Daikin or Mitsubishi

[eloroncedark]

I'm a total beginner when it comes to airconditioning but I was hoping to get some expert advice from this forum. For my home, I'm about to buy airconditioning equipment. One wants me to install Daikin and another wants me to install Mitsubishi. Doea it matter? Any pros / cons? Advice? Thanks!

[2007eng]

According to the cooling load make a selection from Daikin and also from Mitsubishi, then let the cost decides.

[coolments]

Hi there, both the equipment brands mentioned are market leaders in our industry so no problem there, they should be also closely priced if both companies are simialr in size.
Its the install quality you need to be concerned about, in general one man bands give you the best price but not the best back up in after care, larger companies vice versa.
The install quality is most likeley down to the install engineers pride in his work.

If both prices are the same then try an blag free maintenance for a year.

Good luck

[nike123]

Every manufacturer from Japan have their top models and other models. You could also consider Toshiba, Fujitsu, Sanyo, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and all of them have models who could satisfy your need an requirements.
My recommendation is to find good installer who have reputation for his work, and equipment is good as peoples who care about equipment.

[superswill]

I'm a total beginner when it comes to airconditioning but I was hoping to get some expert advice from this forum. For my home, I'm about to buy airconditioning equipment. One wants me to install Daikin and another wants me to install Mitsubishi. Doea it matter? Any pros / cons? Advice? Thanks!

please see:


http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11828&highlight=brands

[The Viking]

Hej och välkommen,

Just saw that you are from Sweden.

It been some time since I were involved in the trade over there, things might have changed.
But
Daikin used to have the best after-sales support over there.

Otherwise, between the brands, it's a bit like asking which car is best, Rolls or Bentley... They are both top of the range.

Where in Sweden are you from?

[The Viking]

please see:


http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11828&highlight=brands

OR:http://www.the-viking.eu/eu.html , a whole page for people in your situation.
:cool:

[superswill]

OR:http://www.the-viking.eu/eu.html , a whole page for people in your situation.
:cool:


thankx viking :D

[Billy Ray]

Best Brands?

Most important aspect is to get top quality installation & commissioning.

This is generally where future problems arise from.

Also important aspect is running cost!!

Look for inverter compressor type, R410A refrigerant & high COP or EER or SEER (or whatever it is called now-a-days).

Toshiba offer a Daiseika range of units, these are very energy efficient, also high air purification / pollen filters fitted as standard..

you will pay a little bit more, but will most probably save in running costs later.

most top manufacturers are offering 5-year warranty subject to maintainance.

Billy Ray

[Greengrocer]

I seem to spend my life doing equipment comparrisons for every job we quote. In the main this is to give the customer a spread of options to choose from. No single manufacturer always has the best equipment. Some models from one manufacturer or another are always better than others whether it be price, technical spec, efficiency, low sound levels, physical size - and the list goes on.
Decide what is most important to you and compare the models being offered on that basis. e.g. If the system is for a bedroom low sound levels should be near the top of your list. Happy hunting.

[Makeit go Right]

Particularly for a home, the kind of factors that tend to make the difference (apart from the install costs) are noise and running costs.

Interestingly, when looking at some COP/EER figures for the Daikin and Misti equipment on a recent comparison quotation, these two were - well, not as one would have expected. Quite low, in fact, compared with Sanyo and Fujitsu.

The other factor is appearance. Sadly only LG seem to bother much about this aspect, but let's not open that door.

ALSO, if buying for the UK home, make sure the installer quotes with ONLY 5% VAT on the price. Not 17.5%. Some still charge 17.5% but should not.

[Greengrocer]

Particularly for a home, the kind of factors that tend to make the difference (apart from the install costs) are noise and running costs.

Interestingly, when looking at some COP/EER figures for the Daikin and Misti equipment on a recent comparison quotation, these two were - well, not as one would have expected. Quite low, in fact, compared with Sanyo and Fujitsu.

The other factor is appearance. Sadly only LG seem to bother much about this aspect, but let's not open that door.

ALSO, if buying for the UK home, make sure the installer quotes with ONLY 5% VAT on the price. Not 17.5%. Some still charge 17.5% but should not.

I agree entirely. Sometimes the premium brands are not the most efficient systems - especially if they have been around for more than 18 months e.g. the Fujitsu J series which was the subject of this thread in the begining.
Residential users only have to have a heat pump installed by a reputable contractor to qualify for the 5% VAT - no minimum EER/COP efficiencies apply. As such it's normally price, looks, & sound levels that are the main drivers.
For commercial installations it's a different "kettle of fish". To get the ECA tax breaks the system must be on the Carbon Trust Energy Technology List (ETL) at the time of invoice. To be on the list the system must meet minimum EER/COP levels which change every 2 years. The States have been doing this for years. I'm sure you know all this but others may not.
All of this is why I spend so much time doing multiple equipment selections, prices, checking the ETL listings and covering all the bases to make sure the client is fully aware of their choices. Cheers

[The Viking]

NOTE: His location is "Sweden"...

[eloroncedark]

I've been away but thanks for all advice! Some more questions. It's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries vs Daikin (not Mitsubish Electric).

Somewhere on the Net I've read that some people don't like Heavy Industries. Does it matter that it isn't Electric?

We're planning on cooling 5 rooms. The two main competing options are

1.

1 Daikin 3MKS50 outdoor combined with 3 Daikin FTXS25 indoor + 1 2MKS40 combined with 2 FTXS25. This is a pure inverter based solution

2.

1 Mitsubish H.I. SCM-80ZG-S outdoor driving 2 SKM-35-ZG-S and 2 SKM-25-ZG-S indoor units. This is inverter based. In addition, 1 SRK-20GX-S outdoor combined with 1 SRC-20GX-S indoor. This is on/off -- not inverter.

So the Daikin solution is pure inverterbased with 1+3 and 1+2. The Mitsubishi is 1+4 inverter and 1+1 on/off. Pure inverter sounds better but the Mitsubishi solution is much less expensive. Any advice?

Talking Watts, they all say 60 - 80 will do, and 100 will be extremely good. All solutions reach 100W/sq m.

Noice: Daikin 22-38dB and Mitsubishi 23-36 / 25 - 39 dB. How low do you need to be really quiet in a bedroom?

And yes I am from Sweden not far from Denmark.

Thanks!

[Greengrocer]

I've been away but thanks for all advice! Some more questions. It's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries vs Daikin (not Mitsubish Electric).

Somewhere on the Net I've read that some people don't like Heavy Industries. Does it matter that it isn't Electric?

We're planning on cooling 5 rooms. The two main competing options are

1.

1 Daikin 3MKS50 outdoor combined with 3 Daikin FTXS25 indoor + 1 2MKS40 combined with 2 FTXS25. This is a pure inverter based solution

2.

1 Mitsubish H.I. SCM-80ZG-S outdoor driving 2 SKM-35-ZG-S and 2 SKM-25-ZG-S indoor units. This is inverter based. In addition, 1 SRK-20GX-S outdoor combined with 1 SRC-20GX-S indoor. This is on/off -- not inverter.

So the Daikin solution is pure inverterbased with 1+3 and 1+2. The Mitsubishi is 1+4 inverter and 1+1 on/off. Pure inverter sounds better but the Mitsubishi solution is much less expensive. Any advice?

Talking Watts, they all say 60 - 80 will do, and 100 will be extremely good. All solutions reach 100W/sq m.

Noice: Daikin 22-38dB and Mitsubishi 23-36 / 25 - 39 dB. How low do you need to be really quiet in a bedroom?

And yes I am from Sweden not far from Denmark.

Thanks!

Hi Eloranedark (how did you come up with that handle?).
In my book it doen't matter that's it's Mitsi Heavy & not Electric. It's just like cars: you can want a BMW or MERC but most people drive & are happy with something less expensive. However, a few pointers in favor of the Daikin indoor units:-

1. 5 fan speeds - sleep mode is so quiet you can't hear them running (check the MHi models I think they have only 3 but still v. quiet all the same). Anything below 30dBA is almost inaudible. Not that none of the indoor units will do their rated capacity on low speed. Their cooling capacities are always rated on high speed.
2. Daikin FTXS units have a movement sensor which detects when someone is in the room (switchable on / off). If no movement is detected the room temp is allowed to drift to save energy. Sexy feature which is why you pay a bit more for Daikin. In the real world most clients don't use this feature & for a bedroom you will be asleep and not moving (well, most of the time!!) so it's not a feature you will use.

The 1:4 inverter & 1:1 fixed speed single split will make the overall MHI cost alot less than the 1:3 & 1:2 Daikin interters so you are not really compairing "apples with apples". MHI do not sell the fixed speed model you mention in the UK. However, they do sell a 2kW Inverter SRK20-ZGX Hyper Inverter. This puppy has a cooling EER if 5.41 & heating COP of 5.45!! Quite astonishing. Ask your supplier to give you a price for this over the fixed speed model to see what the different is. My guess is it will still be cheaper than the Daikin combination.

If price is the main driver then go with the MHi systems - Opel VS BMW. If not then you can't go wrong with Daikin - providing it's installed properly (same goes for any make). Just make sure they don't exceed the max pipe runs for each manufacturer.

60-80watts /m2 is normally more than enough cooling for a bedroom (remember, unless you are a vampire and sleep during the day the nightime time ambient temps are cooler so the room heat load is less and the system efficency is higher). I use 100w/m2 to budget for commercial offices during the day. If your systems are coming out at 100w/m2 I would say they are oversized (for a bedroom). Ask your installer / supplied to do a heat load calculation on one of the bedrooms. Also note that for bedrooms you don't need temperatures as low as 21c which can feel possitively cold. If the heat load calcs are done on 23c for an average bedroom (3 x 4m) in a well resonably well insulated building you won't need much more than 1.0kW of cooling (80w/m2). If they are over sized drop the indoor / outdoor combination down a size and same some money.

Hope this helps

[eloroncedark]

Thanks.

'The 1:4 inverter & 1:1 fixed speed single split will make the overall MHI cost alot less than the 1:3 & 1:2 Daikin interters so you are not really compairing "apples with apples".'

True, the MHI price is much lower. And I realize it's not apple with apples. But, ignoring details such as 5 speeds and motion sensors, what can possibly justify such a big price difference? Does the inverter in the 5th room save tons of energy, have much less mechanical failures, make the climate in the room feel much better, ...?

[Greengrocer]

I'll do some price calculations & come back in a while. Since £UK will mean nothing to you I'll endevour to see what the % cost difference is between the two system - in £UK. Irrespective of currency the ratio should be approx. same for you. If it isn't then something else is inflating the Daikin price. What sort of % difference have you got between the two?
BTW are you sure about the model number of the Daikin 3MKXS50? I can only find a 3MKXS52E in my price book. There is a 2MKXS50G but that can only connect to 2 indoor units.
Back in a while.

[Greengrocer]

Another question. Are we talking about Heat Pumps or cooling only for Daikin. The clg only outdoor is a ?MKS & the HP is a ?MKXS. The MHI units only come as heat pumps.

[Greengrocer]

OK. Assuming Daikin Heat pump outdoor units to match the MHI I can only see approx 7-8% diffence in my cost in favour of the MHI system (I assumed a 2kW Hyper Inverter for the 1:1 split). So if you are looking at more than a 10% diffence something else is inflating the price difference. Import taxes? If anything that would affect the MHI system more than Daikin since Daikin manufacturers in Belgium.

[eloroncedark]

Thanks again, you're most helpful.

It's a 3MKS50E (no MXS). It's pure cooling. The indoor unit could be used for both cooling and heating, but the outdoor unit is pure cooling.

I'll double check what's really included before going into the price difference, but it's definitely more than 10% -- and it's only cooling compared to the MHI cooling/heating. Seems strange doesn't it.

[The Viking]

OK
A stupid question but... Why would you go for cooling only?
Even if you got some eco friendly primary heating, considering the low electricity costs in Sweden, air-air heatpumps must be a good backup.

Another thing to mention, there might be differences between the companies that quoted you (other than brand preferences)

You haven't told us where in Sweden you are looking to have this installed but if you are in "Mälardalen", then I could recommend some companies that I know wouldn't rip you off.

[eloroncedark]

Far from Mälardalen, down south in Skåne.

Good point, this is because I was looking for cooling in the summer. Heating already works fine, so I haven't even thought about it. Didn't even know that cooling could be reversible and also generate heating.

But with MHI I do get heating "for free". And with Daikin I can of course ask for it. But Daikin is already more expensive. But I'll look into it. Great! I'm learning! Thanks!

[Greengrocer]

More than 10% price difference seems very strange. The install costs of most manufacturers equipment is vertually the same (assumming like for like equipment) so the only real difference is the cost of the equipment itself.
If we were talking 30/40kW VRV systems I could understand install cost differences of 20-25% but not for small splits or Multi units like you are considering.

[Greengrocer]

Far from Mälardalen, down south in Skåne.

Good point, this is because I was looking for cooling in the summer. Heating already works fine, so I haven't even thought about it. Didn't even know that cooling could be reversible and also generate heating.

But with MHI I do get heating "for free". And with Daikin I can of course ask for it. But Daikin is already more expensive. But I'll look into it. Great! I'm learning! Thanks!

Yes you get the heating for "free" - well not quite but I get your meaning. Cooling only split systems are becoming very rare. Daikin are one of the few manufacturers that make the two options. Most others only offer Heat Pump (cooling or heating) systems. The cost difference between a cooling only and a HP system is only approx. 5-8% so for many manufacyurers it's not worth the extra cost to stock two difference models of outdoor unit.
Go for the heat pump model and have the option of back up heating if you need it. Only thing to remember is that the outdoor unit cannot heat and cool at the same time i.e. one room in heating & the other in cooling both connected to the same outdoor unit. Chances are this won't happen in a bedroom application anyway unless someone in one room sets their controller low & another to a high setpoint - opposing demands.
Let us know the outcome. Nothing worse than a thread like this dissappearing without any further info or conclusion.

[The Viking]

If you got electric heating the additional cost for the reversible/heatpump units will be recouped in the first year.

If you got oil heating, then it depends on the current cost of the oil back in Svedala.

If you got fjärr värme, it will probably be more expensive to run heat pumps but they will be a good backup.

If you heat your house with flis/torv/pellets then it won't be as green but will again be a good easy to use backup, especially when you go away for a couple of days.

[kmr296]

Daikin's heat output at low ambient temps outperforms Mitsi. Ask suppliers for heat discharge temps at low ambients conds, say 0 degrees F