supermarkets 2 industrial

[coolhibby1875]

hi i am an engineer with 16 years sevice experience 12 as an engineer with the company i am currently employed with i have only ever worked in the supermarket/commercial side off the trade servicing all the major supermarkets and all the not so major ones too. however i have been told that soon i will be servicing industrial refrigeration soon i.e large food processing plants and distribution bases that all operate on large screw type plant on ammonia refrigerant can anyone tell me if there is any differance working in this field or is it just the same as what im used to i think it sounds a bit off a nightmare or is a case off what my boss is saying that a fridge is just a fridge your views would be most gratefull

[Grizzly]

hi i am an engineer with 16 years sevice experience 12 as an engineer with the company i am currently employed with i have only ever worked in the supermarket/commercial side off the trade servicing all the major supermarkets and all the not so major ones too. however i have been told that soon i will be servicing industrial refrigeration soon i.e large food processing plants and distribution bases that all operate on large screw type plant on ammonia refrigerant can anyone tell me if there is any differance working in this field or is it just the same as what im used to i think it sounds a bit off a nightmare or is a case off what my boss is saying that a fridge is just a fridge your views would be most gratefull
Coolhibby.
I am just stunned by your post. Do you have any colleagues who have Industrial AMMONIA Experiance.
I presume not or else you would not be making general statements about servicing this type of equipment.
If your Boss believes you can just walk in and treat it as yet another fridge job. WELL!
I can't print what I really think its insane to even think you could do so.
Sorry not having a go at you but it is ludicrous!
Who do you work for It can't be anyone that knows what they are doing?
Unless your leading us all on and you have experianced Colleagues to show you the ropes.
Please tell me this is a joke!
Grizzly

[US Iceman]

...my boss is saying a fridge is just a fridge...


NOPE!

While industrial refrigeration systems operate on the same principles as commercial refrigeration, that is where the similarity ends.

Ammonia systems are designed in a totally different manner in which any commercial tech would be familiar with.

AND, ammonia is nothing to screw around with!

I'm not saying any of this lightly as I don't want to see anyone get hurt. Usually when I hear things like this it reminds me of business owners looking to make a fast dollar or save one.:mad:

You should give any request to just dive in with serious consideration for yourself and famliy.

[Taaz1275]

Coolhibby,
I thank you for bringing up that question and seeking for guidances ..as for me ..I've worked on domestic, commercial to industrial refrigeration with units running off a hermetic to semihermetic compressors, open drive compressors to rotary and centrfugal compressors and even industrial screw compressors...but never worked on ammonia industrial systems...I've been asaking myself the very same questuion and I do believe that the question was well answered by US Iceman and Grizzly...I agree with both of them....ammonia system is a totally different system and you need to take a course on it to understand it more.

[coolhibby1875]

hi guys thanks for info i wish i was joking about it like i say the company is tendering for 2 contracts in the industrial side off the trade and is looking like we will get them also there are no engineers at my company with any experience in this field however we will be looking for some again thanks for confirming what i already thought

[US Iceman]

If you have not worked on an ammonia system before, and your boss will not send you to any training classes, and you then still go work on this, all I can say is good luck and be careful.

There are too many people who think ammonia systems are nothing special. I see this all the time here in the States. Someone gets a "brilliant" idea to start doing ammonia work who have no experience or design knowledge and then try to obtain this knowledge from a book or old out-dated literature.

These are not normal refrigeration systems as some would have you believe. This is not job protection, it's personal safety...yours.

[Gary]

This brings back fond memories.

Over the past 40 years, I have worked on just about everything. At one point in my career, I went to work for a company which specialized in ammonia systems.

They loaded me up with all the ammonia equipment and sent me out to a job.

I returned a few hours later, unloaded all the ammonia equipment and said, "I don't do ammonia. Find me some ***** equipment to work on or someone else will".

The "stinkies" (as we used to call ammonia techs) thought this was all pretty funny, but they found me some ***** jobs and I continued working there for the next 8 years. I never worked on ammonia again.

The aqueous ammonia cleaner sold at the local supermarket is bad enough, but the pure ammonia used in refrigeration systems is downright nasty stuff. It can and will attack you.

And yes, ammonia systems are different.

[NH3LVR]

And yes, ammonia systems are different.
As are the guys who work on them:D

[Grizzly]

hi guys thanks for info i wish i was joking about it like i say the company is tendering for 2 contracts in the industrial side off the trade and is looking like we will get them also there are no engineers at my company with any experience in this field however we will be looking for some again thanks for confirming what i already thought

Coolhibby (hibby is scotish for something isn't it?)
I am glad you understand what myself and our eloquent Us colleagues are saying. I could guarantee that with your experiance you could like most people on this forum learn how to deal with Ammonia quite quickly and competantly.
There is no hard and fast rule and working practices differ from Company to Company. Generally most of the "stinkies" (nice one Gary at least we don't work on "Girly Gas that comes in pink cylinders)... Sadly I now do as there is not enough full time stinky work.
Getting back to the point most of us try and have a second person around when opening up a system. Or carrying out high risk jobs. Not allways practical I know but preferable!
I reccomend you get involved, as an engineer it's very rewarding work. But you need to things first
A colleague who experianced and a Ammonia Safe Handling 2078 Certificate.
I have never had to look for trainers in Scotland so I don't know the situation there, Lots and lots of good Industrial Engineers though.
In England there are not that many doing this one but their are some good trainers on this forum. PM me if not sure!
Yes it is nasty stuff but because you can smell 2 parts per million with the human nose. You rarely walk into it unknowingly. w

[iced]

Grizzly has some very valid points........I made the transition from commercial to industrial 14 years ago and luckily I did it with one of the best companies. Going back to Grizzly, he is correct on training, City & Guilds have different certificates, ACRIB have different card, trainers have different courses for a resaon when it comes to ammonia handling. Did you know its toxic, expolsive 16-28% vol. Attacks copper, zinc and other alloys.

I have attahced a couple of pics of what it can get up to with the human body.

I am responsible for our industrial fridge in Scotland. You not winning the tender could suit us both..lol.:D

1961

1962

[Josip]

Hi, coolhibby1875 :)


hi guys thanks for info i wish i was joking about it like i say the company is tendering for 2 contracts in the industrial side off the trade and is looking like we will get them also there are no engineers at my company with any experience in this field however we will be looking for some again thanks for confirming what i already thought

maybe me;) ....free for the moment....never been in Scotland....


Ammonia Safe Handling 2078 Certificate

Grizzly, please, do you have a copy of exam/lessons for this certificate ....kindly ask to send one to me;)....must not be very hard.....course last only 2 days:eek:.....

I'm for decades in this trade and still learning....I would like to know before that I can learn all within 2 days, perfect:rolleyes:

Best regards, Josip :)

[Grizzly]

Josip.
I may well have something, if it's relevant I will PM you for your postal address.
Although I think you have hit "The Nail on the Head"
As we say. Both C.I.T.B. AND C&G are starting points. Similar to having obtained your driving licence. You the go out and learn!
But and it's a big BUT at least you have had someone explain how dangerous it can be. And how to safely "approach the task ".
Most of the guys in Ammonia I know are familiar with their systems and have been shown the ropes before taking their safe handling certificates.
Hence my shock at the initial post. These certs should just be confirmation of what you know Josip. C.I.T.B. is renewed every three years and an open book exam. City & Guilds is "for life" and a closed book exam.
A very Knowledgeable and Experianced Trainer on this forum said to me recently that he "could gauge the proficency of an Engineer by talking to him for 10 mins or so!"
I believe him.
Iced.
Now that's cruel showing those pictures anyone would think it's dangerous stuff.
I hope many of the managers take note of this thread and next time you use the word "JUST" when associated with Ammonia work you will stop and think of the "Stinkies".
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Pooh]

Iced
I like the pictures but using them as an indication of how dangerous ammonia is seems slightly misleading, both of the injuries shown could easily have been caused by the so called safe refrigerants.
I deal with ammonia all the time and train people to use it and non ammonia refrigerants, yes the components are different but to be honest I beleive ammonia is the safest refrigerant we use in this industry because anybody coming into contact with it respects it, unfortunately most of the so called engineers I come into contact with treat non ammonia refrigerants with total contempt.

Saying that Coolhibby you are not on your own, I am seeing more and more engineers from companies that have not historically worked with ammonia coming on the ammonia handling course. From my point of veiw the course is thereto give them a basic knowledge of how to stay safe when working with ammonia not how to repair the systems, that has to come from experience and other training.
I moved from the commercial sector into industrial and found it a total culture shock but very rewarding.

Ian

[Grizzly]

Iced
I like the pictures but using them as an indication of how dangerous ammonia is seems slightly misleading, both of the injuries shown could easily have been caused by the so called safe refrigerants.
I deal with ammonia all the time and train people to use it and non ammonia refrigerants, yes the components are different but to be honest I beleive ammonia is the safest refrigerant we use in this industry because anybody coming into contact with it respects it, unfortunately most of the so called engineers I come into contact with treat non ammonia refrigerants with total contempt.

Saying that Coolhibby you are not on your own, I am seeing more and more engineers from companies that have not historically worked with ammonia coming on the ammonia handling course. From my point of veiw the course is thereto give them a basic knowledge of how to stay safe when working with ammonia not how to repair the systems, that has to come from experience and other training.
I moved from the commercial sector into industrial and found it a total culture shock but very rewarding.

Ian
Now that's what I call a Very Knowledgeable and Experianced Trainer.
Grizzlyhttp://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Pooh]

Grizzly
monies in the post.


Ian

[taz24]

Oh get a room will ya:D


taz.

[iced]

Iced
I like the pictures but using them as an indication of how dangerous ammonia is seems slightly misleading, both of the injuries shown could easily have been caused by the so called safe refrigerants.
I deal with ammonia all the time and train people to use it and non ammonia refrigerants, yes the components are different but to be honest I beleive ammonia is the safest refrigerant we use in this industry because anybody coming into contact with it respects it, unfortunately most of the so called engineers I come into contact with treat non ammonia refrigerants with total contempt.

Saying that Coolhibby you are not on your own, I am seeing more and more engineers from companies that have not historically worked with ammonia coming on the ammonia handling course. From my point of veiw the course is thereto give them a basic knowledge of how to stay safe when working with ammonia not how to repair the systems, that has to come from experience and other training.
I moved from the commercial sector into industrial and found it a total culture shock but very rewarding.

Ian

Pooh
Your right the pics are a bit graphic and should not give any sense of false security with other refigerants, and not put off ammonia all together. As with many guys I would rather work on ammonia and would encourage others that it can be worked on safely and with respect. We just need to ensure the guys making the move to ammonia know how to deal with it and do not get caught out. Yes the handling courses are a good way to start, but will not make you an ammonia engineer overnight

[coolhibby1875]

Once Again Guys Thanks For All The Replies All Your Advise Is Appreciated

[Grizzly]

Guys.
All this H&S talk about Ammonia propted me to look out a H&S Booklet I have and whilst browsing through it I came across the following which I thought I would share :-
"Never use contact lenses when you work with Ammonia. In case of Ammonia splashes in your eyes.
Because contact lenses can be glued to the cornea.
Which will result in permenent eye damage."
Now that's one that is not taught in Safe Handling classes. Well not any of the ones I have attended!
Relevant if you are like me where due to age, you have to wear specs for close up work.
I have recently obtained one of the Escape Mask type hoods. Which are better for those who wear glssses.
Cheers Grizzly http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[US Iceman]

Hey Grizzly, I had not heard the comment about ammonia gluing the contact lenses to corneas before, but then if you got splashed with liquid ammonia in the eyes the contact lenses may be the least of your problems.

The ensuing tissue damage from freezing and dessication would almost certainly be a show stopper long before the contact lenses would (I think, but then I'm not a doctor either:confused:).

Contacts and ammonia vapor can be dangerous since the lenses tend to hold moisture close to the eye. This moisture can absorb ammonia vapor from the atmosphere in the same way we get diaper rash when working in a stinky area.

I agree with your use of the hoods. I too wear specs and prefer to use a full face respirator mask. The face is protected and the respirator part helps to minimize surprise when something goes poof unexpectedly!

[Grizzly]

Yo! Iceman.
Good to have your input!
Historically I had a colleague who had his face sprayed with a concetrated Hydrous Ammonia. A air purger he was working on blew up in his face. He CRAWLED out of the plant room on his hands and knees SCREAMING.
We were outside in the tea hut (having a cup of tea) when we heard him. The first one out the door was the wisened old Handyman. Who whilst we were all thinking about it. Grabbed the guy plus the cold water hose for washing down the yard from nearby. Turned on the hose and Dreanched the guy. KEEPING THE HOSE ON HIM AND SCREAMING FOR HIM TO OPEN HIS EYES.
He was rushed to hospital and apart from a course of cream for his eyes was no worse for wear.
The hospital said that the Handymans quick reaction saved the guys eyesight. The guys name was Cliff. Who when I last heard was working for Star in Bristol.
I learnt a lot from cliff and also learned that even the most seasoned of engineers don't allways come up to the mark, when things go wrong!
You may have seen this but for anyone else.
Check out the You Tube link below.
Grizzly
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1OR7A5jWmDs:

[US Iceman]

Thanks for the video Grizzly. Anyone watching that closely would see the skin damage on the arms of one of the victims.

You also bring up a good point about the water. You normally hear things like: spray water on the affected area for 15 minutes and get the person to a hospital.

We have to remember the ammonia we use is anhydrous, so it loves water. From my perspective we should deluge the patient with as much water as possible for as long as possible. Spraying water on an affected area provides more "free" water for the ammonia to go to, rather than the ammonia pulling water from the body. That's were the damage gets done.

Accidents created by people are one of the biggest causes of injury. I hope anyone reading this takes this to heart.

[coolhibby1875]

hi grizzly thanks for the little clip after watching it i am glad i have asked the question to the forum as amonnia is clearly not to be handled unless you have been very well trained to do so i think i will just stick to supermarkets and good old 404a thanks again ;)

[Josip]

Hi, coolhibby1875 :)


hi grizzly thanks for the little clip after watching it i am glad i have asked the question to the forum as amonnia is clearly not to be handled unless you have been very well trained to do so i think i will just stick to supermarkets and good old 404a thanks again ;)

decision must be done by you, definitely......but, in my opinion wrong one, sorry for you;)

404a is not good (and not safe-better to say quiet killer) and can kill you easier then my friend ammonia;)

Best regards, Josip :)

[richardb14]

what company do you work with hibby?

I am a Jambo btw :)

[coolhibby1875]

hi richardb i will not say which company i work for however they are probally the biggest in the uk and have a base in edinburgh and will more than likley buy the company you work for in the not so distant futchure.Sorry i dont mean to sound like a tottal ****head but these are the rumours which are circulating around my work.if you still dont know who i work for think which company you lost sainsburys too and you will know who i work for by the way how is j w doing also i am sorry to hear that you are a jambo just like j.w however someone has to suport them only joking see you in a couple off months coolhibby1875