Ammonia in a supermarket

[750 Valve]

Anyone ever heard of a supermarket with ammonia on site? I realise there will be none using it in a DX application but are there any out there with a secondary system, say NH3 chilling glycol which is then used on the shopfloor? I would think it has to have been done in a retail environment somewhere in the world.

[Dr._Fleck]

Sainsburys at Worthing, UK. Did have a system in about 10 years ago, can't remember much about it but i went down to help the engineers with a big problem they had with it. Something had contaminated the system, we had to take all the jumbo solenoids off the cases and clean them.

[iceburg]

:eek: Never heard of any here in the US. I have been to 49 states and to many supermarket chains to count. None in Bermuda either.

[Keef_Controls]

Sainsburys at Worthing, UK. Did have a system in about 10 years ago, can't remember much about it but i went down to help the engineers with a big problem they had with it. Something had contaminated the system, we had to take all the jumbo solenoids off the cases and clean them.

Horsham to be precise - It was a nightmare to begin with. I think it used to leak massive amounts of glycol (i remember there were always loads of barrells of the stuff in the plant room). The control system was an RCS / Cylon hybrid and did'nt really work properly. But eventually most of the problems were ironed out - until Westwards lost the contract, then it all went to pot again. Its been replaced now i beleive with a conventional system.

[coolhibby1875]

hi the system at sainsburys you refer to they put one in sainsburys kirkaldy scotland at the same time the only problem is they still use it there i work on it all the time it is a nightmare the glycol eats the brass on the valves something terrible

[Chunk]

Yeah it was Horsham it was only ripped out recently.When we first took it on there was no secondary refrigerant left in the system and we found the majority of it was going down the cases drains due to leaks on the valves.A few major nh3 leaks in the plant room as well mainly from shaft seals.boy am i glad its gone!! Chunk.

[Magoo]

Why do people with-out ammonia experience apply ammonia systems.
1. Glycol leaks, check installation methods.
2. Shaft seal leaks. Aligments issues.

What is going to happen when CO2 is the norm?
magoo

[Josip]

Hi, Magoo :)


Why do people with-out ammonia experience apply ammonia systems.
1. Glycol leaks, check installation methods.
2. Shaft seal leaks. Aligments issues.

What is going to happen when CO2 is the norm?
magoo

Why....to make some profit...doesn't matter how much will cost repairing later....they are not going to pay for damage done.... maybe I am not right but similar situations were/are here in my country... you know... he is my cousin he is not from that trade, but he knows someone ...etc...or at least let's try to see what will be:eek:

For CO2 is hard to predict anything..... maybe again trial and error.... most probable;)

Best regards, Josip :)

[US Iceman]

The supermarket industry has about 50-60 years of experience doing the same thing almost the same way. The biggest changes I have seen occurred when the refrigeration systems went from a single condensing unit per case lineup to parallel rack systems.

The refrigerants were all one of the "*****s" using back-pressure valves and head pressure controls with air-cooled condensers.

Now you see secondary fluids being used, CO2, ammonia, and even some hydrocarbons possibly.

With this much change in technology occurring in such a short time span I am sure there will be a lot of opportunities for people who can properly fix a system.;)

Since we don't use such refrigerants as sulphur dioxide or methyl chloride any more people have forgotten how to work with refrigerants that have a definite smell. And, as the variation in system designs begin to show up in the public stores we may even see a return to water-cooled systems or those using evaporative condensers.

If we have as many problems with refrigerant leaks as I suspect there are what will happen when we start to see water cooled systems again? Trying to figure out the water treatment systems (and suppliers) for water cooled equipment is even worse than looking for refrigerant leaks.:rolleyes:

[750 Valve]

With this much change in technology occurring in such a short time span I am sure there will be a lot of opportunities for people who can properly fix a system.;)


You'd think so but not over here, seems to be hit and hope - hot as in smash in a system and never review the good, bad or ugly with it and move on to the next one and hope - hope all our service techs can fix the stuff without any additional training, and those that are doing the training don't seem to be worth any extra dollars at this point in time.

I guess it'll take a few major crash and burn jobs for them to realise you just can't pick a decent fridgy off a tree let a lone an experienced guy with confidence in all the facets, *****, ammonia, co2, glycol, water cooled, etc. Maybe they will pay in the end but they ain't planning on it anytime soon thats for sure!!

Thanks for the responses guys, we have an extremely green site coming up soon and just wondered how many others were out there in supermarket applications.