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sinewave
13-02-2008, 08:44 PM
Anyone had any experience of these or has speced one yet.


Might be interested in instaling one in my own house! :D

refaircon
13-02-2008, 09:03 PM
i have put one of these in on a bc box system to run a under floor heating system
mitsi were a bit unsure of it s control side

Electrocoolman
13-02-2008, 10:22 PM
Have you seen the literature on the mitsubishi website?....its makes interesting reading.

All the Japanese manufacturers are producing similar offerings, some on R410 and some on R744 (CO2)....they are, as usual, leading the market.

I would like to see one in action and there are some very interesting principles, but I still have reservations on the overall economics of these compared to a boiler. They say that they cost about the same as a modern boiler to install, but I would expect a boiler to last some 15 years. A compressor going down in one of these units would severely test the economic equation!

Now what I WOULD like to see is an Airconditioning system that has a heat reclaim exchanger built in....In summer you could get the majority of your hot water for free.

Thermatech
13-02-2008, 11:26 PM
There really should be no reason for any commercial building with any dx air conditioning to have boilers providing hot water during summer time.
Retro fit desuperheater to comp discharge to supply free hot water.
At least Mitsubishi electric are doing heat pump boilers which can be fitted like any other indoor unit to the R2 City Multi heat recovery system. If the system is in cooling only mode then you get free hot water. If the system is heating then you still get hot water from outside air heat pump cycle.
There are 1000's of City Multi systems installed in the uk over the last 16 years.
So why not retro fit to all of them & scrap the boilers ???

Think of all the buildings you work in & all the computer room cooling dx systems throwing vast quanties of heat away 24/7 !!!

I was on a site the other day,,, massive office block about 100 City Multi indoor units, about 20 cooling only outdoor units. Boilers & perimiter radiator heating system. January & out side ambient less than 5 deg C.Been installed obout 8 years.

You know what is going to follow dont you.

Heating system on, radiators red hot, City Multi systems running like the clappers to cool offices which were being heated by the radiators.

Customer admitted this was a waist of energy & have submitted proposals to upgrade to energy efficent system but no funds available for this financial year.

On the domestic front we should see the CO2 heat pump water heaters coming to europe soon which should be interesting, but it would be good to get some feed back form the japanese service engineers who have been doing maintenance on these things for the last 6 or 7 years.

Lc_shi
14-02-2008, 08:57 AM
interesing topic but there are not good study report on that. Many article says it's saving energy but why it's not used widely.

sinewave
14-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Yes I have seen the literature on the website and we've been sent the bumf direct from Mitsi in Manchester as one of their 'Approved Installers'.

I'm just waiting on a reply from an email I've sent to their local Sales Rep with more info and costings etc.



Maybe I could skank a subsidised install in return for use of my home as a example! :D

davej
14-02-2008, 10:38 PM
Hi refaircon, can i ask what water flow temps were you getting from the unit?

Chris Burton
28-02-2008, 11:09 PM
Hi guys, just in the process of installing Daikin Altherma system, i will keep you posted on how it's going.

techguy
12-03-2008, 03:16 AM
Now what I WOULD like to see is an Airconditioning system that has a heat reclaim exchanger built in....In summer you could get the majority of your hot water for free.[/QUOTE]

SANYO GHP System all 2 pipe outdoors over 28KW can supply hotwater at 75 degrees C in cooling mode and heating mode when external ambient is above 10 degrees C

Have a look at one might make u very happy

TG

sinewave
01-06-2008, 04:16 PM
The reason I was look at the ecodan is there is no Gas where I live and Oil has gone through the roof. I'm going to replaceing the whole central heating and water system anyway so now is a good time for a change.

However there seems to be a problem in that I need the 14kW unit which Mitsi are still developing so it looks like I'll have to look at alternatives as I need it sorted really before the end of summer.

Any other ideas?

The Viking
01-06-2008, 05:15 PM
There are lots of different options if you search in the Nordic or Swiss markets.

THIS (http://www.octopus.tm/eng/index.htm) is an interesting option.

Otherwise you got more traditional stuff like THIS (http://www.nibe.com/default_eng.asp), THIS (http://www.euronom.se/159_Sitemap), or THAT (http://www.ctcvarme.se/)

Remember, abroad this type of heatpumps is old trusted technology. And if you are redesigning the whole lot you will be able to drop the flow temps, thus giving you more options for the heatpump.


Good hunting.

frank
01-06-2008, 07:46 PM
The reason I was look at the ecodan is there is no Gas where I live and Oil has gone through the roof. I'm going to replaceing the whole central heating and water system anyway so now is a good time for a change.

However there seems to be a problem in that I need the 14kW unit which Mitsi are still developing so it looks like I'll have to look at alternatives as I need it sorted really before the end of summer.

Any other ideas?

Does your estimate of 14kw include the hot water?

the Daikin Altherma might be of interest as these go up to 12 kw. Do your heat loss calcs based on 40w/m2, this ignores the hot water storage but it is how to size for the Altherma.
The one I've just installed seems to be the dogs dangly bits and I wish now that I hadn't just replaced my old gas fired boiler with a new combi unit. :(

sinewave
02-06-2008, 11:48 PM
To be honest Frank I've not sized it my self, I got Mitsi Tech Engineer out from Manchester to have a look.

They currently have the 9kW unit installed at their MD's 3/4 Deb Gaff Down Souff and it does the Heating & the Water with a pressurised Heat Store.

Yes the flow temps are lower at a max of 55 degrees which means oversized Rads or Underfloor heating.

Not heard of the Daikin alternative will have to have a look but to be honest I'm becomming a bit dispondent with the whole idea and may just plumb for LPG anyway!

sinewave
04-06-2008, 05:57 PM
Anyone else got any experience with the Daikin unit or Mitsi?

krychek
15-06-2008, 10:08 PM
Ecodan range is quite small, DAikin offer wider range from 5 - 16kw.

Also Mitsi uses Gledhill for the bolier side (ewwww) and the controls are by Graslin (very awkward to use).

THe ecodan as far as i am aware utilises outside water connections, hence glycol will be required - which is going to affect COP's, plus maybe even a risk of freezing if not enough glycol used.

Third Large and heavier than Altherma outside unit as Altherm utilises an internal Box housing pump, heat exchanger and expansion vessel which is why you dont need glycol.....

COP's i believe based on same flow and return temps are probaby 10 - 20 % better.

Both units from respected Manufacturers, so i suppose its down to the ususal technical factors and personal choice.

Hope this helps.

Budicus
01-10-2008, 04:53 PM
Do your heat loss calcs based on 40w/m2, [/quote]

If you were doing you heat loss calcs based on 40w/m2 I would be worried...That would exceed new build regulations by 5w/m2, and that is as rare as hens teeth in a retrofit and very rare in a new build...

Sorry to say it but if you do it on 40w/m2 your heat pump will be too small and your running costs would be much higher than they should be.

frank
01-10-2008, 09:31 PM
Got to agree.

Since I've been on the Altherma training course, I learned that it's now based on 50w/m2.

Paul2uall
03-12-2008, 11:34 PM
Any more updates to this thread yet? Hope there are some good reports to come as I am in the process of fitting the Ecodan into my house! Christ I'm cold!
*note to self, change of home heating system to be done in summer from now on!*
:D

krychek
04-12-2008, 01:14 AM
lol, u did read my post sinewave didnt you, and yet you actually still might be colder still come Jan !!
I know of consultant who has just ripped out the ecdan...why.....couldnt reach the flow temp in low ambient !!

anyway goodluck ;-)

back2space
04-12-2008, 03:18 PM
Oh dear that is not good. It is very cold out now.

Daikin=Overated
17-12-2008, 08:30 PM
Do your heat loss calcs based on 40w/m2,

If you were doing you heat loss calcs based on 40w/m2 I would be worried...That would exceed new build regulations by 5w/m2, and that is as rare as hens teeth in a retrofit and very rare in a new build...

Sorry to say it but if you do it on 40w/m2 your heat pump will be too small and your running costs would be much higher than they should be.[/quote]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct. The latest Daikin advice is based on 50w per m2!!

I have attended both training courses for the Ecodan and Altherma. My username aside the Daikin is a far more versatile product with the slight upper hand on the tried and tested front too!

The other disadvantage to EcoDan is that the outdoor unit is a packaged unit that couples to hot/cold water supply pipes only-no interconnecting refrigeration pipes to indoor unit as with Altherma. Mitsubishi state that a qualified plumber to GNVQ level three or some crap must have commissioned this side of the system. This presents warranty issues etc should us A/C chaps get on board. That personally turned me off the product-not to mention that the indoor/outdoor unit is massive!!

Altherma has cooling options, a dedicated hydro indoor box (size of a compact combi boiler)interconnected via refrigeration copper piping. And the water tanks have solar interconnectivity options (again these are more slimline than the EcoDans water storage).

You must have a safe handling certificate and have attended the Altherma training course to purchase this kit through Daikin I was recently advised!

I'm also fitting my first Altherma system to a 4 bed in Surrey. We're ditching the gas supply there altogether making savings of ££££'s. I shall do my best to keep you posted.

brunstar
04-02-2009, 12:14 AM
hey guys, heat pumps are the way it is going now and if it is applied correctly it will work well.
In relation to each property we must do an accurate heat load calculation on each property as they will all be different.
Also when you are sizing it it is not just about the capacity that is required, make sure that you size them at -2 min to ensure you have that capacity when needed for the best operation.
The Altherma is a good option, make sure you do the training course so that you don't apply it incorrectly.

falkirk heat
02-03-2009, 08:32 PM
Anyone had any experience of these or has speced one yet.


Might be interested in instaling one in my own house! :D
yes ihave installed three units

falkirk heat
02-03-2009, 08:36 PM
Hi refaircon, can i ask what water flow temps were you getting from the unit?
55 degrees max depending on ambient temp

falkirk heat
02-03-2009, 08:46 PM
The reason I was look at the ecodan is there is no Gas where I live and Oil has gone through the roof. I'm going to replaceing the whole central heating and water system anyway so now is a good time for a change.

However there seems to be a problem in that I need the 14kW unit which Mitsi are still developing so it looks like I'll have to look at alternatives as I need it sorted really before the end of summer.

Any other ideas?
i have installed both mitsibushi and daikin prefer daikin mitsibushi unit is now developed i have installed three

Pollardspark
22-03-2009, 11:57 AM
Hi

I installed a Mitsibushi Ecodan air source heat pump system last August. I have had a miserable winter.

First the system does work, heat is collected from the outside, even at sub-zero. However, the good news ends there. It is a new technology and a chose a local installer from those approved by Mitsibushi on a list they supplied. The dealer also featured in their publicity brochure and video. I am a pensioner and have no heating knowledge and had to rely on the installer, particularly with the Mitsibushi recommendation behind him.

I now appreciate how important it is that heat loss calculations are carried out on the property for a retro fit. It has become very clear in hindsight, that this was not done and that the heat pump is under size. My house is well protected with cavity wall, double glazing and well insulated loft, but the installer failed to do the basics, although I gave him all the room sizes when he surveyed the property. The heat runs through the system (assuming a correct size Ecodan) at 55 degrees, instead of around 70 for a oil/gas installation. Therefore, all radiators have to be changed to increase the surface area by about a third.

In addition to an undersized system - the warmest the lounge has got through the winter is 17, on coldest days 14 - the Ecodan comes packaged with a Gledhill tank. This has been nothing but a problem. It is difficult to program times, but more importantly we have had trouble with elements of it, including needing new printed circuit boards and being without any heating or hot water for a week while they were replaced.

My advice, is look very carefully, if it is a retro fit. Check out the installer (I thought I had since Mitsibushi featured them so strongly) and be very careful to look close at the unit which comes with the air pump. This unit drives the whole process and is the 'brains' of the system. Additionally, since it will become a sealed system under mains pressure, you have to be very sure of all joints etc in the existing system – we found this out the hard way!

Despite visits from the installer and Mitsubishi (supposedly their top man on Ecodan/Gledhill) no significant improvements have been achieved – though some tinkering with the system has gone on to very minor effect. My wife and I have suffered chest colds all winter and have been ill, we are now seriously looking at facing the cost of replacing the Ecodan with oil during the summer. We cannot have another winter like the last.

Debonair Spain
22-03-2009, 06:16 PM
Hi Pollardspark, i install the Daikin equivilant called Altherma. Now they recommend Low temperature rads because of the lower flow temperatures and calculating heatlosses for the rooms.

When i enquired about using normal rads for Altherma the Daikin tech person said he would double the size of the rads if i were to use them for each room.

Have you tried contacting Mitsubishi directly to confront the issue of the undersizing.

Kesh-NI
28-03-2009, 01:19 PM
Hi to all in this discussion. I am completely new to this and have read every comment to date.

I am in Northern Ireland and where I live there is no piped gas, and although oil prices now are fairly stable compared to the roller coaster we had last year, I am faced with knowing I have to replace a 15+ year old oil boiler for both central heating and hot water. The system has no water only separation for summer, and no thermostat for heating. Just the one simple dial on the boiler for water temperature! Bizarre, I know, but this believe it or not, is typical of heating systems installed during 70's and 80's in my area.

With an old, inefficient boiler I am well aware I am overspending hundreds of £'s a year on oil, and the rads furthest from the boiler are barely tepid.

So, last week I began to look for prices of an efficient replacement boiler, and lo and behold, I accidentally stumbled upon 'Ecodan.' With immediate excitement I though this was the holy grail, and wondered why I'd never heard of this before. When I saw Mit's charts I could save half my running costs, even if I had a modern oil boiler, and with the fact mine is 15+ think of the even greater saving... Great!

And then I read this forum... Is it all it's cracked up to be? Why are there so many problems? Some concerns over outdoor location and freezing water... how do they do it in Scandinavia? Inappropriate sizing spec / surveys? All the peripheral bits to the system? High pressure... I don't want to find out that my whole house needs to be re-plumbed with a new leak springing up every week! The Daikin Altherma seems to have fewer issues. What about 55C max water temps on the Mits?

I'm no eco-warrior but 50% less CO2 would feel like I'm making a my own small contributuion to our planet.

The initial enthusiasm has now been curbed... Is it just better for me to stick to oil for now and to come back to this in another 10-15 years? Is it too naive to learn how Scandinavians have made this work and replicate their models?

I know I'm new to this, but I need someone to restore my belief that this is the best way to go in terms of reliability, heat control and delivery, separate heating and water control, and COST! What are typical costs for a 4 bedroom semi? I did a btu calc for an oil boiler replacement and it came out with a number of approx 60000. I don't have a clue what that means really, but can a heat pump system cope ok with that (please excuse my ignorance...). Someone mentioned a Sanyo system a while back which allows water temperature of 75C - Eco was only 55, don't know if Altherma is any dfferent, but if I recall correctly it can also be linked to solar panels??? Doe that have any significant bearing?

And on the issue of cost, and specifically in a retrofit situation, what are the chances of grant assistance? Eco considerations may have to be put to one side if costings are stupid!

Does anyone have contacts in Northern Ireland who I could refer to?

All input so far has been useful, but I need some expert advice to consider this any further.

Kesh

al
28-03-2009, 11:28 PM
kesh

try looking at this thread to restore your eco faith, i'd have no probs installing one of these if upgrading/replacing our existing set up.

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12433&highlight=daikin+altherma

al

Kesh-NI
29-03-2009, 09:36 PM
Hello al, a fellow Irishman

Cheers for the link to that thread.

Frank, you seem to be THE man to ask, so if you're still viewing this forum can you tell us how your mate's electricity bill went over the last 6 months, and how well the sytem operated during the winter months? Have you had any grief down the boozer?

It was great to hear that between June and Sept 2008, you measured the cost at £20 extra to run the ASHP, with the solar input. But realistically, the real test would have been October to now, when the solar's input would have been at its lowest. Is it possible to post an update? Was there a massive hike in his lekky bill? Is he still talking to you?

As I posted yesterday, my concerns are 2-fold.
1. Capital cost of solar + (most probably) Altherma -v- simple replacement of an old oil boiler
2. Running costs... I don't just want to replace an oil boiler costing me a fortune (£1500-£1600 typically - ouch!) with an electricity bill going through the roof.

Hey, I'm not really being a doom-monger nor do I want to come over as unduely sceptical... actually, I just don't know enough about all this... I so want to believe it'd be worth it.

If I just swapped out for a new boiler now (recently estimated at £1000 supplied and installed) I reckon my oil bill would be down to £800-£900. Maximum year 1 cost about £2k and no grant towards this.

What's the outlay for a typical solar + ASHP system, and year 1 running cost? It may all come down to simple economics. Essentially, the difference in capital outlay has to have a payback, and the sooner the better.

Would I be much or indeed any better off with solar + ASHP, even after 5 years? And then there seem to be all those caveats about how energy efficient / leaky the house has to be for optimal conditions for the all important COP figures to stack up...........

:confused: Kesh

back2space
30-03-2009, 02:22 AM
Hi

we are now seriously looking at facing the cost of replacing the Ecodan with oil during the summer. We cannot have another winter like the last.


before you rip it out and install a new system consider if you replace the radiators with fan coil units. These have a radiator similar to a car radiator that blows air through to heat the room up. This would be perfect for the temperature of the water flowign through. Plus you would have cooling in summer also I think.

Because a radiator doesnt move air the room temp slowly increases and if the rads havent been oversized for the rooms then this is why you cannot raise the temps.

Cheaper option is to replace the rads with fan assisted units.

Debonair Spain
30-03-2009, 09:13 AM
Hi Kesh the cost of a top ashp like the Daikin Altherma is not cheap but they have just been given the acceptance by the EU that Heat pumps are a renewable source of energy and that the UK are i believe, giving tax breaks or grants towards a new installations.

But as for calculating the correct size the only way is to carry out a heat loss calculation to your property.

If your house has good insulation then the size of the heat pump reducers in capacity.

frank
30-03-2009, 07:34 PM
Hello al, a fellow Irishman

Cheers for the link to that thread.

Frank, you seem to be THE man to ask, so if you're still viewing this forum can you tell us how your mate's electricity bill went over the last 6 months, and how well the sytem operated during the winter months? Have you had any grief down the boozer?

It was great to hear that between June and Sept 2008, you measured the cost at £20 extra to run the ASHP, with the solar input. But realistically, the real test would have been October to now, when the solar's input would have been at its lowest. Is it possible to post an update? Was there a massive hike in his lekky bill? Is he still talking to you?

As I posted yesterday, my concerns are 2-fold.
1. Capital cost of solar + (most probably) Altherma -v- simple replacement of an old oil boiler
2. Running costs... I don't just want to replace an oil boiler costing me a fortune (£1500-£1600 typically - ouch!) with an electricity bill going through the roof.

Hey, I'm not really being a doom-monger nor do I want to come over as unduely sceptical... actually, I just don't know enough about all this... I so want to believe it'd be worth it.

If I just swapped out for a new boiler now (recently estimated at £1000 supplied and installed) I reckon my oil bill would be down to £800-£900. Maximum year 1 cost about £2k and no grant towards this.

What's the outlay for a typical solar + ASHP system, and year 1 running cost? It may all come down to simple economics. Essentially, the difference in capital outlay has to have a payback, and the sooner the better.

Would I be much or indeed any better off with solar + ASHP, even after 5 years? And then there seem to be all those caveats about how energy efficient / leaky the house has to be for optimal conditions for the all important COP figures to stack up...........

:confused: Kesh

Since the install was carried out, I'm not getting any grief down the pub - now I get the odd pint for free :D

Spoke to the man today actually on the phone - he was asking how the install for the nice people he invited around to view his system was going. I said that it was finished on Friday and that, looking at the nice weather we had on Sunday, I could imagine very big grins on their faces just watching the hot water cylinder heat up for free!! :)

The original system that was mentioned at the start of this thread has now been operating for 11 months. The total electricity cost, including some Economy 7 is £230. The total cost for this month (March) is just over £10. It looks like the first years energy cost will be less than £250. Not bad when you consider that the oil spend was in the region of £1900/year.

I'll see if I can get a copy of the speadsheet he's been keeping.

krychek
31-03-2009, 09:59 AM
nice one frank !

Kesh-NI
31-03-2009, 08:25 PM
Good evening Frank and Debonair Spain

Thanks for the advice DS, and Frank that's very welcome news about the estimated costs over the year.

DS, I wouldn't know how to calculate heat loss so again a bit of advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, as informative as the web is, I'm having difficulty finding a price list for the essential components I would need. Can anyone suggest a good source in Northern Ireland, or do I have to get Frank over? By the way, it sounds like the electricity savings are funding his visits to the pub!

Debonair Spain
01-04-2009, 01:58 PM
Good evening Frank and Debonair Spain

Thanks for the advice DS, and Frank that's very welcome news about the estimated costs over the year.

DS, I wouldn't know how to calculate heat loss so again a bit of advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, as informative as the web is, I'm having difficulty finding a price list for the essential components I would need. Can anyone suggest a good source in Northern Ireland, or do I have to get Frank over? By the way, it sounds like the electricity savings are funding his visits to the pub!

Hi Kesh heatloss is based on how well your property is built to stop the heat from escaping through walls, windows and doors, ie type of bricks used, type of insulation used, type of windows double or triple glazing and floor and ceiling make up as well. And not forgetting the size of the house.

This is why England is using low capacity Altherma systems compared to Spain because English houses are built to try and stop the heat from escaping where Spanish houses are built to lose the heat.

I found plumbingpages.com quite useful.

Hope this helps.

brunstar
20-04-2009, 10:19 PM
try visiting www.altherma.co.uk (http://www.altherma.co.uk/)

stormrider
27-05-2009, 10:39 PM
Hello there,

I have just installed a new heating system in my renovation project. I have a 280 litre thermal store connected to Vaillant solar panels with a mixture of underfloor heating and radiators. Temporarily I have a 9KW boiler connected to the store (it was free!) but would like to replace it with an ASHP in the next few months. Question is can the Altherma unit be connected to an existing system or does it require all the components supplied by them (hydro box and cylinder)? If not then is the Mitsubishi the best solution?
Thanks for any advice, Dan

paceinternet
28-05-2009, 09:08 AM
A thermal store should be able to take heated water from a variety of sources, as you are demonstrating with solar and a 9kw boiler. With appropriate connections you can add a heat pump, but you will be circulating WATER from the heat pump system into the thermal store. So, because both Altherma and EcoDan have separate "hydro box" (heat exchanger) units to transfer the heat from the refridgerant to a water circuit, you would need that unit.
Some Air to water ASHP's have the air to water heat exchanger built into the one outdoor unit so that you have no refridgerant installation work, no hydro box, and only have to circulate the water into your system.

brunstar
28-05-2009, 07:46 PM
in relation to your heating system, what ever heat pump you decide to go for you will have to be careful as the temperature of a thermal store can get up to excessivly high temperatures depending what is connected to it.
I am not a fan of thermal stores due to the fact that when no solar is avaliable you have to heat the thermal store to a high temperature which is generally costly and a waste of energy.
If you were to separate your hot water requirements from your space heating requirements you are able to sucessfully only heat up a small amount of water in an indirect coil to heat the hot water cylinder instead of heating 300 litres of thermal store to give you your hot water.
I have worked on a few thermal stores with heat pumps and what i have noticed is that the customer in all cases has had expensive electric bills due to the fact they are heating up too much hot water, same goes with buffer tanks.
A good heat pump will not require a buffer tank to be used.
you are best to connect your solar to domestic hot water and use the heat pump to do the space heating, this way you can have 2 setpoints, space heating at a lower temperature than the domestic hot water which will increase your efficiency.

Gary
28-05-2009, 09:06 PM
before you rip it out and install a new system consider if you replace the radiators with fan coil units. These have a radiator similar to a car radiator that blows air through to heat the room up. This would be perfect for the temperature of the water flowign through. Plus you would have cooling in summer also I think.

Because a radiator doesnt move air the room temp slowly increases and if the rads havent been oversized for the rooms then this is why you cannot raise the temps.

Cheaper option is to replace the rads with fan assisted units.

I totally agree with this analysis. The fact that the system is able to maintain 55C water while the rooms are underheated tells us that the problem lies in between the rooms and the water. In other words, the radiators are unable to transfer sufficient heat from the water to the rooms.

Karl Hofmann
29-05-2009, 02:08 AM
Any heating engineer worth his salt will tell you that the rads have to be oversized.. Roughly by 30%. Fan coils where as good are noisy and high maintainance. Underfloor is ideal for heat pumps.

As for Gledhill heat banks... Good riddance to bad rubbish, I've never met a Gledhill sludge bucket that didn't leak... A nice idea but badly made..

krychek
31-05-2009, 02:53 PM
daikin have the new monobloc system out....superior product in my opinion.

aircool
09-06-2009, 09:12 PM
hi there kesh, give me a buzz regarding the ecodan ashp, ive just installed one in my home in derry,its 2800sq ft, your welcome to come and check it out and ill give u a run through on the system, ill give u an unbeatable price on ecodan, and they need to be teamed up with correct water cylinder with specific coil sizes to work properly, my number is 07846080302 paul

Murf
01-07-2009, 07:37 AM
Hi Paul, I am currently doing drawings for a new house in Derry (about 2400 sft) I am looking at options for a Ecodan and as you have just installed one could you tell me the reasons why you installed this over other options and wether you used radiators or underfloor.
Thanks in advance,

Murf.

airconwarehouse
10-08-2009, 11:40 AM
I would say to all those considering ASHP for UK heating that they should serioulsy consider either the Hitachi Yutaki or the Sanyo CO2 Eco.

Both these units have had extensive R & D and pose the most realistic threat to traditional heating sources (boilers).

The Sanyo, in particular, is currently the only ASHP able to allow DHW storge at 65 C (using heatpump alone) at minus 20 C and has sufficient built in backup/redundancy heating in case everything turns to Rat S**T ! As it comes as a matched package, it's the one least likely to give aggro.

You get what you pay for!!

back2space
10-08-2009, 02:35 PM
I would say to all those considering ASHP for UK heating that they should serioulsy consider either the Hitachi Yutaki or the Sanyo CO2 Eco.

Both these units have had extensive R & D and pose the most realistic threat to traditional heating sources (boilers).

The Sanyo, in particular, is currently the only ASHP able to allow DHW storge at 65 C (using heatpump alone) at minus 20 C and has sufficient built in backup/redundancy heating in case everything turns to Rat S**T ! As it comes as a matched package, it's the one least likely to give aggro.

You get what you pay for!!

I would be keen on seeing some data tables and specs at the different temperatures to show the heat pump output?

Can you provide a link?

paceinternet
10-08-2009, 10:57 PM
http
:
//
eu.sanyo.com/
AssetBrowser/
Air%20Conditioning%20Docs/
Brochures/
SANYO_CO2_ECO_Heating_System_v1.pdf

Note it is 3.6 Mb. See page 11.
65degC output temp
At +7 degC air temp the COP is 3.1
At -15 degC air temp the COP is 1.8

So maybe not as efficient as HFC above zero air temp, but producing 65 water output temp must affect it.

brunstar
11-08-2009, 12:16 AM
Daikin Altherma have released a high temperature range which operates to temperatures of up to 80 degrees.
The perfect solution for UK climates which most tech's will be able to work on which is a great solution by the looks of it.

back2space
11-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Does seem good the daikin versioN!

desA
11-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Daikin Altherma have released a high temperature range which operates to temperatures of up to 80 degrees.
The perfect solution for UK climates which most tech's will be able to work on which is a great solution by the looks of it.

I would love to know what compressor model these are using.

At a water delivery temp of 80'C, SCT must be >=~80'C, unless pulling a little more from the refrigerant superheat. Even then SCT must be at least 75'C.

Wonder what lifetime testing these folks have to back up their claims. I'd be intrigued.

:eek:

Gary
11-08-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm thinking the more relevant question would be, how do they regulate/limit the heat generated by the compressor motor?

krychek
11-08-2009, 06:44 PM
Anything that operates above the trans-critical stage is not going to be good for COP in order to produce 65 to 80 degrees C,granted it will have its market for retro fits which will have marginal efficiency benefits against gas/oil.

We must harness the way we heat our domestic dwellings - low temperatures that the 'normal' energy cycle provides with condensing temps of 40-50 degrees C is the main way forward.

desA
12-08-2009, 12:57 AM
I'm thinking the more relevant question would be, how do they regulate/limit the heat generated by the compressor motor?

Yes, agreed.

Gary
12-08-2009, 01:21 AM
I would love to know what compressor model these are using.

At a water delivery temp of 80'C, SCT must be >=~80'C, unless pulling a little more from the refrigerant superheat. Even then SCT must be at least 75'C.

Wonder what lifetime testing these folks have to back up their claims. I'd be intrigued.

:eek:

From what little I have found online, it seems that Daikin builds their own compressors and if I am not mistaken, the Altherma uses an inverter driven model.

desA
12-08-2009, 01:25 AM
^ Thanks very much, Gary. I'll follow up on their compressor range.

Heatman
09-03-2010, 11:11 PM
I've been looking at the Daikin HT heat pump any one know what SCOP figures. I've been told likely to be around 2, which seems low. Can't get any actual performance details from Daikin, anyone got any experience?

brunstar
10-03-2010, 12:42 AM
I've been looking at the Daikin HT heat pump any one know what SCOP figures. I've been told likely to be around 2, which seems low. Can't get any actual performance details from Daikin, anyone got any experience?

If you e mail technicalhelp@daikin.co.uk with the heading of Daikin Altherma HT information and the nature of the query they will be able to help you.

krychek
10-03-2010, 01:09 AM
I've been looking at the Daikin HT heat pump any one know what SCOP figures. I've been told likely to be around 2, which seems low. Can't get any actual performance details from Daikin, anyone got any experience?

more likely your not able to supply them with the correct criteria in order to give you an exact SCoP...hence im guessing the figure was quoted by them as worst case scenario.(THEY HAVE SOME VERY GOOD SOFTWARE SO IT IS EASY FOR THEM)

This figure is realistic at worst case up to around 2.5.

And yes you are correct for traditional cycle its not the best, but it does use two compressors utilising R410a & R134a gas as a cascade type system to boost to 80 degrees C.

Although the COP does not on the face of it seem that good, the product is MCS approved unlike alot of those out there that arent, and dont forget the government is now going to PAY people for every kwh they use from an ASHP up to around 7p per KWH up to 23 years of the systems life (dont shoot me if its 6p!)

Hence with the £900 grant plus the above - makes it the most cost effective solution now well above boilers !

hope this helps.

olddog
10-03-2010, 07:26 PM
.................. and dont forget the government is now going to PAY people for every kwh they use from an ASHP up to around 7p per KWH up to 23 years of the systems life (dont shoot me if its 6p!).........

from Krycheks profile :

Location: timbuktu !

:p

brunstar
10-03-2010, 08:37 PM
The high temperature units have quite a good COP compared to CO2 units. By the use of 2 compressors it does sound like a lot more energy but if you plot the compression cycle due to the cascade system the heat of compression is lower bringing the discharge pressure and temperature closer to that what a CO2 system will offer which increases the refrigeration effect making the system more efficient.(lower your head pressure and system becomes more efficient). The COP will only depend on what flow temperature you are running the system at!

Just like all of the low temperature systems out there the COP is calculated at 35 degree flow most of the time but people run the system at higher flow temperatures than required reducing the COP and wasting energy.
Daikin UK have a cash back scheme on their Daikin Altherma High temperature units and Daikin Altherma Monobloc units which is extremely attractive!!!
check this out, up to 1800 pounds cash back..

http://www.altherma.co.uk/500-cash-back/default.jsp

krychek
11-03-2010, 02:41 PM
from Krycheks profile :

Location: timbuktu !

:p

lol - not a bad place to be....!!;)

frank
12-03-2010, 01:28 PM
and dont forget the government is now going to PAY people for every kwh they use from an ASHP up to around 7p per KWH up to 23 years of the systems life (dont shoot me if its 6p!)

This is mentioned in a consultation document going through Parliament at the moment.....far off being accepted, which is just as well, as the proposal is to slap a levy on all our energy bills to pay for it.

Search for the document on line....the front page is attached below

Haden4ever
16-03-2010, 07:09 PM
Hi, very interesting thread this, keep it up. My ex-council house is fitted with the regulation baxi back boiler and i've been weighing up my options for a while, my understanding is that mitsi and daikin both have high temp versions, my only worry is that a cascade ashp means two compressors and more parts to fail etc, i wonder how this affects the long term return ;)
also does anyone know how much these things cost GBP ?? that's assuming i can get 'em to sell me one:D

sweeney948
26-01-2011, 05:51 PM
Hi there we have experienced the same problems could you PM me please

sweeney948
26-01-2011, 05:55 PM
do your self a favour stay away from mitsubishi when it comes to air sourse heat pumps PM me and I will explain why

Karl Hofmann
26-01-2011, 06:47 PM
do your self a favour stay away from mitsubishi when it comes to air sourse heat pumps PM me and I will explain why


Please tell us here, we'd like to know..

Karl Hofmann
26-01-2011, 06:52 PM
Hi, very interesting thread this, keep it up. My ex-council house is fitted with the regulation baxi back boiler and i've been weighing up my options for a while, my understanding is that mitsi and daikin both have high temp versions, my only worry is that a cascade ashp means two compressors and more parts to fail etc, i wonder how this affects the long term return ;)
also does anyone know how much these things cost GBP ?? that's assuming i can get 'em to sell me one:D

I would say that your best option would be to stick with gas for an older property onless you were planning to gut the house and fit underfloor and upgrade the insulation considerably