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View Full Version : OK! So Fault find This Panel!!!! Pics attached.



Grizzly
22-05-2008, 11:06 AM
Untill 2-3 months ago this Plant was up and running.
Grizzly

Sturt
22-05-2008, 01:52 PM
Hi Grizzly

I wouldn't fancy fault finding around that panel for sure.

Shaft seals looks like it's given the will to live with all that oil around the base.

Looks like a 3 cylinder 35/8 - R22?

Sturt.

monkey spanners
22-05-2008, 03:58 PM
Fuse holders look a bit odd (red), melted holders??

US Iceman
22-05-2008, 05:17 PM
:eek::eek:

Now that looks like a way to spend the afternoon.:D

It's not the first one I've seen like that.:(

The custom wood panel for the pressure switches is very nice.:rolleyes:

paul_h
22-05-2008, 06:29 PM
Untill 2-3 months ago this Plant was up and running.
Grizzly
So is the fault finding part working out who the hell has been there in the last 2-3 months? Whoever it was, there's your fault.

chillin out
22-05-2008, 09:05 PM
I can see a loose wire at the top right...lol

Love the sign on the top, it ain't kidding is it???
Really wouldn't want to work on that thing live.

Chillin:):)

The Viking
22-05-2008, 10:50 PM
Call me old fashioned.

But I take on one of those any day, instead of all this modern digital Carp.

Back in the days when I was working on that type of controls, I would have had spares for all individual parts of that panel in my van.
Very unlikely that any individual part would have been more than £100.
Permanent repair there and then.

Nothing like the service we offer nowadays.
"Sorry Gov, it looks like PCB that's gone I will order one in and if you are lucky we will get it next week. BTW, it will cost you about a grand and there might be other faults that won't show up with a knackered board in there.!"

Bah Humbug... Give me back the old-fashioned electro mechanical controls from old!

(And yes, I do live as I teach. Quite a few of the units I look after has been converted from digital to electromechanical)

Grizzly
22-05-2008, 11:10 PM
Ok
Now that I have your attention I Will explain.

This Plant was de-commissioned in March if I remember correctly.
After probably 30 yrs Service, (I am there tomorrow I will check the Manufacture date)

It was decommissioned after our insistence that THEY (The Customer).
Could not reasonable expect us to keep topping up the R22.
Following numerous shaft seal failures and or just dried out seals due to long shutdown periods.
Despite our protestations I expect that it may still be running if the store it cooled was not "moth-balled".
Sturt.
Yes it is a 3-5/8 or for the less long in the tooth a Halls V-92 (3 cyl. on R22).
On an original Star LPR System complete with hand expansion valve to the rear of the Control Panel.

M.S.
Showing your tender yet knowledgeable years again. The fuse holders are without the fuses in place.
(You actually remove the red terminal cover to get at the Cable connections)
Iceman.
That Sappele veneered panel was State of the Art in the 70's .
When I suspect it was first built.
Star have never scrimped on quality!
Paul.
No there never was a fault recently that's how long it has been shut down as explained above.
My point was that this system had been tinkered with and botched.
By the site electricians over the years.
That to find any faults would of been a nightmare.
And yes since becoming involved on this site there have been a few!

Chillin.
Yes it was a cheek to have that sign above the panel.
Especially when you consider that the cabling was so badly positioned.
That the panel door could not be closed properly.
And it was held in place with cable looped around the handle and part of the steelwork near bye.

Great response Guys, it makes one proud to be an engineer.
Even if we can't be too fussy sometimes.

Cheers Grizzly

Sorry Viking this post took so long I missed your BRILLIANT POINTS.
Because despite the horrendously untidy apperance Tracing a fault would be (and is) as you say a doddle compaired with what most of us have to contend with now!

OH I NEARLY FORGOT THERE IS A SECOND ONE NEXT TO IT. BUT NOWHERE AS SHABY!

US Iceman
23-05-2008, 01:12 AM
...digital Carp


Is that anything like an analog trout?:D

paul_h
23-05-2008, 06:25 AM
Bah Humbug... Give me back the old-fashioned electro mechanical controls from old!

(And yes, I do live as I teach. Quite a few of the units I look after has been converted from digital to electromechanical)Get a soldering iron and a RS spares catalogue.
If you cant fix electronic gear it's because you haven't bothered to learn or carry any spares :D

Some things you can't fix though, but like Nike123 says, take the board out and take it to a TV/electronics guy, I'me sure they'd be happy to help before they lose all their jobs in this throw away society because nobody bothers repairing anything electronic anymore.
We have to move with the times, not retrofit ancient tech. You can't make an inverter with mechanical switchboards.

Grizzly
23-05-2008, 06:57 AM
Get a soldering iron and a RS spares catalogue.
If you cant fix electronic gear it's because you haven't bothered to learn or carry any spares :D

Some things you can't fix though, but like Nike123 says, take the board out and take it to a TV/electronics guy, I'me sure they'd be happy to help before they lose all their jobs in this throw away society because nobody bothers repairing anything electronic anymore.
We have to move with the times, not retrofit ancient tech. You can't make an inverter with mechanical switchboards.

OUCH!
Grizzly

Peter_1
23-05-2008, 07:50 AM
A pump circulation system with a switch-cupboard we service from 1960.
There are 4 section of the same width of this spider rag.
See image 021 with the PLC on the ground which controls the compressors.

paul_h
23-05-2008, 03:32 PM
I didn't mean to be harsh on The Viking, he's a knowledgable and helpful guy, and experienced in modern electronic splits. But to write off all modern electronics just because he doesn't carry parts or have the expertise is pretty wierd.

Like I said in my last sentence, you cant make an inverter with a mech switchboard, electronics are here to stay. Best learn them rather than buying whole boards of manufacturers. If you can't fix them on site, (sometimes it is a big ask as I admitted). Maybe try giving some work to another trade that is diminishing these days, electronics repair specialists. A whole lot of them are closing shop these days because no one repairs anything electronic these days, and maybe you'll make a good team, come in cheaper and faster than the competition offering new PCBs everytime a relay or capacitor stuffs up..

The Viking
24-05-2008, 12:15 AM
It's OK Paul,

I'm a big boy and I can take it.
(As it happens I have done a basic course in electronics and do have both RS catalogues and soldering irons, also built a ham radio once that actually worked)

Don't get me wrong, there are some situations that warrant electronic controls.
BUT, is a 12 channel digital controller really the best option for a little chiller with twin DOL compressors, serving a handful of 2 pipe fancoils for comfort cooling?
Or for a 2 stage DX roof top unit ultimately controlled by a TREND BMS system?
(This second example is from real life; That's 2 of the units that's gotten "Vikingised" controls. The manufacturer's guys attended site with all their bells and whistles, decided in their wisdom that the IC module(s) were shot. As they don't sell the programmed IC modules on their own, their option was to to replace the boards at £800+ per unit. The real killer was that they quoted a delivery time of 8-10 weeks for these boards!
That was when I decided to do a temporary fix with a handful of relays for ~£150 + a day's labour...
This happened 3 years ago and the temporary fix is still going strong)

In my (humble) opinion, the usage of complex electronic controllers is driven, not by the end-user's demands or requirements but rather by the manufacturers' R&D departments need to show how good they are!

Grizzly
24-05-2008, 12:43 AM
15 ALL AND ALL'S WELL
Good points all round I think?

Grizzly.

US Iceman
24-05-2008, 03:07 AM
In my (humble) opinion, the usage of complex electronic controllers is driven, not by the end-user's demands or requirements but rather by the manufacturers' R&D departments need to show how good they are!


That statement says a whole lot! A lot of these control systems are more complicated than they need to be and I believe the use of some controls/controller is driven by the technology setting on the shelf.

I have one story similar to The Vikings. A brand new factory built chiller that just would not work properly. After several months of arguing with the factory the owner was getting disgusted and asked me; "what can I do?"

Time for the wire cutters....;)

Re-wired the panel in one afternoon and the problem disappeared.

Peter_1
25-05-2008, 12:21 PM
....
In my (humble) opinion, the usage of complex electronic controllers is driven, not by the end-user's demands or requirements but rather by the manufacturers' R&D departments need to show how good they are!

Or to bind the client to the customer.
Another example: a manufacturer here very nearby - almost my backyard - installs modem control in leased freezers.
This is so handy when some fault occurs they say, they're called instantly by the system.
But... you don't pay your monthly payment..they call the system and switch off all the control lights and some readings but the machine can still operate.
Client calls the company that all the control lights are blown..."One moment, we will make a connection with your system..indeed, we see a small fault which doesn't take long to repair but it can't run this way for a long time because other systems will fail soon . Oh, by the way, we see an open invoice which still isn't paid. Can you do this at once so that this doesn't disturb the repair?"
Real life story.

When installing electronics, you can bind your client and the manufacturer can bind his installer. Look in the nowadays airco's...PCB's all over around and hence, it worked without one piece of electronic 20 years ago.

Look to our cars..you can't replace a simple light bulb in the new VW Golfs, you can't replace any loner a brake pad in the new Mercedes, you need a computer to reset fault messages in most cars,....

monkey spanners
25-05-2008, 03:44 PM
How to fix ac the old fashioned way :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4OEeCu1KE&feature=related

Jon :p

Grizzly
25-05-2008, 05:36 PM
How to fix ac the old fashioned way :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4OEeCu1KE&feature=related

Jon :p

Nice one Jon.
I WONDER IF ANY OF THE GUYS ON THE FORUM KNOW SCOTTY?
GRIZZLY

US Iceman
25-05-2008, 09:50 PM
I just cringe everytime I seee one of these do-it-yourself videos or self-help instructions. When they get it really screwed it just costs more to fix by a compentent person.:(

taz24
26-05-2008, 11:20 AM
I like the bit where he tells you to drill a hole in the evaporator caseing.

Clasic.

I remember going to many many customers over the years when they have atempted to put door locks on the fridge or freezer and they have drilled straight through the discharge pipe inthe door frame.

taz.

Pooh
26-05-2008, 12:00 PM
Grizzly
one point you made hit the nail on the head were you said the site electricians had bodged it over the years, and their supposed to be the experts.

Ian

Grizzly
26-05-2008, 11:32 PM
Grizzly
one point you made hit the nail on the head were you said the site electricians had bodged it over the years, and their supposed to be the experts.

Ian

Yep.
And I know you have been there and got the T shirt.

Strange isn't it that it would appear that domestic electrics are more heavily regulated than Industrial.
Grizzly