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Thermatech
30-11-2007, 10:22 PM
For the last 7 years refrigerant C02 has been used for domestic air to water heat pumps for domestic hot water in Japan.
Major manufacturers like Hitachi, Daikin, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Sanyo have been selling them by the 100,000 for years in Japan.
The Govenment in Japan provide yen incentive for purchase of this type of water heater.

As this is old technology in Japan we can expect this type of equipment to be available soon in Europe

Are there any service engineers in Japan who can provide some hands on technical experiance for us European engineers who have no Co2 heat pump experiance.:rolleyes:

davej
02-12-2007, 03:00 PM
yes please any info on these would be interesting to me to

kvyhs
05-12-2007, 03:42 PM
For a small insite (Its in Japaneese!) have a look at this youtube.com/watch?v=ZIYwoHtrXN0 just put the 3 'w'' at the front! I'm stilll too new to post URL's!
This is for the latest Daikin version sold in Japan. The CO2 (R744) piping is all inside the outdoor unit meaning a plumber can install it as they do not need to touch the fridge side.

davej
05-12-2007, 05:43 PM
thanks for that , very interesting. never been on u tube before and dint realise how much stuff there was on there
cheers

techguy
05-12-2007, 07:11 PM
Hi Guys,

Sanyo have been selling these in Europe for 2 years but very little interest so far. If you want I can supply tech data and manuals for these Its very basic info but you may find it interesting.

We will be improving our range early next year and will have 6 model sizes with kits to connect to any water tank so this should improve the systems appeal in the market place.

Gat back to me if I can help.
T

davej
06-12-2007, 05:44 PM
Hi techguy, i would like to see thisminfo , how do you want to send it?

Karl Hofmann
06-12-2007, 08:05 PM
Techguy, the other part of my business is central heating and hot water, so naturally I'd be interested too.. Trianco do something similar but it seems a bit old hat running on R407a. It would be nice to be able to offer a decent quality alternative to solar panels

email_dd
06-12-2007, 08:24 PM
Hi,

Some units are in testing period in France until 1 year...
No sale for instead.

dongdong
06-01-2008, 11:35 AM
Hi Techguy!I'm a student.Now I'm studying in CO2 heat pump water heater .Can you give me relevant info?If you agree,please give me e-mail.My e-mail is "dongdong4848488 at 163 dot com".Thank you!

kvyhs
07-01-2008, 12:55 AM
Techguy, the other part of my business is central heating and hot water, so naturally I'd be interested too.. Trianco do something similar but it seems a bit old hat running on R407a. It would be nice to be able to offer a decent quality alternative to solar panels
Karl have you seen the Daikin Altherma system? Put the 3 w's infront of this link daikin.co.uk/airconditioning-products/altherma/default.jsp

techguy
14-01-2008, 06:06 PM
Hi Guys,#
Sorry I have been so busy over Christmas etc hav not been on site. If any of you still want the CO2 info let me know I will have to zip it and mail it to you so please supply a mail addy also (via the PM system).

Regards

T

davej
15-01-2008, 09:38 AM
HI Hope it was as good as you were busy, im still up for that info please .

Davejackson70@hotmail.com
thanks

techguy
16-01-2008, 02:41 AM
Hi Guys,

I'll be in the office friday and will send some info on then

Thanx

T

jamieasa
22-04-2009, 04:20 PM
techguy -

please can you send me as much info as you have e11jtj@hotmail.com.

Many Thanks James

128cyclist
27-01-2010, 03:22 AM
Techguy,
I am located in the US but am intereted in buying a sanyo ecocute while I am in Ireland. I am looking to then import in to the US for my home possibly two for a friend. We have tried to contact Sanyo but have had no luck through US vendors.

coldwine
23-02-2010, 09:37 PM
We now have available 80kW water source CO2 hot water heat pumps for US market and using them for wineries and other HVAC applications. Best if used as a hot water heater (up to 194F) and chiller at the same time for maximum COP. Also can be used in a heat recovery mode for maximum hot water output using a condenser water circuit.
Units are 460/3/60.

mad fridgie
23-02-2010, 10:07 PM
We now have available 80kW water source CO2 hot water heat pumps for US market and using them for wineries and other HVAC applications. Best if used as a hot water heater (up to 194F) and chiller at the same time for maximum COP. Also can be used in a heat recovery mode for maximum hot water output using a condenser water circuit.
Units are 460/3/60.
Why would bother, I already build "Boost" units,
standard of the shelf 22Kw heating water to 85C, with eCOP of over 9, for a trade price of US$6500, unfortunately can not sell in US, paperwork to HARD
Would guess a 80kw machine would be around, US$20000, how does that stack up against the your product. Very suitable for any body who uses refrigeration and heaps of hot water.
COP rises if water is needed below 85C

coldwine
24-02-2010, 03:14 AM
MF, why bother? The unit you describe sounds built in a garage or something, so really no comparison. We too can build systems one by one, and give them crazy COP's that are not proven. But when you mfg. something like this with these high pressures etc... a whole liability issue comes up in US. That is just the way it is here. Our unit is UL labeled, certified performance, insured for US installs, solid built with the worlds largest CO2 semi hermetic compressor commercially available, communications package with safeties etc... It is VERY expensive to UL these units in US as a start of production. But everyone else here was just talking about these, and doing nothing about the opportunity to use these great units here. There is a reason why the sales figures for these have exploded in Japan, rest of Asia, Europe, now Australia and soon US. When properly applied, it is hard to beat performance of CO2 water source heat pump. Yes, right now they are 4 times the cost of a nice boiler system, but when you weigh the benefits, one should not always look at the first initial cost anymore. That is why we are in this mess to begin with!!!

Gary
24-02-2010, 04:36 AM
MF, why bother? The unit you describe sounds built in a garage or something, so really no comparison. We too can build systems one by one, and give them crazy COP's that are not proven. But when you mfg. something like this with these high pressures etc... a whole liability issue comes up in US. That is just the way it is here. Our unit is UL labeled, certified performance, insured for US installs, solid built with the worlds largest CO2 semi hermetic compressor commercially available, communications package with safeties etc... It is VERY expensive to UL these units in US as a start of production. But everyone else here was just talking about these, and doing nothing about the opportunity to use these great units here. There is a reason why the sales figures for these have exploded in Japan, rest of Asia, Europe, now Australia and soon US. When properly applied, it is hard to beat performance of CO2 water source heat pump. Yes, right now they are 4 times the cost of a nice boiler system, but when you weigh the benefits, one should not always look at the first initial cost anymore. That is why we are in this mess to begin with!!!

What kind of idiot doesn't look at first initial cost?

Oh wait... I see you are from California... the land of fruits and nuts... that explains everything... lol

desA
24-02-2010, 04:43 AM
MF, why bother? The unit you describe sounds built in a garage or something, so really no comparison. We too can build systems one by one, and give them crazy COP's that are not proven. But when you mfg. something like this with these high pressures etc... a whole liability issue comes up in US. That is just the way it is here. Our unit is UL labeled, certified performance, insured for US installs, solid built with the worlds largest CO2 semi hermetic compressor commercially available, communications package with safeties etc... It is VERY expensive to UL these units in US as a start of production. But everyone else here was just talking about these, and doing nothing about the opportunity to use these great units here. There is a reason why the sales figures for these have exploded in Japan, rest of Asia, Europe, now Australia and soon US. When properly applied, it is hard to beat performance of CO2 water source heat pump. Yes, right now they are 4 times the cost of a nice boiler system, but when you weigh the benefits, one should not always look at the first initial cost anymore. That is why we are in this mess to begin with!!!

With all due respect, coldwine - you owe MF a huge apology. You obviously do not know the man, or his craftsmanship.

Your arrogance & ignorance has just placed you in the 'also-ran' category. Sorry about that.

For the record, I happen to subscribe to CO2 technology, where appropriate. Your unit pricing seems to be a trendy number, which very few, if any realy takers will subsidise.

Also, for the record, CO2 heat-pump systems will have difficulties in a number of specific technical regions:
1. Very high pressures - a maintenance nightmare;
2. At high T,ambient - the CO2 system Tc,suc will approach critical temp/pressure - this will prove interesting;
3. CO2 technology suffers from bi-stability - in fact, multi-stability. If the control-system begins to run off, then watch & see.

Have fun - don't forget the apology to MF, now.

samabraham
24-02-2010, 05:03 AM
sir ,iwant to know more about this one so please email to myemail id sam_19971@yahoo.ca

mad fridgie
24-02-2010, 05:17 AM
What kind of idiot doesn't look at first initial cost?

Oh wait... I see you are from California... the land of fruits and nuts... that explains everything... lol
On a slightly less serious note,
California "Hot BABES as well???, please do not shatter my dreams:D

Gary
24-02-2010, 05:33 AM
On a slightly less serious note,
California "Hot BABES as well???, please do not shatter my dreams:D

Sorry... the hot babes all moved to Florida :D

mad fridgie
24-02-2010, 05:37 AM
Sorry... the hot babes all moved to Florida :D
Even further to travel $$$$$, you will have to put me up for a couple nights, save some of $$$$$;)

Gary
24-02-2010, 05:45 AM
Even further to travel $$$$$, you will have to put me up for a couple nights, save some of $$$$$;)

Sure... come on over. :)

desA
24-02-2010, 05:58 AM
Hot pumps, or heat-pumps? Confused... :eek:

coldwine
24-02-2010, 06:15 PM
Great forum, let's bash information and then keep the post rolling with nothing to do with the subject.
Thanks to the guy in Florida....at least we know how to count here in California (i.e. ballot cards)
If the sun has not got to you too much down there, you need to look at initial cost against operating cost etc...that's what was implied. Not simply looking at how much one piece of equipment costs, but rather the whole system with everything included. We must think systemically with mechanical systems and not as individual pieces and parts.
Our post was not meant to discredit anyone or product, there was a post at the top of someone wanting information. So we gave it, and then got a bunch of nonsense with it. Really too bad that people still think this way, which is a big reason why the environment is what it is. Thanks for the also ran category, really nice and professional. Seems only you two guys run this post with your agenda.
Also hard to have high ambient issues with a water source unit as you mentioned. Our post says water source, so well aware of the high ambient and other issues you describe from reading a magazine, but we have 20 years factory experience with CO2 and how it behaves, so time to come out of the dark ages.
CO2 is not a wonder refrigerant, but works well with certain applications if properly applied. Service issues are really no big deal, other than higher pressure. It is still an A1 refrigerant in US.

I will apologize to MF and anyone else who feels hurt, that was not the intention. Only sharing information.
It's time to put all of our best available technologies out to the masses and not keep trying this or that, or saying I can build this better or whatever. Put your product on the market like we have done and stop talking about it. Let's take to action, as the HVACR sector is a HUGE consumer of energy and we all can make a big difference as a team using many technolgies. Best to all!

desA
24-02-2010, 06:31 PM
Also hard to have high ambient issues with a water source unit as you mentioned. Our post says water source, so well aware of the high ambient and other issues you describe from reading a magazine,

Well, then, I suggest that you go back & read the original thread OP.

Air-to-water CO2 heat-pumps. This is what the Ecocute are traditionally known for, are they not.

:D :D :D

coldwine
24-02-2010, 07:14 PM
We just saw ECO CUTE heat pump water heaters and not necessarily air to water in the thread title.
Yes, traditionally they are known for air to water, but the greatest potential is not that unit in larger sizes anymore, rather the water source unit. The subsidies from Japanese Government were intended to address the very large domestic hot water heating energy demand, so hence the air to water to begin with. As time has shown in research, the "other" markets will benefit more from water source CO2 units and not the air to water in larger sizes. The water source are also less in cost with a higher COP than air to water. We will and are seeing some CO2 residential air to water and water source for domestic hot water in US, but in our opinion, nothing like Japan or Europe. As everyone knows, subsidies are drying up, even in Japan, so this equipment has to stand on it's own now, and the water source CO2 heat pump can make a good impact on energy savings here in US when used as a heater/chiller or other hybrid applications. It is not at all a "cure all" . Nor are the sales of units purely driven by "green" marketing. They can really make sense for the right application and have good paybacks in certain areas. California, Hawaii, Caribbean area and South Pacific areas happen to be attractive due to electrical costs and other issues.

desA
24-02-2010, 07:27 PM
As time has shown in research, the "other" markets will benefit more from water source CO2 units and not the air to water in larger sizes. The water source are also less in cost with a higher COP than air to water. We will and are seeing some CO2 residential air to water and water source for domestic hot water in US, but in our opinion, nothing like Japan or Europe.

I'd be interested in substantiation of this claim.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide a comparative example - this would be most informative.

coldwine
24-02-2010, 10:40 PM
The air to water CO2 heat pump offered has an approx. COP of 3.6 to 4.1 depending on ambient conditions. The water source unit offered has an approx. COP of 4.2 to 6.5, due to combining the heating and cooling cycles performance. The chilled water / glycol temperature range dictates the COP due to gas cooler optimization. The combined cycle is the key, when the water source CO2 unit operates in a single cycle mode using a dump heat exchanger or something, it really makes no economic sense as low COP compared to other equipment. The cost factor is mainly in the air cooled condenser for the air to water unit. This coil is very expensive due to pressure rating, copper prices etc...so therefore the water source is less cost than the air to water and the COP in a combined cycle is higher for our applications.

Gr_Tech
30-04-2010, 06:22 PM
Hi there
here is one running
elisanet.fi/sanyoco2log/

desA
01-05-2010, 05:25 AM
Interesting COP. Seem very different to coldwine's predictions.

Nice link btw. Thanks very much. :)

JanyHudy
10-05-2010, 10:58 AM
Hi Guys,#
Sorry I have been so busy over Christmas etc hav not been on site. If any of you still want the CO2 info let me know I will have to zip it and mail it to you so please supply a mail addy also (via the PM system).

Regards

T


Hi techGuy

Could you send me these CO2 info. My email: JanyHudy[at]hotmail.sk

Thank you in advance

Regards

JH

engineer lowe
15-05-2010, 12:13 AM
just came across the Sanyo 9kw co2 air to water heat pump does anyone have info on this or any type of c02 air to water heat pump. would be great thanks.

engineer lowe
15-05-2010, 12:15 AM
sorry folks the email is devjnr@commercialireland.com any if any info would be great.:cool:

Focus
06-06-2010, 12:20 AM
Hi Guys,#
... If any of you still want the CO2 info let me know ...
T

Can you please send it to me at larryedwards@gci.net?

desA
06-06-2010, 08:06 AM
http://www.r744.com

The R744 website should have a lot of useful information for you.

agxus
21-09-2010, 01:10 AM
Hi,
I am looking for a supplier of CO2 heat pumps, my company is located in Romania, specialized only in heat pumps, and till now, we do not have these on the market. The Japanese are not interested.
Kindly asking you to advise.
A 22kW heat pump as you said in your answer, will do fine for me.
My adress is agxus@yahoo.com.
Thanks and best regards,
George