New Qualifications

[Pooh]

Hi Folks
Just a quick question on the forthcoming FGas Legislation.
At present there are a couple of alternatives being concidered by the powers that be as to what in the UK will be taken as the requirement for competency for the Fgas Legislation/
Firstly a new short course taking approximately 4/5 days and a 4 hour assessment of competency which every fridge engineer no matter what other qualifications will be required to take as a top up to the present refrigerant handling qualifications.

Or the NVQ Level Two along with the refrigerant handling and a brazing certicate, which is already in place.

I am at a meeting on friday this week where the decision will be made, I would like your input on the way the refrigeration and air conditioning industry should go in the UK.

The only issue I have is that anybody from the street will be able to take the short course and be able to call themselves a refrigeration engineer across Europe without any other experience other than passing a 4 hour test.

As a trainer who could make loads of money out of the first option it does not feel right that the existing qualifications although they meet Europes requirements are being ignored in favour of a quick fix.

This is the industries oportunity to lift its perception to the rest of industry as a professional trade and its ability to monitor its members and maintain a sensible level of competence.

Please let me know your feelings and I will pass them on to the powers that be on friday and hopefully the correct decision will be made.

One further point is that to obtain a Skillcard you require an NVQ Level Two as an engineer and as a commisiioning engineer you require an NVQ Three apparently this will remain as the requirement so even if you do the FGas course you will still require at least an NVQ Two, ther is some confusion here somewhere.

Ian

[The Viking]

Ian,
Although I agree with your concerns re option one, where would "old" engineers, without the NVQ, stand if we go for option 2?

[frank]

Firstly a new short course taking approximately 4/5 days and a 4 hour assessment of competency which every fridge engineer no matter what other qualifications will be required to take as a top up to the present refrigerant handling qualifications.
That's a lot of lost working hours. How can every engineer afford to take 4/5 days off of work? - who is expected to pick up the loss of earnings?

The only issue I have is that anybody from the street will be able to take the short course and be able to call themselves a refrigeration engineer across Europe without any other experience other than passing a 4 hour test.
Why not make it a condition that the course is only available to people with current qualifications? that way it would prevent 'anyone off the street' taking the course

[nike123]

Why not make it a condition that the course is only available to people with current qualifications? that way it would prevent 'anyone off the street' taking the course

Just my opinion about qualification on paper in general.

For me, it doesn't mater how is someone gained skills and knowledge, it is important that someone have required skills and knowledge needed for taking the course.
Also, current qualification doesn't mean that someone now have required knowledge. It only mean that in moment of obtaining qualification someone has got acceptable knowledge about tested subject.
It would be better for everybody, that course organizers test required knowledge for participating course before course, and select participants according to test results instead of current qualifications of participants.

[chris96]

I think the NVQ 2 myself, with a exception for people with over 4 year's current experiance, who should complete a small maybe 1 day course.

Any old joey can sit a weeks course.

Chris

[Grizzly]

Ian.
You are a sensible Engineer with many years experience and it shows.
Many thanks for giving us a voice.
If we have got to have a standard, I guess option 2 is relevant, let's be honest. Despite the many genuine engineers there are some very "iffy" ones out there. Although I don't think many frequent this forum.
I would take issue with your requirement for Skill cards.
My company a very large Multi National as you know! Spent lots and lots of money getting all the Engineers Skill cards. The first serious site I visited
( A Nuclear Power Station ) Took one look at our Skill cards and laughed at us. Stating that they were not of a good enough standard and they did not recognise them. Sorry to all you trainers but in the Last 5 or 6 yrs I have never been asked for my skill card. ( I do accept that they may well be used more often in the Construction Industry). It is only recently Sites have begun to ask for copies of all the Engineers Qualifications.
I believe this is because of ISO 9000 and not as our Industry would like to think because of self regulation or well informed Engineering Staff.
So may I also ask that you ask those with the casting votes. What are they proposing to do about Policing the Industry.
Personally I feel the principle of what is trying to be achieved is good. Sadly I feel the honest and potentially financially poorer guys (As Frank says Who is going to pay??). May well suffer.
Once again thanks to you, Frank and Many others who are keeping us well informed.
Incidentally do you still think that holding C&Guilds will be acceptable?
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[superswill]

I’am concerned as pointed out where do the “old style” engineers stand, ive been in the industry coming up to nine years and hold no relevant NQV’s just my safe handling (and I know iam not alone in this) as when I started day release wasn’t an option as you has to earn your strips on install before dreaming about the holly grail of being a service engineer, I agree completely with our industry needs to raise its game and one by one out these fly by night “engineers” who are doing us competent people out of work and bringing a bad name to honest reliable companies, now the sticking point Iam doubtful most company’s will be able to sustain good men going on day release for as I understand two years and how many people who are in there 40,50,60’s will want to relearn a trade they could write the book on,

where do we go from here? We want our trade to shine and to be given the respect it deserves, We don’t want any tom **** and harry buying a set of gauges of ebay and discrediting this industry many of us on here have worked bloody hard to make a name in

what’s the options?

paul

[monkey spanners]

I've been working on refrigeration systems since i was seven,when i worked with my dad who has done the old city and guilds trainning back in the 70's. Other than my acrib card, vehicle air con and manufacturer specific trianning i have nothing to my name.
What will be will be, but i hope it leaves some room for the likes of me to meet whatever standards are set in a way that leaves me free to trade, until i meet them (unless i'm one of the unwanted:o).

Cheers Jon

[frank]

Pooh

Am I right in saying that the re-training of all engineers to meet the new qualification (C & G 2079) will have to take place over a period of 12 months? (as indicated on the flyer I received from Space Air)

If true, then this surely will have a severe impact on the ability of companies to service contracts while part of their service/installation personnel are away on training.

[Brian_UK]

As one of those 'older' guys I tend to agree with Frank and Grizzly.

I would extend my ignorance by asking "What is an NVQ Level 2" ?

I do understand where Ian is going with his comment about "4/5 days and then you're qualified" however I don't believe that you are expected to be 'qualified' just competent which is all the F-Gas system is about.

It is a good thing that the industry is finally heading towards a CORGI type operating standard but even that has gotten overblown I believe. The different levels of CORGI requirements now are beyond a joke unless I'm getting that wrong and I could be. I am CORGI registered as well but only on the commercial side. Note that I said 'registered' and not qualified.

Going back to my earlier paragraph about the 4/5 days pass, the type of people who may just take that course and hope to get a well paid job out of it will, I think, be sadly mistaken. The good firms will only want good people and the cowboys will always find another cowboy to help out. Just like CORGI, until they get caught they will always find a customer.

Personally I think that 'time-served' should have an important bearing on the forthcoming chaos that will envelope the industry as the F-Gas Regs start to bite.

My firm is already in the state of 'who should we join?' as regards being 'covered'.

Unfortunately, as with all Government things, this thing is being dragged along by no-one in authority with any knowledge as far as I can tell. The usual committees are fumbling around and creating a wake of uncertainty behind them.

I am glad that people like yourselves Ian are being involved but, and no disrespect here, should it be decided by people who will gain financially, possibly, from the outcome ?

[/end rant - sorry guys]

[benj2212]

to cater for all ages and types of training i'd prefer the 5 day course however there should perhaps be an entry exam and evidence of experience from an employer/time served/certificates etc to prevent the cowboys from entering.

[The Viking]

As some of you might be aware, I did not learn my (our) trade here in UK.

These new legislations that's now being introduced (across EU?) are vaguely based on the Swedish “KylNorm” (“The Swedish Refrigeration Code “) that was introduced in Sweden back in the late 1980s.

As we now experience over here, back then it was a lot of debate about it in Sweden.
“Who will pay”
“It will be the end of our trade”
“It's too complicated”
were all common comments.

So, what was the basics in Sweden?
@The owner/end user needs to ensure:
-That all plant (refrigerant circuits) are individually numbered and labelled.
-That a full log of all works carried out on all plant is kept and sent in to the local council every 12 months.
-That only accredited engineers work on their plant.
-That all plant is in good working order and without leaks.
-That all refrigeration circuits are leak tested and serviced according to current legislation.

@The local council will check these logs and if there been refrigerant added, check that an accredited engineer have signed off on the works.

@The Engineers need to:
-Be accredited (more about that further down)
-Keep a log of all refrigerant used on all sites visited.
-Keep up to date with new legislations.

@The governing body will:
-Help and support accredited engineers.
-Visit (inspect) each accredited company at least once per year.
-Compare refrigerant logs and investigate any and all discrepancies.
-Prosecute wherever the legislation isn't adhered to.

So, how was it?
To start with I think most engineers had a nightmare, all that extra paperwork, all additional tools and all the additional training.
We had to:
-Learn about the new legislation............2weeks + a test that were quite hard to pass.....
-Learn how to pressure test...................1week + a test that were quite hard to pass.....
-Send samples of our brazed joints to be x-rayed (once a year!!), a lot of people failed their first attempts on this, even "old" "proper" engineers (My boss were one of them He,He,He:D)
-Be visited by the governing body at least once a year (but do it well 3 years in a row and you got the fourth year “free”)
-Get an “approved” electronic leak detector.
-Get a calibrated pressure testing rig.
-Get an “approved” set of scales.
-Keep your gauges calibrated.

BUT, here is where the moaning ended....
More or less over night, the cowboys disappeared (some people got prosecuted, both cowboys and end-users, so the news got out that it was a bad idea to try and cheat).
Everybody got the same overheads.
The customers had to take your advice, or get an inspector out to overrule you (never heard of that actually happened thou).
If you weren't happy with the plant, you had the power to turn it off and leave it off until it were properly repaired.

It raised the standard of our work enormously.
It generated a lot of new work (paid for by the end users).

BUT, in Sweden they took it the whole way. There were (is) proper monitoring from the government, people not complying were given fines and sent to jail....
Unfortunately I can not see that happen here in UK.
(Where I as a CORGI registered engineer can condemn a gas installation for safety reasons only for the end-user to turn it back on, without risking prosecution as long as nobody gets hurt or killed)


Sorry for the lengthy post, but I thought it might be of interest.


Edit: Interesting to see that both Brian and myself are CORGI "registered" and not chosen the word "qualified"....Hmm, must be something there.

[Billy Ray]

I think Brian has hit the nail on the head,

its about being competent regarding handling refrigerants & having procedures to monitor refrigerants in plants, the whole 'F-Gas concept'.

An upgraded version, a more indepth 2078 would suffice.

With regards to NVQ's!! these are qualifications for installing, servicing, maintaining & commissioning systems.

F-Gas is slightly different i suggest..

Billy Ray

[Brian_UK]

Good post Viking, thanks.

I think as you have said that a direct, sincere, approach similar to Sweden really is the way to go.

Unfortunately our pathetic Governments attempt at running a country will not allow anything like that to happen. The EU may like to see it but the cries from various member states would overrule it as well.

Politics is about getting re-elected, keeping the gravy train running and not doing anything that might be construed as useful.

[Grizzly]

If you weren't happy with the plant, you had the power to turn it off and leave it off until it were properly repaired

I WISH!
I hope we have the b***s to follow Sweden.

Grizzly

[Brian_UK]

I hope we have the b***s to follow Sweden.Watch Out :eek:
Low flying bacon :rolleyes:

[The Viking]

Watch Out :eek:
Low flying bacon :rolleyes:


????
That's obviously above my comprehension of the English language.

[superswill]

????
That's obviously above my comprehension of the English language.

see the link below viking


http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Pigs+might+fly

[Grizzly]

????
That's obviously above my comprehension of the English language.
It is a reference to the term "Pigs Might Fly".
In plain English "It will never happen"!
Grizzly

[Brian_UK]

Sorry Viking, forgot the 'international' bit again ;)

[N.Lewis]

Hi guy's..Reading all of your replies to ian shows everyone has different issues on the subject of 'F-GAS', but for all my serching on internet and this forum i am and i'm sure others out there are none the wiser of what is happening regards qualifications needed for this subject, when is anyone going to give us a clear idea of what is going on??.

[Argus]

Hi guy's..Reading all of your replies to ian shows everyone has different issues on the subject of 'F-GAS', but for all my serching on internet and this forum i am and i'm sure others out there are none the wiser of what is happening regards qualifications needed for this subject, when is anyone going to give us a clear idea of what is going on??.



Things are moving on as far as qualifications are concerned.

I posted this the other day:
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11387

Follow the links within BERR's site and then Summit Skills.
It's as up-to date at this time of writing as we can be.

Most importantly, read the adopted proposal (link on BERR's site), this outlines what will be required to fulfil the training requirements within the F Gas regulations.

The Govt have a stakeholder's meeting arranged for the 25th, so we should know a bit more when that takes place.


.
.

[N.Lewis]

Wow, i take it back, that is a wealth of information!!:eek:
Thanks Argos...

[frank]

Unfortunately I can not see that happen here in UK.

Good points Viking. :)

When, in the UK, has anyone been prosecuted for releasing refrigerant to the atmosphere since the introduction of new laws that made this practice illegal?

I can only recall 1 such case that was in the daily press, and I think this resulted in a fine - not a prison sentence.

As Brian said - it's all about being re-elected.

Perhaps I should start a new Poll about how many of us have had the Police turn up when we've tried to report a crime, damage to our car/van, shed broken into, kids making a nuisance of themselves outside our house, burglary, etc etc.

I walked into the main Police station in Nottingham to report my van being burgled just around the corner from the station, some 10 minutes after it had happened. The nice lady in uniform directed me to a telephone at the end of the counter while she continued to deal with the steady stream of immigrants that had to attend each day and sign in.

After 40 minutes of the phone ringing with no answer, I gave up.

Policing the release of refrigerant, Policing persons handling refrigerant who shouldn't be - don't make me laugh. :rolleyes:

The only time anyone will 'come a cropper' is when anything goes wrong.

[Andy W]

It worries me, I have been in the fridge trade for 30 years, longer if you count my school holidays I spent working with my dad who was Prestcold trained in the 50's, I only have c&g 2078 and the care handling qualifications as well as the 16 the edition which will soon be replaced with the 17 th edition, now as a self employed engineer I can not spare more than half a day off at a time as I have no one who can do my calls in my absence or to even man my phone, I think training is a good idea but I have no wish to study for the NVQ etc 1 night a week at an 80 mile round trip, after 30 years of hard work I want leisure time, I have no wish to further my career or expand my business and as the bulk of my work is aimed at the smaller business the extra qualifications are not required as far as my customers are concerned, it is still all about how much it will cost to get their fridge equipment up and running again.

Perhaps if the big companies who I carry out work for try and force my hand for NVQ 2, skill cards etc I will just give up that work, I intend to cut things down over the next 4 years anyway.

[Pooh]

Gents
FGas covers all aspects of the trade from install to service etc.

I am taking your comments with me to the meeting Friday and I will feed back when I return.


Ian