Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned

[fridgey]

How many tonnes of refrigerant are lost each year due to poorly installed split systems? I have no idea but I can only guess that it is a hell of a lot. It’s my opinion that manufacturers should not be allowed to pre-charge split systems. Here in oz any plumber or electrician can do a short course and they are all of the sudden qualified to install splits. There are too many leaks left by dodgy flares, poor welds or just incorrect installation. Not to mention all the backyarders who attempt DIY installs. Many of these leaks could be avoided if left to qualified refrigeration technicians/engineers who are trained for years to do the job properly. If units weren’t pre-charged it would stop tonnes of refrigerant being lost to the atmosphere each year, because the installation would have to be done be a licensed refrigeration techs that are licensed to purchase refrigerant to charge them.

One thing I have never understood about installing split systems in Oz is that us refrigeration techs can’t fully install a split because we aren’t legally allowed do the electrical. They have to be installed by a licensed electrician. Yet an electrician, who has done a short course of splits, is allowed to install refrigeration pipe work. They don’t have a license to buy refrigerant why should they be handling. I have a limited electrical license but can’t run wires. It’s not safe for me to do so because I haven’t been trained properly.:rolleyes: To do that I have to complete a 4 year apprenticeship.:( Yet they can do a short course and suddenly there allowed to work with refrigerant, something I’ve trained for 4 years to do.:mad: Refrigerant is a controlled substance you need to have license to buy it. So why can any Tom, Fred or Harry by a split system air-conditioner charged with anywhere in between 1-8 kg of refrigerant if it is a so called controlled substance. It doesn’t make any sense.

I understand manufacturers’ reasons for pre-charging, it’s convenient. They get the right charge in their units each time ensuring that the system is not over or undercharged for reliable operation if installed correctly. Refrigeration lines have to be run though, this is the problem. In many cases this is done by people who aren’t qualified; don’t have the proper tool or skill to do it properly. How many lines aren’t vac-ed out or just purged. If they want to be environmentally responsible, and they should be in this day age, pre-charging should stop. The world would be a better place for it. :)

[SUBCOOLING]

i agree i recently got a call from a fool who got a DIY split and somehow managed to loose the full charge i told it would have been cheaper to let me supply and fit it so i put a bit extra on his bill

[paul_h]

How many tonnes of refrigerant are lost each year due to poorly installed split systems?
Tell me about it!
Most sparkies I know are installing splits and making $700 a day profit.
I'm a self employed fridgy who is limited to repairs, not installs and I'm lucky to make that amount a week because I can't legally do installs alone.
If I found a good sparky who's available, what they charge would mean no profit or losing out due to high quotes.

edit: I've had words to people high up. They basically said the refrigeration industry wasn't interested in domestic a/cs, therefore didn't bother to get a representitive on the board. Therefore the plumbers and sparkies got everything their own way in regards to being able to install them. Having a union with lobbyists helps too.

It sucks but it's the truth, even the people hired to go after people with purchasing licenses, ie us fridgies, have no power in going after installers, as it's not required here to record the lic number or name of the installers for each job done. In the event that you know who did the install, the authority is not interested in following up.
I used to do warranty so I tried to get the customer to report to artick if the job was not done right, as I saw a LOT of leaky systems, but nothing ever came of it.

you're new here, search my posts, it's a frequent rant of mine :D

[Jadeair]

Plenty of sparkies doing it up here too!!

Lucky I've got a pretty good sparkie that helps out with my splits from start to finish and doesn't charge an arm and a leg, but he always gets other jobs from the splits, power points, downlights, etc..

Is it just me or do they squash your head down on the ARC licence, my heads rough enough as it is..:D

[IceMan08]

i agree i recently got a call from a fool who got a DIY split and somehow managed to loose the full charge i told it would have been cheaper to let me supply and fit it so i put a bit extra on his bill

:D that'll teach em!
from july they wont be selling DIY split kits to the public so more work for us :)
(in the uk)

[thebigcheese]

had a great 1 on friday.... got a call a guy owns a chip shop bought a split from makro and got his mate (plumber) to install it, could i recharge the system as when he was conecting the units he lost the charge....... i arrived at site and found it was only the ofn in the indoor unit had been lost. although they had the system running for the last 48 hours without the vavles open!!!! o dear compressor down

[fridgey]

Last year I went to a department of enviroment industry consultation night. It was suggested to the representative, that it should be legislated that splits can't be precharged. Heated debate followed, the point was noted, but the departments representative line was that its not on the agenda because manafacturers are not in agreeance. If it was legislated it was suggested that the splits are charged on a production line and the ones destined to oz would just have there charge blown off at the end rather than not charging them because it would be cheaper. But thats the problem with the world. Governments and big business pretend that they are serious about the enviroment, but in reality it always runs a distant second raking in taxes and posting big profits.


I've had words to people high up. They basically said the refrigeration industry wasn't interested in domestic a/cs, therefore didn't bother to get a representitive on the board. Therefore the plumbers and sparkies got everything their own way in regards to being able to install them. Having a union with lobbyists helps too.


I don't think thats totally true. It more a case that or industry doesn't really have a voice. Apart from RACCA, but it's a toothless tiger with no real lobbing power. The Electricians and Plumbers have massive union support and lobbyists as you know, and what they want, they pretty much get unfortunately. That why here in Vic not only are you not allowed to do electricals if your a frigie. If you want to install a split commercially you have to have a license from the plumbing assoc. Why to ensure the condensate runs to a proper drain. It's a joke!


Is it just me or do they squash your head down on the ARC licence, my heads rough enough as it is..:D

The did the same to me, I don't know whats going on there?

[paul_h]

I don't think thats totally true. It more a case that or industry doesn't really have a voice.
It's true, I worked for a service agent, and those guys have been in the trade since the '60.
They said when domestic splits first came out, we as a trade weren't interested. We were happy to stick with our open drive or centrif "big stuff" and the whitegoods repairer ie washine machine guys, can have the domestic a/cs and refrigerators.
They weren't talking crap because they ended up being one of the companies that did do service work for a few split system brands, and none of the other old large companies are still even now interested in doing domestic split service, just install, not repair which proves my point. Most a/c comapies here don't really want anything to do with them except make money off install. If we don't want to repair them, then really they have nothing more to do with our trade than they do with an electrician.

Also I did have a rather long talk to one of the ARTICK guys because I did contact them to complain. He was probably biased because he was not in the trade. But he basically said (and I believe it), when the laws were being drawn up, no refrig people stood up and could give a toss, so we reaped what we sowed.
Now what you are saying is true, we have no union or lobby group so things would have talken a lot longer to organise and no one really had the right to step up and speak for the whole industry anyway.
We did have the old state refrig licensing bodies that were there before the fed system, but they had the same conditions that sparkies etc could install, because they were from the older generation that didn't care and the whitegoods guys could have the split system industry.
At the same time the guys I worked for who knew it was important to retain control over who installed splits, were constantly ignored by ARCTICK, and not notified of meetings.
I also got audited as soon as I signed up for a purchasing licence (maybe because I previously had an altercation with them?). The guy doing the audit semed OK, I mentioned why go after us in the trade when all the installers are rubbish? He basically said they're not given any information on installers at all.

Bottom line, most of the refrig industry really didn't care, so we let it happen. Now power has been taken away, we are the underlings as we have no voice at all anymore since we've never had a union.
Unless someone with some clout says exactly as you do, ie "installers are responisible for so much refrigerant loss so no systems should be precharged", nothing is going to change.
I've had my rants on this forum and even to the powers that be, no one cares unless we have lobbyists in unions, government, enviromentalists etc.
edit:
I've even said to manufacturers reps, "what installers do costs you a lot of money in dodgey warranty claims, how about restricting where they are sold or bring out your own course/licensing?"
They didn't seem to think that was feasible, but daikin down here do exactly that, only sell through refrigeration specialists with accredited installers, people seem willing to pay the extra and the brand gets a good reputation for reliability.
But people from panasonic, fujitsu etc down here who sells there brands through an electrical retailer are somehow happy to know that any idiot could install them :(

[Radlam]

We went to a job yesterday to a customer's newsagents shop. He imported the unit in from Pakistan himself and then get his local PLUMBER to install it for him.

The plumber then told the shop owner that the unit was not pre charged and he would have to get an engineer in to commission it. Turns out the unit was pre charged but he had not made his joint properly anywhere on the pipework including flares etc. He had even used PTFE tape. Fookin plumbers!!!

There was oil all over the show, which proved it had been charged and lost around 1.5kg of refrigerant. Not exactly a load to lose, but as you say, how much of this is going on!!!

Oh and not only that, but he had also put about a 2ft rise on the drain with no pump. Its only a small wall split so no internal pump.

Needless to say we charged him accordingly to fix it all, hopefully they will learn and come to the qualified people next time instead of attempting to get things done on the cheap.

Why wont these people stay out of our industry, we're not plumbers, sparks, welders, joiners, etc and we dont try and pass ourselves as them so why are they? MONEY!

Things need to change, or every tom, **** and fookin harry will be installing splits, leaving us to mop up the **** they leave behind!!!

[drew71]

:mad: Refrigerant is a controlled substance you need to have license to buy it.

My main gripe has always been, that you can be trade qualified, and licensed to handle refrigerant, but you cant buy it without an additional license, Yet if Joe Bloggs with no qualifications goes out and buys a recovery unit, vac pump and leak detector he can then also buy a purchasers license allowing him to buy as much refrigerant as he wants.

I believe any real attempt to "clean up" the industry should have started with ensuring refrigerant ended up in the hands of people qualified to deal with it, rather than licensing people already qualified, but thats just me.

p.s Anyone see the back page of HVRAC Nation recently ? it showed pictures of an off the shelf split installed with clear PVC hose and hose clamps :confused:

Cheers

Drew

[Jadeair]

I think if your qualified to work overseas it should be easy to work over here if you have the right papers.

When I was working in Sydney we had a few good backpackers mostly Irish, god they could the drink some piss :p, working over here doing fine.

Worked on one split and someone (plumber) had put a gauge line in as the liquid line because it fitted.:eek:

[casstrig]

I totally agree with you,and it dosnt answer the question what happens when the unit is not back to back and the pipework has to be lengthened let alone how they charge in the liquide phase.

[Makanic]

yad yad yad...Licenced this control that...
went to a service job with my boss
New system install R410a ..commercial site..
error on LP..Installer (licenced fridgie Old school) purged or maybe he didnt have R410A guages ? it was a pain in the Back side to run a lead to the vacuum pump up to the roof top area & to carry the stuff up there..
when my boss rang him ,he said it must of been low charge from the manufacturer..
Mmm.. dont you check that when you commition.. reclaimed to find over 1KG short..Dry nitro charge ,Didnt drop when we came back after the weekend..
Recharged & it hasnt missed a beat..
Yes the fridgie was Licenced
Yes the fridgie has been in the trade over 20 years..
Bad tradesmen are bad tradesmen
Licence or Not...
I also have a mate that done the Splity Course (hes a Plumber)
He said the course was a waste of time
Because it was more involved in refigeration stuff no installation stuff at all..
So the split system course doesnt show them how to properly install, It just confused him more than before...what good is that..no wonder there crap at it...
thats my 20c worth

[Greengrocer]

:D that'll teach em!
from july they wont be selling DIY split kits to the public so more work for us :)
(in the uk)

Ahem.

This from a UK website and Fridge / A/C company.
http://www.orionair.co.uk/diy_self_%20install.htm

[sinewave]

The link works like a LG A/C unit! :confused:

[airefresco]

Link doesn´t work mate :)

[Greengrocer]

The link works like a LG A/C unit! :confused:

My point is, this is "one our own" selling DIY kit to the public to make a few bob. Don't use / install or go near LG either.

[Greengrocer]

Link doesn´t work mate :)

Try it now.

[airefresco]

Try it now.

That´s better. :)

The all-in-one units are fair enough, you just have to knock a couple of holes in a wall for them, but selling cassettes as DIY is a very scary thought.

[beagle]

I don't know if it was really that bad a development personally, at the end of the day there were plenty of people that'd attempted to install, ****ed up and had to call an engineer in to salvage their mess and ultimately it did a decent job of raising peoples awareness to the fact that air conditioning didn't have to be exclusive to their places of work. Yeah it caused a lot of nuisance enquiries but it's definately helped grow the domestic residential market, whether that's a good thing or not is up for debate but it all helps in my opinion. Also, I'm pretty sure the B&Q, Homebase etc self install splits are a thing of the past, pretty sure they found them to be a lot more trouble than they're worth :D

[AUScooler:-)]

Also I did have a rather long talk to one of the ARTICK guys because I did contact them to complain. He was probably biased because he was not in the trade. But he basically said (and I believe it), when the laws were being drawn up, no refrig people stood up and could give a toss, so we reaped what we sowed.

Bottom line, most of the refrig industry really didn't care, so we let it happen. :(

http://www.racca.asn.au/celsius/may05.pdf

http://www.racca.asn.au/celsius/march05.pdf

There was a lot of people that stood up for the industry, and my above links prove a small majority of it, who could have possibly predicted in 2005 that the Federal government would have chosen an ARC board of 6 men, who were from the following organisations.

VASA - Vehicle air conditioning specialists of Australia (including auto electricians)
VACC- Victorian automotive chamber of commerce
AREMA- Air conditioning, refrigeration and equipment manufacturers of Australia
NECA - national electrical and communications assiciation on Australia
ARWA- Air conditioning and refrigeration wholesalers assosiation
RRA - Refrigerant reclaim Australia

Why was two members on the ARC board from the auto industry yet no one from RACCA to represent refrigeration mechanics? It was not a simple mistake by the government to leave refrigeration mechanic reps off the ARC board. Refrigeration mechanics had differnt veiws on licensing, training and the role of the ARC and the government simply slammed the door in our faces because our views were not the same as the above board members views. They picked a side and it was not ours.

Arctick can say what ever they fuking want, but they are full of ****.

[Magoo]

Hi all.
Short of reading all the above, it is about time as an industry we put out foot down and say NO MORE **** heads in our industry. [ plumbers, sparkies and DYI handy men plonkers.]
Start at the top and partition harrass you local MP and stop all the fly by nighters, that particularly includes all the Mitre 10'S and Bunning toss pots to name only two, add Harvey Norman, Good guys. The cash carry experts. HRV, HVS and a gammet of others that would not know which way was up., they market to hell and suck in joe average, then we as a trade pick up the peices.
grumpy magoo

[chillerman2006]

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]How many tonnes of refrigerant are lost each year due to poorly installed split systems?

Since a certain chiller manufacturer started building in mexico, they turn up here leaking - low on refrigerant or even empty

Dunno if its build quality dropping due to targets they have been set or the journey they now take

Either way - agreed - just leave them with a small nitrogen charge in - why refrigerant ?

[nike123]

Some confusion in my head, dont read!

[chillerman2006]

Some confusion in my head, dont read!

Just adding Chillers to the list

[texas64]

I don't think they should ban precharged splits. Precharging definitely ensures the proper charge for these critically charged units cutting down on warranty issues. They just should not be sold direct to the public as an appliance, since they require "assembly" with dangerous chemicals(refrigerant).

[chillerman2006]

I don't think they should ban precharged splits. Precharging definitely ensures the proper charge for these critically charged units cutting down on warranty issues. They just should not be sold direct to the public as an appliance, since they require "assembly" with dangerous chemicals(refrigerant).

hi texas.

nice to see a real post today instead of all the advertising! :(

Are the splits not precharged for 5-30 metre runs now days & not critical charge ?

Have not done an install for 20 years nearly but what am lead to believe by others

R's chillerman

[Gideon Beddows]

I had a call from, a friend of a friend.


B&Q bought split.
Self Installed.

Ran for three years but never blew cold air?

Turns out he'd never opened the Refrigerant Valves! This thing had no safety devices except, i presume, a klixon on the compressor?

Why do i have to get a City & Guilds Part 9 and no doubt part X, XI, XII in the next two years when this muppet can buy and install his own split and re-charge his own car from a Halford kit?

Its a Fooking disgrace! :(

[chillerman2006]

I had a call from, a friend of a friend.


B&Q bought split.
Self Installed.

Ran for three years but never blew cold air?

Turns out he'd never opened the Refrigerant Valves! This thing had no safety devices except, i presume, a klixon on the compressor?

Why do i have to get a City & Guilds Part 9 and no doubt part X, XI, XII in the next two years when this muppet can buy and install his own split and re-charge his own car from a Halford kit?

Its a Fooking disgrace! :(

Hi Gideon

It's a joke mate, cant see things changing in the near future either

This industry needs proper regulation to ensure no more can diy

& no safety devices, how do they pass as safe to import ? (I presume import)

What are they waiting for, 1/2 a dozen deaths before they sort it out ?
:eek:

[Gary]

What are they waiting for, 1/2 a dozen deaths before they sort it out ?
:eek:

Show me one death.

The truth is that the vast majority of these installs work just fine... and that's why contractors are whining about it.

[chillerman2006]

Show me one death.

The truth is that the vast majority of these installs work just fine... and that's why contractors are whining about it.

Evening Gary

Did not say there was deaths mate, just thats what it takes normally to get anything done,

And yes that is why we moaning, cause they do work fine but thats doing engineers that have trained to do the work, out of work

Its easy done though mate, annit, dodgy install leaking refrigerant in the bedroom all night, that could be one long sleep! Bud:)

[Gary]

As I often say, there are two ways to win a foot race. You can outrun the other guy... or you can trip the other guy. In the big picture, the former is productive and the latter is destructive. Let everyone compete and let the chips fall where they may.

[chillerman2006]

As I often say, there are two ways to win a foot race. You can outrun the other guy... or you can trip the other guy. In the big picture, the former is productive and the latter is destructive. Let everyone compete and let the chips fall where they may.

Your Comments remind me of a very clever DR. of Engineering, I had the pleasure of working with,

He said,

'Why tell a fool direct what to do, when you can use a thousand words & see what he can do'

[Gary]

Its easy done though mate, annit, dodgy install leaking refrigerant in the bedroom all night, that could be one long sleep! Bud:)

For that to happen, you would need a very big system with lots of refrigerant and/or a tightly sealed bedroom the size of a phone booth.

[chillerman2006]

For that to happen, you would need a very big system with lots of refrigerant and/or a tightly sealed bedroom the size of a phone booth.

Argh! I see, a small split does not have the capacity to displace a bedrooms air to the point of asphyxiation

[paul_h]

As I often say, there are two ways to win a foot race. You can outrun the other guy... or you can trip the other guy. In the big picture, the former is productive and the latter is destructive. Let everyone compete and let the chips fall where they may.
Well you don't deal with domestics, and you're not in Australia where there's a 5 yr manufacturers warranty that is subbed out. Ie I'm one of those subs and bad installs cost me time and money. Installer is useless and doesn't even have a licence to buy refrigerant, doesn't know what they're doing, and doesn't bother coming back to rectify faults, fobs the customer to the manufacturer, manufacturer calls me, and o f course manufacturer isn't paying me unless it's a genuine fault on their part. Installer no where to be found, customer not happy about anything and of course not interested in me charging them for the call out.
Installers easily get a licence to install precharged systems here, way lower level of knowledge and education that is required to buy refrigerant. I'd be happy if precharged systems were not available to get rid of those installers. Not just for the leaks and poorly installed a/cs, but I come across heaps of overcharged splits because the installer using only 30cm of interconnecting piping is save time and piping/ducting, which of course run like crap in heating mode.

[chillerman2006]

Well you don't deal with domestics, and you're not in Australia where there's a 5 yr manufacturers warranty that is subbed out. Ie I'm one of those subs and bad installs cost me time and money. Installer is useless and doesn't even have a licence to buy refrigerant, doesn't know what they're doing, and doesn't bother coming back to rectify faults, fobs the customer to the manufacturer, manufacturer calls me, and o f course manufacturer isn't paying me unless it's a genuine fault on their part. Installer no where to be found, customer not happy about anything and of course not interested in me charging them for the call out.
Installers easily get a licence to install precharged systems here, way lower level of knowledge and education that is required to buy refrigerant. I'd be happy if precharged systems were not available to get rid of those installers. Not just for the leaks and poorly installed a/cs, but I come across heaps of overcharged splits because the installer using only 30cm of interconnecting piping is save time and piping/ducting, which of course run like crap in heating mode.

Thats just bad news Mate

Stuck between a rock & a hard place

You want the work - to earn money - & dont get paid if it's the installers c0ck up

Thats just wrong
:(

[Gary]

Well you don't deal with domestics, and you're not in Australia where there's a 5 yr manufacturers warranty that is subbed out. Ie I'm one of those subs and bad installs cost me time and money. Installer is useless and doesn't even have a licence to buy refrigerant, doesn't know what they're doing, and doesn't bother coming back to rectify faults, fobs the customer to the manufacturer, manufacturer calls me, and o f course manufacturer isn't paying me unless it's a genuine fault on their part. Installer no where to be found, customer not happy about anything and of course not interested in me charging them for the call out.
Installers easily get a licence to install precharged systems here, way lower level of knowledge and education that is required to buy refrigerant. I'd be happy if precharged systems were not available to get rid of those installers. Not just for the leaks and poorly installed a/cs, but I come across heaps of overcharged splits because the installer using only 30cm of interconnecting piping is save time and piping/ducting, which of course run like crap in heating mode.

You are losing time and money... and yet you keep doing it?

[Josip]

Hi, all :)

I'm from heavy industry where all "ingredients" must be charged after installation. No DIY scenarios. All by the book. Even then, sometimes, we have a leak and of course a problem how to repair it.

I can try to imagine what a mess can do a highly skilled DIY "maestro" selling some hobby tools til yesterday and installing split A/C today.

I agree, all split units should be pre-charged only with N2 and compressor with oil. That will ensure no DIY installations with wrong slopes, undercharged, overcharged etc...

It is very simple to put a stick with exact charge of refrigerant up to 5-10 meters with info how much more refrigerant for longer pipe run by meter of pipe. That must not be so complicated, because it is not!

BUT, that is not good for trade .... for manufacturers of units and refrigerants because the lost of refrigerants in that case will be zero.

Unfortunately, here we are in political decision area and we cannot do a lot, almost nothing so far, but for sure we have to insist to change a law to protect a future generations.

Governments all around a world are speaking a lot about environment protection (collecting points for next elections), but in reality no effects at all.

Best regards, Josip :)

[AUScooler:-)]

As I often say, there are two ways to win a foot race. You can outrun the other guy... or you can trip the other guy. In the big picture, the former is productive and the latter is destructive. Let everyone compete and let the chips fall where they may.

In Australia an electrician can do a 3 day course to install heat pumps, however refrigeration mechanics cannot compete with electricians because we cannot do a short course to do the electricals. So an electrician can do it cheaper.

Now its all very well for city slickers who stand around drinking their lattes working on VRV and large chillers but how do you think, the refrigeration tradespeople are going in small country towns?

So much for you’re fair foot race.

[Gary]

So... if the electricians can trip people, you should be able to trip them, too.

[AUScooler:-)]

So... if the electricians can trip people, you should be able to trip them, too.

For starters banning pre-charged splits will not trip electricians as they can purchase refrigerants.

As for the DIY, they have not done training or licenses, also when the DIY stuffs up it costs us money as we get sent to the job but then the manufacturer will not pay for a dodgy install.

So much for you're fair foot race.

[Gary]

Sounds like the electricians have an unfair advantage. Does that mean you should also have an unfair advantage? No, it means the electricians should not have an unfair advantage.

If warranty work doesn't pay, don't do it.

[AUScooler:-)]

We have the unfair advantage to the DIY. They have a profession and im guessing I cannot go near it. For example a DIY may be a police officer. They put in a heat pump if this was a fair race then I should be allowed to go and arrest a few people. But its not is it?

As for the warranty work how do we know which warranty jobs are a poor install or which ones have a blown PCB. We don't know until we get there so how can we choose not to do it?

[Gary]

Do you cook your own meals?... or call in a professional? Should chefs everywhere get laws passed forcing everyone to get their meals catered? They could claim that it would improve the quality of meals, make chefs look more professional... and maybe even save lives. Would you then be a proponent of DIY meals?

I'm betting you do lots of things yourself. Do you do your own driving?... or hire a chauffeur? There are professional chauffeurs out there who need the work. Should they get laws passed?

I just remodeled my kitchen, electrical, plumbing, carpentry, drywall, painting, everything. I stepped on everyone's toes. Do I feel bad about it? Not even a little bit.

[nike123]

If warranty work doesn't pays, don't do it!
If I work warranty jobs here, I ask customer to show me warranty form and bill signed from authorised installer or else warranty does not apply and I charge my arrival and work done from customer.
BTW that still doesn't automatically mean that installation is done properly, but it apply for warranty.
Wholesaler warranty does not apply if they are not paying me for such service calls.
I will never sign contract for warranty work if it is not that way, or if I don't have my calculation which tells me that i could make good money of such work.
If I happen to find that such work gives me fair profit, I would not have any objection on DIY installations, in fact I would be glad that is more of them.
From your posts, I see that in Australia some manufacturers give 5 y warranty no mater what. That is their way to get in that market. And that should be their cost. If someone sell that equipment, it is probably covered with price discount and that same someone should pay for warranty services. Simple as that.
If it is not that way, that is what you should fight for, and not in banning pre-charged splits and peoples to save some money if they are willing to do it without benefits of warranty.
Here, with one wholesaler, you could have 7 years warranty on Fujitsu only if authorised installer is installed your equipment and if you pay every year annual service to authorised service.



Do you cook your own meals?... or call in a professional? Should chefs everywhere get laws passed forcing everyone to get their meals catered? They could claim that it would improve the quality of meals, make chefs look more professional... and maybe even save lives. Would you then be a proponent of DIY meals?

I'm betting you do lots of things yourself. Do you do your own driving?... or hire a chauffeur? There are professional chauffeurs out there who need the work. Should they get laws passed?

I just remodeled my kitchen, electrical, plumbing, carpentry, drywall, painting, everything. I stepped on everyone's toes. Do I feel bad about it? Not even a little bit.
It is nice to see some comon sence! I totaly agree with you, Gary!

[mikeref]

For starters banning pre-charged splits will not trip electricians as they can purchase refrigerants.

As for the DIY, they have not done training or licenses, also when the DIY stuffs up it costs us money as we get sent to the job but then the manufacturer will not pay for a dodgy install.

So much for you're fair foot race. Hmm, don't know of sparkies in my area that can buy gas. Know of one or two that have done dual trade and therefore can apply and be issued an "AU" number. ( Australian licence). As for manufacturers asking me to do any warranty, the response is no. Once bitten, twice shy. Must say, the exception is Skope New Zealand, who have not let me down.. Mike.

[paul_h]

You are losing time and money... and yet you keep doing it?
I will not keep doing it actually. Point was the end user/customer, repairer, manufacturer will lose out with dodgey installers that CAN ONLY install pre-charged gear, and everyone licensed and in the repair trade refuses to do warranty.

So it would be best for EVERYONE ie, repairers, consumers, manufacturers, if systems weren't pre-charged. Higher grade of install, less likely problems for the consumer, less bogus calls to the manufacturer or warranty repairer.
The only person that benefits from pre-charged systems is the dodgey installer than isn't licenced to buy refrigerant and will probably do a crap job installing anyway.

[Gary]

Since you are doing warranty calls, you are seeing the dodgey installs. What you are not seeing is the many thousands of DIY installs that are not dodgey and are working just fine. If this were not so, the manufacturers would not be selling these systems to DIYers. Banning precharged systems would only benefit you... at everyone else's expense.

[paul_h]

Wow, seems like you are out for me or something.
If I stopped doing warranty calls, it will still be someone else's problem, someone who is not the installer.
The manufacturer will suffer, the poor sap who does warranty will suffer, the customer who bought the unit will be stuck in between (manufacturer voids warranty, warranty repairer refuses to fix without payment, installer can't fix and doesn't want to know about it...)
How is this all about me?

[nike123]

@paul-h

As I see it, if you only stop do warranty calls for installs that are done by unlicensed installers everyone will benefit except customers who are choosing to install it by himself or by cheaper unauthorised installers.

As I pointed earlier, here wholesalers make list of authorised installers and only they could install units and sign warranty paper. Service of these units is covered and paid by wholesalers, not manufacturers.
Manufacturers only give discount on price to wholesalers for all units.
And, not to be kidding ourself, proper installation on residential single split-system could do almost every Bonobo monkey with proper tools and 3 hours of training how to make flare and vacuum drying, and 2 hours of how to make drainage properly, and 15 min. of how to properly extend power cord .

[paul_h]

It's the licenced installers that are the problem here.
Electricians, plumbers and anyone experienced in install can get the licence after doing a short college course.
They can't flare, they don't do a decent vac, they don't leak test, they install cheaply (minimal pipe ducting, minimal pipe length, no isolator. In short don't read the installation manual, don't follow best practice, they put the units in inaccessible locations, and just walk away even though they have a licence - more of an enviromental licence to handle refrigerants, not a skills based licence.)
Of course short cuts are made because they don't have to deal with anything after the fact re: breakdowns, and can walk away. If there's a leak, they aren't legally allowed to buy refrigerants, so they will deny any fault, they can't fix it. In the end the manufacturer cops the bad rep.

So the gist of my statements is if you can't buy refrigerant, you have no business installing, therefore units not being precharged shouldn't be a hassle to people that should be installing them in the first place, and keep out people that don't know a damn thing about a/c or refrigeration, installer licence or not.

the electricians, plumbers and mechanics that grant these refrigerant handling licences to the electricians, plumbers and mechanics, felt like it would be the right thing to do to stop fridgies like me working on their own cars a/c!

edit: I'm not getting worked up about this, I'm beyond caring.
I think I made a post ages ago about the pros and cons on different aspects of the industry.
Refrigeration means 24/7
A/c is easier, but a one man band can't do commercial
I'm only doing this domestic stuff (a/c and refrig) because it's easy to be a one man band doing this.
But I've had enough of domestic a/c for all the reasons I've said.
And in the other thread I started once about asking about industrial/commercial work I did say I want to go there for less of this dodgey installer crap.
Hopefully I'm moving within a year to the albany WA area and start doing something different.

[monkey spanners]

I think the problem is some 'tradespeople' doing stuff they obviously are not capable of doing, this leaves customers thinking the world owes them a warranty, which it obviously don't...

I like doing stuff myself, be it a bit of diy round the house, or working on my car or truck and wouldn't want to prevent other formally unqualified people doing stuff for themselves only or not for money.

I would want to prevent them doing work they are not the least bit trained and tested in for others, society works because for the most part we all abide by laws and do whats expected of us. So i think if i'm employing a professional they should know what they are doing, and be the type of person who not only knows how to do but also does things propperly.

Who would want a lift home from a night out by a taxi driver who couldn't drive and/or didn't have insurance, or drove dangerously or quickly to try and get more fares done in a night?

Or as another example, who'd want to buy, and what would the consequences be, of someone with no knowledge making a load of training books for sale to a trade?

I was watching a history program a few months back about food standards hundreds of years ago, and how to be able to make a living bakers were putting chalk and saw dust in the bread to lower prices!!! The trouble is once a few people in a trade start doing this sort of thing, the rest have to follow or go bust to be competative. One persons greed (on the part of the trade) and another persons meanness with money (on the part of the customer) poisons a whole profesion.

I try to be fair in all my dealings with customers, that they get value for money, and to remeber that those companies i buy from need to earn a fair price for their efforts too, but with hacks and bodgers in a pretty much unregulated trade it doesn't really make me much of a living.

Jon :)

[chemi-cool]

Lucky for me, i have stopped installing splits and repair them some 5 years ago mainly from the reasons you guys wrote here.

As i se it, folks try to save money [or thats what they think they do] and Ministry who set the rulls do not understand **** about splits. On the other side we work under tight regulations of using refrigerants inside the systems.
At the end of the day its politics.

[ycztiflo]

Âñåì ïðèâåò. Õî÷ó ïîäåëèòñÿ ñ âàìè ñâîåé èñòîðèåé. Çàíèìàþñü âåáìàñòåðèíãîì è ÑÅÎ óæå íå ïåðâûé ãîä. Àðåíäóþ õîñòèíãè ñåðâåðà ïîä ðàçëè÷íûå íóæäû. Õîñòèëñÿ íà ìèðîõîñòå, ôðèõîñòå, èìïåðèè, âñåõ íå ïåðå÷èñëèòü. È òóò ìíå îäèí ïîëóçíàêîìûé äðóã ïîñîâåòîâàë çàõîñòèòüñÿ ó (s-dedicated.com). ß êóïèë äëÿ òåñòà VPS-êó çà 20 äîëëàðîâ. Âñå ðàáîòàëî øèêàðíî, ÿ ïåðååõàë òóäà ïîëíîñòüþ, çàëèë ñâîè áåëûå ïðîåêòû, çàëèë òàê æå äîðâåè. Ñïóñòÿ ìåñÿö ìîé ñåðâåðîê íà÷èíàåò îòêëþ÷àòüñÿ, åñòåñòâåííî àäìèíèñòðèðîâàíèå ó s-dedicated ïëàòíîå, ïðèøëîñü êî âñåìó ñâîåìó áóêåòó äîó÷èâàòü àäìèíèñòðèðîâàíèå CENT OS, êîíñîëüíûå êîìàíäû è òîìó ïîäîáíîå. Óòî÷íþ îäèí ìîìåíò, íàãðóçêó íà ñåðâåð ÿ íå ñîçäàâàë, ò.ê. òðàôèêà áûëî â ðàéîíå 2Ê óíèêîâ â ñóòêè. Ïî ìåðå âîçìîæíîñòåé ÿ ïîäûìàë ñâîé ïàäàþùèé ñåðâåð ðàç â íåäåëþ. È òóò ñëó÷àåòñÿ òàêîé ìîìåíò ÷òî ñåðâåð íå ïîäûìàåòñÿ. ß ïèøó â ïîääåðæêó, ãîâîðþ, ïîìîãèòå ïîäíÿòü. Îíè ìíå ïðåäëàãàþò ïëàòíîå àäìèíèñòðèðîâàíèå. 25 äîëëàðîâ çà ïîäíÿòèå ñåðâåðà. ß ÷èòàþ ãóãë è ïîäûìàþ ñåðâåð çàíîâî. Ïîòîì ñåðâåð íà÷àë ïàäàòü êàæäûé äåíü. ß çàäóìàëñÿ î ïåðååçäå. Ïîñëå ïîñëåäíåãî ïàäåíèÿ ñåðâåð íå õîòåë ïåðåãðóæàòüñÿ äàæå ñ ïàíåëè áèëëèíãà. ß ñíîâà îáðàòèëñÿ çà ïîìîùüþ â ñàïïîðò íà ÷òî ïîëó÷èë ñíîâà îòâåò. 25 äîëëàðîâ è âàì ïîäûìóò ñåðâåð. Ìíå ýòà èñòîðèÿ íàäîåëà, ÿ óæå íà÷àë ïîäûñêèâàòü âàðèàíòû ïåðååçäà. Ãîâîðþ ìîë, îòäàéòå ìíå áåêàï ñ ìîåãî ñåðâåðà è ÿ ïîåõàë äàëüøå. Ìàíèáåê íå íóæåí, îñòàâüòå ñåáå. Íà ÷òî ÿ ñíîâà ïîëó÷èë îòâåò, ÷òîá ïîëó÷èòü áåêàï íóæíî ïîäíÿòü ñåðâåð, à ïîäíÿòü åãî ñòîèò 25 äîëëàðîâ. ß çàïîäîçðèë ÷òî ñåðâåð ïàäàåò íå ñëó÷àéíî à ïî çàêàçó, âèäèìî àáîíåíòñêîé ïëàòû õîñòåðó ïîêàçàëîñü ìàëî. ß ïîçâîíèë íà íîìåðà òåëåôîíîâ êîòîðûå óêàçàíû íà ñàéòå, íåñêîëüêî ðàç ïîïàë ñîâåðøåííî â äðóãèå îðãàíèçàöèè è 1 òåëåôîí ìåíÿ ïðèâåë â àäìèíèñòðàîðó, êîòîðûé òàê íàãëî âûìàãàë ó ìåíÿ 25 äîëëàðîâ çà áåêàï ñåðâåðà. ß ïîïðîñèë îòäàòü ìíå áåêàï ïî-õîðîøåìó, íà ÷òî ãîëîñ, ÿâíî ãîìîñåêñóàëüíîé èíòîíàöèåé ìíå îòâåòèë - "Óãðîçû??????? è áðîñèë òðóáêó." Áîëüøå ÿ äîçâîíèòüñÿ íå ñîìã, òðóáêó íèêòî íå áðàë. Àäìèíèñòðàòîð âåë ñåáÿ òàê æå, êàê äåâ÷åíêà â 15 ëåò. Ïîñëå ýòîãî ÿ âèæó ó ñåáÿ â áèëëèíãå ìèíóñ 10 äîëëàðîâ è â òèêåòàõ îòâåò. Àäìèíèñòðàòîð ïîäíÿë âàø ñåðâåð, òàì áûëè âèðóñû è ìû ðåøèëè ñ âàñ ñòÿíóòü 10 äîëëàðîâ. ×åðò ñ íèìè, íà÷àë òÿíóòü ÿ îòòóäà ñâîè áåêàïû, äîðîâ áûëî ìíîãî, ïîýòîìó ïåðåâîçèë ïðîåêò çà ïðîåêòîì íà íîâûé õîñòèíã. Òóò ìíå îñòàåòñÿ ñòÿíóòü ïîñëåäíèé ïðîåêò, ïðåäîïëà÷åííîãî õîñòèíãà ó ìåíÿ îñòàåòñÿ 2 äíÿ, è ÷òî ÿ âèæó - ñåðâåð çàêðûò ðàíüøå ñðîêà. Ïèøó â ïîääåðæêó ñ ïðîñüáîé âåðíóòü áåêàï ñëûøó îòâåò: Âàø ñåðâåð óäàëåí èç-çà íàãðóçêè. ïîëó÷àåòñÿ óäàëèëè ìîè ñàéòû äàæå íå ðàçîáðàâøèñü â ÷åì äåëî. Ïðîñòî âèäèìî ïîíÿëè ÷òî ÿ íå áóäó ïëàòèòü çà àäìèíèñòðèðîâàíèå 25 äîëëàðîâ êàæäûé ðàç, êîãäà îíè áóäóò ìíå ñïåöèàëüíî ëîæèòü ñåðâåð è ðåøèëè ïðîñòî îò ìåíÿ èçáàâèòñÿ. Âîò òàêàÿ èñòîðèÿ. Ïðèëàãàþ ïåðåïèñêó ñ àäìèíîì. Ïðîñìîòð òèêåòà: Îñòàíîâêà ñåðâåðà #1 Ñîîáùåíèå | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 19:25:47 | Âàæíîñòü: | Ñòàòóñ: Âû îñòàíîâèëè ñåðâåð êîãäà ó íåãî åùå îñòàâàëîñü 3 äíÿ. Çàïóñòèòå åãî íà ýòè 3 äíÿ. Ìû íà íèõ ðàñ÷èòûâàëè äëÿ òîãî ÷òîáû ñòÿíóòü âñå áåêàïû. Ñåðâåð äîëæåí áûë ðàáîòàòü äî 22,08,2011 à ñåãîäíÿ òîëüêî 19,08. Äàâàéòå ðàáîòàòü ÷åñòíî!!! #2 Îòâåò (Nik) | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 20:46:57 1. Âàø ñåðâåð ñîçäàë áîëüøóþ íàãðóçêó, ÷òî ïðèâåëî ê ïðîáëåìå. 2. Ó Âàñ äîëã 10 USD ïî ïðåäûäóùåìó ðåøåíèþ Âàøåé ïðîáëåìû. Âàø ñåðâåð îòêëþ÷åí ïî ýòèì ïàðàìåòðàì. #3 Ñîîáùåíèå | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 21:33:48 ìíå íóæíî äîêà÷àòü áåêàï. âåáñåðâåð ìîæåòå íå âêëþ÷àòü, ìíå íóæíî çàéòè â ïàíåëü, ïîñìîòðåòü êàêîìó þçåðó ïðèíàäëåæèò ôòï è ñêà÷àòü áåêàï èç HTML ôàéëîâ. Îðãàíèçóéòå ìíå íà 1 äåíü äîñòóï ê ïàíåëè è ôòï áîëüøå íè÷åãî íå íóæíî #4 Îòâåò (Nik) | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 21:37:49 Íåò òàêîé âîçìîæíîñòè. Ïðè âêëþ÷åíèè Âàøåãî âïñ ñíîâà ñîçäàñòñÿ ïðîáëåìà äëÿ äðóãèõ êëèåíòîâ. Óâû, ïîìî÷ü íå ìîæåì. #5 Ñîîáùåíèå | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 21:57:28 Ñîõðàíèòå áåêàï öåëèêîì è âûëîæèòå åãî íà ëþáîå ôòï ÿ ïåðåêà÷àþ. #6 Îòâåò (Nik) | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 22:02:37 Âàø ñåðâåð óäàëåí. #7 Ñîîáùåíèå | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 22:05:52 óó çà 2 äíÿ äî îêîí÷àíèÿ õîñòèíãà óäàëÿåòå ñåðâåð, êàê ýòî ïîíèìàòü? Íà êàêèõ îñíîâàíèÿõ? âû â êóðñå ÷òî ÿ äàæå ìîãó â ñóä ïîäàòü ? âû ñòåðëè ìîè äàííûå. #8 Îòâåò (Nik) | Äàòà: 2011-08-19 22:08:26 Áóäüòå äîáðû ïîäàâàéòå. Âñòðå÷íûé èñê áóäåò çà ìîðàëüíûé óùåðá, ïîð÷à îáîðóäîâàíèÿ è øòðàô çà ðàçìåùåíèå ïîðíîãðàôèè. (ïåðåä àðåíäîé àäìèíèñòðàòîð ëè÷íî ðàçðåøèë õîñòèòü äîðâåè âçðîñëîé òåìàòèêè). Âîò òàê âîò. Íå ïîïàäèòåñü â ðóêè ê õîñòèíãó s-dedicated.com!

[Gary]

Wow, seems like you are out for me or something.
If I stopped doing warranty calls, it will still be someone else's problem, someone who is not the installer.
The manufacturer will suffer, the poor sap who does warranty will suffer, the customer who bought the unit will be stuck in between (manufacturer voids warranty, warranty repairer refuses to fix without payment, installer can't fix and doesn't want to know about it...)
How is this all about me?

This is not about you and you should not take it personally. You have chosen to represent one side in the debate... and I have chosen to represent the other side.

[Gary]

Lucky for me, i have stopped installing splits and repair them some 5 years ago mainly from the reasons you guys wrote here.

As i se it, folks try to save money [or thats what they think they do] and Ministry who set the rulls do not understand **** about splits. On the other side we work under tight regulations of using refrigerants inside the systems.
At the end of the day its politics.

It is indeed about politics. Governments have driven up costs to the point where the untrained and unlicensed can do the same job much cheaper than those who are trained and licensed... and to the point where it would be insane not to consider doing the job yourself. Gone are the days when, for a reasonable cost, you could have the job done professionally.

[chillerman2006]

It is indeed about politics. Governments have driven up costs to the point where the untrained and unlicensed can do the same job much cheaper than those who are trained and licensed... and to the point where it would be insane not to consider doing the job yourself. Gone are the days when, for a reasonable cost, you could have the job done professionally.

Thats a very true Un-biased view Gary

My biased towards getting shot of these pre-charged units and stronger legistlation/penalties is purely based upon the time/effort/knowledge proffesionals of our industry put in, to have the work ripped from under them by mr bodget & scarper :eek:

[Gary]

Thats a very true Un-biased view Gary

My biased towards getting shot of these pre-charged units and stronger legistlation/penalties is purely based upon the time/effort/knowledge proffesionals of our industry put in, to have the work ripped from under them by mr bodget & scarper :eek:

Forcing people to use our services is not right... and it is not the answer.

[install monkey]

if splits came out the box with a sniff of ofn then the cowboy plumbers will end up getting round this by fitting a quick fill loop and auto airvent-plumbers should stick to unblocking toilets and changing tap washers!!!

[AUScooler:-)]

Hmm, don't know of sparkies in my area that can buy gas. Know of one or two that have done dual trade and therefore can apply and be issued an "AU" number. ( Australian licence). As for manufacturers asking me to do any warranty, the response is no. Once bitten, twice shy. Must say, the exception is Skope New Zealand, who have not let me down.. Mike.

Under a split RHL licenses a sparky is permitted to add refrigerant to all split wall A/C of less than 18kw when extra refrigerant is needed for longer pipe runs on new installations.

How do they do their job if they cannot buy refrigerant with an RTA?

Not so long ago we done all the a/c work for a automotive repairer recently one of their diesel machanics done the 3 day AUTO course now we do not do the work there. Who is buying the refrigerant? Because we are not buying it for them. I know for a fact there is no fully qualified refrigeration mechanics working there.

[mikeref]

Under a split RHL licenses a sparky is permitted to add refrigerant to all split wall A/C of less than 18kw when extra refrigerant is needed for longer pipe runs on new installations.

How do they do their job if they cannot buy refrigerant with an RTA?

Not so long ago we done all the a/c work for a automotive repairer recently one of their diesel machanics done the 3 day AUTO course now we do not do the work there. Who is buying the refrigerant? Because we are not buying it for them. I know for a fact there is no fully qualified refrigeration mechanics working there.
Auscooler, i don't have an answer to that :(. RTA, or Refrigerant Trading Authority, coupled with Handling licence is supposed to keep us in the specialist field but obviously, the roof over our heads leaks in many places.. Try as i may to work within the confines of my restricted electrical ticket, there is always some sparkie ready to jump down my throat when grey areas are involved, such as running cable from indoor to outdoor on a split, NOT running cable from the house circuit breaker to the a/c. Had to go through the formalities of "please explain" to the electrical board in Brisbane after this tosser dobbed me in :mad:. End result: Don't even think about running any cable on refrigeration gear but once installed electrically, and something happens to that cable, then i,m able to rip it out and rerun it. How about test and tag? Noope. New South Wales fridgies can but Queensland guys, with the same licence, cannot. Have to have another ticket for that :p!!..Mike.

[AUScooler:-)]

Auscooler, i don't have an answer to that :(. RTA, or Refrigerant Trading Authority, coupled with Handling licence is supposed to keep us in the specialist field but obviously, the roof over our heads leaks in many places..

So you want proof then?

Well here you go.


http://www.arctick.org/pdf/Amended_Regulations_to_20_April_2010.pdf


140, (1) (a), (3) (b) (i)

Regulation 131, 3


P.S the only reason electricians do not get an RTA is because most splits do not need additional refrigerant, once an electrician obtains an RTA they will be audited like we are, 2 times every year, and they will then have to comply with section 141 in the above link like we refrigeration mechanics all do. Its much smarter and cheaper for an electrician not to get an RTA.

[chillerman2006]

Auscooler, i don't have an answer to that :(. RTA, or Refrigerant Trading Authority, coupled with Handling licence is supposed to keep us in the specialist field but obviously, the roof over our heads leaks in many places.. Try as i may to work within the confines of my restricted electrical ticket, there is always some sparkie ready to jump down my throat when grey areas are involved, such as running cable from indoor to outdoor on a split, NOT running cable from the house circuit breaker to the a/c. Had to go through the formalities of "please explain" to the electrical board in Brisbane after this tosser dobbed me in :mad:. End result: Don't even think about running any cable on refrigeration gear but once installed electrically, and something happens to that cable, then i,m able to rip it out and rerun it. How about test and tag? Noope. New South Wales fridgies can but Queensland guys, with the same licence, cannot. Have to have another ticket for that :p!!..Mike.


So you want proof then?

Well here you go.


http://www.arctick.org/pdf/Amended_Regulations_to_20_April_2010.pdf


140, (1) (a), (3) (b) (i)

Regulation 131, 3


P.S the only reason electricians do not get an RTA is because most splits do not need additional refrigerant, once an electrician obtains an RTA they will be audited like we are, 2 times every year, and they will then have to comply with section 141 in the above link like we refrigeration mechanics all do. Its much smarter and cheaper for an electrician not to get an RTA.

Gents

having read this and through the link,
it seems just crazy, you have to stick to rules/regs & sparks dont even when your carrying out the same job

we(engineers - you call mechanics) are hoping for much better regulation here, yet all it seems to have done for you's is ensure you comply

not improved the standards of work allowed when carried out with a restricted licence, now i know why a friend who moved to perth, employs sparks for all his installs
& probaly the answer to who buys the refrigerant is going tobe him as he holds the full licence, i'll phone him about 9:00 uk time & find out how they get round it & let you know

[AUScooler:-)]

Try as i may to work within the confines of my restricted electrical ticket, there is always some sparkie ready to jump down my throat when grey areas are involved, such as running cable from indoor to outdoor on a split, NOT running cable from the house circuit breaker to the a/c. Had to go through the formalities of "please explain" to the electrical board in Brisbane after this tosser dobbed me in :mad:. End result: Don't even think about running any cable on refrigeration gear but once installed electrically, and something happens to that cable, then i,m able to rip it out and rerun it.

We are not safe from electrical inspectors, even if we don't do the electricals.:mad:

We mount the heat pump and connect the refrigeration, but who does the electricals???? We are not allowed to do a short course to do the electricals.

Just a few month ago I installed a wall mount heat pump above an old electric wall heater. Whilst installing the refrigeration pipe work a home owner asked me, to do the electricals as well as the refrigeration, I said "no call an electrician".
Anyway he went out to the kitchen flipped pages through the phone book then he said, "im going down to the shop". I said to our apprentice "did he even ring an electrician"? "No said our apprentice". 1/2 hour later guess who turns up?

The DIY with some undersized electrical cable.

Now we had almost finished the install and I was happy with my work. Then the DIY pulls off the wall heater and uses the old wall heater supply as the new supply for the heat pump. The DIY ran undersized exposed cable from the old heater across carpeted floor and nailed it to the skirting board drilled a hole through the wall and and poked the wire out to the outdoor unit. It annoyed me because it stuffed up my good installation. At this point I had finished the pipework and left. If that electrical install by the DIY goes wrong the electrical inspector will blame us. The electrical inspector will say you installed it or must have known the DIY was installing it. Even If we dont't know the DIY installed the electricals they will still blame us.

[r.bartlett]

It is indeed about politics. Governments have driven up costs to the point where the untrained and unlicensed can do the same job much cheaper than those who are trained and licensed... and to the point where it would be insane not to consider doing the job yourself. Gone are the days when, for a reasonable cost, you could have the job done professionally.

Complete nonsense. The untrained and unlicenced have always been able to work cheaper in any field. That is simple economics not politics.

[Gary]

Complete nonsense. The untrained and unlicenced have always been able to work cheaper in any field. That is simple economics not politics.

That's true, but the price difference has grown exponentially with all of the government interference.

[Gary]

We are not safe from electrical inspectors, even if we don't do the electricals.:mad:

We mount the heat pump and connect the refrigeration, but who does the electricals???? We are not allowed to do a short course to do the electricals.

Just a few month ago I installed a wall mount heat pump above an old electric wall heater. Whilst installing the refrigeration pipe work a home owner asked me, to do the electricals as well as the refrigeration, I said "no call an electrician".
Anyway he went out to the kitchen flipped pages through the phone book then he said, "im going down to the shop". I said to our apprentice "did he even ring an electrician"? "No said our apprentice". 1/2 hour later guess who turns up?

The DIY with some undersized electrical cable.

Now we had almost finished the install and I was happy with my work. Then the DIY pulls off the wall heater and uses the old wall heater supply as the new supply for the heat pump. The DIY ran undersized exposed cable from the old heater across carpeted floor and nailed it to the skirting board drilled a hole through the wall and and poked the wire out to the outdoor unit. It annoyed me because it stuffed up my good installation. At this point I had finished the pipework and left. If that electrical install by the DIY goes wrong the electrical inspector will blame us. The electrical inspector will say you installed it or must have known the DIY was installing it. Even If we dont't know the DIY installed the electricals they will still blame us.

The problem with this scenario is that a.) you were not allowed to do the electricals and b.) you will be blamed for someone else's screwups. You don't need more regulations, you need less regulations.

[chilliwilly]

We are not safe from electrical inspectors, even if we don't do the electricals.:mad:

We mount the heat pump and connect the refrigeration, but who does the electricals???? We are not allowed to do a short course to do the electricals.

Just a few month ago I installed a wall mount heat pump above an old electric wall heater. Whilst installing the refrigeration pipe work a home owner asked me, to do the electricals as well as the refrigeration, I said "no call an electrician".
Anyway he went out to the kitchen flipped pages through the phone book then he said, "im going down to the shop". I said to our apprentice "did he even ring an electrician"? "No said our apprentice". 1/2 hour later guess who turns up?

The DIY with some undersized electrical cable.

Now we had almost finished the install and I was happy with my work. Then the DIY pulls off the wall heater and uses the old wall heater supply as the new supply for the heat pump. The DIY ran undersized exposed cable from the old heater across carpeted floor and nailed it to the skirting board drilled a hole through the wall and and poked the wire out to the outdoor unit. It annoyed me because it stuffed up my good installation. At this point I had finished the pipework and left. If that electrical install by the DIY goes wrong the electrical inspector will blame us. The electrical inspector will say you installed it or must have known the DIY was installing it. Even If we dont't know the DIY installed the electricals they will still blame us.

How do you go on with commisioning the finished systems regards to electrical licences, can you rig up an extension lead to feed the unit temporarily? Or do the oz rules prevent you from opening a board up to connect a supply? Its the same in in North America, every trade has to have a licence to be able to nessecarilly diverse to get things sorted. And its my understanding that in Canada, that you have to have a red seal licence to work as an electrician and another red seal licence to be able to work as an industrial electrician? Although in some Provinces they only recognise one licence for both types?

[mikeref]

Nup Chilli,cannot connect supply. I avoid installations unless sparkie is there on site, even then, customer is paying double. Classic case, an extension was added to doctors surgery and 6 splits were fitted. Sparkie did it all, including running copper lines uninsulated together, then ran armorflex over both before cement was poured on them. Cannot be undone now and a/c's don't work their best.. Mike.

[chilliwilly]

It seems to be going that way over here but in a slightly different direction. A fridgie can only comission, repair, and check pressures on a system if they've got the dreaded C&G 2079 or the CITB. But anyone can train to do it within two weeks and be assessed and qualify, I should imagine its similiar to the Oz system. Whereas someone who is time served or qualified to another City and Guilds qualification that is more suited to fridge or aircon, and may take at least two years to complete. Isn't allowed to do anything except install properly and leave the job unfinished.

With the electrical works it stinks even as bad. A time served electrician who may be a technician foreman supervising 50+ sparkies. Can't even fit a light fitting in their own bathroom, a couple of extra sockets in their own kitchen, or wire a circuit for a condensing unit outdoors, or any other circuit for that matter. Unless they're a member of an electrical safety body, or pay the local council around £250.00 to cover around £4500.00 worth of work??? To send out an inspector to simply visually inspect the job and tick box's on a sheet, and rely on the fact that the electrical installation safety certificate has been filled in correctly.

So it would seem that nearly every country has gone totally beauracratic crazy regarding what they define as safe and sound, and compliant with regs and codes. Time served tradesfolk seem to be a dying thing, but folk not even up to a rookie standard with a licence seem to be in more demand!

[paul_h]

All too hard, I'm just going to find a market and deal in sales of spare parts for whatever is hard to get. Let the people buying the parts whine about ****ty installs...
I'm too old to be climbing/jumping over 2 storey roofs anyway. **** domestic, the manufacturers should make the installer provide warranty! Once they did that, then maybe the installers would have a clue and be interested and skilled enough to do repairs, then the whole refrigeration trade can disappear from the domestic scene. Like I said, I really don't care and I'm over it.