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SteinarN
21-02-2008, 12:11 AM
Vector is by my opinion the best transport refrigeration unit made. But, and it is a very big but, it is possible to write a MUCH better software! Both regarding to cooling capacity but even more so to fuel consumtion. To get that don it is necesarry to have the program used when writing the file which is converted to the bex file, as well as the original file used to make the bex file.

Does anyone here have any information on getting hand on that file and that program?

absolute-zero
21-02-2008, 02:54 AM
Vector is by my opinion the best transport refrigeration unit made. But, and it is a very big but, it is possible to write a MUCH better software! Both regarding to cooling capacity but even more so to fuel consumtion. To get that don it is necesarry to have the program used when writing the file which is converted to the bex file, as well as the original file used to make the bex file.

Does anyone here have any information on getting hand on that file and that program?

I agree the vector is a serious unit for the serious consumer... It has much technolgy intergrated into it, much like a ship going refrigerated container unit.

Electronic TXV
Modulation Valves
Variable fan speeds
Subcoolers
Electronic Charging System
And the list of goes on
I doubt very highly that we could write a bex that can offer more cooling capacity and offer lower fuel consumtion at the same time,, these two things do not exsist at the same time, as there is always some sort of trade off,, whether it be compressor life, main AC alternator life and all the loads that contribute to capacity increments.

My advise would be to let the engineers worry about it... If you want to tinker with it, you may try to get fuel improvemnts in intellisets settings via PMCIA cards from your local CTC dealer, along with Reefermanager.

I know the of the file you are looking for but regretfully do not have the file to share!!!!!!!!

Sorry buddy....

Regards, A-Z

SteinarN
21-02-2008, 08:33 AM
I agree the vector is a serious unit for the serious consumer... It has much technolgy intergrated into it, much like a ship going refrigerated container unit.

Electronic TXV
Modulation Valves
Variable fan speeds
Subcoolers
Electronic Charging System
And the list of goes onI doubt very highly that we could write a bex that can offer more cooling capacity and offer lower fuel consumtion at the same time,, these two things do not exsist at the same time, as there is always some sort of trade off,, whether it be compressor life, main AC alternator life and all the loads that contribute to capacity increments.

My advise would be to let the engineers worry about it... If you want to tinker with it, you may try to get fuel improvemnts in intellisets settings via PMCIA cards from your local CTC dealer, along with Reefermanager.

I know the of the file you are looking for but regretfully do not have the file to share!!!!!!!!

Sorry buddy....

Regards, A-Z


Actually i am a Carrier dealer. http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

I didnt have in mind the settings like the economy mode, compressor run and stop times in continous economy mode, run and stop times in auto start/stop mode, temp limits for restart and so forth.

What i have in mind is the actual working cyclus of the unit such as this:
When pulling box temp down from lets say 30 degres C to frozen before loading the goods, the compressor runs in 6 cyl with a CSP of maybe 2-2,5 bar, evaporator pressure of lets say 7-10 bar and a low SMV setting to limit the powerconsumtion of the compressor. This is a HIGHLY inefficient mode of operation regarding to the COP of the refrigerant system(compressor).

The proper mode of operation with high box temperatures should be to run the compressor in 4 cylinders, and even in extreme cases run in only two cyl.

The reason for this is as follows:
When you unload two cylinders at high box temp, the CSP instantly increase to roughly 4 bar based on the pressures mentioned above. The evaporator pressure increases slightly and initially entail slightly lower cooling capasity. However the powerconsumtion of the compressor decreases considerably, enabling the SMV to begin opening. When the SMV has opened slightly more the evaporator pressure lowers to the previously level, and the cooling capasity is therfore unchanged compared to the 6 cyl mode. But the compressor powerconsumtion is still greatly reduced and this reduction is in the 30% range. Note that the amperage draw of the compressor is NOT linear with the powerconsumtion. The SMV can open more and enable increased coolingcapasity compared with 6 cyl mode and still have lower powerconsumtion than the 6 cyl mode.

This is one example of a not optimal mode of operation. There is many more examples of this. Such changes to the mode of operation was what i had in mind when i talked about changing the BEX file, not the dealer configurable options. http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

absolute-zero
21-02-2008, 07:38 PM
Actually i am a Carrier dealer. http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

I didnt have in mind the settings like the economy mode, compressor run and stop times in continous economy mode, run and stop times in auto start/stop mode, temp limits for restart and so forth.

What i have in mind is the actual working cyclus of the unit such as this:
When pulling box temp down from lets say 30 degres C to frozen before loading the goods, the compressor runs in 6 cyl with a CSP of maybe 2-2,5 bar, evaporator pressure of lets say 7-10 bar and a low SMV setting to limit the powerconsumtion of the compressor. This is a HIGHLY inefficient mode of operation regarding to the COP of the refrigerant system(compressor).

The proper mode of operation with high box temperatures should be to run the compressor in 4 cylinders, and even in extreme cases run in only two cyl.

The reason for this is as follows:
When you unload two cylinders at high box temp, the CSP instantly increase to roughly 4 bar based on the pressures mentioned above. The evaporator pressure increases slightly and initially entail slightly lower cooling capasity. However the powerconsumtion of the compressor decreases considerably, enabling the SMV to begin opening. When the SMV has opened slightly more the evaporator pressure lowers to the previously level, and the cooling capasity is therfore unchanged compared to the 6 cyl mode. But the compressor powerconsumtion is still greatly reduced and this reduction is in the 30% range. Note that the amperage draw of the compressor is NOT linear with the powerconsumtion. The SMV can open more and enable increased coolingcapasity compared with 6 cyl mode and still have lower powerconsumtion than the 6 cyl mode.

This is one example of a not optimal mode of operation. There is many more examples of this. Such changes to the mode of operation was what i had in mind when i talked about changing the BEX file, not the dealer configurable options. http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Greetings Steinar,
Happy to see another TTC goo roo such as your self here thinking outside of the little box.

CTC dealer Eig!!! good for you!!!!!!

I dont belong to either one TK or CTC, just call me the free lancer...;)

Now on to the thread!!!!!!!!!

I understood perfectly well what you were asking for,, aside from the programmble features..:):D

You are only considering the COP with no regards to COT, this is an important part when writing theses bex, algorithm instuctions to assure maximum and safe and optimal compressor temperatures along with safe optimal operating pressures.

The engineers have my respect, as to devlop a TTC unit than can operate in any extreme climate condition, basically buy the unit, take it out of the box and install with out modifying or altering it to meet all specific global region, fleet or ambient conditions.

It would be IMHO, if you were to change the algortithm in the way you want, you would overheat the compressor, causing a slow death to the unit.

If we regulate load through SMV and cut off refrigerant to the compressor, compressor damage will result, if we take the unloaders of the equation the same demise will result. These are both extremely important parts in any refrigeration system.

The engineers had things in mind when they wrote the bex, they have R&D the unit for several years in all extreme climate conditons, to determine what set of instructions will be best for the unit to operate safely and effeciently with out jeopardizing the machine and its reliability.

Maybe you should contact the engineers in Athens Georgia, USA with your thoughts and findings, and maybe they can simulate along with R&D your idea.

Maybe it will be ok and we will have an new bex.. instruction file wrote.:)

I hope this helps.....

A-Z

SteinarN
21-02-2008, 10:49 PM
Greetings Steinar,
Happy to see another TTC goo roo such as your self here thinking outside of the little box.
Thanks!:):)



I dont belong to either one TK or CTC, just call me the free lancer...;)
Well, i'm a little bit unthrustworty also ;)


I understood perfectly well what you were asking for,, aside from the programmble features..:):D

You are only considering the COP with no regards to COT
With COP i ment Coefficient Of Performance.
Did you read it as Compresor Operation Pressure?

It was two alternative mode of operation, at high ambient and high box temperature pulldown which i described in the previous posts. The CTC alternative consist of 6 cyl and throtled SMV, lets say 20%, whereas my alternative consist of 4 cyl or even 2 cyl at very high box temperatures and less throtteled SMV which give slightly higher cooling capacity on monotemp, higher increase in capacity on multitemp, lower fuelconsumtion and considerably lower discharge gas temperature.

Try this yourselves: High ambient, open the dors, run the unit on cool, let it acheive stable conditions, monitor AC1, AC2, CDT, EVP, CSP and delta t evaporator (air out - air in). Then unplug the SMV so the micro cant change this value anymore, connect 12V to one unloader and monitor the changes on those parameters i mentioned. Also notice the change in the load of the dieselengine. You will be surpriced!

absolute-zero
22-02-2008, 08:57 AM
Thanks!:):)


Well, i'm a little bit unthrustworty also ;)


With COP i ment Coefficient Of Performance.
Did you read it as Compresor Operation Pressure?

It was two alternative mode of operation, at high ambient and high box temperature pulldown which i described in the previous posts. The CTC alternative consist of 6 cyl and throtled SMV, lets say 20%, whereas my alternative consist of 4 cyl or even 2 cyl at very high box temperatures and less throtteled SMV which give slightly higher cooling capacity on monotemp, higher increase in capacity on multitemp, lower fuelconsumtion and considerably lower discharge gas temperature.

Try this yourselves: High ambient, open the dors, run the unit on cool, let it acheive stable conditions, monitor AC1, AC2, CDT, EVP, CSP and delta t evaporator (air out - air in). Then unplug the SMV so the micro cant change this value anymore, connect 12V to one unloader and monitor the changes on those parameters i mentioned. Also notice the change in the load of the dieselengine. You will be surpriced!

Ok I understand better now, of what you are saying... all the mixed lingo and abbreviations, between the two main lands, got my mind boggled...:D

Have you talked to CTC vector engineers on your findings?

I beleive they have a program called Tech-Tips, that allows techs or whom ever post there abnormal or interesting findings from feild expeirences..

I know TK engineers along with product sales and service mangers rely alot on field feed back and reviews, from many much like yourself and I...to make the necessary improvements or enhancements to the product..

I actually took part in suppling the information thus creating new instructions of 1564 revision in the upt for code 31 issues, in self powered truck units... It was small change but problem was on going I studied and documented what was causing it, I got in contact with my TK DSM and the product service manager of the TK factory with all my detailed findings,, the next month later wham bam thank you mam another Bulletin and eprom 1564 was born.

Long story short is always good to work with your product support representatives,, as they will be best to help resolve and fix issues world wide...

A-Z

SteinarN
22-02-2008, 10:33 AM
A-Z, i've got the impression it's hard to get initiated changes to the units. I've had some issues for truck units in 7 years which they didnt get fixed. A solenoid valve was to big so it didnt close when it should do. Thereby loosing hotgas heating and defrost. I started modify that valve 7 years ago, in orders to get "my" units to work properly, and told them exactly what the problem was, but they didnt do anything. Now they have come up with an other make valve which has serious problems alike.

I've been in touch with some people in Denmark which is the head of the scandinavian division. Maybe i should go up higher in the system......

absolute-zero
25-02-2008, 06:49 AM
A-Z, i've got the impression it's hard to get initiated changes to the units. I've had some issues for truck units in 7 years which they didnt get fixed. A solenoid valve was to big so it didnt close when it should do. Thereby loosing hotgas heating and defrost. I started modify that valve 7 years ago, in orders to get "my" units to work properly, and told them exactly what the problem was, but they didnt do anything. Now they have come up with an other make valve which has serious problems alike.

I've been in touch with some people in Denmark which is the head of the scandinavian division. Maybe i should go up higher in the system......

Yeah sometimes you have to find the right people that care about correcting the feild issues. Some issues may not go any further than a phone call or an email, As sometimes this may result in more leg work for some, and at there moment in schedule they may be trying to fry bigger fish..

I will see if i can find that document that will allow you to submit field issues , that go directly to the people which are eager to recieve that type of information.