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dvtruc
11-05-2003, 09:36 AM
Hi all,

As your experience, could you advise me a comparison between single and twin screw compressor and also application field of the single one (reffering to J & E HallScrew).

Many Thanks

Andy
11-05-2003, 10:59 AM
Hi dvtruc,
in my experience there is little differance in performance or effeciency, the only draw back with single Halls screws is the increased maintenance requirement compared to a single screw of the same duty. This is offset a little by the loe cost of the service spares. If you have a number of Halls screw requiring the same tool kit costs are reduced, if not it is very expensive to buy the tools just to maintain one or two screw compressors.
Stick to a twin screw such as a Howden unless you are able to do the overalls yourself and you have the tools.
Regards. Andy:)

Sexton
19-05-2003, 07:22 PM
Interesting chat re the single - screw compressor. Generally speaking, they have not been popular for the reasons outlined by Andy. Grasso manufactured a range called the "Mono Screw" in the 70's. These were also maintenance intensive and in general they did not handle fluctuating loads in the way that we now take for granted with the twin screw machines.

I am evaluating a multi compressor installation using Hall Screw HS 35's on ammonia. - High Stage (-10/+35), Low Stage booster(-40/-10) and "Swing changeover " applications on either duty. Please, can anyone assist with a set of capacity / selection curves for this machine? J & E Hall have not helped me.

dvtruc
19-05-2003, 08:24 PM
Hi Sexton,

Hall Screw sent me a Dos selection sofware for their new 4200 single screw compressor. You can refer to it. Tell me to sent it via net.

Truc

Sexton
20-05-2003, 06:18 PM
Hi dvtruc,

Thanks very much for your advice. This gives me more hope. I specifically need the data for the HS35. Perhaps you could let me know the details of the contact person who helped you at Halls. I might be more successful if I talk to a specific person.

Thanks so much for your help.

Regards. Sexton

dvtruc
28-05-2003, 08:13 AM
Hi Sexton,

Sorry for my late reply. His name is Mr Tony Payne - a Sales Manager, but I don't know who a technical man is.

Office phone no. +44 1332 253477

Regards,

DVTruc

Sexton
28-05-2003, 07:23 PM
Hi DV Truc,

Thanks for your help. I have been contacted by Dave Ball who is giving me assistance.

Thanks for your contribution - this forum is really helpful.

Best regards,

Sexton

Jryffel
26-06-2003, 09:16 PM
The modern era of single screws is manufactured by Vilter Manufacturing. They are having great success with these units however the marketing is hampered by all the bad press Grasso & Hall received. Vilter has gotten rid of the bugs in this design and even backs it with a 5-year warranty. I sell verey few parts for these machines. As a Vilter distributor the only real parts I need to stock are for the micro. As far as maintenance I see no more than a twin screw.

Andy
26-06-2003, 10:23 PM
Hi Jryffel:)
Vitler make a single/mono screw:confused:
Nothing wrong with a mono screw, just they haven't kept up with the times on my side of the pond.:(
Priced a maintenance contract with a HS35 on it recently, looks like I am going to see quite a bit of mono screws in the next few months:cool:
Have you a link to the Vitler site so we can have a look see.
Regards. Andy:)

Jryffel
15-07-2003, 01:26 PM
http://www.vilter.com/ This is their site. I am a Vilter distributor
however we use Vilter recips alot but have not yet put in a single screw. After all the horror stories we have heard on the Hall mono screw we will need Vilter to have some track record before we spec a single screw. It does not seem like they are gaining their share of the market. We use twin screw FES or M&M at this time with great results. Most of our designs include both screws and recips. Screws for main load and recips to cycle on and off as needed to best match the loads.

Mark C
12-03-2004, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by Jryffel
http://www.vilter.com/ .......we will need Vilter to have some track record before we spec a single screw.

The track record is there. My clients have had generally good experiences with them. I would pause before using one at low temperatures, however.

Andy
12-03-2004, 11:09 PM
Hi Mark C:)
I have seen a little more of the technology behind the Vilter recently, the cool compression seems a good idea. I don,t think Vilter are going for the low temperature market:eek:
Kind Regards. Andy.:)

energy
02-04-2005, 03:07 AM
Food day dvtruc, I am also doing a JE Hall HS2022, we do not have local rep for this machine, the one who sold the unit have already close out, wwe are now having a problem with the fridge watch controller, the micro just hang up. The supplier of the unit did not even left a IOM manual which we could use as a reference, I tried sending email to JEHelp line but nobody bother to care.

Can send me info, if you have any idea. Your help will be appreciated.

charlie n
07-04-2005, 01:11 AM
The HS 35 Had a swept volume of 1728 M3/hr at 2950 RPM. You should get close to the capacity by comparing it to another machine of similar displacement.

TXiceman
09-04-2005, 03:04 PM
My past experience with a Hall single screw was not good. The machines had limited range of capacity and efficiency was not good for lower temperature applications. On ammonia we had bad star seal problems and once that was fixed, bearings last hardly more than a year in ammonia medium temp service.

I have sold against the Vilter machine and they make sure you see the success stories. I found plenty of non-success stories which they are very quiet about.

One plant, after 3 years of failures, had the compressor set removed from the skid and replaced it with a conventional twin rotor screw. The machine was crashing every 6 months to maybe a year.

One of the Cool Compression installations had such oil carry over problems, the machine could not operate more than 2 days before having to add oil. After several repair attempts, Vilter finally did some work inside the separator and go the oil carry over under control. I will say that the machine was very quiet though.

The Vilter distributors are very loyal to the single screw. But for every "success" story they publish, I have found more than one failure.

I've been involved with large industrial screws for 30 years now and the twin rotor screw is the only way to go. While the single screw design is interesting, it has not proven itself well in the field.

dvtruc
10-04-2005, 12:00 PM
Hi Energy,
I did contact and buy one HS 2022 a year ago as a replacement. For open drive they have two new series - HS 2000(2024, 2028, 2031, 2035) and HS 4200, with swept volume from 508 (HS 4221) to 2486 m3/h(2035), I think they're more suitable to medium/high temp. app. because of liquid injection for cooling and efficiency(for ex. McQuay chiller). You have a problem with a controller, it's better to contact the controller supplier (maybe Eliwell or Danfoss,...)

w.l.ong
18-06-2005, 06:02 PM
Hello Energy,
can you tell me more what happen to the controller? maybe i can help to repair it back or design a new control system. if screw compressor controller maybe we can buy a programable controller a rewirte our own way.

w.l.ong

downunder
27-06-2005, 02:16 PM
Hi all just wanted to add my opinion on the single screw comps. Having had quite alot of experience on these machines i found that they are as reliable as any other screw on the market. I se what people say about howdens and they are too a very good machine but the hallscrew has proved when installed in the right way and correctlly engineered job they are no problems. Infact i carried out a inspection on a HS2020 that had been running for 8 years with 25,000hours and there was'nt a thing wrong with it. The customer was over the moon as a simple inspection could be done with out striping the whole compressor down. With the new range these comps will Be seen alot more...so watch out....... ;)

guapo
15-03-2006, 04:30 PM
Hi all,

As your experience, could you advise me a comparison between single and twin screw compressor and also application field of the single one (reffering to J & E HallScrew).

Many Thanks
Hello everybody,
I'm Eric Delmo and I work for J&E Hall compressor for 15 years. I am the local Service & Parts here in the Philippines. I'm willing to help for any information regarding Hallscrew compressor.

guapo
15-03-2006, 05:10 PM
hi dvtruc,
I also work with Grasso and I had bad experience with twin screw.

Twin screw is very dificult to do service, sometimes got welded to each other. And also the constraction of the casing is not very good accesible for the service.

I think the diffirence is more on the service accesible.

guapo
15-03-2006, 05:18 PM
Food day dvtruc, I am also doing a JE Hall HS2022, we do not have local rep for this machine, the one who sold the unit have already close out, wwe are now having a problem with the fridge watch controller, the micro just hang up. The supplier of the unit did not even left a IOM manual which we could use as a reference, I tried sending email to JEHelp line but nobody bother to care.

Can send me info, if you have any idea. Your help will be appreciated.

Hello energy,
You can send me your inquiry regarding J&E Hall comp. ericdelmo@hotmail.com

Andy
15-03-2006, 10:49 PM
Food day dvtruc, I am also doing a JE Hall HS2022, we do not have local rep for this machine, the one who sold the unit have already close out, wwe are now having a problem with the fridge watch controller, the micro just hang up. The supplier of the unit did not even left a IOM manual which we could use as a reference, I tried sending email to JEHelp line but nobody bother to care.

Can send me info, if you have any idea. Your help will be appreciated.

Look thru the posts, it gives Tony Paynes number, they will assist you Fridge Watch is well supported, I have Had to replace the main system board due to vibration cracking it, no major problems to sort this out, although this is about as major as you can get on Fridge Watch.

Kind Regards. Andy:)

lowtempref
07-10-2006, 12:58 PM
I have been using J&E Hall screw compressors last 12 years and absoultly no problem with compressors. I used in the range +5 deg down to Minus 75 Deg C with all refrigerants and till today we never opened the compressor for major maintenance. I don't think the problems discussed above are nothing to do with compressors reliability and are related to the system accessories problems. We buy only compressors and packaging the same with indegenously made accessories like oil separator, oil cooler, controllers etc.

NH3LVR
12-10-2006, 03:32 AM
Have been watching threads on single and double screws in various sections of this forum.
Am out of town working and bored waiting to fly home, so I thought I would weigh in.
Thirty years ago I worked on the install of a Mcyom Twin Screw on a FES High Statge NH3 Package. I was new and very green.
A few monthes ago I replaced the existing 250 HP motor with a 350 HP as part of a system remodel. We were raising the itermediate pressue and the 250 was at its limits. We brought them up to 1100HP total. And it is still not enough.
But I stray from the thought at hand.
I asked the Plant Manager, who was the operator back then, what he had done to the machine.
I am sure this is not a complete record, but is what he related to me.

One Oil Pump
Machine open twice for bearings
Various electric controls
One motor rewind

Bear in mind this machine runs 24/7, and slugs often. I mentioned that the liquid was bad for the health of the machine. He replied that if that was true it should have broken in thirty years.
I had nothing to say in answer to that.
Can you expect any more from a machine that that?

aawood1
13-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Hi all we still run 5 old Grasso MS compressors, Two high side MS 1030 units and the rest are Low side MS 1034 units built back in 1982 to 1984. They now run 24-7 for 21 days and stoped for 2 days. All that we have done in that time is oil and filters, suction filter, loading gear parts and gland service. On the howdens we have we have had new rotors and bearings, oil and filters and gland service and they are up to 12 years old.
Arthur.

HallsEngineer
08-08-2007, 08:49 AM
if your bearings are going you need to check your liquid injection isn't too aggressive try for 75'c ish. anymore probs give me a post ill try to reply

Gonzalo Arias
03-10-2007, 05:16 PM
Dear friend:
I have seen many Vilter single screw compressor working very well during let say 10 years, they perform fine and there is not a lot of repair cost, in fact they just need little maintenance.
Also because of their continuous Vi they are more efficient.

hendry
15-12-2007, 07:39 PM
hola guys,

i notice some blinds leading the blinds here!

does any of you work for compressor manufacturer before?

it is of danger if rookie engineer applies what you have said.

single vs twn screw?
1] perfromance difference = yes;
2] cost difference = yes;
3] maintenance diffirence = yes.

twn screw use smaller e-motor compared to single @ similar cooling cap.

initial cost is low for single.

maintenance cost is low for single.

runnign cost is high for same cap.

any other thing you wish to know?

NH3LVR
16-12-2007, 01:45 AM
i notice some blinds leading the blinds here! does any of you work for compressor manufacturer before? it is of danger if rookie engineer applies what you have said. any other thing you wish to know?

Where is a Mod when you want one?

Brian_UK
16-12-2007, 01:53 AM
Where is a Mod when you want one?We're on the case buddy, hold on a little longer.

Brian

TXiceman
16-12-2007, 03:58 AM
Having used both single and twin rotor machines, each has a place. In GENERAL, the single rotor machines do better on high evaporator temps or lower pressure ratio jobs and the power is better than a twin rotor.

A twin rotor machine will typically do better on a low temp evaporator of higher pressure ratios.

I certainly hope that the single rotor machines have the star seals and bearing problems solved which I suffered through.

As for twin rotor machines, I have seen a pair of small Fricks that had close to 90,000 hours on them...R22 service, evap condenser on a large cooler. The only repairs were on the oil pumps and each had a shaft seal.

Seen plenty with 50,000 hours plus in a well designed system.

It all boils down to the fact that you can put the best compressor built in a poor system and it will not do well. Put a poorly built compressor in a well designed system and it will do OK, maybe not well though. So for the best, design your system properly and use a well proven compressor.

For the money, I'll still stick to a twin rotor machine...be it GEA, Frick, Mycom or Howden. I tend to shy away from the other brands.

Ken

US Iceman
16-12-2007, 05:03 AM
i notice some blinds leading the blinds here!


Oh, I don't think so.:(



does any of you work for compressor manufacturer before?


YES, some of us have worked for compressor manufacturers. You might want to try to be a little more subtle in your posts. I can think of just several guys here who total over 100 years worth of experience. If I looked for more, it is there.:cool:



any other thing you wish to know?


Sure, how much experience do you have?

hendry
16-12-2007, 09:25 AM
discussion ... oh ... discussion.

anyway, at least some immediate issue is resolved so that our supervisor do not jump on us.

isn't that the aim of party who turn to RE for helps?
i, too, look for some good answers to common refrigeration problems.

Andy
16-12-2007, 02:25 PM
Having used both single and twin rotor machines, each has a place. In GENERAL, the single rotor machines do better on high evaporator temps or lower pressure ratio jobs and the power is better than a twin rotor.

A twin rotor machine will typically do better on a low temp evaporator of higher pressure ratios.

Ken

Hendry:)

this would be the reason single screws are still applied.

I overhauled HS 34 and after some initial problems it is running very well. That is after 25 odd years of service.

Mono screws are long lasting in certain applications, but engineers have less experience working on them.

When you have worked on a few mono screws you will have better regard for them.

Kind Regards Andy:)

TXiceman
17-12-2007, 01:42 AM
Andy, for the most part, my career has been spent on low temperature refrigeration, so most of the applications lend themselves to twin rotor machines. My industrial refrigeration experience goes back 37 years now and has covered engineering, service and trouble shooting.

Ken

Ken

hendry
17-12-2007, 04:35 AM
Hendry:)

this would be the reason single screws are still applied.

I overhauled HS 34 and after some initial problems it is running very well. That is after 25 odd years of service.

Mono screws are long lasting in certain applications, but engineers have less experience working on them.

When you have worked on a few mono screws you will have better regard for them.

Kind Regards Andy:)

Thanks Mr. Andy.
i've physically overhauled both twin & mono screw compressors.
and, I'm doing it eventhough i've moved up in enigneering ladder.
thank you for your advice/s & i'll not leave anything behind in my next overhaul.

Gonzalo Arias
17-12-2007, 09:11 AM
hola guys,

i notice some blinds leading the blinds here!

does any of you work for compressor manufacturer before?

it is of danger if rookie engineer applies what you have said.

single vs twn screw?
1] perfromance difference = yes;
2] cost difference = yes;
3] maintenance diffirence = yes.

twn screw use smaller e-motor compared to single @ similar cooling cap.

initial cost is low for single.

maintenance cost is low for single.

runnign cost is high for same cap.

any other thing you wish to know?

Hendry:
Please read this attachment.
Best Regards
Gonzalo

Grizzly
17-12-2007, 05:02 PM
I work on both types of screw and can recommend models from both Camps.
In simple terms "You get what you pay for". Yes Hall Screws are High Maintenace. Compaired with some cheaper " sealed for life" twin screws.
But when you refer to a Halls maintenace manual.
It says something like " Every 24 years or 100,000 hrs (11.4 yrs of running) Renew the main bearings.
That's pretty impressive in my book.
More importantly when they do go wrong you can repair them. Because the Star wheel is sacraficial compared to comprable damage on a twin screw.
Likewise I have a site with 2 stahl (twin) screws ( On Ammonia) that in nearly 20 yrs have only needed Oil Filter changes and a shaft seal each.
Brilliant Machines no longer made ( to well engineered making them expensive to produce. I Believe?)
To often equipment is purchased purely on cost and not longevity nowadays.
There appears to be cheap twin screw models out there that are supplied on a disposable basis. When it breaks rip it out and put another one in. These cannot be compaired with the more expensive and reliable models from both camps.
Yes I did work for J&E Hall.
But I can appreciate good kit wherever it is made.
Sometimes good equipment fails because those looking after it are not up to the job!
Grizzly

hendry
18-12-2007, 02:53 AM
Hendry:
Please read this attachment.
Best Regards
Gonzalo

thanks Gonzalo!

will remember that ...

hendry
18-12-2007, 02:56 AM
Food day dvtruc, I am also doing a JE Hall HS2022, we do not have local rep for this machine, the one who sold the unit have already close out, wwe are now having a problem with the fridge watch controller, the micro just hang up. The supplier of the unit did not even left a IOM manual which we could use as a reference, I tried sending email to JEHelp line but nobody bother to care.

Can send me info, if you have any idea. Your help will be appreciated.

your region is covered under our local rep.
could we have your details in separate discussion?
probably we could help.

HallsEngineer
30-12-2007, 09:02 PM
Any machine under the size of 2024 is now obolsete, good luck finding one. can change for a 3200 or a 4200 machine just a small pipe work mod i think.

Plank!
30-12-2007, 09:59 PM
I've not had much experience with HallScrews, the only time i ever opened one due to excessive vibration, found a chunk of steel broken off the rotor, from one of the splines. The piece was still inside the casing, and was approx 40mm x 15mm. Impact marks inside the case suggested it had bounced about for a while before comming to rest in the bottom. The star wheel was a little chewed up, but the machine still worked with almost no drop in performance. Only outward sign of the problem was this huge vibration.
I don't know what became of the machine as the site was due for closure a few months later and i left the company during those months.

Core4 Guy
17-02-2008, 08:46 PM
Mono Screw... I going to give an opinion. I can do and have done alot more with Vilter Screws than I ever could do with FES's. There is a difference with the machine, first the slide valves allow for variable compression, unlike fixed compression allows for lower energy cost when reducing compression(i.e. floating head). When your dealing with percentages they count. The machine is solid and easy to repair, i've been though a few(for fun).

The company on the other hand. The problems start and end with Ron. They appartly have been working on the problem and have increased there customer service.

I haven't bought a VSS/VSM for 4 years and have been using FES on my projects due to the small market thought process. I do plan to buy them again...

Great Sales help nice guys, great machine! Past Vilter appologist.

Rick

sagittarius
25-02-2008, 09:11 AM
I wanna know about Vilter single screw compressor. product qualities, markets,etc.

sagittarius
14-03-2008, 10:10 AM
It seems that anyone don't wanna talk about the compressor manufacture.
I know few about single screw.Maybe twin screw is better.
But, how about going to work for Vilter company???

Josip
15-03-2008, 05:35 PM
Hi, sagittarius :)


It seems that anyone don't wanna talk about the compressor manufacture.
I know few about single screw.Maybe twin screw is better.
But, how about going to work for Vilter company???

....seems all of us here are users of compressors and not manufacturers...and for us is not easy to speak about...simply, it is not our field of interest;)..., but maybe I am wrong...

mono or twin screw compressor....which is better.... there are always pro and contra points, so.... but, definitely each manufacturer should always declare "our compressor is the best one" ... for us remain, only to believe or not, :D........usually from our experience we have a slightly different story...

....to work or not for Vilter, either, must be your decision only;)....

Best regards, Josip :)

US Iceman
15-03-2008, 06:05 PM
I know few about single screw.Maybe twin screw is better.
But, how about going to work for Vilter company???


Why does it matter which screw compressor is better? Or, for that matter is there a better compressor?

And, what does this have to do with the manufacturer and why you might want to work for them?

One month you ask about markets and product quality and then the next month you ask about working for a manufacturer?????

Asking which compressor is better is like asking a man if a woman is pretty. Some say yes, others may not (but not in front of the woman:D)

SteinarN
15-03-2008, 10:55 PM
The subject of variable Vi is very interesting. As i have said before, i have not any experience with large and/or industrial systems. On dual screw compressors with variable Vi, i clearly see the need for fully independent movement of the capasity slide and the varable Vi slide in order to maintain the best isentropic efficiency at all pressure and load ratios. I have however got the impression that variable Vi is not fully acomplished when the compressor is running in part load. Can someone explain if this is the case and why?

TXiceman
16-03-2008, 01:28 AM
Variable Vi has been over sold in the market. There are lots of applications where variable Vi is not worth the cost. Frick only offered machines with Variable Vi and FES offered both.

For a booster, variable Vi is a waste of money and adds complexity tot he compressor as well as additional rebuild cost.

On a high stage compressor, you will see a small gain with varying head pressure. A much better gain is seen whe you vary the suction pressure.

Vi = Vol @ suction/Vol @ discharger ....or
Vi = (Pd/Ps)^k.

Work out the numbers and it is pretty easy to see.

I am old school and prefer the twin rotor design over the single rotor. My experience on the single rotor machines has been with the old Grasso and Hall machines. As for Vilter, I have see way to many "problem" jobs.

AS for the twin rotor machines, FES (GEA), Frick, Howden and Mycom (alphabetical order) all build very good machines. Which is better, depends on the specific application.

Ken

sagittarius
16-03-2008, 06:26 AM
Maybe I have asked a stupid question.:o
It's a flash idea in my mind to work for manufacuture.
Yes. Each of manufacuture says "I'm the best,Im No.1...":p

US Iceman
16-03-2008, 06:55 PM
Working for manufacturers will allow you to learn a lot in a short time. They see every little problem you can think of with refrigeraiton systems.

Why?

Because everyone always blames the equipment for not working properly and they have to work with the customer to provide a solution.;)

If you do this for the learning experience it is OK. If you do this for the money you will be disappointed.

Kamaludeen
24-02-2009, 08:49 PM
good day,Hello Sir, I am kamaludeen from saudi Arabia. We have Hallscrew HS2031 compressors with fridgewatch 2000 controller. We have problem with this controller. Could you please help me in solving the problem or please send me the resetting controller manual to my mail ID
Hi dvtruc,
in my experience there is little differance in performance or effeciency, the only draw back with single Halls screws is the increased maintenance requirement compared to a single screw of the same duty. This is offset a little by the loe cost of the service spares. If you have a number of Halls screw requiring the same tool kit costs are reduced, if not it is very expensive to buy the tools just to maintain one or two screw compressors.
Stick to a twin screw such as a Howden unless you are able to do the overalls yourself and you have the tools.
Regards. Andy:)

charlie n
25-02-2009, 01:45 AM
Hi Mark C:)
I have seen a little more of the technology behind the Vilter recently, the cool compression seems a good idea. I don,t think Vilter are going for the low temperature market:eek:
Kind Regards. Andy.:)

Stay away from cool compression. It acts up terribly if condensing pressure changes during operation. The advantages just don't outweigh the potential problems.

HallsEngineer
03-03-2009, 07:46 PM
Reality check here. The screws dont have much between them. seriously they are practically the same in every way. All it is with reliabilty is that the engineer who built the machine and the engineer who is looking after the machine. All manufacturers test their machines to destruction im sure. They know what they can do. Single screw is very reliable as long as the running conditions are correct. I have had one running a very long time 10yrs+ on -25 duty single stage and has never had a bearing change. Just the same as ive seen twin screws doing the same. Design and commissioning is important but not everything.

airaakram
25-12-2009, 04:47 PM
HI every one i need tri-therm AC2120i/HA3R IOM an automation control diagrams if some one have please send it to my e-mail airaakram@yahoo.com because previous maintenance contractor has missplaced I came to know tri-therm company has closed so i unable to contact them early responce will be highly appreciated
thanks
akram

Frickman
28-12-2009, 06:57 AM
LOL I guess nobody here went to the Frick sales meeting? Nice presentation on single screws vs twin screws.

325bmw
28-01-2010, 04:40 PM
I purchased 4 Vilter VSS mono screws, had many problems with capacity control gear motors, liguid injection control and pump problems. Slide valves would rub on the screw and gate rotors would wear out quickly. Also had to rebuild each one as least once in a five year period. I now have 4 Frick RWF-II twin screws and have had to rebuild only one in ten years.