Car Air-Conditioning

[assadp]

Is car air-conditioning exempt from any kind legislation or can garages just top up.
My wife’s air-condition stopped working, I checked the pressures and they were low.
As the vehicle is only 2 years old I took it into the dealership. They called me up and wanted £65 for recharging. I asked why it was not covered by the warranty. Below is how the conversation went.
The manager said it was classed as a consumable.
Slightly confused I asked to explain.
His response was, car air-condition needs topping up every couple of years
Me, where does the gas go.
Manager, it evaporates.
Me, it’s a sealed system
Manger, it evaporates and leaks out
Me, can I speak to the technician who is going to carry the work out may be I can get more sense out of him
Manager, no, do you want it repairing or not.


Spoke to Renault UK and they spoke to the dealership in question and on this occasion the work will be done free of charge as gesture of goodwill.

I did explain to both the manger and Renault UK that I was a fully qualified Refrigeration/Air-Con Technician

I would like to take some information to the so called manger to explain the legalities of systems leaking refrigerant and you don’t just top up.

Regards Assad

[brianubaldo]

hi

in my opinion;
your proffesion is not the issue here;), you cant say it to the manufacturer beause it is not involve in the issue.

you must contact the manufacturer for warranty issue
if you dont agree with the decision of the management just read the agreement between the manufacturer and customers.

if you see some foul play by the management then you can do what you want.

if you repair your car then automatically the warranty is void (if you did only).. if you see in the agreement that your car is not anymore under the warranty then repair it. in this case you can use your profession.

[assadp]

My point is if I were to top systems up with gas without finding the source of the leak and repairing, I would be in jail by now. However garages top up without checking for a leak and dont seem to have the correct qualifications and no questions asked.

[paul_h]

Car manufacturers accept systems leak. I have no idea why they get away with it, they claim vibration and high temps and no one cares.
But then again they are forcing new refrigerents into cars because of this. I'm sure if they could make "leak free" systems, they would spend the money to improve the systems rather that try design CO2 systems, so who knows...
Then again, in your situation I'd tell them that my systems aren't allowed to be topped up regularly, they need to be made leak free, so they have a duty to find and repair the leak.
I think what they get away with "yearly" top ups is ridiculous, I've bought ten year old cars with functioning systems because cowboys haven't stuffed around with it, and someone who knew what they were doing only played with it. If my car which I've owned for 5 years has a fully charged system and it's now 11 years old, then newer cars should have better sealing systems.
Secondly I'd point out how come my $800 fridge gets to over 10years old without a leak, while my $30000 car can't be built to that standard?

[IceMan08]

The manager said it was classed as a consumable.
Slightly confused I asked to explain.
His response was, car air-condition needs topping up every couple of years
Me, where does the gas go.
Manager, it evaporates.
Me, it’s a sealed system
Manger, it evaporates and leaks out
Me, can I speak to the technician who is going to carry the work out may be I can get more sense out of him
Manager, no, do you want it repairing or not.

ROFLMAO!!!
I always wondered about this too,
although slightly :off topic: joe bloggs can install a DIY A/C (:rolleyes:) system and purge it with R410A with the pre-charge from condenser, If I were to do the same (although it is something I'd never do anyway) I'd be doin some hard time with yourself, and be a coupla grand out of pocket too!!!
Its a crazy world, huh?:confused:

[assadp]

Hi I spoke to F-Gas and they have sent me a draft guidance and its not looking good, one rule for static and another for mobile (MAC systems)
There is a statement in the guidance which is Mobile systems: 'leakage is common during normal use'
This says it all.
I've been in the refrigeration industry since I was 19, I've worked for some big names and served my time at York International.
Never would we get away with topping systems up
regards Assad

[Karl Hofmann]

The quality of car air conditioning is abysmal... The connections are designed to be assembled quickly on a production line and the steel clips that retain the alloy pipes seem to have been designed deliberately to corrode, requiring you to go to the dealer to buy an over priced piece of alloy ..... Most car dealers are clueless on car aircon and when pushed in to a corner will simply quote from the manufacturers big book of BS phrases... the favorite is that the air con should be serviced every X months otherwise the warranty is void. My opinion is that the car is leaking somewhere.. If you can find it take it to them and make them fix it....

[GXMPLX]

Fact of life: There is no way to seal a rotating shaft a 100%! In cars vibration may produce much bigger leaks than the ones you ever saw in well aligned moderately balanced open compressor.

[Karl Hofmann]

Fact of life: There is no way to seal a rotating shaft a 100%! In cars vibration may produce much bigger leaks than the ones you ever saw in well aligned moderately balanced open compressor.

True... But two years is not acceptable for any car.. My buddy has a 1965 Humber Imperial with ac (Kit fitted late 70s) I charged it ten years ago... and it still holds the charge that I put in it and blows cold.

The "service every two to three years" clause is simply a get out to cover up cheap $hit quality components.

[brianubaldo]

Hi I spoke to F-Gas and they have sent me a draft guidance and its not looking good, one rule for static and another for mobile (MAC systems)
There is a statement in the guidance which is Mobile systems: 'leakage is common during normal use'
This says it all.
I've been in the refrigeration industry since I was 19, I've worked for some big names and served my time at York International.
Never would we get away with topping systems up
regards Assad

they send you guidlines about warranty period?
[you see there "leakage is common during normal use"]:eek:
this isnt normal!;) leak is possible during unusual vibration..

please look at again the guidelines that they gave you, then find the warranty peroid.. look if how many years is the coverage of their warranty!;)!

check if your car is still under warranty peroid!:)

[drew71]

This is probably off topic, but I can't see vibration being an acceptable excuse for leakage, I would hope that most automobile manufacturers engineer allowing for vibration.

I know of at least one prestige marque, who have designed so that every time the car is put in reverse, the climate control runs the compressor and heater, in an attempt to run shaft seals regularly even when the air conditioner is not in regular use.

My two cents, shaft seals and barrier hose are more likely culprits to my mind than vibration

though I will happily stand corrected

Cheers

Drew

[paul_h]

Hi I spoke to F-Gas and they have sent me a draft guidance and its not looking good, one rule for static and another for mobile (MAC systems)
There is a statement in the guidance which is Mobile systems: 'leakage is common during normal use'
This says it all.
I've been in the refrigeration industry since I was 19, I've worked for some big names and served my time at York International.
Never would we get away with topping systems up
regards Assad
Car a/cs leak because the law allows them to get away with it. Leaks sometimes occur through the shaft seal or rubber joints drying out, but it shouldn't be "common during normal use". It should be a rare occcurance that they try to minimise, not just accept it, and then get exceptions to the law provided for them!
As far as vibration and shaft seals, I could show them a rattly set of open drive compressors (stanby and duty so not always running), that have done for than two years service without leaking.
The biggest problem would be not running the a/c enough, most a/cs run now on demist mode, (or programmed times like drew71 mentioned) so they get fairly well used, so they shouldn't leak.
They get exceptions just because they claim "mobile systems are different and they will leak". When the truth is they are no different to old recip open drive fixed plant as far as vibration and seals, they just haven't bothered to work on the problem of the a/c not getting run enough to keep the seal oiled. (edit: not that that's always the cause. It could be bad assembly or components, but that's the cause they hide behind)

[drew71]

I forgot to mention, $150 Australian dollars for less than a kilo of 134, I don't have to leak test & customers bring the job to me !!!

I'm obviously in the wrong sector of the industry, not to mention the wrong country;)

Cheers

Drew

[assadp]

This is a reply from Defra regarding my recent enquiry regarding MAC systems. the name has been removed to protect the innocent.
------------------------------------

Dear Mr Padamsey,
Further to the initial information on mobile air-conditioning equipment already sent to you we would like to provide some additional thoughts on mobile air-conditioning.
I believe that you were told that the refrigerant “evaporates through normal use”. If the engineer was linking evaporation to leakage it shows how little understanding of refrigeration that he has!
However, mobile air-conditioning (MACs) equipment is different to stationary air-conditioning as it is placed in a much harsher environment and the equipment has to withstand much vibration and variable weather conditions. MACs have flexible hoses for compressor suction and discharge lines. These are very slightly permeable (although the latest materials are much less permeable than those used a few years ago). All MAC compressors have a mechanical shaft seal – which also gives rise to some gradual leakage. The amount of leakage varies greatly from car to car, but it can be expected that MACs lose between 50 g and 100 g of refrigerant per year. The typical charge in a MAC is about 750 g and the system can cope with a loss of about 25% of the charge without performance being affected too much. In a modern car there should be no need to top up a MAC more regularly than once every 3 to 5 years.
We fully understand your concerns and agree that every effort should be made by service engineers to prevent leakage.

Thank you for your interest and we hope the above is useful.

Regards

XXXXXX

------------------------------------

Hi XXXXXXX
Thank you for your reply
If every car has an acceptable level of refrigerant loss of 50-100g per year, multiplied by the amount of cars in the world today we may have just found the cause of global warming.
Why does there seem to be one rule for static another for mobile
Regards
Assad Padamsey
Technical Advisor

[paul_h]

As I said before though, they are banning 134a in car a/cs soon and are looking to switch to CO2 or some other refrigerant without enviromental impact.
There was another thread on r134a recently, and it was found since cars switched to r134a, the amount of r134a in the atmosphere had quadrupled due to car a/c leaks.

[assadp]

The only reason I can come up with why there seems to be double standards is the car idustry must be linning the pockets of who matter
Regards Assad

[SUBCOOLING]

i am working on a cars a/c system running on 134a if its let to run for 15mins or more frost forms on the vents ive never seen this before

[paul_h]

I know how you feel, I did say previously that the double standards are stupid, as there's a far few vibrating open drive recips in high ambients around the world stuck in the category of needing to be leak free, while a car a/c doesn't have to be.
I'm also hostile to the car a/c industry because when they brought refrigerant purchasing laws into australia, the lobbyists from the mechanics trade industry deemed a normal refrig tech to not be qualified to work on them, meaning I couldn't legally fix my own car.
Also every person I've known who had a "regas" done by a mechanic/autoelectrician/car aircon specialist has had to go back every year for yet another "regas", while mine are leak free. So there's a lot of bad practises that industry uses by taking advantage of the law that applies to them.

On the other hand some manufacturers themselves are trying to program the compressor to work more regularly to keep the shaft seals and rubber drying out, which I think is a good move. They are also developing new systems and trying to make eco freindly refrigerants work.

Bottom line, some manfacturers seem to be doing the right thing, a lot don't bother as it's more servicing they can charge for. Automotive mechanics/electricians or specialists are who is making a joke of it though, not even wanting to fix a leak because it guarantees income.
It's not all the manufacturers poor designs and assembly that cause the leaks, design is sound for the most part, my car hasn't been touched for 5 years. It's only the cowboys out there that feed you the line that's it's normal for a leak to occur and get money of you for yearly "top ups" that are doing the wrong thing.

[Erik Detroit]

Hi guys, an interesting discussion, so I'll throw in my perspective. I'm a refrigeration engineer in Detroit, about 10 yrs experience.

It's true, auto AC systems do leak, although the number most OEMs use is 25g/year. The worst (normal) culprit is the shaft seal, followed by the hoses which are permeable.

The worst (somewhat unpredictable) culprit is fitting O-rings, which often should be lightly oiled before assembly, but a lazy assembly plant operator can go an entire shift not oiling a single one.

Fitting seals are getting better, and face seals that are much harder to foul up are becoming more common.

Shaft seals used to be quite good (long before my time), and I think they were the same or similar to those used on open drive compressors. Most current shaft seals cost less than $1 USD and are highly engineered single lip elastomer seals. For the price they are amazing, but they will never compare to the old shaft seals. They do leak a (very small) steady stream of oil and refrigerant to maintain a seal, and keep the lip cool. Compressors have a wick of felt in the nose around the shaft to catch the "normal" amount of oil that leaks. Vibration is not much of a factor, engine driven compressors are designed and validated to operate bolted to...an engine!

All of the world's automakers use the same basic technology, and it comes down to cost and the enormous production volumes involved with autos. You could seal up a production auto very well for about $15 USD, but that is an expense that no OEM will bear unless made to do it (Like the EU is presently doing).

Regarding the Renault of the original poster, 2 yrs is an unacceptably short time to need a topping up. You'll be going back for another charge next year.

[GXMPLX]

Erik is right but in that tough the compressor is bolted to the motor the mass connected to the shaft is not and is free to vibrate agaist the seals causing wear. The only situation open compressor don't leak is if there is no refrigerant in them, if you haven't noticed it is because you haven't measured it with enough precision, and this may or may not be the problem here. Oil can act as a TEMPORARY seal but nothing can stop seals from leaking, if the seal has a constant flow of oil (compressors working all the time) leakage rate may be negligible but this is not the case in a car. Assadp's leakage rate is much higher and should check what is causing the problem (Dye?) and maybe then he can have a valid argument against the dealer.