
Inspecting for leaks, rectifying and re-checking
Connecting and disconnecting gauges
Refrigerant recovery
The theoretical assessment will cover subject areas such as:

Basic thermodynamics
Basic refrigeration cycle
Identifying condition and state of refrigerant
Determining operating conditions and efficiency
Monitoring system performance for indications of refrigerant leakage
Understanding of environmental impact of F gases
Knowledge of equipment record keeping requirements
Knowledge of key components and associated risk of leakage
All training centres and colleges will have to apply for a new approval for the 2079 qualification to City & Guilds on their website at www.cityandguilds.com (http://www.cityandguilds.com/) (enter term search - 2079).
It is expected that the first public courses for engineers will begin around September this year.




http://www.ior.org.uk/ior_/images/pdf/SM%20f%20gas%20training%2012.pdf

raz5
06-07-2008, 01:54 PM
My company were only to pleased to send me on my safe handling and welding and braising once i mentioned it . Its a national multimil company and there attitude is if its needed you do it ..

Gave me a nice 10 day breather at a trainig unit :D

yinmorrison
07-07-2008, 11:40 PM
Ok Guys, how many of you out there have deliberately allowed a gas escape from a system? Answer , probably less than 1%. Unless you get a Poll to say otherwise!.So guess what, someone decides that there are a lot of 'cowboys' out there and all of a sudden we are all faced with additional rules and regulations in order to create another level of bureaucracy whereby the Government can enhance employment figures and collect revenue.Job creation is not an answer to our problems only another level of Taxation.Just imagine that you have installed a, say Mitsi City Multi and tested as per spec and someone ( IT cable installer for example ) dislodges a 1/4 liquid line from the BC Controller which is a flared connection and the system loses 35Kg refrigerant. what was the point in it all!
I personally have found that in the last year I now have not only got to pay my registration with REFCOM but also pay SEPA to issue me with a Refrigerant Carrier Certificate which has shot up in price but lasts 3 years( whoopy doo ). ( SEPA being Scottish Environmental Protection Agency )
I have no problem with Training at all and welcome it but it really pisses me off when the Government can have a take on it and make hay while the sun shines, when what they should really be doing is building Nuclear Power stations that will fuel everything and negate the problems we have with fuel supplies and even drive our vehicles.
Maybe this would do away with the problems of road accidents and eventaully we will get used to the idea.
Otherwise maybe I should set up a Training Organisation as it seems the only way to make any money!!!!!

multisync
21-10-2008, 05:25 PM
I was chatting to an old boy in CC this morning about this very subject. He said his company is now stating that he must comply or else

I asked him what he meant by or else and he said that because he'd mentioned he was thinking about retiring the company was refusing to pay/credit crunch etc etc .
However he didn't want to spend the £400 to get it done himself. So he's scared he will be sacked as he's not legal to carry out the work he's employed to.

Does he have right to refuse to pay or do the legal requirement C&G training
Can he 'force' his employer to pay
Can he be sacked if he hasn't got the safe handling cert
If he is sacked can he get constructive dismissal

I took his mobile and said I'll ask around..so I'm asking ;-)

Multisync
London

nevgee
21-10-2008, 11:43 PM
Seems there are Cowboy employers who should be roped in and dealt with:mad:. I wonder if your mate's employer is just doing the hard talk and threatening him in the hope he'll comply with their wishes. It's always a very sticky wicket when those sort of threats come down on you but I'll bet if he sticks his ground they'll back off. They're responsible for their operation and duty of care etc, it's up to the business to ensure the staff are suitably trained for the job. They can't sack him he hasn't refused to go on the course ... just the tight wads don't want to invest. He should wait and see how it developes then cough "tribunal" at his boss, I'll bet he backs off real quick.:D

multisync
23-10-2008, 08:21 PM
Defra ponders aircon/refrigeration register

by Ben Hall23 Oct 2008

A mandatory personal registration scheme for those working in air conditioning and refrigeration is in the balance as officials at the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) weigh up the level of support.

Industry representatives were told at a stakeholder meeting last Friday that Defra officials were still analysing the 90 responses from the recently-completed consultation on F-gas regulations.

Feedback from that consultation will be used to decide on the scope of a new company registration scheme; whether another consultation should be launched; or whether an individual registration scheme should be introduced.

Mike Nankivell, chairman of the F-gas implementation group at the Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Industry Board, (Acrib) said: “An individual registration scheme is not a requirement under the European F-gas regulations.

"Defra is not yet convinced that an individual register is necessary, but they have accepted it could be useful for enforcing compliance.

"It has agreed that, if the consultation process indicates a sufficient amount of demand for an individual registration scheme, they will undertake a new consultation.”

Scott Gleed, contract manager at Ceilite, said: “Surely a central system already operated by Acrib would seem the sensible way forward.

“If people aren’t on a register, the system is open to fraud. It needs to be third-party accredited, without this, clients and the Government have no assurance that the industry is adhering to the law.”

He said effective measures were needed to ensure the EU did not introduce “more stringent legislation” or threaten the use of HFCs.

He said: “Without an appropriate steer from industry, I believe we will find ourselves subject to a series of bureaucratic, ineffective and impractical solutions.”