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Dave Goodings
20-09-2003, 09:03 PM
What are peoples views on the use of vehicle trackers as fitted to service vehicles? what are your experiences of them? mainly UK companies?

Latte
20-09-2003, 10:00 PM
AS far as i a concerned they are a good thing. The only enginners that i have found not to like them are one's with somthing to hide.
Trackers make life easier for companies to see where you are. for instance when our engineers are on call the office will first thing in the morning chack to see what time you got home. if you were late in they will not ring you early in case you are having a lay in.
Also it means you don't keep getting the "Where are you" phonecalls. Trackers can also prove where you have been. I spend a lot of time on the London Orbital carpark (M25), If my jobsheet reads 2 Hour journey time from Stevenage to Watford it could be assumed i was off doing somthing i shouldn't (PJ) with the tracker it proves i was sitting in traffic.
Trackers also help companies lower insurance costs.
Engineers don't like change, Trackers more and more are becoming standard on vans, get used to them !!!

Reeferjon
22-09-2003, 08:39 AM
Iheard a 'tit-bit' that all semi's in the UK must be fitted with trackers by 2005, any truth in it.

Gary
22-09-2003, 09:12 AM
I think there are some people who might resent being under constant surveillance. This doesn't necessarily mean they have something to hide. One of the advantages to being in the trade is the illusion of relative independence and responsibility.

And who watches the watchers? Some contractors bear watching. Should there be a government agency which places all contractors under a microscope? Maybe each should be assigned a bureaucrat who follows them around all day. The only ones who will object are those with something to hide.

Dave Goodings
22-09-2003, 11:00 PM
I agree with you Gary it does seem a bit too much like Big Brother and if companies use them what next? why bother with time sheets just log people from one job to the next

Latte
22-09-2003, 11:43 PM
Hello Dave,
Hate to tell you this but that is the next step forward.
Already available is an electronic palmtop which is like the ones Parcel delivery drivers have (This is the best explanation i can think of) which you use instead of jobsheets. These will have all the same info on them as a jobsheet does, jobs completed, parts used etc but then all you have to do instead of hoarding lots of paperwork & sending it back to the office all you do is put the palmtop into the socket in your'e van & it automaticly sends it straight back to head office via the tracker. I know the company i work for is looking into it & is in fairly advanced stages of implimenting. BIG BROTHER IS OUT THERE but then again if engineers are doing the job right what do we have to worry about.

Gary
23-09-2003, 01:57 AM
We agree with the rules, so we don't object to big brother peeking over our shoulder.

Then comes the new rules.

FreezerGeezer
23-09-2003, 08:24 AM
Personally, I resent the implication that I'm lying to my boss, so have to be watched like a damn toddler all the time. I like the idea of digital worksheets, and everything downloading to base at the press of a button, however - as long as that's all it is. No more lost paperwork, and an automatically created & updated history of all the plant you've worked on - great!

Latte
23-09-2003, 03:49 PM
Hello FreezerGeezer,
I dont think the idea is to on the whole be big brother.
As we all know 99.9% of engineers are honest, but the tracking system could be used if companies have a suspition about the 0.1% engineer.
I dont think any company has time to have somebody in the office checking the trackers all day long, I personally belive & hope they are just there 1) for insurance purposes & 2) Just to help keep track of where the enginners are & where to best deploy them to.

Just by looking at a map, your'e company can see where everybody is and who is closest to a callout

Reeferjon
23-09-2003, 06:19 PM
In Germany, they are in the process of fitting tracking/monitoring kit to all HGV vehicles using the AutoBarn.
This will allow them to calculate the distance that vehicle has traveled on AB, as a spin off data will then be sold to the companys about how the vehicle is performing and driven, costs/rollockings can be handed out or adjusted accordingly.

Dave Goodings
23-09-2003, 07:42 PM
I think the digital timesheets are a good idea also all manuals and drawings on a data base/laptop is the way forward still not convinced on the trackers though I have heard that some customers ask for them I dont know if this is true or just a line!! Are these used in the states what with civil liberties etc!!!.

FreezerGeezer
23-09-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by rdocwra
Hello FreezerGeezer,
I dont think the idea is to on the whole be big brother.
As we all know 99.9% of engineers are honest, but the tracking system could be used if companies have a suspition about the 0.1% engineer.
I dont think any company has time to have somebody in the office checking the trackers all day long, I personally belive & hope they are just there 1) for insurance purposes & 2) Just to help keep track of where the enginners are & where to best deploy them to.

Just by looking at a map, your'e company can see where everybody is and who is closest to a callout

Hi Rdocwra
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.
I see no reason why I should be treated like a cheat, because someone else is a cheat. I detest the whole idea of 'big brother' as a 'free' man. What the hell happened to innocent until proven guilty??!! :mad: Admittedly in your scenario, the boss can justify the use, but only if it is never used to track the honest guys.
As for knowing where you are, since deployers give you the job, they bloody well should know where you are anyway, or they're not doing their job properly. The system of using a PDA for doing your paperwork on would let the deployer know you'd received the job, and then once you've got the customer's signiature on it, and pressed the 'send' button, the deployer knows the minute the job's done. I don't see that they need to track you any more than that, if they can read a map. :rolleyes:
Adding a digital camera would also enable tech's to show the office / parts dept. / factory exactly what they are talking about. It's amazing how often a photo or two can get a point across, when a whole essay on your worksheet can't! :D
I know Webram's old company were just rolling out such a system when they sold off their service arm. I'd love to get a copy of the software to show my boss - no more 'can you send us your worksheet again, we've lost it' from the office. The ability to dial into the office server & read the entire life history of the machine you're working on, including the original design & commissioning data. Technical information available on the same server. Now that's a good use of modern technology!

andrewuk
23-09-2003, 10:16 PM
you got it freezergeezer ,we want technology that helps us ,yes in some cases it can show up someone being dodgey, however that should only be a by product of the technologies actual daily use.not it's actual intended design.

Latte
25-09-2003, 07:26 PM
Hello All,
Hopefully if used correctly the tracking system will be more of a help than a hinderance. No longer will i have to go from Cambridge to Watford only to find there was already an engineer in the area.
At the end of the day, Trackers like Air con, ABS,Airbags will be standard equipment so we had better get used to them they are here to stay

baker
26-09-2003, 08:08 AM
Years ago, a friend who owned a long distance freight company went to considerable expense to have a custom GPS reporting system designed for him. He did this because he could not get his drivers to accurately tell him where they were. They would ring through and say that they were where they thought they should have been, not where they were. He could rarely get them to tell him the truth. In other respects they were honest and trustworthy.

Some of my coworkers always lie about when they will be somewhere, for no good reason. It is just a habit and they cannot help themselves. I will hear them tell someone on the phone that they are leaving straight away, and then they will sit down for lunch. Again, they are honest and trustworthy in other respects.

I don't understand why people do this, but I can see why management want to install tracking systems.

whiffnsniff
07-08-2004, 06:16 PM
A lot of these companies don't realise that by installing these trackers they have to obey the data protection act.
Since if you use the company vehicle for private use, the system should only be used by i.e your service manager or transprot manager. Anyone else who views this for fun is accessing your personal details, this is an infringement of the DPA and could land companies in trouble.

Anyone know the frequency these things transmit at. I used to have a circuit diagram for an rf device which totally screws up radio transmissions in the near vicinity.( used to use them on foul mouths on cb many years ago )
Find out the frequency the tracker works on and it should be easy to build a transmitter on that freaquency to transmit white noise.
I can't imagine the transmitters use high wattage. If they transmit using 4 watts then just throw a 20 watt transmitter in at the same frequency.
You don't damage the unit and when the engineer comes out he won't find any fault. Very strange


;)

chillyhamster
07-08-2004, 06:34 PM
find the antenna, wrap some copper wire around it and the zap it with a push button megger. The induced current should pop the transmit transistors. remove all evidence and act all innocent.

Peter_1
07-08-2004, 06:50 PM
I doubt that they may not install a tracker system.
If it's a company van and the tech is driving with the van for the company, then they have - I think - the right to do this.

And if you find that they can't do this, then this is because you're doin things that may not see the daylight.
If you do what you have to do, then they may trace you allways, everywhere and anywhere.

A Belgium company made a systeem where they can trace you in a radius of +/- 300 ft only with your mobilephone.
You don't need any transmitter for this system.
As far as I read the news in the newspaper here, they're the first who did this.
They use the receiving antennas for this.

Leo1967
08-08-2004, 08:02 AM
I'm just horrified to learn about these trackers!!!Why on earth should companies check their staff every second?The trust between company and worker goes down the drain!Here in Italy we have strict privacy laws and there's no way they would allow such things.Even filming workers with cameras (cctv)isn't allowed!
To start with i just couldn't see the need for such devices,if i'm asked where i am or if i've finished the job,i fail to see what could be gained by lieing!
I think companies should treat their engineers fairly and keep them happy,that's the best way to have honest hard working people!if they installed a tracker on my van i feel i would have the right to install a camera in the administration offices,just to make sure everyone is working as hard as i am,or better,that nobody is cheating on my time table!how would they like that?
On the other hand loads of jobs were lost here(or never created)for these privacy laws.I often go to a farmaceutical company,the inventors of Viagra,they intended to install cameras in the production lines for security reasons,the trade unions wouldn't have it and that's why Viagra is made in France and not Italy!
I just thought something else.......whoever agrees the tracker is a good idea.......what would you think if your wives wanted to install one to see where you are?it's a bad thing when honesty is questioned!!!

rbartlett
08-08-2004, 09:37 AM
the tracker issue is hot patato but it's not going away..

all vehicles used for business purposes that are owned by the company will be fitted with trackers within 5-10 years.

this is something the engineer/sales rep etc will have to get 'over'

forget all this 'I'm a free sprit' nonsense. you're not -you're a paid employee nothing more nothing less.

it's a harsh ecomic climate at the moment -cost cutting is the name of the game and trackers is part of achieving this..

used correctly it's one of the most useful tools available to a modern forward thinking business...

however-
I loved the 99.9% are honest -what a complete load of b.....cks

99.9% (I'm being kind here) are bent in some way or other
nicking a foot off every 3m length of copper for the 'christmas fund'...... fitting a t.stat 'off the van' in you're grans fridge..... topping up the cellar cooler in your local using company refrigerant..... fiddling extra hours on the time sheets...... nicking some fruit out of a customers coldroom as you walk by.....selling company tools to mates for cash...fiddling private mileage....the list of things is endless..

(this is an engineers list -for office workers read 'anything not screwed down in the office' )

jeezus some guy's think managers/ office bods were born yesterday.

however the responsibility to tracker is a two-way street. used wisely it will help both the engineer convince the service manager he really IS stuck on the M25 and the service manager you really AR'NT stuck on the M25

it will force both sides to be more honest -" you have go to be in oxford by 3.00pm" and you're sitting in newcastle at noon

for over time tracker data will not allow you to speed or the service manager to allow you to speed nor actively encourage you to either...

it's give and take both ways-it's just when the balance is uneven that grievances arise (from either side....)

cheers

richard

p.s mobile phone tracker is available in the UK for about £1-5.00 per month

http://www.traceamobile.com/

Leo1967
08-08-2004, 10:28 AM
I see your point but i still think cost cutting isn't achieved by harassing staff!In England i once spoke to a consultant for Marks and Spencers(to non British it's a supermarket chain)and he told me that uniforms are made without pockets,that's to avoid staff stealing goods.....it all sounds like companies are just penny pinching........i mean do they think all citizens should go to prison and in order to save them all they should be controlled?
Technicians are the ones who make money in a company,everybody else is paied with money earned by techs and if someone "steals"a few grams of refrigerant well.......big deal!that's part of the equation and anyway a tracker wont prevent that.
Cost cutting is achieved when big Mercs are returned to the car dealer,when project managers fly economy and reps have a limit to their "business dinners" a foot or two of copper will not turn the boss to Bill Gates, considering that decency commands that he should pay for the xmas dinner anyway.
The sad fact is that in England everyone wants to manage other people,there's thirst for power.If they don't trust someone they should be more careful when they employ a tech.

rbartlett
08-08-2004, 12:03 PM
this makes it a more interesting thread..

we now have gone from 'trackers' to 'stealing is okay' stealing is not 'okay 'perks of the job is stealing whatever which way you cut it...it may be tollerated but it is stealing

trackers were not meant to stop stealing refrigerant (unless it's on company time of course) but it does stop 'stealing' company time..and this is the real crux..basically engineers want to be able to lie when it suits them and bosses would rather this didn't happen..

without being po-faced about it..become a 'boss' employ 6+ engineers and sit back and watch the bs flowing out of their mouths..it'll shock you what tosh they expect you to believe..

techs are the ones at the coal face but what about the sales guy who got the job in the first place? he got the purchase order with xxx thousand pounds written on it...not you..is he the one 'making' the money or you?

one company exc taking a business class rather than economy may not be taking as much as 50 engineers stealing refrigerant every now and again..

there is such a 'them and us' attitude and it seems to be worse from the engineers rather than the managers..

cheers

richard

jan behnke
08-08-2004, 12:29 PM
Hi I had the original tracker fitted to my service van over ten years ago it was a lorry tachograph it was there to check on our overtime, but when we had them fitted our OT went up, and they could not understand why, until I told them that we are all keeping to the speed limits as now we have a hard copy in the van just incase we get stopped by the police and get dune for speeding. They did not stay long

chemi-cool
08-08-2004, 02:59 PM
Hi Guys.

Trackers mean to me one and only one thing - your company doe's not trust you!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

And Richard, Leo said "stealing" but what he actually mean is that some times when there is a chance to make a few quids on the side, on a Sunday afternoon, really no big deal.
No tech will do more then fixing his friend fridge or AC.

We are not talking 50gk R-404 + two large condenser fans.

The people who work in a meat factory go to buy meat at the local butcher? I doubt it.

Its all taken into consideration when a company takes an employee to work.

Chemi :)

whiffnsniff
08-08-2004, 03:03 PM
Play by their rules - have the tracker fitted,
Stick to every speed limit, take your time and watch the o/t go through the roof and when the new working time directive kicks in - what's the option?
Get rid of the trackers and use existing staff - go back to the old ways.
Keep the trackers - take on more staff - more vehicles - more trackers - more paperwork - more expence = less profit. i.e no managers golf days any more - or they get played on the local municipal with a ham sarny and coffee for lunch

:D :D :D

chemi-cool
08-08-2004, 03:11 PM
At the end, most good techs will have their oun business.
The service will be better and the prices lower and the profits - higher.

What I make in three months over here, takes industry worker two years!!!!!!

And I'm a one man show+a dog,

I do not have enough time to do all the work so I hire companies to do some jobs for me. The trick is that they dont get paid untill I have the time to check the work and approve it.

No tracker mate, no good - no pay.

Chemi :)

whiffnsniff
08-08-2004, 03:17 PM
My sentiments exactly.

Work for yourself - get a reliable customer base and enjoy your working life.

Anyway - don't worry about trackers. You can kick up all the stink you want and It'll do you no good especially when the government bring in the 'chip in the dashboard'. If you own a company car - these records will be available from the government.
I wonder if the tracker companies realise that their little goldmine will dissappear in a few years time.

rbartlett
08-08-2004, 03:26 PM
Hi Guys.

Trackers mean to me one and only one thing - your company doe's not trust you!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

And Richard, Leo said "stealing" but what he actually mean is that some times when there is a chance to make a few quids on the side, on a Sunday afternoon, really no big deal.
No tech will do more then fixing his friend fridge or AC.
Chemi :)



so basically what you are saying is 'trust me I'm a thief'

what ever way you try to dress up your behaviour in order to ease your conscience taking ANYTHING from an employer without prior knowledge or authority is STEALING which makes you a THIEF..no ifs or buts A THIEF

so really being a thief is 'no big deal' ?-well i beg to differ..

basically you want to be able to steal from your employer when it suits you but still want that same employer to 'trust you' ...

i don't know..maybe it's me thinking trust goes both ways....


cheers

richard

Leo1967
08-08-2004, 04:53 PM
Rbartlett......you got it wrong,i never ever took a single fisher hook without permission!i'm not a thief and although i'm a tech i'm a team leader,i'm responsible for the work of several other collegues but there's no way i would assume they were stealing.In the company i'm working for everyone is made feel responsible,important and trustworthy,nobody lies and everyone works for the well being of the company!i reckon that by having an USSR attitude torwards staff it works exactly the opposite!
And by the way,a collegue is off sick now and they asked me if i could postpone my holidays(was supposed to be on a sunny beach by now)and without blinking i accepted as i know we have a lot of important jobs to finish.last month i did 64 hours overtime,here it's illegal but i still did it and the company takes that to account if i asked for a couple of metres of pipe to install a unit in my lounge.As you see it works both ways.
And how about the image the company puts forward?how do you expect a customer to trust your techs if you don't trust them???In Rome we have contracts with various ministeries,military and other important businesses,i was issued a certificate for matters covered by the secrecy act,i could go inside any Nato base,well all of that trust from our customers would end if a "precious indispensible world saving tracker"would be installed in my van!
And by the way,we are allowed private mileage and private mobile calls and it's not a question of "us and them"it's the company as a whole.
I wouldn't expected to be flexible torwards the job if the company wasn't flexible torwards me and with this i don't mean i'm going to steal everithing at reach!most techs even have the keys for the warehouse and i can assure you nothing disappears!

Leo

chemi-cool
08-08-2004, 07:01 PM
Hi Richard.

Leo is right. There is a lot of Gray between black and white.

Haven't you ever been a service engineer?

Never ever took anything from your employer?

I found it hard to believe because in your strict theory even a 1/4 nut that you have given someone as help, is stealing from your employer.

Now, we all are humans and when we see a tenner on the pavement, first we put our foot over it and then we look around to see if no one is after the money and if not, we put it in the pocket.

How would you call that? Yes I know you will bring it to the closest police station. :D

Please, think again and see for yourself that techs are not thieves, but the core of any refrigeration or Ac company and all the others such as office workers, warehouse workers and lets not forget m a n a g m e n t, all are living of the techs work!!

Chemi

gosully
04-07-2005, 03:08 PM
We have the trackers fitted, and from a logistical standpoint they are a fantastic advantage. Also as a lot of our work is in London, we are able to disprove fraudulant congestion charge penalties!!

tait71
16-04-2007, 08:58 PM
I work for a company which has trackers installed, i dont mind the fact that people know where i am and where i have been but i dont like the way the computer can give an over speed report which can be used against you in the event of an accident, on that note most of the engineers have slowed down and the amount of calls done per day has dropped. There has been a large fridge company which has taken the trackers off the vans for this reason ( no names given) but i do think they are here to stay and not just in the refrigeration industry

Abe
16-04-2007, 09:20 PM
One of the " perks" of a mobile job is being able to nip into a roadside cafe and have a coffee and a smoke.

With a tracker you have beady eyes monitoring your every move.

Would you like that?

Answer......Hell No

Its easy for the Boss to justify by saying yes, I want to know, see where the jobs are, etc, blah blah.......

What he is really saying he wants to be the Big Boss with the Big Stick, and you make one tiny step out of line....Ill whip you

Its dehumanising, it reduces the role of a human to a machine that is expected to work, work, work, and the Boss squeezes every last drop from him.

Humans are not machines, they have feelings, emotions, good days, bad days, poor days good days.. Human efficiences degrade and improve on a daily basis.

Bosses should encompass the human element. To say that a tracker will show up that 0.1% bad egg is ludicrous. So you beat the 99% good eggs to get that 0.1% ?

Treat your employees with respect and dignity, dont constantly monitor them, Allow them the laxities .

When you were a kid and your parents monitored your every move, how did you feel?? Yes you rebelled.....

This is the same....