Daikin Altherma

[frank]

I have possibly talked a friend of mine into having his oil fired boiler ripped out and replaced with a Daikin Altherma unit, coupled with a roof mounted solar collector. He is quite interested in future energy savings and this seems to be the latest technology on the market. (basically an air source heat pump). http://www.daikinaltherma.com:8080/index_altherma.jsp?mt=508&taxonomy_id=508&lang=en&site=250

As the system will mostly be for heating the house and sanitary water, cooling is not really considered.

Has anyone had any experience of working with this equipment? Does it do what it says on the box?

As he is a friend, I don't want to mislead him based on the sales hype and I certainly don't want him bending my ear everytime we go for a beer ;)

[jfriman]

Here in sweden is the Altherma a really god solution. Even in the northen part of sweden!

Everybody is saving a lot of energy! So i dont think that your friend will be disapointed.

/ Jfriman

[frank]

Thanks for the feedback Jfriman :)

[nh3wizard]

Feed him 5 or 6 pints and it wont matter:D

[frank]

Feed him 5 or 6 pints and it wont matter:D
5 or 6?
Geez - that's just a MOUTHWASH :D

[DVaider]

Hello, Frank. I have a deal with Daikin stuff. I think that Altherma should be a little bit better than other heat pumps (in case of COP and other technical parameters). But the additional equipment (sanitary tank, EKSOL etc.) make this system very expensive. I advise to your friend to buy the cheaper additional equipment with same characteristics (if he wants to save his money :) )

[jfriman]

Hi, i dont know anything about the prices in Uk, but here in sweden is the Altherma about the same price as the other brands.

But i suppose that your friend is going to change all of his equipment!!

And if the prices are about the same as the other product´s i will think that he is going to save a bit more energy with the Altherma!

Well god luck anyway / Jfriman

[Refrigerologist]

I have possibly talked a friend of mine into having his oil fired boiler ripped out and replaced with a Daikin Altherma unit, coupled with a roof mounted solar collector. He is quite interested in future energy savings and this seems to be the latest technology on the market. (basically an air source heat pump). http://www.daikinaltherma.com:8080/index_altherma.jsp?mt=508&taxonomy_id=508&lang=en&site=250

As the system will mostly be for heating the house and sanitary water, cooling is not really considered.

Has anyone had any experience of working with this equipment? Does it do what it says on the box?

As he is a friend, I don't want to mislead him based on the sales hype and I certainly don't want him bending my ear everytime we go for a beer ;)

Frank, I take it he has underfloor heating installed and not radiators? Or he is going to install underfloor heating?

[frank]

Only in the new extension - back of house. The original house will re-use the existing radiators, but these will have to become low temp radiators

[Krondor]

We installed seversal Altherma's 2 years ago. It seems to work fine, and really saving energy. Though, for my opinion it has 2 weak points:
1. It would be very nice if the Altherma could be used also for pool heating (it would't heat with heat pump above 25 degrees).
2. Its price is very very high.

We have founs some very familiar chineese units. May be thier cop will be a littlle bit lower, but its price is less than a half. Worth considering...

[frank]

We have founs some very familiar chineese units. May be thier cop will be a littlle bit lower, but its price is less than a half. Worth considering...
Thanks Krondor
Do you have any links to the Chinese stuff?

[nike123]

We have founs some very familiar chineese units. May be thier cop will be a littlle bit lower, but its price is less than a half. Worth considering...

Expirence with Chinese products is usualy "no parts and no support". Also worth considering...

[Greengrocer]

Frank. Daikin have a software program for Atherma (selection / running costs / savings etc. Similar to the VRV Express program). This can be downloaded from the Daikin Extranet site which you have to register for first in order log on. Look under software down loads. Failing that if you deal with Space get them to send you a copy. We are a Daikin D1 partner but have no experiece of Altherma system because we don't do much residential work.
You may also want to take a look at Hitachi's "AquaFree" system - split outdoor unit & indoor Hydro-box set up (can be used for swimming pools also). Info is on their UK site under Domestic Heating.
Mitsi Electric also do an air to water heatpump Boiler now which is single packaged unit with only plumbing required - aimed at the "wet boys". Info is on their web site also.
A lot of heating companies are getting in on the Heat scene also. Check out the Newheat website & of course there is Calorex.
Daikin system is probably the most integrated of all & now has a solar colector add on available too.
Sorry I can't provide links as I am a new boy & havn't met my minimum No. of posts yet.

[Krondor]

Frank, here is the link to the chinese site that i found:

http://www.sero.com.cn/en/products001.html?proTypeID=13330&proTypeName=Heat%20Pumps

if you look at the DC inverter series (air to water) its very similiar to the Altherma.
Another very interesting product is: Heat pump to solar energy, however i like it less since it uses R407, which i like less then R410.

They say that their western Europe market is very large...

[frank]

Frank, here is the link to the chinese site that i found:

http://www.sero.com.cn/en/products001.html?proTypeID=13330&proTypeName=Heat%20Pumps

if you look at the DC inverter series (air to water) its very similiar to the Altherma.
Another very interesting product is: Heat pump to solar energy, however i like it less since it uses R407, which i like less then R410.

They say that their western Europe market is very large...
Krondor
Thanks for the link. I must say that the air source kit looks extremely like the Daikin VRV stuff.

[frank]

Greengrocer

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

I'm registered on the Daikin extranet but must confess, I haven't looked at the Altherma on there. I have looked on the Space site, but this only seems to catalogue past installations.

Good news is though, the friend of mine has given me the go ahead to do the install - watch this space.

It will be the latest kit with the solar panels.

[bobjob]

Daikin have now signed an agreement with Wolsley to market Altherma
and start training courses for them this week.

they will soon be on sale at all Plumb centres


regards bob

[Greengrocer]

Daikin have now signed an agreement with Wolsley to market Altherma
and start training courses for them this week.

they will soon be on sale at all Plumb centres


regards bob

Oh dear. There goes the neighborhood. Plumbers with vac pumps.:eek: I guess it was inevitable since the system is primarily "wet".

[stuartwking]

That does not sound like a good idea,.

[frank]

Well, an update.

The job is definitely a goer, so the kit is now on order.

The Solar Panel man is providing 2 x evacuated tube panels rated at 1.5kw each, and he is installing them for me - leave it to the experts, that's what I say!

I'm down at Guildford for a training course this week so when I get back on Friday I should be raring to go.

Pictures to follow, but this may be a few weeks away.

[jfriman]

Well, an update.

The job is definitely a goer, so the kit is now on order.

The Solar Panel man is providing 2 x evacuated tube panels rated at 1.5kw each, and he is installing them for me - leave it to the experts, that's what I say!

I'm down at Guildford for a training course this week so when I get back on Friday I should be raring to go.

Pictures to follow, but this may be a few weeks away.

Hi.

Just a quick question!

Do you have any datasheets or other good information for the solarpanels? I am interested in information about what kind of solarpanels, sizes of them, and how to connect them with best results!

/ Jfriman

[frank]

Hi.

Just a quick question!

Do you have any datasheets or other good information for the solarpanels? I am interested in information about what kind of solarpanels, sizes of them, and how to connect them with best results!

/ Jfriman
Sorry no. I'm leaving the solar panel installation to a specialist.

[Electrocoolman]

Hi Jfriman,

Have a look at

www.navitron.org.uk

[jfriman]

Hi Jfriman,

I Had to remove the adress to post this message!:mad:

Thank´s, but im after a complete solution just for the Altherma. But thank you again for the link!:)

[kaspastarr]

i work at daikin and i can tell you it is a good peice of kit. GET IT
64

[Rhew]

Hi Frank
I have had a enquiry today about the use of the altherma system with solar pannels and was wondering how you were getting along with yours Frank

Rhew

[frank]

Hi Frank
I have had a enquiry today about the use of the altherma system with solar panels and was wondering how you were getting along with yours Frank

Rhew

Hi Rhew

Well, I've been there all day today finishing off the plumbing side and the solar panel guy came to visit so we could discuss the interface between the two.

As this is a new one to both of us, I think we did OK.

He's coming on Tuesday to complete the solar installation and I've left him some 22mm copper stubs to connect to.

I managed today to get the customer some hot water and heating and as soon as the solar is finished, we can shout for the commissioning guy from down Guildford to come up and explain exactly how it should be set up.

I'll report back later. So far, so good. Seems to work spot on. It took the 200 litre tank 40 minutes from cold to get up to 55C.

[Rhew]

I`ll look foreward to your report frank, I`ll be getting in touch with daikin monday for as much info on sizing etc that I can lay my hands on. I think this will be a growing market here in the UK.

[Rhew]

Hi Frank
Out of intrest which solar pannel did you use.

Cheers
Rhew

[frank]

The new evacuated tube.

At 6.15 tonight, the panel was showing 49C temp in the rain and cloudy skies - amazing!!!!

The solar panel lads finished the install today and commissioned.

Just got to get the lads up now from Guildford to commission the whole system properly.

[sinewave]

Hi Frank,

Anymore feedback yet?

As you may be aware I am/was looking at the Mitsubishi version of this the Ecodan however for my size of house the 9kW Mitsi just won't cut it.


What size of house can the Daikin unit accomodate comfortably and is it only viable combined with solar power due to the low flow temps?

[Rhew]

Sinewave
The altherma states in their price list that it goes up to 16kw heating 13.10 cooling.

[frank]

Hi Frank,

Anymore feedback yet?

As you may be aware I am/was looking at the Mitsubishi version of this the Ecodan however for my size of house the 9kW Mitsi just won't cut it.


What size of house can the Daikin unit accomodate comfortably and is it only viable combined with solar power due to the low flow temps?
Hi Sinewave

From what I know at this stage (need more training) the Altherma can heat and cool independently without solar panels. the solar add on just makes it more energy efficient, and if, going by what I saw yesterday, free water heating is what you are interested in, then this is surely the way to go.

The cooling operation looks to be rather difficult in the UK climate, and I'm told, is more suited to warmer climates (i.e.Spain).

have a read of this http://www.daikinaltherma.com:8080/index_altherma.jsp?mt=508&taxonomy_id=508&lang=en&site=250

[Reefer1]

Does anyone know what the heat exchangers are made out of? Can they handle swimming pool chemicals?

[frank]

The one I cut my head on was stainless steel so I guess it would be OK for chlorine. ;)

[pistebasher]

Browsing the web looking for info on the Daikin Altherma and I trip over you folks!
So apologies for this, my first post! I promise not to be much trouble in future!


I'm just laying the foundations for a 'log cabin' bungalow for a customer near Horsham and I'm looking for a 'Part L' compliant way of heating the DHW and CH.
The suggested plan is to fit an oil fired boiler for dhw + ch radiators and then a wood burner to comply with the 'renewables' aspect. As the project builder, this seems daft to me, so hence I'm looking for a 'greener' and more sustainable alternative.
I would guestimate the above installation to be around £5000-£6000 so I'm wondering how a heat pump system might compare?
As there is plenty of land around the building, a ground source system would also be applicable.
Solar panels could also be an option, but presume are costly?

[frank]

Have a look at this site http://www.daikinaltherma.com:8080/index_altherma.jsp?mt=508&taxonomy_id=508&lang=en&site=250

The solar panels for a 200ltr tank should cost around £2500 + vat fitted or thereabouts.

[pistebasher]

Thanks for that.
Have emailed an enquiry to 'Space Air'.

[Slim R410a]

The new evacuated tube.

At 6.15 tonight, the panel was showing 49C temp in the rain and cloudy skies - amazing!!!!

The solar panel lads finished the install today and commissioned.

Just got to get the lads up now from Guildford to commission the whole system properly.

Hi Frank,

Very interesting thread, as I do a lot of domestic splits.
Is the install fully commissioned now? Do you have any pics etc of the install??

Cheers

[frank]

The install is now commissioned, but - there are 3 radiators still to fit as they can only be done as the building work progresses (plasterers etc.)

I've got to re-visit and insulate the sanitary pipework (armaflex) and then install these rads. This will obviously mean draining down and then re-filling but it should take no more than a day.

I'll take some pictures then.

[rebellad]

Any update on this Frank, I am looking at this system for a new build and would be interested to know how it's going??

[frank]

Hi rebel

Yes, the job was finally completed and the customer was more than happy.

He tells me that he gets home from work, runs a bath full of lovely hot water (via the solar panels). gets in it and then says to himself - hey, I've worked all day - but this is FREE !! :D

We have now got a couple more installs to do and I'm shortly (end of August) going on the Daikin Training course and following that we can apply for the 'Approved Installer Status' which will allow the customer to apply for the Government Grant of £900.
This should give us an edge when quoting.

The enquiries are stacking up nicely at the moment. I think this will take off, just like central heating in the Seventies.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to take any piccies - sorry.

Note to self - 'must try harder next time' :)

[1torr]

Went on the Altherma training this week and I'm very impressed.
Reefer 1, as for chlorine you would have to have a seperate pool pump and heat x.Daikin would design system. Cheers Kev.

[susib]

Hi Frank, I am a selfbuilder looking for full plumbing service to include air source heat pump and underfloor heating. Can you help? Thanks
Susib

[rebellad]

Hi rebel

Yes, the job was finally completed and the customer was more than happy.

He tells me that he gets home from work, runs a bath full of lovely hot water (via the solar panels). gets in it and then says to himself - hey, I've worked all day - but this is FREE !! :D

We have now got a couple more installs to do and I'm shortly (end of August) going on the Daikin Training course and following that we can apply for the 'Approved Installer Status' which will allow the customer to apply for the Government Grant of £900.
This should give us an edge when quoting.

The enquiries are stacking up nicely at the moment. I think this will take off, just like central heating in the Seventies.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to take any piccies - sorry.

Note to self - 'must try harder next time' :)

Hi again frank, thanks for getting back to me on this. I was just wondering do you know how your client has got on bills wise so fair with the altherma, has his electricity bill been adversely affected by it??

[frank]

Funny you should mention it.

The customer came around my house last night and popped in to say Hi (he's a friend of one of my neighbours).

He told me that since I commissioned and installed the kW hour meter for him, he's noticed that the meter has now clocked up 200 kWh's, since May.

At 10p average cost per kWh, that equates to around £20 !!!

He says that the solar panels are a godsend and that "anyone thinking of having air source heat pump fitted must need their head examined if they don't incorporate solar."

Not my words..................

[rebellad]

Funny you should mention it.

The customer came around my house last night and popped in to say Hi (he's a friend of one of my neighbours).

He told me that since I commissioned and installed the kW hour meter for him, he's noticed that the meter has now clocked up 200 kWh's, since May.

At 10p average cost per kWh, that equates to around £20 !!!

He says that the solar panels are a godsend and that "anyone thinking of having air source heat pump fitted must need their head examined if they don't incorporate solar."

Not my words..................

That sounds unbelievable Frank!!
Unfortunately my house is west facing so I am currently trying to figure out is there any way I can install them elsewhere. I am getting the Solar kit on the water tank regardless so it can be added later on if needs be.