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Peter_1
26-12-2007, 02:59 PM
http://www.jarn.co.jp/News/2004_Q2/40629_Growing_CO2.htm

Thermatech
26-12-2007, 05:36 PM
I had hoped to flush out some Japanese engineers who watch this site with the post a few weeks back about EcoCute heat pumps.
It would seem they are too shy to make any comment.

Argus
27-12-2007, 12:03 PM
.

Eco-Cute?

Who dreams up these names......?

.

IceMan_4000
10-06-2008, 09:14 PM
LOL totally a Japanese name, the sad part is now it is like the industry name for all like products that fit into this.

The liquid to liquid eco-cute we carry can pull off a COP of 8 when both the cooing and heating aplications are utilized

fullmatty
22-11-2009, 01:32 AM
Why dont you call your Local Mycom if all else fails call Canada Mycom they have all the information on Eco Cute.

coldwine
23-02-2010, 09:29 PM
For some background on the name ECO CUTE:
if the word "cute" in japanese is spelled or interpreted a certain way it actually means "hot water heating", so if you know the definition which was created by a consortium of Companies in Japan when these were first developed, the name really means Eco Hot Water Heating.
We now have available a water source 80kW CO2 heat pump for US market and using them for wineries and other HVAC applications where a high hot water temp is required (up to 194F). Best when used as a hot water heater and chiller at the same time for maximum COP.

mad fridgie
23-02-2010, 10:40 PM
For some background on the name ECO CUTE:
if the word "cute" in japanese is spelled or interpreted a certain way it actually means "hot water heating", so if you know the definition which was created by a consortium of Companies in Japan when these were first developed, the name really means Eco Hot Water Heating.
We now have available a water source 80kW CO2 heat pump for US market and using them for wineries and other HVAC applications where a high hot water temp is required (up to 194F). Best when used as a hot water heater and chiller at the same time for maximum COP.

What is the :D price of one of these 80Kw CO2 units,
retail, trade, wholesale. I am sure we are all interested.
cheers
Mad

desA
24-02-2010, 03:02 AM
Hope you'll be seated, when you hear, MF... :D

I'd expect ~ Euro 40,000, ex works.

coldwine
24-02-2010, 03:05 AM
The cost of CO2 heat pumps depends on what features are ordered with unit.....communication package with remote capability, optimized heat exchanger for fluid temperatures etc....these units are UL rated, performance tested under lab conditions and certified/insured for US market. Getting a CO2 heat pump UL rated and insured for US market is VERY expensive due to pressure testing and other requirements, so you cannot compare this unit to a "garage built" system that anyone can throw together and give it some crazy COP with no real performance data. With that said, units are in the $650 to $850 US per kW list price. Discounts for wholesale, multiple unit orders etc... are lower.

desA
24-02-2010, 04:32 AM
...units are in the $650 to $850 US per kW list price. Discounts for wholesale, multiple unit orders etc... are lower.

At 80kW => $ 52,000 - $ 68,000 = Euro 38,520 - 50,370...

I wasn't far off the mark. :eek:

At those prices, I'd say that these units are on a hiding to nothing. When you run under hot ambient conditions, & high Tc,suc, you will find out that CO2 will not work as well as you think. Be warned.

mad fridgie
24-02-2010, 05:05 AM
The cost of CO2 heat pumps depends on what features are ordered with unit.....communication package with remote capability, optimized heat exchanger for fluid temperatures etc....these units are UL rated, performance tested under lab conditions and certified/insured for US market. Getting a CO2 heat pump UL rated and insured for US market is VERY expensive due to pressure testing and other requirements, so you cannot compare this unit to a "garage built" system that anyone can throw together and give it some crazy COP with no real performance data. With that said, units are in the $650 to $850 US per kW list price. Discounts for wholesale, multiple unit orders etc... are lower.
Hi thanks for that, i have been designing and building CO2 systems for over 20 years, transcritical or sub critical. not for refrigeration, but liquification, starting from 1Barg, There is nothing new my freind.
What pressure are you talking about, it is only 100Bar, you have more in your car braking system.
My dive bottles have more, so does every oxygen and nitrogen bottle. It sound like you are building in a garage, if you are having to put total testing cost against single machines. I already purchase UL rated vessels and heat exchangers out of the USA. Not that expensive.
I think you need to look at your production procedures, to reduce the need for individual test regimes. Look at how the NH3 boys do it.
As far as my machine, no it does not use CO2, so i do not need to spend all that money of certification.
But my machine "built in a garage", more of a "**** box really". But does have few test facilities and instrumentation, maybe my $500,000, is not worth FA, in the USA.
As far independent testing, my machines have been tested MEPs approved facillities. By others.
But lets talk technical.
If i were to use 2 stage compression (like a CO2 system), my COPs would go up even futher.
CO2 heat pump efficiency comes from heating water from cold to hot, but is quite poor, if heat water from warm to hot, so do not spout high COPs unless you can clarify your data.
CO2 is over priced engineering, brought about by marketting and greenies.
it has it place in energy transportation (supermarket) with a NH3 liquifier. great, but as a heat pump very little difference to what can be achieved using more convential methods (applied in a more unique manner)
How many of these systems have you sold?
from my garage (i am only a little company, i am sorry for that, I wish I had all the hassles of employing many staff!!!)
I have sold few, my competion who produce a similar product (in the sense it produces 85C hot water) have sold over 3000, at a price of 330US$/Kw
They happen to be a USA owned company, but maybe a bit advanced for you guys.
JOKE.
CO2 is Ok, but is just another refrigerant, it has its place, but it is not a wonder refrigerant.
If you want to be rebel, design a heat pump around water as a refrigerant, now get that right and you will be on winner.

mad fridgie
24-02-2010, 05:11 AM
Hope you'll be seated, when you hear, MF... :D

I'd expect ~ Euro 40,000, ex works.
Give this man a doughnut, good guess!:D

desA
24-02-2010, 05:14 AM
Give this man a doughnut, good guess!:D

It's called "doing the homework"... :D

I'm on diet - no donuts allowed... :mad:

mad fridgie
24-02-2010, 05:21 AM
It's called "doing the homework"... :D

I'm on diet - no donuts allowed... :mad:
Back to school

How about a gold star, to stick on your homework book.

Well that is what we had, when i was a boy:cool:

desA
24-02-2010, 05:57 AM
^ Hahaha... gold star it is... :D

coldwine
24-02-2010, 05:54 PM
Wow, what a great forum! Seems like two guys run the thing. Forums like this are to supposed to share and present information, not bash it. Someone at the top of the thread had interest, so we simply presented it as an option.
Nothing intended to discredit anyone or any product, just information.
If you understand about UL with packaging a piece of equipment with CO2, you understand costs. You can't compare this to a dive bottle or anything else, as UL treats this differently. We also understand production, as being a manufacturer for over 25 years now, so not that easy to just give away units. Over a short time as the other markets have shown with more competition, the price will go down quite a bit.
I know your US manufacturer quite well and they are a good company. Have purchased a lot of product from them as a matter of fact, but thanks for the bash on our intelligence.
These units are not hiding either, over 300 sold in one year and made in a high quality ISO 9001 facility with the best manufacturing equipment available.
Last, it was not said that CO2 was a wonder refrigerant, quite the contrary. It needs to be applied a certain way, or it really offers no benefit, other than one MAJOR fact. Look at it's GWP and ODP and compare it to what you are using, other than ammonia of course which in our opinion is probably the best. Of course the topic of GW is a hot bed with some believing it and others not.
Sorry for offending anyone here, that was not the intention at all.

desA
24-02-2010, 06:39 PM
To be honest, CO2 is really only where it is due to an excessive subsidy from the Japanese government.

Let's give this technology some time to settle down, before making extraordinary claims. I suspect that in hindsight, that an alternative like HFO will come along for the commercial sector, & outpace CO2. Simplicity & price will be the keys.

I frankly think that if you try to justify your prices on the latest environmental fad, that your business model may very well suffer.

You are having a go at MF & I, for our comments. For the record, we are both designers of heat-pumps systems, amongst other things. So, practically, we, as well as many others on RE, are fully aware of CO2 - it is nothing new.

I wish you all the very best of success with your products. Do try to chill a little. Sorry if you were offended.

mad fridgie
24-02-2010, 10:10 PM
Hi coldwine, yes certain threads seem to be taken over by a few (those who are interested in certain subjects) but not the whole forum.
We also like to have a little banter (fun) during these threads.
I also aplogise for my original comment, must have had a"bad hair day"
CO2 has been a refrigerant for many years (one of the original)
It re-appeared about 20years ago in heat pump applications, one of the biggest problems was find compressor which were leak proof (shaft seals) and at resonable price.
The biggest innovation has been the production of semi and hermetic compressors.
This has allowed for a increased applications in the CO2 market.
My main gripe is the over push on enviromental issues and over stating practical performance (this is not just about CO2)
These range of products should stand up on their own two feet (I think you have covered this in another thread)
You are correct i am not aware of the legal aspects. (it would seem the cost of running a business is more than doing the business)
As engineers we are disappointed that CO2 packaged manufactures seem to give little info on not steady state performance, all that seems to be available is optimum peak performance.
So i as simple performance question.
Hot side water entering 55C leaving 80C (rad system)
Cold side glycol eneterning -2C leaving -5C (closed ground loop, or winery chiller temps)
what would the system COP be? (hot only and hot and cold combined)

coldwine
25-02-2010, 03:12 AM
Mf, for the condition you describe, rather low COP as out of the sweet spot for these units with a low TD on hot side. As you know, the CO2 heat pump can achieve an 80 to 90 F rise across the gas cooler in only one pass, so the lower the TD, the lower the performance. We might get 1.6 to 2.0 for cooling and a little more for heating depending on flow rates at those conditions. In addition, the cold side temperatures you gave are also out of the sweet spot a little, best performance at heat recovery temperatures down to chilled water temperatures at 42 to 48 F or so. In our wineries here, we usually operate at these temperatures most of the year, then for a short time for cold stabilization, we go down to those lower temperatures of 26 F.
At higher cold side temperatures and with a large TD across hot side, these units really can achieve high COP's up to 7 or more and this has been field proven.
Please remember to all that these units are really designed to address replacment issues with boilers and other polluting fuel burning devices, and not take the place of other heat pump systems, products etc...In California, tighter regulations are being placed (for some good cause too) on gas buring devices such as old boilers, electric water heaters etc...as well as a new Refrigerant Management plan just now adopted requiring much stricter reporting and record keeping of HCFC, HFC etc... based refrigerants. There is also a lot of solar PV here, so many interested in "offgrid" central systems, so electric heat pumps fit well for those. This product is only one solution, but it is available to address these needs. We find it best to not wait for another man made chemical refrigerant to "replace" the existing systems and be a cure all. We have been doing that for long enough and it is time to put the HVACR platform to front and center, to show how an Industry can work together and really make a fast and forward thinking solution to energy issues. Whether one believes in Global Warming or not, it is a fact that we cannot go on polluting the environment and creating new gases and chemicals, when we already have the best refrigerants available known to man kind, ammonia, CO2, water, air and nitrogen. Let's all move forward!

mad fridgie
25-02-2010, 04:00 AM
Mf, for the condition you describe, rather low COP as out of the sweet spot for these units with a low TD on hot side. As you know, the CO2 heat pump can achieve an 80 to 90 F rise across the gas cooler in only one pass, so the lower the TD, the lower the performance. We might get 1.6 to 2.0 for cooling and a little more for heating depending on flow rates at those conditions. In addition, the cold side temperatures you gave are also out of the sweet spot a little, best performance at heat recovery temperatures down to chilled water temperatures at 42 to 48 F or so. In our wineries here, we usually operate at these temperatures most of the year, then for a short time for cold stabilization, we go down to those lower temperatures of 26 F.
At higher cold side temperatures and with a large TD across hot side, these units really can achieve high COP's up to 7 or more and this has been field proven.
Please remember to all that these units are really designed to address replacment issues with boilers and other polluting fuel burning devices, and not take the place of other heat pump systems, products etc...In California, tighter regulations are being placed (for some good cause too) on gas buring devices such as old boilers, electric water heaters etc...as well as a new Refrigerant Management plan just now adopted requiring much stricter reporting and record keeping of HCFC, HFC etc... based refrigerants. There is also a lot of solar PV here, so many interested in "offgrid" central systems, so electric heat pumps fit well for those. This product is only one solution, but it is available to address these needs. We find it best to not wait for another man made chemical refrigerant to "replace" the existing systems and be a cure all. We have been doing that for long enough and it is time to put the HVACR platform to front and center, to show how an Industry can work together and really make a fast and forward thinking solution to energy issues. Whether one believes in Global Warming or not, it is a fact that we cannot go on polluting the environment and creating new gases and chemicals, when we already have the best refrigerants available known to man kind, ammonia, CO2, water, air and nitrogen. Let's all move forward!
Thank you for reply and giving the correct honest answers. Of course i knew what the answers would be (but was hoping to be suprised), but is a fairly typical of many sitiuations, down here.
As an engineer ???????????, I some times get frustrated by sales techniquies, where client expectations can not reached, which in the long term damages the industry not improves it. Most of us know very little about industries that we are not associated with, we tend to us major bullet points given by experts to help our decision making process.
In your original comments you stated upto 194F (in most minds that means 194F) using both heating and cooling for maximium COP (8 stated earlier by others). As a uniformed client I would expect close to these results (or do i give not enough cridit to clients) For this reason did i start with a negative comment. "why bother"
I have had a look at your web site, "very nice",
In these feilds, fundementals do not change, tweeks can be made, to increase performance, the art is in application.

desA
25-02-2010, 04:15 AM
Mf, for the condition you describe, rather low COP as out of the sweet spot for these units with a low TD on hot side.

Could you perhaps tell us what your sweet spot is, then? We could use this as a means of comparison. May I suggest, for illustrative purposes, that we base our calculations around CoolPack 1.48?


As you know, the CO2 heat pump can achieve an 80 to 90 F (44.4 to 50 K) rise across the gas cooler in only one pass, so the lower the TD, the lower the performance. We might get 1.6 to 2.0 for cooling and a little more for heating depending on flow rates at those conditions.

When you say 1.6-2.0 for cooling & a 'little more' for heating, can you please expand on this?


In addition, the cold side temperatures you gave are also out of the sweet spot a little, best performance at heat recovery temperatures down to chilled water temperatures at 42 to 48 F (5.6 to 8.9 'C) or so. In our wineries here, we usually operate at these temperatures most of the year, then for a short time for cold stabilization, we go down to those lower temperatures of 26 F (-3.3 'C).

Can you select your ideal 'sweet spot' & then compute the COP,r & COP,hp accordingly?


At higher cold side temperatures and with a large TD across hot side, these units really can achieve high COP's up to 7 or more and this has been field proven.


Can you perhaps state your required TD, for these sweet spots?

I'd also like to suggest, in fairness, that others then be allowed the same courteousy of evaluating equivalent HFC, or alternative heat-pump circuits for a true comparison of operating issues, costs, & so forth. This could be an interesting exercise all round.

mad fridgie
25-02-2010, 04:59 AM
Down loaded PDF of coldwines ecocute.
just one question do you manafacture this machine or are just a re-seller?
Why I ask is the the product labels has been blanked out.

desA
25-02-2010, 05:21 AM
http://i46.tinypic.com/35jw9xz.png

Is that what you meant? :eek:

desA
25-02-2010, 05:25 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/2w40d9e.png

... again.

mad fridgie
25-02-2010, 05:30 AM
Ah yes,

Done some quick calcs based upon
HWW-2HTC, Heat recovery type, (normally I produce water at 85C) so a little bit of theory work on heat exchanger selection (no practical comparrision)
Boost with SFT would give a COP of
"11.9"
Heat 107.4Kw
Cool 90.5KW
Power 16.67Kw
Price about $US 20,000
This is not a product, but based upon a product.

mad fridgie
25-02-2010, 05:46 AM
One thing that does need to be point out COP is not the most important factor when installing one of these type of systems.
Run time is the most important factor.
It can be difficult to match heating and cooling loads, as many clients tend to need more of one than the other. What is required for equipment selection are a group of "load" profiles,
you may find it is better to run machine at 90% high efficiency and 10% low effriciency, than try to have a machine that runs 100% at an intermidiate efficiency.

coldwine
25-02-2010, 06:07 AM
The product is similar to what is shown with modifications made to components and made at same factory as you know, hence the blockout of the name. We now have better performance with gas cooler modifications then previously shown on website, but they are close. We never overtstated the COP of this unit as others suggested. It is what the field tests show.
Thanks for showing such nice photos of the units to desA. Really not the most appropriate thing to do. Once again, an agenda comes out by two. You are the one that needs to chill, as that is rather unprofessional and demonstrating poor judgment on your part. It seems no need for a comparison now, as one member already has such a wonder machine that is selling like crazy for such low cost and solving all of the issues at hand. If the thing really exists as said, I might buy a hundred of them right now, with proper certification of course.
It is said "it is much easier to criticize one's working version, than having a working version of your own".

Gary
25-02-2010, 06:56 AM
The product is similar to what is shown with modifications made to components and made at same factory as you know, hence the blockout of the name. We now have better performance with gas cooler modifications then previously shown on website, but they are close. We never overtstated the COP of this unit as others suggested. It is what the field tests show.
Thanks for showing such nice photos of the units to desA. Really not the most appropriate thing to do. Once again, an agenda comes out by two. You are the one that needs to chill, as that is rather unprofessional and demonstrating poor judgment on your part. It seems no need for a comparison now, as one member already has such a wonder machine that is selling like crazy for such low cost and solving all of the issues at hand. If the thing really exists as said, I might buy a hundred of them right now, with proper certification of course.
It is said "it is much easier to criticize one's working version, than having a working version of your own".

You push your products and your environmental politics, as well as accusing others of building inferior products in their garage... but it is everyone else who has an agenda.

mad fridgie
25-02-2010, 07:16 AM
The product is similar to what is shown with modifications made to components and made at same factory as you know, hence the blockout of the name. We now have better performance with gas cooler modifications then previously shown on website, but they are close. We never overtstated the COP of this unit as others suggested. It is what the field tests show.
Thanks for showing such nice photos of the units to desA. Really not the most appropriate thing to do. Once again, an agenda comes out by two. You are the one that needs to chill, as that is rather unprofessional and demonstrating poor judgment on your part. It seems no need for a comparison now, as one member already has such a wonder machine that is selling like crazy for such low cost and solving all of the issues at hand. If the thing really exists as said, I might buy a hundred of them right now, with proper certification of course.
It is said "it is much easier to criticize one's working version, than having a working version of your own".
I think you missed the point about the photo, when printed this sticks out, it does give the impression that you are pulling the wool over our eyes. I do not know which factory it comes from, you indicated it was manufacture by you. (if I am wrong I appologise for my presumption) Do you not think a major player like yourself should be showing your own product!
I think i clearly said "that this is not a product"
I do have products, but not a direct comparrision, as I can not see a market for this particular size.
Yes the USA paperwork sound as if it would drive me crazy, but this skill you have seems to be one of your major selling points.
i am selling hundreds, no quite (but in the budget), but selling is not skill, we all have strengths and weaknesses.
What is our agenda?
My agenda is to bring out the truth, to protect the longevity of our industry.
I also stated that COP is not the main goal, but long term savings. what is wrong with that.
Have we critisied your engineering, "no" only the sales methods.
You are a CEO you have to be able to take a bit in your stride.
good luck with your sales and developments

desA
25-02-2010, 07:19 AM
You relentlessly push your products and your environmental politics, as well as accusing others of building inferior products in their garage... but it is everyone else who has an agenda.

Does seem to be very much the case.

I'd be pleasantly surprised to see a blow-by-blow CoolPack comparison. I have no vested interest either way.

Unrelenting marketing spin generally seems to come out soft on final facts. Pumping up with air, is what it is. :D

coldwine
25-02-2010, 07:55 AM
If one thinks that by posting a simple message about availability of a piece of equipment as relentless marketing, that is ridiculous. This used to be a forum years ago to benefit all and provide all the facts whether one believes it or not. No overblown statements were made and the downfalls of using this unit were explained if anyone read that. Once again this is only an option. Everyone leaves out the fact of issues with whatever refrigerant they are using and the benefits of CO2. This is not environmental politics, but a real issue. Time to wake up about this issue and not be so scared about using CO2. The pictures are our's and not someone else's units as alluded to. No accusuations were made of inferior products, rather what is available NOW that has the required certifications needed and not something as an idea that could be used in the "future".

desA
25-02-2010, 08:58 AM
If one thinks that by posting a simple message about availability of a piece of equipment as relentless marketing, that is ridiculous. This used to be a forum years ago to benefit all and provide all the facts whether one believes it or not. No overblown statements were made and the downfalls of using this unit were explained if anyone read that. Once again this is only an option. Everyone leaves out the fact of issues with whatever refrigerant they are using and the benefits of CO2. This is not environmental politics, but a real issue. Time to wake up about this issue and not be so scared about using CO2. The pictures are our's and not someone else's units as alluded to. No accusuations were made of inferior products, rather what is available NOW that has the required certifications needed and not something as an idea that could be used in the "future".

Please send through the CoolPack review, then we can all assist. :)

mad fridgie
25-02-2010, 09:06 PM
We all agree, that we could do better to utalise our energy resources, with products like the ECOCUTE.
I also agree with coldwine, that if CO2 is to be used, you should not be scared. Yes it runs at higher pressure, so as an industry we just have change our working practices (much like when R410awas introduced) There are plenty of the shelf products which able to handle these pressure with ease "swaglock, and of the hydraulic pipe ranges" (limited to vapour diffussion)
The arguments then fall into main areas, are man made refrigerant all bad (R134a, R404a,etc).
What is the best fiiscal return on investment.
Man made refrigerants, i personally have no problems with them, as long as long as correct procedures are kept in place. (leaks, destroy etc)
Fiscal.
Coldwine has given base price structures and relevent performance is avaliable on his web site.
I have indicated what could be done with other techniquies. (perhaps this was unfair with out tech proof)
Therefore I will undertake a very simple designed system and costing as a comparrision (not what i would build I do not want to give away my trade secrets)
I am comparing against a Ecocute HWW-2HTC ($65000)
The process variables are
heating water from 17C to 65C (101.8Kw)
cooling water from 22C to 17C (82.3kw)
Power drawn 23.1Kw (COP 8)
Impressive!
I am now going to design around a simple R134a system (no smarts) similar duties usung copeland "select 7"
SCT 64C
SST 14C
SH 6
SC 6
Model selected D6DJ 400X
Heating Duty 104.5Kw
Cooling Duty 82.6kw
Power 29.8Kw
COP 6.3
Now i am going to price, cost come straight out of the local wholesaler price book (no discounts) exchange
rate 1NZ$ = 0.7US$ (in US$)
Comp D6DT400X = $10400
Cond PHE (GEA) = $2480
Evap PHE (GEA) = $2480
EEV+ Controller (Alco)=1360
Aux equipment Acc, reciever, drier, sight glass pressure switches etc.
$1500
Electrical control panel (part winding, MCBs, terminals etc) $1500
Total for main compnents = $19720,
if we double this to allow for manufacture and profit we end up with aslae price of $39440.
Quite saving over the eco cute.
Now we must look at payback.
The ecocute for work done, uses approx 6KW less power.
If the system ran 24hrs a day for 365days a year at a rate $0.1Kwhr
The saving would be $5256,
On simplistic payback the diff is about 5Years.
Practically the Ecocute would be cheaper (as stated), the R134a system would be more efficient (as stated) and it is unlikley that system is running at full capacity 100% of the time year round year to year.
I have done this not to offend, or to down grade apartical system, but to show other alternatives.

coldwine
25-02-2010, 10:48 PM
Once again, we are comparing a different type of refrigerant versus another, please remember the many other benefits of using CO2, especially in secondary cooling systems using a small charged ammonia chiller with recirc CO2 and many other applications. Heat pumps using CO2 are just one of many products, but instead of a concept product "based on a product" ???, really put product out and available that people can use and that makes economic and environmental sense.
No one should be scared of natural refrigerants, just a different procedure to learn, that's all! They offer real economic benefits as well as environmental benefits as well.

Just to stir further debate, please review the link on my website under product applications, then Co2 cooling and heating link. I can't link it here, because not enough posts I guess....It is written by a very intelligent man concerning CO2 cooling and heating applications for American Office Buildings in 2008. It is not all CO2 heat pump use, but rather CO2 cooling and heating equipment in general.

What do you think MF?, be careful he is one of your own too.....:D

coldwine
25-02-2010, 10:58 PM
In additon to the cost comparison previously offered for an alternative system, one must see that there is no cost for base of unit, no cost allowed for epoxy coated SS panels to weatherize unit, a very simple control with no remote capability, a lower quality compressor which is the main component in these units (as compared to a semi hermetic industrial quality rebuildable compressor), no certifications, no UL, no ratings, very low margin for manufacturing costs with labor etc....Hardly a real comparison.....

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 12:02 AM
In additon to the cost comparison previously offered for an alternative system, one must see that there is no cost for base of unit, no cost allowed for epoxy coated SS panels to weatherize unit, a very simple control with no remote capability, a lower quality compressor which is the main component in these units (as compared to a semi hermetic industrial quality rebuildable compressor), no certifications, no UL, no ratings, very low margin for manufacturing costs with labor etc....Hardly a real comparison.....
Good answer, I have choosen a semi hermetic compressor, to keep all things fair (would be quite a bit cheaper to use hermetics), All components used are exported from the states to NZ and have UL listings (would be cheaper with non UL listed components)
As stated i used book price for equipment not OEM production prices. (I would expect a component cost reduction in the range of 40-50%.)
I did double the cost to allow for manufacture and profit,
Housing (quite small, as system is close coupled)
As a one off, (hand made in local sheet metal work shop, galve case then powder coat) to be around NZ$1200, so approx US$840.
labour, again very simple standard refrigeration, plumbing and wiring. As a one off, a man could build and test in 20 hours (not continueos) at $50/hr
so production labour $1000, (in china $1.23:D)
We also need sundiries, a little copper, plumbing, wiring, welding, nitrogen, solder etc. Again close coupled so very little, so allow for US1000.

So based upon those rough figures, a there would be a manufacture GP of approx 42.5% (I believe that is good, well is very very good over here).

I would be comefatable supply this on a price structure, I would not on an engineering base, as there are many improvements that could be made on the base design!

But what i have given is a selection that any body can verify. (the simplest system possible)
Forgot to say based upon 50Hz, so for 60hz model will be oversized in capacity.

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 12:22 AM
Once again, we are comparing a different type of refrigerant versus another, please remember the many other benefits of using CO2, especially in secondary cooling systems using a small charged ammonia chiller with recirc CO2 and many other applications. Heat pumps using CO2 are just one of many products, but instead of a concept product "based on a product" ???, really put product out and available that people can use and that makes economic and environmental sense.
No one should be scared of natural refrigerants, just a different procedure to learn, that's all! They offer real economic benefits as well as environmental benefits as well.

Just to stir further debate, please review the link on my website under product applications, then Co2 cooling and heating link. I can't link it here, because not enough posts I guess....It is written by a very intelligent man concerning CO2 cooling and heating applications for American Office Buildings in 2008. It is not all CO2 heat pump use, but rather CO2 cooling and heating equipment in general.

What do you think MF?, be careful he is one of your own too.....:D
Hey coldwine, now your are insulting me, I am a Kiwi, not an Australian (this is a joke I know your are not insulting me :D)
As stated earlier (another thread) I totally agree CO2/NH3 combo systems certainly have there positive applications, and can have a much reduced total capital cost (not just the engine room) and excellent running costs.
Also on these reticulated systems, they would be large amounts of man made refrigerants, and due to the nature will more likely to have unfound small leaks.
In small package systems (HPs that we are looking at) refrigerant charge would be very small, and leak detection would be easy (during routine service) as each part is easily accessable.

What I am trying to put across, is that the correct product/solution is applied to the application, and this must involve an element of short and long term cost.

I will (and have) use CO2 when it best suits my client needs and I will use other refrigerants (and methods) when it best suits my clients needs.
I am not a purist, politically, engineering or on the enviroment, I try to be a realist.

desA
26-02-2010, 01:54 AM
Have the CO2 CoolPack comparisons arrived? Can we have some screen snapshots, please?

Coolwine, we need some solid numbers from your side. So far, you have evaded the technical issues, & left the game in MF's court. Your turn to put up.

AWHP:
I'd like to see your figures for a CO2 Ecocute AWHP, with ambient air in the range 35-40'C DB, RH 75%. Please do the study on CoolPack so that we can see the Te,sat value used.

AWHP - solar-assisted:
If you could then also perhaps look into a solar-assisted evaporator with Te,sat ~ 30'C. Coolpack will guide you on piping sizes. These are what I'd like to target for CO2.

Bi-stability:
Can you please update us on the way your systems deal with this issue?

coldwine
26-02-2010, 03:19 AM
desA, you are quite funny....so far evading technical issues? left the court? hardly.....we have been truthful from the first post with all of our info....the info is there for you, you have already found it, you just need to look a little harder....so you have what you need and Sherlock has done enough research now on the other parties involved to see there is no end to this argument from your side due to your time invested in other technologies such as air to water heat pumps with no mention of Co2 experience anywhere on your resume. Once you find a real commercial product with similar construction, quality of materials used, certifications, UL etc...to put up against our real product, let me know....We would be happy to evaluate anything for comparison.:)

desA
26-02-2010, 04:46 AM
Personally, I think you are good at TechnoSpin. :D

Your tech-no-information does not get past my spin filter, unfortunately. I actually don't believe that you have the faintest clue, other than what you have been told/sold. Pardon my Thai. :)

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 04:58 AM
desA, you are quite funny....so far evading technical issues? left the court? hardly.....we have been truthful from the first post with all of our info....the info is there for you, you have already found it, you just need to look a little harder....so you have what you need and Sherlock has done enough research now on the other parties involved to see there is no end to this argument from your side due to your time invested in other technologies such as air to water heat pumps with no mention of Co2 experience anywhere on your resume. Once you find a real commercial product with similar construction, quality of materials used, certifications, UL etc...to put up against our real product, let me know....We would be happy to evaluate anything for comparison.:)
Did you undertake a comparision with the simple design given. Being R134a maybe you do not need the same level of certs.
this simple design could be manufactured in the USA (less greem miles) by the many unemployed.
Regardless if we have CO2 experience or not, we are pointing out other methods to ecocute technology.
Why would you epoxy coat SS panels, unless the SS is a very low grade. This seem conterproductive to the enviromental issues.
I have to say and without shame, I used galvanised panel with no futher treatment. It is what it is a corrision resistant box. Why pay for something that has no practical use?
It is what is in the box that counts.
I do manufacture a product "Boost" but is not quite the same application, and all data is based upon heating water from 15C to 85C, i do not have practical testing for lower temps, so I am unable yo compare against your product as the data provided on your site only indicates performance upto 65C.
I use these system on dairy farms (primary market in NZ) It has a theoretical COP of 8, and a practical COP of 10.8 (the increase is due to other positive benefits within the process) Heat output is around the 20Kw mark. This unit has been built around price and engineering. Yes it would be nice if I could have have all the bells, whistles and go faster stripes. but my clientel, are not impressed, they just want to see increased product quality (milk) and a reduction in power consumption.
Does it have a rating, no, because there is no rating type for this range of products.
Has been tested yes by EECA (NZ Govt energy division) and by the local power company.
I design and we manufacture (yes in a garage), we do not badge engineer and call it our own product.

Toosh
26-02-2010, 05:01 AM
This is getting exciting

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 05:15 AM
Personally, I think you are good at TechnoSpin. :D

Your tech-no-information does not get past my spin filter, unfortunately. I actually don't beleive that you have the faintest clue, other than what you have been told/sold. :)
I think that is alittle unfair, did you not know he was trained by those who ran the USA banking and investment institutions:D

coldwine
26-02-2010, 05:36 AM
desA...thanks again for the bash....you have an agenda here to discredit anything you have no knowledge of...just look at your other postings on this website....we have looked at your "impressive" credentials and wondering when we are going to see anything you have been working on "in your heat pump lab"....I think the hot air has gotten to you in the lab....seems like you have so much to offer buried under all that paperwork that you must surely want to share a photo or specifications of something you actually have available...or soon....or not.....
We have not been told or sold anything, we do our own R & D and based on 20 years of experience with these units in the lab AND installed at real sites, we are confident of the results...let's see some examples of your engineering expertise....balls in your court...

MF....we do not "badge" engineer anything, but thanks for that....I have people on staff that would run circles around your little wonder machine with a limited application for poor dairy farmers...our equipment has a little broader range than that....we are all waiting for a photo of this unit too with some better specifications...if you do not understand why SS is epoxy coated, then you really know nothing about manufacturing...hint..it has nothing to do with cheap SS, which we do not use anyway...
Our clients in US demand a real product that will last many years...not something like you are offering:eek:
one needs to look into the mirror to see who is really decreasing the longetivity of this trade with their foolish thinking and pompous remarks....This is a website for sharing and learning, not ranting and raving....Again, our product is only one of many solutions and not the cure all that people here have said...Thanks to all that are privately contacting us from this thread with interest in products, they realize the benefits and that this website seems to be taken over by a few with hidden agendas....
Best to All!

coldwine
26-02-2010, 05:44 AM
MF...another mature comment from you..really demonstrating your knowledge of world events, congratulations...seems you exist to write stupid comments on tech blogs...seen your many other rants and raves on other threads..too bad there is no moderator to get you back on track. maybe if the Kiwis would get into the real world and not rely on support from Australia and rest of world to get by, you would actually have something to say...Don't bash my Country if you can't take the heat....
Good day to all this nonsense....

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 06:28 AM
desA...thanks again for the bash....you have an agenda here to discredit anything you have no knowledge of...just look at your other postings on this website....we have looked at your "impressive" credentials and wondering when we are going to see anything you have been working on "in your heat pump lab"....I think the hot air has gotten to you in the lab....seems like you have so much to offer buried under all that paperwork that you must surely want to share a photo or specifications of something you actually have available...or soon....or not.....
We have not been told or sold anything, we do our own R & D and based on 20 years of experience with these units in the lab AND installed at real sites, we are confident of the results...let's see some examples of your engineering expertise....balls in your court...

MF....we do not "badge" engineer anything, but thanks for that....I have people on staff that would run circles around your little wonder machine with a limited application for poor dairy farmers...our equipment has a little broader range than that....we are all waiting for a photo of this unit too with some better specifications...if you do not understand why SS is epoxy coated, then you really know nothing about manufacturing...hint..it has nothing to do with cheap SS, which we do not use anyway...
Our clients in US demand a real product that will last many years...not something like you are offering:eek:
one needs to look into the mirror to see who is really decreasing the longetivity of this trade with their foolish thinking and pompous remarks....This is a website for sharing and learning, not ranting and raving....Again, our product is only one of many solutions and not the cure all that people here have said...Thanks to all that are privately contacting us from this thread with interest in products, they realize the benefits and that this website seems to be taken over by a few with hidden agendas....
Best to All!
Keep going, good on you for standing up! I hope this is getting you orders (hope we get our share of the commission)
But we base info on facts,
lets look at the photo, has the badge been changed ? YES what are we to think.
I gave you a simple design to compare against, and for all to see and how selection has been made, no technical response from you (apart from the incorrect information you gave on the compressor)
Am I the world best manufacturer "no way" but neither are you you buy your products from overseas. I build to what the market wants. If it wants a rolls royce it can have one, but unfortunatley most can not afford a Rolls, they will have to do with a Ford.
I am actually a concept engineer, with real life experience.
How the hell would you know what I am offering.
Your guys could run circles around me, i would hope so, because you can not. "my limited machine for the poor old dairy farmers", so be it, we have 15000 over here. I look forword to recieving your product.
Whos ranting and raving, (a bit of banter maybe) we are giving oppotunities to prove your product, along with altenatives. or Are you that far up your own A*S*, that you do not believe there is any alternative to what you supply.
You said you have sold 300 units (i applaud you for this) but how many people are in the USA, how many more could you sell if the cost was lower, Savings are not soley made on COP, but on load profiles. Low priced units increase the potential target market.
Even if the lower priced product, is slightly down in performance and has less thrills on it, the net benefit to the enviroment has increased. What is better for the enviroment 300units that save 90% or 3000 units that save 80%?
A sensible question, i would like to ask, what is deemed as an exceptable payback period for this type of product in the USA (simple capital/annual savings) I am aware that other issues may come into play. This in it self may help explain your present market and such product application. In NZ (for businesses) if it is over 3 years then its a no-goer,(10%)
Under 18months it is a slam dunk! (90% success rate)
This is site for tech talk.
Engineering is easy, doing it for the right price is hard.
As far es experience with CO2, most of mine is gained in stack gas removal, purification and liquification. (co-gen plants), revert recovery, biogas recovery, distallation in fermentation. Plus specialist in "charged" dry ice -74C refrigeration for freeze driers. (you can use CO2 below its triple point for LT refrigeration)

coldwine
26-02-2010, 06:48 AM
MF, the badge was blocked out in those photos due to marketing issue, at the time of the photo, the name these were to be marketed under for the US was undecided, hence the blockout...nothing sinister here Sherlock Holmes...not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes as you are....;)
If you could read, you would see that it was said many times, that this is not the only product and is not a cure all like you claimed I said...go back and read the posts...first remove your head from where it is at.....
Again there is no need for comparison because your product is only a "dream' of yours..."Why bother" as you had said in the post that started all this crap...remember that one?
Last, as far as cost, we are not a philanthropic organization to save the world...rather we offer a quality product, long lasting, with proven results for X amount of money...if you don't like the price, then go buy something else. We started this post with a simple explanation of the term ECOCUTE and a line about availability of units now. A few with hiden agendas picked up on this and decided they were threatened by this technology, so let's make a bunch of stuff up to discredit what we do not know, or are afraid of....Embrace technology and do not run from it....The world would be a better place....

We are anxiously awaiting yours and desA's photos of your wonder machines....

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 07:06 AM
MF...another mature comment from you..really demonstrating your knowledge of world events, congratulations...seems you exist to write stupid comments on tech blogs...seen your many other rants and raves on other threads..too bad there is no moderator to get you back on track. maybe if the Kiwis would get into the real world and not rely on support from Australia and rest of world to get by, you would actually have something to say...Don't bash my Country if you can't take the heat....
Good day to all this nonsense....
I think you taking all this to seriously.
I exist to provide for family, help others, and to have as much fun as I can. (seem you misunderstand banter) What i will not take is Bull Shyte.
So the news we get in NZ about the Fiscal systems in the USA are wrong. Fanny May, Freddy Mac, Mr Maddock, No bail out then from the fed goverment!
my mistake I am sorry.
yes Australia is one of our biggest export markets, so they are supporting us. Who cares what we say "we are from NZ" yes we are also sheep ****gers, herd it all before. NZ is the country of innovation, not production, we do not have the population!
Whos bashing your country (other blog, started by Gary from Florida)
You are the one who is bashing your country, why are you not building the machines in the USA, if as you say they are your machines. Those with out sin cast the first stone.
As far as of subject, I clearly asked for performance of your machine a set of conditions, you replied with a totally non technical answer, Again what are we to think, as this is a technical forum. You described a set of well known principles, but as this is a tech forum, we would of expected a full tech answer. Especially as you are promoting the product.
You did clearly indicate in one of your earlier threads a temp of 194F, Is it not reasonable to ask details about performance at these temps, and is it not reasonable to expect a comprehensive answer.
What do you think an engineer would think about this reply, would he be able to apply this to an application (of one I do have) Does it not give the impression, that there is a quite a bit of sales BS going on.

desA
26-02-2010, 07:12 AM
You know, for a company that is totally confident in its next-generation products, coldwine has failed the test.

He can only bluster on, but simply does not have the technical knowledge to back up his CO2-blown claims. Not doing his sales too much good, I'll wager.

C'mon on coldwine - where are the CoolPack comparative snapshots? The world is waiting with frosted breath. :D

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 07:42 AM
MF, the badge was blocked out in those photos due to marketing issue, at the time of the photo, the name these were to be marketed under for the US was undecided, hence the blockout...nothing sinister here Sherlock Holmes...not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes as you are....;)
If you could read, you would see that it was said many times, that this is not the only product and is not a cure all like you claimed I said...go back and read the posts...first remove your head from where it is at.....
Again there is no need for comparison because your product is only a "dream' of yours..."Why bother" as you had said in the post that started all this crap...remember that one?
Last, as far as cost, we are not a philanthropic organization to save the world...rather we offer a quality product, long lasting, with proven results for X amount of money...if you don't like the price, then go buy something else. We started this post with a simple explanation of the term ECOCUTE and a line about availability of units now. A few with hiden agendas picked up on this and decided they were threatened by this technology, so let's make a bunch of stuff up to discredit what we do not know, or are afraid of....Embrace technology and do not run from it....The world would be a better place....

We are anxiously awaiting yours and desA's photos of your wonder machines....
"Why bother" "I did apologise for this comment"
No wool pulling here.
Yes you should make a profit.
Client has the chioce ( what is fact and what is fiction, my dear Watson) This is the hidden agenda.
What stuff have we made up? Nothing, we asked a question, with no technical reply. We have not disputed the technologies/product performance,(at rated conditions) quality,
We have questioned (or asked for) non published data, authenticity of your production. You have clarified!
Price and what I would call value for money.
We have given other possible alternatives (that may fit other applications)
Plus a bit of banter, we have also recieved a bit of banter, just part of the game. (then we are dead)
It is now beer O'clock, time to enjoy USAs favorite export "jack"
Have a good week end (to all), do not stress, no doubt will continue later.

coldwine
26-02-2010, 07:54 AM
on and on with no photos of your real "dreams", seems like someone else is the master of spin....
desA, our sales are just fine thanks to your ignorance....I can find nowhere any data on what you have been doing "in the lab"...let's put your money where your mouth is.....You have no idea who I am nor what my technical experience is...I did not insult you and your background until you started with cheap shots of your own...Back up your mouth! you see what we offer, the performance you have already found, so see if you can calculate it yourself....I ask you once again, what over blown claims do you refer to? state exactly where I overblew a claim? Also, none of you naysayers had a pompous remark about the link on CO2 cooling and heating in American Office bldgs you looked at....seems if no stupid comment, then you must agree with it's content....
as you know MF, this unit can easily achieve a 194 F hot water outlet temperature...but of course at a lower capacity, COP...What you see on the data sheet is real data, proven over and over...And please don't bash our compressor...you know it is made by one of the most experienced and respected industrial compressor manufacturers in the world for over 80 years now, and this was developed for this application, is bullet proof and with little current comparison made in one of the most advanced compressor facilities available.
Last, it is not anger or seriousness applied, rather PASSION for technology and how it is applied, why my responses are what they are. It was never said this was the wonder machine, or the only thing to buy, or the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather a good alternative for certain applications. Passion steps in when ridiculous remarks and unbacked claims are made with little regard to professionalism...
back in the chill mode.....

desA
26-02-2010, 07:58 AM
Would you please post up some CoolPack snapshots of your technical claims. Showing someone else's brochure, with their logo blocked out simply will not pass muster, I'm afraid.

It is free download software. http://www.ipu.dk/English/IPU-Manufacturing/Refrigeration-and-energy-technology/Downloads/CoolPack.aspx

Any techie worth his/her salt will be able to prove their point using this simple simulation environment. Give it a whirl - it even has CO2 modules.

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 07:59 AM
Pic as requested, made for the farm industry. No bell and whistles. priced RRP US$8000 (ish)
Heating cap at 15-85C single pass max 22.2kw
Cooling cap (trade secret) 16.4kw
Power draw 4.9kw
COP 7.9
3374

desA
26-02-2010, 08:06 AM
That's a nice machine, MK. Excellent.

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 08:15 AM
on and on with no photos of your real "dreams", seems like someone else is the master of spin....
desA, our sales are just fine thanks to your ignorance....I can find nowhere any data on what you have been doing "in the lab"...let's put your money where your mouth is.....You have no idea who I am nor what my technical experience is...I did not insult you and your background until you started with cheap shots of your own...Back up your mouth! you see what we offer, the performance you have already found, so see if you can calculate it yourself....I ask you once again, what over blown claims do you refer to? state exactly where I overblew a claim? Also, none of you naysayers had a pompous remark about the link on CO2 cooling and heating in American Office bldgs you looked at....seems if no stupid comment, then you must agree with it's content....
as you know MF, this unit can easily achieve a 194 F hot water outlet temperature...but of course at a lower capacity, COP...What you see on the data sheet is real data, proven over and over...And please don't bash our compressor...you know it is made by one of the most experienced and respected industrial compressor manufacturers in the world for over 80 years now, and this was developed for this application, is bullet proof and with little current comparison made in one of the most advanced compressor facilities available.
Last, it is not anger or seriousness applied, rather PASSION for technology and how it is applied, why my responses are what they are. It was never said this was the wonder machine, or the only thing to buy, or the greatest thing since sliced bread, rather a good alternative for certain applications. Passion steps in when ridiculous remarks and unbacked claims are made with little regard to professionalism...
back in the chill mode.....
Jack is flowing nicely chilled, so I did not bash your compressor, the compressor chosen in my base sample was a semi hermetic, you had assumed that i had choosen a a hermetic (this is what i meant)
It is good that you passion, so do we, I agreed with you on many aspects, I see so many times clients who have purchased equipment that has promised the earth, where sales have overtaken engineering reality. It is more to do with clients understand, they tend to take the high selling point (general rule) and many times and not able to understand the difference between engineering fact and sales hype.
I will try explain better without getting bitchy.
You stated that you can reach 194F (I agree this can happen)
It was stated that a COP of 8 can be reached.
You and I know that the 2 facts above can not occur at the same time.
But in the clients mind it may (this does very much depend upon the sales guy/girl and how much he wants the sale) we all need to make money.
This is where i felt there was some mis-leading information. Thus i felt it need to be clarified, whilst also finding out more performance information for an application which has arisen.
Photo sent.

coldwine
26-02-2010, 08:18 AM
MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown, :)
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...

desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 08:24 AM
Tried to download on site performance, sorry file to big for this site. (not a computer wiss)

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 08:36 AM
MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown, :)
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...

desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....
Thanks coldwine, yes is smaller, i do not see a major market at present for purpose built larger ones.
For this reason only did I have to choose a simulated machine.(not actually based around this technology)
Yes machine is designed and produced for its particular market. (not limited to dairy but this where the target market is)
The internal components are where possible NZ made, so high quality (???) Japanese electrical control gear, designed for very easy service, we also include full CIP, at these temps fouling is always a problem. Installation can be completed with out removing asingle cover. Simple fault diagnostics (for the farmer) many levels of protection, auto reset for non critical faults, no comms, not needed.

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 08:43 AM
Coldwine is it possible that you could give me the performance data for a CO2 Ecocute?
Hot water entering 15C heated to 85C
Cold water enterin 20C cooled to 15C
Flow rates as required
showing heat out put,
cooling output
and power draw.
Thank you

Gary
26-02-2010, 08:50 AM
MF...yes it is a nice package you have shown, :)
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...

desA...I would be highly suspicious of downloading anything from you..nice try...once you post some of your expertise in question with real performace data and available products from you, we can move forward. Until that time, we are all wasting time here....Last, what you have is OUR brochure and not someone elses...is this all you have to go back on?
Get over the blocked out name on the photo, simply a marketing issue and nothing else, Sherlock.....

The fact that you have a product on the market doesn't make it a good product... nor does it demonstrate any particular expertise on your part... so you can drop the superior attitude.

(and you have the audacity to call others pompous)

Gary
26-02-2010, 09:39 AM
CO2 is just another refrigerant, and not a very good one. If it weren't for all of the environmental nonsense, nobody would be seriously considering using it.

desA
26-02-2010, 10:25 AM
but hardly a comparison in capacity or components as we were discussing...


You simply cannot walk your talk, can you?

MF is being very gentle with you... :D

desA
26-02-2010, 10:33 AM
CO2 is just another refrigerant, and not a very good one. If it weren't for all of the environmental nonsense, nobody would be seriously considering using it.

It has a very serious problem when the Te,sat rises too high. Reason : this gets close to the critical temp for CO2. It plays havoc with line sizes & the pressure drops go through the roof - can be as high as 300%!

The bi-stability issue is a serious one & has to be carefully managed by the system controller. If not careful, the system can flip into a mode where little, if any, heat is pumped. The CO2 industry generally chooses to overlook, or to not discuss this fact.

There are 'issues' to be addressed here. CO2 is not a 'wonder technology'. I happen to like the fact that we can make hot water using CO2. But, of late, the aggressive marketing tactics displayed by the CO2 devotees have become a little unbearable. This is across the board - not only the current proponent under inquisition.

coldwine
26-02-2010, 07:54 PM
MF, thank you for your explanation and I agree your unit shown is a nice packaged unit for your intended market..:) ....nice job.
desA....it is you that cannot back anything up you say...it seems you are like a little bird on a few peoples shoulders, and when they speak up, you chime in with them....never on your own with your OWN knowledge.....you state a few issues that you maybe read in one of your knowledge magazines, known about CO2 in a closed cycle that were addressed years ago in the development of this product. Bi stability and 3 point is a non issue here, and we do not overlook anything. One is not a manufacturer for over 80 years with worldwide installations, if they overlook critical or even not so critical issues. Our business is on repeat clients.
Show me your pictures, I'll show you mine...:D
And then there's Gary....one who claims that I relentlessy market my product here, from the same guy that has on EVERY post comment he makes a little ad for some product he is trying to sell...we don't have the choice of not seeing your ad everytime you write...seems like relentless marketing to me....upon Sherlocks further review of the product, it seems it is based on 12 to 15 year old technology...maybe you are missing the chapter on CO2 refrigeration?...time to update the material.....stop looking for the hanging "chad".....lol...The environmental issues are real, they might not be as big as some suggest...but common sense tells us we cannot pollute, use massive amounts of energy with little disregard for the earths cycle. I am not a "greenie", but these are real issues.

Peter_1
26-02-2010, 08:31 PM
Coldwine, what's in fact your intention? If you come here to poke around a bit, then you better leave your sarcastic undertone in your messages.

mad fridgie
26-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Coldwine, can not agree more "massive amount of energy", regardless if you beleive in global warming or not, we are using the earths resouses quickly.
Changes are being made, at what rate, I see as being dependent on education (turning appliances off at the wall, no standby with the remote etc) and capital cost.
There are always those who are fortunate that they can purchase the best technologies (in all fields).
If I look at your ecocute product, (hope you are not offeneded) it is a top end product, maybe overtime with practical experience, some of the techniquies presently used, maybe eliminated, or changed to reduce the capital cost, open the market to a greater client base. As production increases, costs should reduce.
we also have many agruments around, the laws of diminshing returns.
On an engineering point related to refrigeration, the higher the COP, the less stress is applied to the refrigeration machinery, hence increased longevity.
We are likely to disagree on refrigerant choice. But life would be a bit boring if we did all think the same.

coldwine
26-02-2010, 09:59 PM
Peter....I have no intention here other than to reply to a comment regarding the name ECO Cute and that a unit is available...pure and simple...I apologize for any comments made that offended anyone....it seemed to spark a big debate...which is good in this industry in our opinion, unfortunately some rude and disrespectful comments were made, so we fired back.
I have been a member under a different user for almost 9 years now, so I am not poking around.
we will now stop on our side and let the product stand on it's own. Again it is only for certain engineered applications, is not at all a wonder machine, nor is CO2. It must be applied correctly.
Sorry again if anyone was offended. Best to all.

Gary
26-02-2010, 10:13 PM
Will the Earth get warmer? Maybe, maybe not. But that isn't the point.

The big question is, will impoverishing the masses (not to mention future generations) and allowing the environmental nutcases to dictate our every waking moment, stop Mother Nature from doing whatever she wants to do? Seems highly doubtful.

It's all a big money grab. They point at the environment with one hand and pick your pocket with the other hand. The environment is the distraction. It's all about picking your pocket.

I'm all for improving technology, saving energy and saving money, but talk of saving the planet just twists my tail. :mad:

Anything CO2 can do, other refrigerants can do better, safer and a whole lot cheaper. Prove me wrong.

desA
27-02-2010, 01:15 AM
desA....it is you that cannot back anything up you say...it seems you are like a little bird on a few peoples shoulders, and when they speak up, you chime in with them....never on your own with your OWN knowledge.....you state a few issues that you maybe read in one of your knowledge magazines,

I don't normally bother to rise to the personal attacks, but, it seems like this is now necessary. You know, here's a thought for you to think about in more detail. If a salesperson has to resort to attacking the customer, or someone who challenges their technical claims, then they are either imposters, or their claims have no substance.

Personally, I think that you are trying to use RE to stir up controversy over CO2 in an effort to pursue your own marketing agenda. Frankly, you have done nothing other than to prove yourself to be a snake-oil salesman & charlatan. If you were at all confident about 'your' product, or work, you would not attack as you do. You have, unfortunately, come across as an immature, petulant blowhard, activist, bleeding-heart type. You, in all likelihood, seem to have no product of your own. You have plagiarised the work of others, in a very amateurish manner, passing them off as your own product. This is IP theft.

For the record, my product brand name is registered under the natural initiative drive. I happen to subscribe to the idea of CO2 & alternative refrigerants, each with their own place, amongst the other refrigerants. I do not, however, subscribe to claims about CO2 that are simply marketing hype from a person who really has no idea on the subject matter at hand.

You & your tirades are in danger of bringing R744 into disrepute. You should think more deeply on this.


known about CO2 in a closed cycle that were addressed years ago in the development of this product. Bi stability and 3 point is a non issue here, and we do not overlook anything.

All well & good. Then, please explain for the RE readership what the specific remedies are/were for the bi-stability, or multi-stability phenomenon. This would be helpful.


One is not a manufacturer for over 80 years with worldwide installations, if they overlook critical or even not so critical issues. Our business is on repeat clients.

Another unsubstantiated claim. You seem to be dreaming.



Show me your pictures, I'll show you mine...:D


You have not yet shown a single set of calulations to back up your claims. I expect that you will continue to bluster on, but never produce anything of substance, simply because you don't have the faintest clue.

desA
27-02-2010, 06:26 AM
@coldwine:
Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, let's change tack a little - an offer of assistance.

If you would like to post hard test results - your design targets for your systems - I'm sure that MF & I could assist to turn these into something presentable.

This could be informative to the RE readership & be of interest to many of us. The offer is presented in good faith - this is a technical discussion forum, after all.

Magoo
28-02-2010, 02:17 AM
Des A
I am watching with interest as well, me and Toosh are waiting, for actual figures.
magoo

mad fridgie
28-02-2010, 04:10 AM
3378

3379

Here are some CO2 calcs showing reasonable results
As with all refrigeration heat exchanger selection is Key.
The 2 show what i think is practically great (but un likely)
The second show what i would expext practically from evaps and gas coolers (not as good a heat exchange as phase change).

mad fridgie
28-02-2010, 04:22 AM
I think you will find, that at these exstremes, R134a and CO2 performance is very similar, both in theory and practice.
I can see improvements on both methods. But cost aspects come into play. "law of diminishing returns"
I would say the main point of difference is capital cost and service Knowledge (R134a well known by many, CO2 at this stage limited to the average tech.)
Co2 is natural, and thus could been seen as benefit of CO2.
I stiil believe that the yearly load profile is of the greastest importance.
There are a very few applications where hot water use and cooling are balanced. most need one and not the other, or use is at different times. (in the small range (upto 250kw) For this reason capital cost plays a major," return on investment" or "payback"

Toosh
28-02-2010, 05:07 AM
Peter....I have no intention here other than to reply to a comment regarding the name ECO Cute and that a unit is available...pure and simple...I apologize for any comments made that offended anyone....it seemed to spark a big debate...which is good in this industry in our opinion, unfortunately some rude and disrespectful comments were made, so we fired back.
I have been a member under a different user for almost 9 years now, so I am not poking around.
we will now stop on our side and let the product stand on it's own. Again it is only for certain engineered applications, is not at all a wonder machine, nor is CO2. It must be applied correctly.
Sorry again if anyone was offended. Best to all.

desa , i think according to this post Coldwine has retreated into his shell

desA
28-02-2010, 05:33 AM
3378

3379

Here are some CO2 calcs showing reasonable results
As with all refrigeration heat exchanger selection is Key.
The 2 show what i think is practically great (but un likely)
The second show what i would expext practically from evaps and gas coolers (not as good a heat exchange as phase change).

Thanks MF. A very interesting comparison, indeed. The COP's vary enormously with what is an apparently minor spec change.

Looks to be different compressor requirements for each option, no?

desA
28-02-2010, 05:37 AM
I think you will find, that at these exstremes, R134a and CO2 performance is very similar, both in theory and practice.
I can see improvements on both methods. But cost aspects come into play. "law of diminishing returns"
I would say the main point of difference is capital cost and service Knowledge (R134a well known by many, CO2 at this stage limited to the average tech.)
Co2 is natural, and thus could been seen as benefit of CO2.
I stiil believe that the yearly load profile is of the greastest importance.
There are a very few applications where hot water use and cooling are balanced. most need one and not the other, or use is at different times. (in the small range (upto 250kw) For this reason capital cost plays a major," return on investment" or "payback"

MF, could you look at a direct spec comparison for HFC's & possibly other 'natural' refrigerants? Would you also like to venture into Boost territory (without giving away your secrets, though)?

These comparisons could be very useful.

I'd also like to see the effect in CoolPack with elevated Te,sat - for heat-pump applications, on line size selection. I have seen NH3 muted as a potentially useful alternative refrigerant again - in a Rankine-cycle heat-pump system. Concern here with discharge temps & materials of construction - thermodynamically worked a treat.

desA
28-02-2010, 05:44 AM
desa , i think according to this post Coldwine has retreated into his shell

That would indeed be a great pity. Would be nice for him to pad up & bat an innings, or two.

mad fridgie
28-02-2010, 05:58 AM
20/20 NZ verses Aus

Have alook later

Toosh
28-02-2010, 06:29 AM
MF, could you look at a direct spec comparison for HFC's & possibly other 'natural' refrigerants? Would you also like to venture into Boost territory (without giving away your secrets, though)?

These comparisons could be very useful.


I'd also like to see the effect in CoolPack with elevated Te,sat - for heat-pump applications, on line size selection. I have seen NH3 muted as a potentially useful alternative refrigerant again - in a Rankine-cycle heat-pump system. Concern here with discharge temps & materials of construction - thermodynamically worked a treat.

Hi desa Here is one


http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive%5Cclima2000%5C1997%5CP360.pdf

Toosh

desA
28-02-2010, 07:06 AM
Hi desa Here is one

http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive%5Cclima2000%5C1997%5CP360.pdf

Toosh

Wow, Toosh - another incredible find. Don't know how you do it... :eek:

Toosh
28-02-2010, 07:29 AM
Wow, Toosh - another incredible find. Don't know how you do it... :eek:


:p:p

Note the mathematical model COP against actual
http://www.waset.org/journals/waset/v43/v43-48.pdf

Gary
28-02-2010, 07:40 AM
Note the tone of the introduction. How credible can a "scientific" study be when it is, by its own admission, politically motivated?

Toosh
28-02-2010, 08:06 AM
Note the tone of the introduction. How credible can a "scientific" study be when it is, by its own admission, politically motivated?


Hi Gary I totally agree they can`t run countries so they stick they`re beak in when they think its popular :eek::eek:

mad fridgie
28-02-2010, 10:47 AM
I do not know if it is worth doing other simulations, because all I would be doing estimating what I think may happen (even if the program is 100% correct, it is only as good as the inputed data.)
I was hoping coldwine may have come back with real data.
When it comes to whole systems there are so many variables
Compressor, compression efficiency, moter efficiency. should we talk about Kw or Kva.
I see in those articles tha Toosh provided, that the CO2 was oil free, is this actually the case, if not then some form of film is going to form, reducing heat transfer, then what about water fouling, this is going to happen at the high temps indicated.

desA
28-02-2010, 10:56 AM
I do not know if it is worth doing other simulations, because all I would be doing estimating what I think may happen (even if the program is 100% correct, it is only as good as the inputed data.)
I was hoping coldwine may have come back with real data.
When it comes to whole systems there are so many variables
Compressor, compression efficiency, moter efficiency. should we talk about Kw or Kva.
I see in those articles tha Toosh provided, that the CO2 was oil free, is this actually the case, if not then some form of film is going to form, reducing heat transfer, then what about water fouling, this is going to happen at the high temps indicated.

Very true. Perhaps we'll have to let things wait until 'coldwine' gets over his hangover?

desA
28-02-2010, 11:08 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/alkuma.png

This one?

mad fridgie
28-02-2010, 11:09 AM
slightly of issue but relevent.
COP of 8
COP of 9
Saving differnce is 1.4%
Always worth thinking about.

desA
28-02-2010, 11:28 AM
^ Very true... 1.389%

Food for thought.

Magoo
01-03-2010, 03:21 AM
Round two has started the bell has rung, check your seconds and come out fighting. No kicking or low blows please just sound intelligent commentaries please.
Toosh and I are waiting with baited breath.
magoo

desA
01-03-2010, 06:40 AM
Toosh and I are waiting with bad breath.
magoo

Say again... :eek:

Toosh
01-03-2010, 07:23 AM
Hi desa this is interesting, about wear and tear under high pressures

http://www.stle.org/assets/document/Hodson_award_winner.pdf

desA
01-03-2010, 07:49 AM
Hi desa this is interesting, about wear and tear under high pressures

http://www.stle.org/assets/document/Hodson_award_winner.pdf

Interesting article. I read into it that they are still testing at an operating pressure some 50% of the CO2 maximum operating pressure. We will probably have to see what practical information returns from the field.

Somehow, this info seems to have been sparse - perhaps because most of the machines have been operatonal in Japan, where information flow often seems to be slow in coming, if at all.

Toosh
01-03-2010, 08:21 AM
Have you seen this

http://jp.sanyo.com/comp-unit/english/co2/about.html

desA
01-03-2010, 09:11 AM
Very nice... :D

chillman
05-10-2010, 04:20 PM
wow after all that reading and excitement I'm pretty relieved this thread is over
or is it ;)

Thermo23
19-10-2010, 04:33 PM
I had hoped to flush out some Japanese engineers who watch this site with the post a few weeks back about EcoCute heat pumps.
It would seem they are too shy to make any comment.


Here you go my friend!

IceMan_4000
17-05-2011, 05:06 PM
HW HW HS HS HW HS HC CC PWR COPh COPt
OUT IN IN OUT
℃ ℃ ℃ ℃ L/min L/min kW kW kW - -
90 15.0 20.0 15.0 17.5 195.0 91.4 68.0 26.3 3.47 6.06

90 20.0 20.0 15.0 17.9 183.0 87.3 63.9 26.3 3.32 5.74

90 25.0 20.0 15.0 18.3 170.3 83.0 59.4 26.4 3.15 5.40

90 30.0 20.0 15.0 18.7 156.8 78.4 54.7 26.4 2.97 5.04

90 35.0 20.0 16.5 19.4 206.4 74.3 50.4 26.6 2.80 4.69

90 45.0 20.0 16.5 20.3 161.8 63.7 39.5 26.7 2.38 3.86

90 50.0 20.0 17.0 20.8 161.6 58.2 33.8 26.8 2.17 3.43

90 55.0 20.0 17.0 21.4 132.2 52.2 27.7 26.9 1.94 2.96

90 60.0 20.0 18.0 22.0 153.7 46.1 21.4 27.1 1.70 2.49

90 65.0 20.0 19.0 22.7 212.3 39.6 14.8 27.2 1.46 2.00


There seems to be a fair bit of hype and fight over this product in this forum. here is the run you asked for plus several others so you can draw your own conclusions

I am sorry I have been away from refrigeration engineer. I will answer what ever I think I can from what I have studied so far.

I posted way back in 2008 about Eco-cutes name being very Japanese. at the time I did not realize how true this was. I have since been applying EC technology in engineering applications in the HVAC and industrial food industry.

"Kyūtō-ki" is were the Cute comes from. "Kyuto" which stands for Hot water supply and "Ki" which is machine or equipment. Eco for economic or ecology Eco-Cute

Eco-cute = Hot Water Supply Equipment, and trust me direct Japanese to English translations do not happen to make sense that often. but this one is the nail in the head

Eco-cute or CO2 Trans-critical are not here to alter or take over the Heat pump market. Eco-cute is a great tool and/or weapon in an engineers arsenal, for HVAC design. Not a replacement.

alot of the times if Eco-cute is compared in heating applications.
Usually based on North American standard low delta - T 10-15 F 200-400 GPM to a market ready chemical/man heat pumps or boiler.

Eco-cute will have a similar COPh with high water temperatures and lower flow. Not a great heating appliance for N/A.
If one can use a modulating flow design, with a much larger delta T (45F is minimum required) Eco-cute can do a good job.
but the design must be taken into consideration early so that it reflects the run characteristics of trans-critical heat pump instead of a standard heat pump appliance.

Were Eco-cute performs is on projects were domestic hot water is involved.

just like the EC name implies! Hot water supply equipment!
High DHW demand suits Eco-cute's abilities well, then do supplementary space heating achieved through a plate exchanger.
Pricing is another issue which is old as time but applied right Eco-cute can make project dollars and sense.

IceMan_4000
17-05-2011, 05:36 PM
Somehow, this info seems to have been sparse - perhaps because most of the machines have been operatonal in Japan, where information flow often seems to be slow in coming, if at all.

OMG I feel this pain of information flow every day.. lol

IceMan_4000
18-05-2011, 04:40 PM
To be honest, CO2 is really only where it is due to an excessive subsidy from the Japanese government.

Let's give this technology some time to settle down, before making extraordinary claims. I suspect that in hindsight, that an alternative like HFO will come along for the commercial sector, & outpace CO2. Simplicity & price will be the keys.

I frankly think that if you try to justify your prices on the latest environmental fad, that your business model may very well suffer.

You are having a go at MF & I, for our comments. For the record, we are both designers of heat-pumps systems, amongst other things. So, practically, we, as well as many others on RE, are fully aware of CO2 - it is nothing new.

I wish you all the very best of success with your products. Do try to chill a little. Sorry if you were offended.

This guy if he was still alive might be mad... Yes the Japanese government had something to do with it but he did all the research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Lorentzen_(scientist)

desA
20-05-2011, 07:40 AM
Thanks Iceman_4000 for some interesting information. :)

IceMan_4000
20-05-2011, 10:36 PM
Hi desa this is interesting, about wear and tear under high pressures

http://www.stle.org/assets/document/Hodson_award_winner.pdf


Great read Toosh

Thanks for posting that. interesting findings on actual wear.