R134A Ban in Switzerland

[gosully]

Can anyone clear up an issue that seems to have everyone perplexed.

I have been informed that Switzerland is to ban R134a as of Jan 2008 (and some has already been banned)

I am also told that this only applies to applications using over 3KG - so therefore it would appear that domestic refrigerators would be exempt from this.

Can anyone confirm this?

[Bones74]

That makes no sense. 134a was supposed to be approved by the Montreal agreement.

[sundar369]

Then wat will be alternate for R134A.If its banned

[WINJA]

Then wat will be alternate for R134A.If its banned
Maybe we will go back to using a wet sack draped over our food:D

I think some greenies are opposed to the greenhouse effect of r134a

[anuraruna@gmail]

A World without refrigerant!

[paul_h]

That makes no sense. 134a was supposed to be approved by the Montreal agreement.
The main problem is it's use in cars, they frequently leak, the global warming potentional on r134a, and the fact that since 2001, the amount of r134a in the atmoshpere has doubled.
Mainly due to dodgy motor mechanics and auto electricians everywhere, and the DIY guys in the US.
I think the banning of it was supposed to have been 2011.

[Tony]

Then wat will be alternate for R134A.If its banned

R600a has already been used to replace R134a in a lot of instances.

:) As far as cars are concerned Australia has been using hydrocarbons in mobile air conditioning systems for over 10 years without any problems.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V4R-4BX79WY-6&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb293038d85ff0873d9585e84a50f848

[Tapas K Mitra]

It was perfectly right to ban R134A. In fact R404a should also be banned. If we don't try to save our planet even now, human race will history in another 100 years. Then we will not be there to blame the Greenies. Do you traces of vegetation is found in Antarctica. What are we heading at?

[Gary]

The weather changes. It always has, since the dawn of time... long before mankind walked the Earth. If the change is gradual, it is not catastrophic. We adapt.

[Gary]

If we don't try to save our planet even now, human race will history in another 100 years.

Fair enough. I'm calling your bluff. Let's see your evidence.

You will need to prove that:

A. Every last human being will cease to exist.

B. This will happen within 100 years.

C. Mankind can somehow keep this from happening.

[Brian_UK]

HI Gary, funnily enough I was just reading an old post of 2004 (I think) which delevoped into this ozone thingy as well.

Following your comments about the greenies etc I have to ask - how are the tobacco-nazis doing nowadays? any easier ?

[techguy]

Yea i'v looked into Global warming and theres just as much scientific proof that its not happening as ther is that it is.

Greenland ice melting
yes but may take over 1000years to go at the current rate.

Antartica ice melting
read recently that its actually increasing by 26giga tons a year whatever they are and over 90% of all ice on the planet in antartica

Man cant accuratley predict the weather a week in advance how the **** is he gonna predict accurate climate change over an extend period.

I'm not sayin there isnt global warming Im just not convinced yet.

Many many other reasons for my beliefs but dont wanna bore u guys

Any way lot of mountains in switzerland cold up there they can all move house up to the top of a mountain and dig a hole in a galcier for there food. hehehe
They dont need fridges

T

[Bones74]

The main problem is it's use in cars, they frequently leak, the global warming potentional on r134a, and the fact that since 2001, the amount of r134a in the atmoshpere has doubled.
Mainly due to dodgy motor mechanics and auto electricians everywhere, and the DIY guys in the US.
I think the banning of it was supposed to have been 2011.
So, what are you saying??? :D

[PaulZ]

Hi Tony
I wouldn't say there has been no problems.
Check this site
http://www.vasa.org.au
and read the pdf statement.
Paul

[WINJA]

maybe the solution is to make r134a $us50 a kg from the wholesalers that will make everyone think about refrigerant handling methods, but banning 'no thanks'

[sparrow]

Then wat will be alternate for R134A.If its banned

The alternative for R134a that has a G.W.P. of 1300, could be future refrigerants like R477( valeo- co based GWP 1) or R152a (USA – GWP 140)

I expect it will be down to each country to determine what they find acceptable.It could be something else entirely that we have yet no prior knowledge of.

Sparrow

[Karl Hofmann]

R600a has already been used to replace R134a in a lot of instances.

:) As far as cars are concerned Australia has been using hydrocarbons in mobile air conditioning systems for over 10 years without any problems.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V4R-4BX79WY-6&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb293038d85ff0873d9585e84a50f848

Hmmm apart from the mad professor who demonstrated how safe HC refrigerants were in cars by filling the cabin (as can happen when an evaporator fails) and then lighting it... You can guess the rest. by their very design, cars are designed to leak, so if the car manufacturers could design a system to keep the R134a in, then there would be no problem..

Besides, the Swiss all live on a bloody cold mountain so it just doesn't matter to them..:D Perhaps they should consider how much CO2 they produce in burning fuel to keep themselves warm;)

Message to the VAT man.... NOW do you believe that my VAT return got lost in the post? :eek:

[Tony]

Hi PaulZ,

thanks for the info, but if its the document you are refering to - it only seems to be about handling of fluorocarbon refrigerants and not problems with using hydrocarbons.

If I am reading the wrong document then I apolagize.

[PaulZ]

Sorry Tony go to the one about the warning to Australian technicians about their liabilities, third one down on the list.

[The MG Pony]

The weather changes. It always has, since the dawn of time... long before mankind walked the Earth. If the change is gradual, it is not catastrophic. We adapt.

And there is the problem it isn't gradual all the crap we are dumping in the atmospher with nature having no way of dealing with it is drasticaly accelerating it.

[The MG Pony]

Fair enough. I'm calling your bluff. Let's see your evidence.

You will need to prove that:

A. Every last human being will cease to exist.

B. This will happen within 100 years.

C. Mankind can somehow keep this from happening.

We can stop it from happening by moving as much as possible to natural refrigerants, the type that nature knows how to deal with. By reducing our power wastage and reducing carbon dioxide out put, stricter energy laws and more efficient products, going back to selling bulk goods with re-usable containers as law.

Many things can be don that are simple, I look at my hydrobill(Power) and it is non existant, 100 for three months of power at worst!all you need to do is put in a tiny bit of effort to make power efficient usage a habbit!

Any thing short there of is willfull ignorance not lack of evidince and laziness at best selfish greed at worst.

[The MG Pony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q71cMRGXx9o

Oh and the idiots are using R-134a as caned air duster along with R-152a :(

We as a society and species learnt sweet f*ck all from the whole R-12 fiasco

[Karl Hofmann]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q71cMRGXx9o

Oh and the idiots are using R-134a as caned air duster along with R-152a :(

We as a society and species learnt sweet f*ck all from the whole R-12 fiasco


I would have no problem in following regulations if they made sense, we are told that R134a must be recovered and that the penalties for not doing so are stiff...So why the hell can I blast pipe freezer off to the atmosphere... I passed some through my little refrigerant identifier and guess what??? Yep is was R134a

I'm afraid that I don't buy into the Climate change thing, but I do prefer to breath good clean air and drink clean water so I prefer to apply common sense rules than being so anal about such things.

We have to recover refrigerants and are crucified for not doing so yet the uber rich car makers make ac components that are designed to corrode away just outside of warranty, thus dumping refrigerant to the air...what is being done about such stupidity...Yeah right!!!

When the idiots in charge get their acts together, then I will take notice:mad::mad:

[Argus]

Can anyone clear up an issue that seems to have everyone perplexed.

I have been informed that Switzerland is to ban R134a as of Jan 2008 (and some has already been banned)

I am also told that this only applies to applications using over 3KG - so therefore it would appear that domestic refrigerators would be exempt from this.

Can anyone confirm this?



I'd be interested to see the small print.

Anyway, the Swiss are entitled to do as they please with regard to restricting or taxing chemicals. They are not in the EU.

Similarly Norway have very high taxes on HFCs and some EU countries already have similar restrictions on the use of HFCs in place, notably Denmark and Austria that were in place before the F Gas REgulations came into force. In the terms of the F Gas regulation, they are allowed to keep these in place until 2012. Clearly they wish to switch to other fluids.

EU countries are not allowed to impose any other new restrictions on HFCs unilaterally, that would be illegal.



.

[Gary]

Columbus, being a big fan of the latest science, predicted the coming of a solar eclipse.

He told the local island natives that his God was angry with them and would turn day into night.

Lo and behold God blocked out the sun and the local natives were taught to obey their masters.

The natives haven't gotten any smarter. If/when the Earth gets warmer, this does not prove anything beyond a predicted change in the weather. It does not prove that mankind caused it, nor does it prove that mankind could have prevented it by obeying the dictates of their masters.

[Gary]

We can stop it from happening by moving as much as possible to natural refrigerants, the type that nature knows how to deal with. By reducing our power wastage and reducing carbon dioxide out put, stricter energy laws and more efficient products, going back to selling bulk goods with re-usable containers as law.

Many things can be don that are simple, I look at my hydrobill(Power) and it is non existant, 100 for three months of power at worst!all you need to do is put in a tiny bit of effort to make power efficient usage a habbit!

Any thing short there of is willfull ignorance not lack of evidince and laziness at best selfish greed at worst.

The above statement provides no evidence and proves absolutely nothing. It is simply an unfounded assertion. Where's the proof?

BTW, your efforts to reduce your energy costs are based upon your selfish greed. Some poor energy company employee will no doubt lose his job and his family will starve, because of you.

[Gary]

And there is the problem it isn't gradual all the crap we are dumping in the atmospher with nature having no way of dealing with it is drasticaly accelerating it.

You make a series of unfounded assertions in the above statement. I would challenge you to prove any of it, but in order for it to be a true statement you must prove all of it.

[Gary]

Here is my equally plausible theory, based on nothing but blind faith and tiny nuggets of scientific wisdom:

The Earth is long overdue for an ice age. Through the heroic efforts of the industrial revolutionists in pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, the ice age has been postponed, thus saving the Earth for future generations.

The evil Greenies, in their selfish lust for power and money, have passed numerous laws, micro-managing entire industries, with untold billions of dollars changing hands, the result of which will be future generations freezing their butts off.

In another 100 years, the UFO's will find nothing but frozen corpses to prove we were here.

[The MG Pony]

I need to prove nothing, it has all been don by valide science all ready, again in comes the will full ignorance part as stated, some chose to ignore reality, I can't help that.

Selfish to keep my area clean? Odd and perverted way of seeing it. There is no energy shortage just wanton waste of energy that is un-needed

[The MG Pony]

Here is my equally plausible theory, based on nothing but blind faith and tiny nuggets of scientific wisdom:

The Earth is long overdue for an ice age. Through the heroic efforts of the industrial revolutionists in pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, the ice age has been postponed, thus saving the Earth for future generations.

The evil Greenies, in their selfish lust for power and money, have passed numerous laws, micro-managing entire industries, with untold billions of dollars changing hands, the result of which will be future generations freezing their butts off.

In another 100 years, the UFO's will find nothing but frozen corpses to prove we were here.

Then you do not have a theory, you have an assumption/gues/hypothisis most certainly not a theory.

Perhaps thats the problem you lack a good understanding of science to call a hypothisis a theory.

To call it a theory you must have falsifiable evidence and proof.

Nothing is wrong with change, it is the rate of change thats the problem, what is so hard to grasp about that?

[Gary]

I need to prove nothing, it has all been don by valide science all ready, again in comes the will full ignorance part as stated, some chose to ignore reality, I can't help that.


So... you offer no evidence, scientifically valid or otherwise, simply assuring us that such evidence exists. Yet another unfounded statement.

No, you don't need to prove anything, but then why would you expect anyone to believe you?

It is you who are willfully ignorant. You have been duped by those who have a political/economic axe to grind, but you refuse to believe it, choosing instead to ignore reality.

[chillin out]

There is a prize to be won .As far as i can remember it is around 125 000 dollars if you prove that these gases are the to blame for the ozone layer....found it somewhere on google can't remember the link .
I think the prize was for re-building the ozone layer, and it was put up by Sir Richard Branson.
(I think)

LOL @ this thread...
We spend our whole time telling the shop guys and domestic owners that come on here to go and get a professional to do the work because they know whats best... then we start arguing with scientists that know more about this than we will ever know.
Hypercritical to say the least.


@ the guys who disbelieve, as you don't believe the scientists does this mean that you don't reclaim gas and such like?

p.s. please keep this thread from turning into a slagging match, you know it will only get closed.

Chillin:):)

[Tony]

Thanks PaulZ - It still all seems like opinions and very little facts to me.

LPG cars carry around a tank fuul of the stuff.

And how many evaporators have burst in car systems - because to get an explosive mix there has to be between 2 and 10% roughly of HCs mixed with air.

I am still not convinced.

[Karl Hofmann]

Thanks PaulZ - It still all seems like opinions and very little facts to me.

LPG cars carry around a tank fuul of the stuff.

And how many evaporators have burst in car systems - because to get an explosive mix there has to be between 2 and 10% roughly of HCs mixed with air.

I am still not convinced.


More evaporators than you would imagine..I have been sitting in a customers Range Rover just checking the vent temps when the evap let go..Rangeys are a common leaker, as are all Chrysler products, Volvos too, Galaxys also.... Its not the fact that cars have LPG tanks, it is the fact that the LPG system is designed to contain a flammable substance, ac systems are not

The scientists themselves cant agree on the effect of man on the environment.. So could someone explain to me why R134a must be recovered yet pipe freezer (R134a) is OK to blow off to atmosphere? I'm not suggesting that we should all blow R134a off but I AM suggesting that those clever ****s who know more than we do (Supposedly) should not allow this stuff to be used as a pipe freezer and also whilst they are at it demand that car manufacturers make a more robust system and stop using steel clips to support alloy hoses...Schoolboy physics 101

I saw an article on country file on how much methane farm animals produce, I cant remember the exact figures but surly the banning of farm animals would help immeasurably.. we must all become vegetarians and drive the ultimate environmentalist red herring..The Prius...Christ! I don't want to live any more.

I do believe that curbing the wastefulness of western society is a good thing, making things more efficient but also making them more durable and easier to repair rather than throwing away and buying new... The key to our pollution problem (Note that I do not hold with the beliefs that we are a major contributer to global warming) is to consume less and make what we have last longer.

I cannot believe that I had to shell out over £200 to sit in a class room so that I can have a certificate to tell my customers that they need TRVs on their radiators, need a time clock, room stat and an insulated hot water cylinder...If this is not our so called leaders and superiors generating opportunities for ex middle managers who don't want to get a real job, then I just don't know what is

Oh yes, ban Volcanos too...They are really bad!

[PaulZ]

I have been reading this post and I thought I would throw my two bobs worth in.
As with a lot of the studies done about the environment there is always 2 sides to the debate, it depends on how the information is interpreted and how the studies where carried out. Results can be manipulated to acheive the desired result.

Regardless of whether human activity is contributing to global warming or the hole in the ozone layer shouldn't we all be trying reduce the pollution of our environment and recycle or reuse where possible.
I would like my grandchildren or great grandchildren to grow up in a clean environment as I did.
I agree with Karl that manufacturers should make things more durable. Go back 40 or 50 years when domestic fridges were made, they were nearly bullet proof. These days everything is made just strong enough to get through the warranty period. Evaporator and condenser tubes are so thin they crack after a few of years service.

The western world has become a throw away society and this has been allowed by our governments.

Paul

[coldy]

Hi i m new in this in this forum, i d like say what i think about this issue;

I think the main reason behind the restriction of F-gases is to provide new models to the market. With the proposed bannes market will need new models and eventually will ask for it.

As many of friends ve told before there are many things harmful to world like exhaust of cars or giant natural farms.

Coldy

[ejacob]

I dont think it will happen in the near future. Whatever change is there, it is gradual and take a long time.

[The MG Pony]

So... you offer no evidence, scientifically valid or otherwise, simply assuring us that such evidence exists. Yet another unfounded statement.

No, you don't need to prove anything, but then why would you expect anyone to believe you?

It is you who are willfully ignorant. You have been duped by those who have a political/economic axe to grind, but you refuse to believe it, choosing instead to ignore reality.

Are you that full of your self? I said look at all the evidence all ready out there why do I need to spoon feed you years worth of collected data? You have a brain don't you? and eyes as well? This is not some thing that will fit in a post and can be summed up.

let me gues you think R-12 helps the environment too? Have ya looked out the window lately or do you walk with blinders on, this sh*t isn't even abstract in les then 10 years there have been scary dramatic shifts in how the weather works here far beyond the normal cyclic scope We used to get plenty of snow EVERY year, now we're lucky to see a flake, the mountains are no longer covered in snow year round like they all ways where, and we are dumping metric tons of CO2 Methane, Refrigerants that can't be proccessed by nature and you think that doesn't have an effect? How dense can you get, start dumping cyanide in your house, just a little,, see nothing happend to you, now, dump 45 gallons of it and see how it goes for you! it is a function of quantity Vs time, we are cranking out more and faster then nature can deal will it so it is collecting, theres your summery.

Go educate your self with basics then look at the evidince. it is more solid then not.

[The MG Pony]

I dont think it will happen in the near future. Whatever change is there, it is gradual and take a long time.

Not really, and there within lies the problem, globar warming is a considerably bad term to use, more accurate is accelerated climat change. If it where slow like it should be the ecosystems would addapt (Yes us too we are appart of the ecosystem) but due to the stuff we are dumping in the atmospher at the rate we are we are drasticaly accelerating things that and amplifying weather effects.

[Gary]

You rattle on and on with absolutely nothing to say. You point to a change in the weather and somehow imagine that proves something beyond a change in the weather.

Since you brought up the R12 fiasco... where is the smoking gun?

Environmentalists are still pointing to the hole in the ozone, which may or may not have existed all along, because their best proof, the bottom line, the proverbial smoking gun of the ozone depletion theory, i. e. the predicted global increase in ground level UV, just simply didn't happen.

But the outrageous taxation and the oppressive regulation of our industry happened, didn't it? And that's what it was all about, taxation and regulation.

The proposed "solution" to each and every environmental crisis, whether real or imagined, brings us a giant step closer to total government control of our every waking moment.

What we are going to leave for our grandchildren and great grandchildren is global dictatorship.

[Gary]

...we are dumping metric tons of CO2 Methane, Refrigerants that can't be proccessed by nature and you think that doesn't have an effect?

We are in fact dumping 27 billion metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? It is 1.3% of the total, with Mother Nature dumping the other 98.7%.

Do you seriously believe that mankind's miniscule contribution has anything to do with the changing of the weather? Or that outrageous taxation and regulation can prevent the weather from changing? Are you that full of yourself?

[Argus]

..


Gentlemen.....

The original post was about Switzerland reducing its use of HFCs I believe in static plant as they do not have a home-grown automobile industry and cars are covered by separate European legislation.

This is really going way off-topic and as a discussion, going nowhere other than airing opposing views at odds with the original question.

May I ask that you both agree to differ?

.

[Peter_1]

Gary isn't sure, MG Ponny isn't sure, I'm not sure and in fact, nobody's sure what the real reason may be.
Gary has brings also no evidence that thee statements aren't true and he has also hasn't shown any evidence that the theory he believes in is a normal nature cycle.
Nobody can give 100% evidence and you can only decide for yourself what you believe.
So what I do is taking the worst case scenario and follow the guidelines from those who say that there is a big chance that our industry contributes also to the ozone hole.

I don't want my grandchildren points to me in the very near future because I took the wrong decission regarding the environment.
This is for me common sense.

And let us be honest, what is wrong with using less energy, trying to avoid leaks, driving with a smaller car, setting the thermostat a little bit lower,...?
It sureley can't harm but it harms anyhow if we don't do anything at all. Look to Bangkok where policemans in the street have to wear face masks, if you see the polution in the sea, ....

[Karl Hofmann]

The issues raised are emotive ones and ones that can polarise the views of clearly intelligent men. Scientists can only report their findings yet the uninformed politicians and speculators can twist anything to suit their own agenda.. Environmentalism is big business yet wanton waste will poison us long before we cook, I'm sure. We cannot control the weather anymore than Canute could stop the tide from coming in but we can control the amount of toxic stuff that we pump in to the air, whether our country produces the toxins or China produces them, we will all be responsible because we are all the end user.

[Gary]

Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it. Perhaps a short history lesson is in order:

Several years before MGPony was born, the refrigeration industry was presented with the Ozone Depletion Theory. That is, the actual scientific theory as opposed to the Hollywood version.

The actual theory (worst case scenario) called for an increase in ground level UV resulting in an increase in skin cancers. The solution, as originally proposed, was to phase out CFC refrigerants at the manufacturing level over a reasonable period of time.

Some of the oldtimers here may recall a "Nightline" segment where the opposing sides came together to do battle. Ted Koppel didn't know what to talk about, because there was no battle. The entire refrigeration industry, myself included, overwhelmingly agreed to the phaseout as a reasonable solution, just in case the theory might be true.

If that entirely reasonable solution had been the extent of it, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But environmentalists don't know the meaning of "reasonable", nor do they know the meaning of "truth".

Along came the quasi-scientific Hollywood version which was heavily promoted by the environmentalists, complete with scorched Earth, end of civilization scenarios ala "Mad Max: Thunderdome".

Somehow that became the officially accepted version, and what followed went far beyond phaseout, micro-managing our entire industry at every level.

Right around that period of time, I first heard the outrageous claim that human beings would cease to exist within 100 years. I say, "PROVE IT".

[The MG Pony]

You rattle on and on with absolutely nothing to say. You point to a change in the weather and somehow imagine that proves something beyond a change in the weather.

Since you brought up the R12 fiasco... where is the smoking gun?

Environmentalists are still pointing to the hole in the ozone, which may or may not have existed all along, because their best proof, the bottom line, the proverbial smoking gun of the ozone depletion theory, i. e. the predicted global increase in ground level UV, just simply didn't happen.

But the outrageous taxation and the oppressive regulation of our industry happened, didn't it? And that's what it was all about, taxation and regulation.

The proposed "solution" to each and every environmental crisis, whether real or imagined, brings us a giant step closer to total government control of our every waking moment.

What we are going to leave for our grandchildren and great grandchildren is global dictatorship.

OH NOES! TEH COMM-U-Nists are teh commin! Teh new global order is gonna take use teh overs lozers!

At this point I'd say you have some paranoia issues and should seek help about that and get a grip on reality.

Ya know trying not to f*ck this globe up like a goat at a Roman party isn't some consperisy to control you ever think that just may be it's about not wrecking the thing that keeps our a*ses alive? or did you lable your self some kind of deity and mandate that your convinance is of the utt most priority and screw every other living thing?

I say ban R-134a Too, hell I frankly would like to see tons of them banned as to maney people are to stupid/selfish/or flat out retarded to be trusted with them! Tons of natural HC refrigerants and amonia that work just fine.

You remind me of the type that would shoot your self in the foot if it made it easier to hammer a nail, thats what this whole climate change issue comes to ones against want to continue being wastefull pigs only conerned about their own selfs and wanting every thing to be easy and cheap and screw every one around them, like the as$ hole smoking inside the bus stop, the ones for better Environmental protection are willing to make sacrifices to ensure every one ellses futurs and their own are safe from being polluted and poisend.

[The MG Pony]

Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it. Perhaps a short history lesson is in order:

Several years before MGPony was born, the refrigeration industry was presented with the Ozone Depletion Theory. That is, the actual scientific theory as opposed to the Hollywood version.

The actual theory (worst case scenario) called for an increase in ground level UV resulting in an increase in skin cancers. The solution, as originally proposed, was to phase out CFC refrigerants at the manufacturing level over a reasonable period of time.

Some of the oldtimers here may recall a "Nightline" segment where the opposing sides came together to do battle. Ted Koppel didn't know what to talk about, because there was no battle. The entire refrigeration industry, myself included, overwhelmingly agreed to the phaseout as a reasonable solution, just in case the theory might be true.

If that entirely reasonable solution had been the extent of it, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But environmentalists don't know the meaning of "reasonable", nor do they know the meaning of "truth".

Along came the quasi-scientific Hollywood version which was heavily promoted by the environmentalists, complete with scorched Earth, end of civilization scenarios ala "Mad Max: Thunderdome".

Somehow that became the officially accepted version, and what followed went far beyond phaseout, micro-managing our entire industry at every level.

Right around that period of time, I first heard the outrageous claim that human beings would cease to exist within 100 years. I say, "PROVE IT".

I am anti alarmism, but I am strictly for going with solid science, and looking at the facts the end resualt is not holy wood BS, It is stronger storms and ****y living conditions, and it is happening now.

As for the R-12 it will be years till the remaining R-12 has been taken out of the environment, still being vented from fly by night idiots and from ****y recycling yards who refuse to recover from fridges. I see banning the worst GW refrigerants banned is good, switch more over to HC, they work fine and using 12 brain cells you'll never have a problem with an HC.

It's not about whether you or I is right, it is about use being here to fight about it and water that wont mutate your children/grand children. I hate to use pascals wager but well you aut to know it goes.

[The MG Pony]

Gary isn't sure, MG Ponny isn't sure, I'm not sure and in fact, nobody's sure what the real reason may be.
Gary has brings also no evidence that thee statements aren't true and he has also hasn't shown any evidence that the theory he believes in is a normal nature cycle.
Nobody can give 100% evidence and you can only decide for yourself what you believe.
So what I do is taking the worst case scenario and follow the guidelines from those who say that there is a big chance that our industry contributes also to the ozone hole.

I don't want my grandchildren points to me in the very near future because I took the wrong decission regarding the environment.
This is for me common sense.

And let us be honest, what is wrong with using less energy, trying to avoid leaks, driving with a smaller car, setting the thermostat a little bit lower,...?
It sureley can't harm but it harms anyhow if we don't do anything at all. Look to Bangkok where policemans in the street have to wear face masks, if you see the polution in the sea, ....

Thats my point, a slight effort in changes habits gurentees a better futur, not to mention saves you money and opens more resources for a better way of life.

I find the middle, I balance every thing against its self so for there is no reason not to try and minimize waste and reduce energy uses and every reason to from savings to less polution!

[taz24]

I've worked in the industry for a long, long time now and I have seen a lot of changes, both in regulations and attitudes.

For my part I'm not sure if we are changeing the worlds weather paterns by our emmisions but the weather is changeing and not for the better.

So if there is a slight chance that we are contributing to the problem then I'm all for regulation to try and slow the change down or stop it altogether.

Who is right realy does not matter.
If the world is changing because of natural cycles then what we do or do not do makes little difference. Some people may say it is end times weather.

But I ask a question to all.

If what we do does affect the environment then can we put a financial cost to the future of the world?


Just my tuppence worth.

taz.

[Thermatech]

following many skiing holidays in Switzerland I have to say that they have & continue to maintain one of the most wonderfull & beautiful environments in europe.

They are not a party to the euro zone & do not have airconditioniong manufactures or car manufacturers.
But they are very good at making stuf like watches & clocks.
Refco is the only manufacturer in Switzerland that I know about & they make manifold gauges & the like.

So they are in a possition where they can independantly ban any refrigerant they like & it will have almost no impact on the economy for them because they do not manufacture a/c products.
EU can do nothing because Switzerland is independant from Brussels.
Switzerland is soon to loose its largest proportion of income from Skiing because soon there will be no more snow left at the ski resorts due climate change.

The government in Switzerland therefore feel the need to make international statements which are acceptable to the local people who are worried about the snow or lack of it.
This shows the people of Switzerland that the government is doing more than other euro states to protect the environment.
I think commentators call it 'for domestic consumption '

[taz24]

This shows the people of Switzerland that the government is doing more than other euro states to protect the environment.
I think commentators call it 'for domestic consumption '



The UK will be phaseing out 134a soon.
The IOR are looking into it.

taz.

[Gary]

It's not about whether you or I is right, it is about use being here to fight about it and water that wont mutate your children/grand children.

The end of mankind? Mutant grandchildren? And you think I'm paranoid?

Does your fantasy include mutant ninja turtles?

[Peter_1]

Thats my point, a slight effort in changes habits gurentees a better futur, not to mention saves you money and opens more resources for a better way of life.

I find the middle, I balance every thing against its self so for there is no reason not to try and minimize waste and reduce energy uses and every reason to from savings to less polution!

MgPonny, this is exactly how I see it, slight effort in changes habits guarantees a better future.
And referring to the past Gary is mostly a wrong way to prove something or support your ideas.
You have to look forwards.
It's not because something went a certain way in the past that it will follow now the same way.

And what MGPonny says about mutating is perhaps exagerating a little bit but I live along the Belgium coast. This happened never when I was young but every ummer now, some parts of the sea are so poluted that they have to close some big parts of the beach.
Look around the widespread cancers, everybody know certainly someone around him who has cancer. When I was young, there were not so much peoples with cancer around me.
Look what happened in Tsjernobyl, in Bopal,.... These are facts my friend. We're destroying nature and those who don't see this are more than blind.

[Gary]

We are not talking about voluntary efforts, nor are we talking about persuasion. We are talking about laws. We are talking about forcing the non-believers to conform and punishing those who do not.

Are you willing to punish people on the off chance that they may be causing some ill defined and unproven harm in the far distant future? I am not.

Before I advocate punishment, I want to be damned awful sure that the harm is real.

Prove it.

[Gary]

And what MGPonny says about mutating is perhaps exagerating a little bit...

But he claims to be anti-alarmist and guided by solid science. What does "alarmist" mean if not exageration?

I can't wait to see the solid science behind the mutant grandchildren theory. But wait... he says he doesn't have to prove anything.

Not wanting to be spoonfed, I will do an online search for "Mutant Grandchildren Theory". I'm sure there must be volumes of solid scientific data on the subject.

[Gary]

And referring to the past Gary is mostly a wrong way to prove something or support your ideas.
You have to look forwards.


On the contrary, we must learn from our mistakes.

If/when the Ozone Depletion Theory is proven false, will all of the laws which were passed be repealed? Will those who have been punished as a result of it be compensated? Will the environmentalists who exagerated (just a little bit) humbly apologize for misleading the public?

Or will we ignore the past and continue to enact real laws with real punishments based upon exagerated claims and unproven theories?

The sane, measured, reasonable response to the Ozone Depletion Theory (whether ultimately proven right or wrong) was the phaseout of CFC refrigerants at the manufacturing level (as originally proposed by the involved scientists themselves)

... and nothing else.

All the rest of it was (and still is) unnecessary overkill based upon the 1980's equivalent of the Mutant Grandchildren Theory.

Is it unreasonable to demand proof before passing laws and punishing people?

[taz24]

Is it unreasonable to demand proof before passing laws and punishing people?

Gary I do not totaly agree with the evidence that claims we are causeing all the woes of the world.

That said though, if there was the slightest possible chance that we were to blaim for the changes in the worlds weather paterns, would it be worth any price to minimise the problem?

taz

[Gary]

There is a slight chance that you will be struck by lighting at some time in your life. Are you willing to pay absolutely any price (in the form of extraordinary precautions) in order to avoid that possibility?

Or is there some level of precautions that you would consider to be reasonable and some level of precautions that you would consider to be unreasonable... perhaps even insane.

[The MG Pony]

The end of mankind? Mutant grandchildren? And you think I'm paranoid?

Does your fantasy include mutant ninja turtles?

your inability to understand abstract thought is disapointing. Oh well some people just don't get the idea behind the words, sorry can't make it any simpler for you.

[The MG Pony]

But he claims to be anti-alarmist and guided by solid science. What does "alarmist" mean if not exageration?

I can't wait to see the solid science behind the mutant grandchildren theory. But wait... he says he doesn't have to prove anything.

Not wanting to be spoonfed, I will do an online search for "Mutant Grandchildren Theory". I'm sure there must be volumes of solid scientific data on the subject.

Ok Now I must ask are you realy this brain dead or are you just being asinine?

Go take a cup of water from a lake here, its called trout lake in Vancouver, if you live through the night remind me to send you a get well card, oh and some of the lovely chemicals in the pollutents cuase sever birth defects ie mutations, fatal ones but mutations non the less.

Denial only works for so long and in the end distroys you. I've sat back and watched the science and observed my environment, I grew up in a place where you could drink ditch water with out worry, now days it will kill you, odd thing is same ditch, differant time, why now is the water toxic that was once clean and safe?

Did nature put gasoline by products oil and tars into it for a luagh?

You are going off on wild as$umptions and taking quasie sarcastic statemts and prentending them to be serious, is reality so scary to you that you must do this? Frankly the out look is scary to see what living conditions are becoming, and attitudes like that have kept the USA the worlds worst polluting country, even more so then China! How is this possible is beyond me, but now they too are catching up, what then?

How maney have died in New york after 9/11 due to air pollution? Is this alarmist? How is informing people of the reality of the situation alarmist? Then what does that make you? Antireality alarmist?


Or is being a energy pig really so important to your culture that you will ignore a reality staring you in the face and change nothing to run to a polluted futur?

This is fact, other countries have all ready gotten there, past civilizations far stronger and superior have consumend them selfs to oblivion, and you are all ready on that road, we all are, but thank fully now we are realizing it and trying to get off it, well some of us.

[The MG Pony]

Oh and Garry LEARN WHAT THE WORD THEORY MEANS!

Christ at least then you'll have a bloody clue.

[Gary]

Have I, at any point in this discussion, stated that pollution doesn't exist... or that nothing should be done about it? I don't think so.

Does the pollution of Trout Lake in Vancouver prove that mankind is causing global warming... or that outrageous taxation and regulation can avert global warming? Hardly.

I am not opposed to reasonable solutions to proven problems, nor am I opposed to reasonable precautionary measures in response to solid scientific theories. The key word here is "reasonable".

But when have environmentalists ever been reasonable? The hallmark of the environmentalist movement is gross overkill. It is a movement that is heavily dominated by its lunatic fringe.

[WINJA]

Theres many lakes near me , one of them is toxic yet the one closest to town and the coal mine is ok for swimming and drinking , not all water pollution or toxicity is man made , and it certainly wont be the r134a doing it

[The MG Pony]

Have I, at any point in this discussion, stated that pollution doesn't exist... or that nothing should be done about it? I don't think so.

Does the pollution of Trout Lake in Vancouver prove that mankind is causing global warming... or that outrageous taxation and regulation can avert global warming? Hardly.

I am not opposed to reasonable solutions to proven problems, nor am I opposed to reasonable precautionary measures in response to solid scientific theories. The key word here is "reasonable".

But when have environmentalists ever been reasonable? The hallmark of the environmentalist movement is gross overkill. It is a movement that is heavily dominated by its lunatic fringe.

I ignore the main stream ones and look at the science, the evidince and data is there stop leting info be fed to you go out and read it your self, you have to pull it in from multiple streams, took me sh*t loads of hunting to get the info I did and sheer luck to be at the same point of space and time as some of the people who do the research.

For me it is a nearly closed case, every thing lines up logicaly and soundly, After all a pre-requsit of a theory is testible evidience.

[taz24]

For me it is a nearly closed case, every thing lines up logicaly and soundly, After all a pre-requsit of a theory is testible evidience.


Are you still talking about refrigerants or are you refering to pollution in the lakes around you?

If you have found proof and it is proveable then what proof have you found?

Cheers taz.

[Gary]

I ignore the main stream ones and look at the science, the evidince and data is there stop leting info be fed to you go out and read it your self, you have to pull it in from multiple streams, took me sh*t loads of hunting to get the info I did and sheer luck to be at the same point of space and time as some of the people who do the research.

For me it is a nearly closed case, every thing lines up logicaly and soundly, After all a pre-requsit of a theory is testible evidience.

In general, I refrain from criticizing other people's writing because I feel it is rude, but I would suggest that you remove the word "it" in that last paragraph and instead insert whatever "it" you are referring to so that I can tell what you are talking about. Too abstract for me.

[Gary]

Let's suppose that we can prove conclusively that global warming is caused by CO2 emissions.

Since human activity accounts for 1.3% of the total emissions, we can conclude that we have indeed accelerated global warming. The problems occuring 100 years from now would have occured 101.3 years from now, as nature intended.

If we divide the 1.3 years of acceleration by the number of humans on the planet, each person is responsible for some tiny fraction of a second.

Obviously then, we must pass a long list of very strict laws by which every human being on the planet is heavily taxed, micro-managed and beaten into submission (apply thumbscrews liberally). Only then can we successfully delay the inevitable for 1.3 years.

If this solution seems excessive to you, it is because you are motivated by selfish greed and you don't care about your grandchildren, you evil heartless prick.

On the off chance that the theory is wrong and/or global warming doesn't happen... we can just say, "Oops" and move on to the next theoretical global crisis... and the next... and the next...

[The MG Pony]

you see you fixated on just one thing, CO2, it is not just CO2 it is refrigerant, methanes, and other such pollutants. At the same time we cut down massive amounts of forrest that just happen to filter out an aspect of it.

See it is a multiple of issues converging to attenuate the problem. So we are pumping out ever increasing amounts while cuting down on the best of the filters for the job!

We are doing so much to make the problem worse and have people in denial refusing to looking at the issue!

[The MG Pony]

Oh so you rather shoot your self in the foot for what?

Worst thing if we're wrong we have clean air and less polluted land, holy sh*t what a scary thought clean land and air!

[Gary]

Oh so you rather shoot your self in the foot for what?

Worst thing if we're wrong we have clean air and less polluted land, holy sh*t what a scary thought clean land and air!

No, the worst that can happen if you are wrong is that we will be enslaved by our governments and still have global warming.

But no, that isn't quite right. Slavery is involuntary servitude and your servitude will obviously be voluntary. So let's rephrase that:

The worst that can happen if you are wrong is that some will be enslaved by their governments, some will voluntarily obey their masters, and we will still have global warming.

Oops... there I go with the conspiracy nut thing again, right? No sane person would believe there are conspiracies. Well... there is organized crime, but they don't conspire, do they? Nor do the middle east terrorists?

But governments don't conspire, right? Well... there was that little incident where Stalin killed off 25 million people, but he did that all by himself, didn't he?

Oh.. and there was the Hitler thing. No conspiracy there.

Nope, there are no conspiracies... although there are sometimes minor incidences of like minded people working together toward a common goal.

But our governments are the good guys, aren't they? Our governments are immune from the old "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" axiom.

They are just going to pass law after law after law until every waking moment of our lives comes under government scrutiny and every move we make must have government approval... for our own good, of course.

Some people might call that dictatorship, but they are just being paranoid conspiracy nuts.

[Andy]

Hello:)

I would say the co2 production will slow up in about 30 years when the oil run out:eek:

In the meantime what we do will make little differance unless we all do it:)

Kind Regards Andy :)

[Gary]

According to the scientists, Florida will be under water in 100 years. I strongly suspect that everyone will have vacated the premises by then.

On the other hand, according to the well known scientific documentary film "Waterworld" some of the mutant grandchildren will have developed gills by then.

[Gary]

you see you fixated on just one thing, CO2, it is not just CO2 it is refrigerant, methanes, and other such pollutants. At the same time we cut down massive amounts of forrest that just happen to filter out an aspect of it.

See it is a multiple of issues converging to attenuate the problem. So we are pumping out ever increasing amounts while cuting down on the best of the filters for the job!

We are doing so much to make the problem worse and have people in denial refusing to looking at the issue!

And you fixate on the problem, rather than the solution. Show us the price tag.

[Gary]

Hello:)

I would say the co2 production will slow up in about 30 years when the oil run out:eek:

In the meantime what we do will make little differance unless we all do it:)


Therefore we must do whatever it takes to force everyone into submission.

[The MG Pony]

My last post as you seem too disconected from reality, seek help and for christ sake learn the meaning of theory.

I'll tell you what it is not, just becuase you think it is true does not mean it is a theory, just becuase you do not like it does not make it a theory.

Your attitude is pathetic and sad, who needs air quality, who needs clean water.

I shall do as I have all ways don, save energy and be efficient and save money while at it (Holy sh*t being energy efficient SAVES MONEY? )

[Gary]

My last post as you seem too disconected from reality, seek help and for christ sake learn the meaning of theory.


Well... let's see.

Ozone Depletion is theory.

Government micro-management of the entire refrigeration industry is reality.

How's that for definitions?

[The MG Pony]

Gravity is just a theory too, why don't ya jump off a cliff and test it?

[Gary]

That's how environmentalists test theories, by pushing everyone off a cliff (after removing their wallets). Then they proclaim far and wide that at least they did something about the problem rather than sitting back and doing nothing. Anyone who objects to being pushed off the cliff is accused of being afraid of change. Well... yeah.

[Gary]

My last post as you seem too disconected from reality, seek help and for christ sake learn the meaning of theory.

I'll tell you what it is not, just becuase you think it is true does not mean it is a theory, just becuase you do not like it does not make it a theory.

Your attitude is pathetic and sad, who needs air quality, who needs clean water.

I shall do as I have all ways don, save energy and be efficient and save money while at it (Holy sh*t being energy efficient SAVES MONEY? )

Never once, in this very long discussion, have I stated or even implied that I am opposed to clean air, clean water, saving energy, being efficient, or saving money, yet you insist that I have.

And you think that I have a problem with reality. You are seeing words that aren't there. Get a grip. Learn to read.

I have stated repeatedly that I am in favor of reasonable solutions and opposed to unreasonable solutions. Show us your solutions to global warming.

[WINJA]

Instead of banning R134a they should just tighten up on its use, IE our local boat shop sells r134a propelled air horns ,surely theres an alternative, whats worse than that our electrial wholsaler still had the old cans of "FREEZE" on the shelf for sale which is pure r12 that you spray onto electrical stuff , he had lots for sale and still left it for sale after I told him what it was :mad:

[davidk]

Gentlemens, I have read all your posts and I saw no numbers. I see that R134a has GWP of 1300, but in every second more CO2 (GWP=1) is released than R134a in one year. You can make a simple math and agree that a single kilogram of R134a is equal to 1300kg of CO2.
So, we are debating now about banning a refrigerant which contributes to the global warming by only an insignifiant fraction compared to the CO2 emissions. I think this is like a bunch of tobaco smokers debating about lungs cancer risk induced by eating chocolate.

[paul_h]

Instead of banning R134a they should just tighten up on its use, IE our local boat shop sells r134a propelled air horns ,surely theres an alternative, whats worse than that our electrial wholsaler still had the old cans of "FREEZE" on the shelf for sale which is pure r12 that you spray onto electrical stuff , he had lots for sale and still left it for sale after I told him what it was :mad:


Gentlemens, I have read all your posts and I saw no numbers. I see that R134a has GWP of 1300, but in every second more CO2 (GWP=1) is released than R134a in one year. You can make a simple math and agree that a single kilogram of R134a is equal to 1300kg of CO2.
So, we are debating now about banning a refrigerant which contributes to the global warming by only an insignifiant fraction compared to the CO2 emissions. I think this is like a bunch of tobaco smokers debating about lungs cancer risk induced by eating chocolate.
I think the point here is R134a is a mis-used substance.
People are happy to spray it everywhere, mechanics and other people are happy to regas everyones car annually without finding leaks.
If it was used responsibly it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
Rather than banning it, I say it should be restricted to just licenced people, and the authorities worldwide should have the power to prosecute anyone releasing it intentionally, including running a service for car owners to complain if their newly regassed a/c needs regassing within a year of the last one. ie. no steps were taken to repair a leak the last time.
I don't buy this BS about cars inherently leaking, most of the cars I have owned, I've had for more than four years, and I've never had to regas them.
I've also worked with really big and old open drive systems with heaps of old joins and thread taped joins that don't leak. Also a variety of systems that have flexible lines, these and the old open drive systems run more than a car a/c, Why are car manufacturers, mechanics, auto electrictians etc allowed to get away with the "top ups are normal, all cars eventually leak, it's too hard to find, we'll just put some dye in it and catch it next time" mentality?
I've used dye as a last resort, as I could not find the leak. It seems the car industry uses i as th main leak checking tool, meaning that the r134a they just put in will definitely leak out before they even get around to leak checking.

[Gary]

Here is a much simpler solution: Just stop manufacturing R134a and dispose of the on-hand supply. What (relatively) little remains will eventually go away.

[Gary]

Instead of banning R134a they should just tighten up on its use, IE our local boat shop sells r134a propelled air horns ,surely theres an alternative, whats worse than that our electrial wholsaler still had the old cans of "FREEZE" on the shelf for sale which is pure r12 that you spray onto electrical stuff , he had lots for sale and still left it for sale after I told him what it was :mad:

Buy his entire supply and dispose of it properly. Consider this your contribution.

[WINJA]

Buy his entire supply and dispose of it properly. Consider this your contribution.
GET REAL , I DONT REALLY BUY ANY OF THE CFC AND GLOBAL WARMING B.S. LET ALONE HAVE THE INTENTION OF SHELLING OUT MY HARD EARNED$$ TO MAKE HIM RICHER, I JUST WANT HIM TO COMPLY LIKE I HAVE TOO , WE NEED TO SEPERATE THE ISSUES OF THE FACTS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE LAW REGAURDING CLIMATE CHANGE BECAUSE THE TWO SEEM TO HAVE NO RELATION, THE FACTS SEEM TO HAVE VERY LITTLE GOOD UNBIASED SCIENCE TO BACK THEM UP AND LOOKING AT WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT HAS DONE THE LAW IS JUST A BIG MONEY GRAB

[Peter_1]

........ Well... there is organized crime, but they don't conspire, do they? Nor do the middle east terrorists?

But governments don't conspire, right? Well... there was that little incident where Stalin killed off 25 million people, but he did that all by himself, didn't he?

Oh.. and there was the Hitler thing. No conspiracy there.
......

Here we go again.....Stalin, Middle East, Hitler...who else can we use to support our R134a discussion? Bush? Poetin?

[expat]

see TOMS for today's ozone layer http://jwocky.gsfc.nasa.gov/


I'm not a scientist but this doesn't look like a hole to me. And bear in mind that it is in spring in the south pole that the depletion process occurs due to very cold polar winds and the rising of the sun on the horizon.

[Gary]

Here we go again.....Stalin, Middle East, Hitler...who else can we use to support our R134a discussion? Bush? Poetin?

I'm not the one who brought up conspiracies.

[Gary]

... AND LOOKING AT WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT HAS DONE THE LAW IS JUST A BIG MONEY GRAB

Yep... our government, too. What a coincidence.

[expat]

Oh, and how come an ice cap is also melting on Mars?

This couldn't be anything to do with the giant burning ball we see in the sky everyday could it...?, nah it's probably the CFC's in the astronaunts' deodorants.

[pennswoodsed]

oh and the idiots are using R-134a as caned air duster along with R-152a :(

We as a society and species learnt sweet f*ck all from the whole R-12 fiasco[/QUOTE]

pretty much covers it
Regards,Ed

[davidk]

After ceasing The Cold War, humanity must be "threatened" by something, and some large amount of money must go somewhere else than in weapons. So, now we have "The Global Warming War", isn't it?
What's wrong in using R134a as a duster as a joke? I even breathe R134a in Ventolin CFC Free inhaler!

[Karl Hofmann]

Hmmm Thats got me thinking... I wonder if all this is the Swiss trying to start a war, perhaps they are running out of foreign gold to store in their vaults... I've got some scrap copper and lead pipe that they can look after for me...Its almost as dear as gold these days.. I really hate storing it in my shed just in case it gets swiped :D:D:D

[Gary]

We as a society and species learnt sweet f*ck all from the whole R-12 fiasco

According to the scientists, it can take up to 35 years for CFC refrigerants to reach the ozone layer. We should now be seeing the actual results of the many billions of tons of CFC's released to the atmosphere prior to 1973. The Ozone Depletion Theory should now be proveable. Where is the proof?

Why is this relevant to a discussion of R134a? Because if the Ozone Depletion Theory is false, then the proven, time tested, environmentally safe, thoroughly researched and well understood substitute for R134a is R12.

[Carlhui]

You make a series of unfounded assertions in the above statement. I would challenge you to prove any of it, but in order for it to be a true statement you must prove all of it.

I would suggest you to have a copy "Inconvenient Truth" by Gore.

[Carlhui]

Well... let's see.

Ozone Depletion is theory.

Government micro-management of the entire refrigeration industry is reality.

How's that for definitions?

In fact, I was in NZ south island for just abt 2 weeks. The whole skin colored dark, does extra UV make sense there. I would think the fact is NZ is too close the Antactic, under the giant ozone hole. can't imagin the whole world like that.

[Gary]

I would suggest you to have a copy "Inconvenient Truth" by Gore.

Hmmmm... I should get a book written by a politician... Isn't he the guy who invented the internet?

poli = many
tics = blood sucking creatures
politics = many blood sucking creatures

[TRASH101]

Is it safe to post on this thread yet:rolleyes:

If the pen is truly mightier than the sword this must surely be the bloodiest thread of all:(

The truth = strength of conviction + (fact/ bol**cks)
actual event x I told you so

bearing this in mind both MG and Gary are completely right (so far)

[taz24]

Is it safe to post on this thread yet:rolleyes:

If the pen is truly mightier than the sword this must surely be the bloodiest thread of all:(

The truth = strength of conviction + (fact/ bol**cks)
actual event x I told you so

bearing this in mind both MG and Gary are completely right (so far)


LOL

taz.

[DeB]

Did anyone find out if Switzerland was banning R134A?

[gosully]

No - Not one sensible answer.

Lots of useless facts and figures, but not one person has actually read the question and responded to it.

too busy getting their own point across in petty arguments unfortunatley,

If anyone does actually have an answer to the opening question it would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Argus]

.

Quite right. This thread disappeared into nonsense long ago.

But, what did the Swiss authorities say?

Have you asked them?

.

[Chicharronne]

134a is the worse schitt they made. I'll be glad when it's gone. was it just coincidence that they banned r12 the same time duponts patent ran out? I like "hot shot". put it right on top of r12 and is a replacement for 134a.

[EmCoastHVACR]

Most refrigerant replacement occurs when a company's license expires & generics flood the markets -- for example Dupont R12 & R22 patents expired so they come up with 134a & 410a to attemp to control the market.

[EmCoastHVACR]

The fact is a properly installed & maintained system doesn't leak -- I've seen plenty examples where chillers haven't leaked from 20 or more years of service -- more unqualified contractors & engineers should be held accountable.




It was perfectly right to ban R134A. In fact R404a should also be banned. If we don't try to save our planet even now, human race will history in another 100 years. Then we will not be there to blame the Greenies. Do you traces of vegetation is found in Antarctica. What are we heading at?

[EmCoastHVACR]

CO2 emissions from power plants, especially coal, cause 10 times more global warming than refrigerants.

Next we need to consider cars & trucks.

CO2 causes global warming -- refrigerants cause ozone depletion that can cause skin cancers, etc.

Hey -- why not capture the CO2 emissions from these processes for refrigeration -- know that's a novel idea!

[nike123]

The fact is a properly installed & maintained system doesn't leak -- I've seen plenty examples where chillers haven't leaked from 20 or more years of service -- more unqualified contractors & engineers should be held accountable.

I disagree with this statement.
Every system leak, even "hermetically sealed", no matter how good is commissioned, only difference is how much.
If every step of commissioning is done with great care and expertize, than we could expect many years without need to add refrigerant, in order to compensate for, inevitable, but small leak.

[nike123]

refrigerants cause ozone depletion that can cause skin cancers, etc.



And global warming! Familiarize yourself with term Global Warming Potential (GWP).

http://tinyurl.com/2omxbd

[davidk]

What about banning Sulfur hexafluoride? Are "scientists" so busy with refrigerants?

[chillin out]

CO2 causes global warming -- refrigerants cause ozone depletion that can cause skin cancers, etc.
I heard that R134a can cause testicular cancer.
Can't remember where I heard it from though.

Chillin:):)

[EmCoastHVACR]

I also heard that women in bikinis can cause testicular cancer:D

the key word in GWP is "Potential"

the fact is CO2, unequivocally, causes Global Warming -- based on current academic & government research -- HFC & HCFC refrigerants deplete ground level & atmospheric level ozone -- huge difference.

Some of the chiller systems that I service leak between 1 or 2 lbs a year to a few thousand lbs a year -- i've seen it all.

[chillin out]

http://glacier-gold-refrigerants.com/GlacierGoldInfo.html
http://autorefrigerants.com/Envirotechnical.htm
http://www.hydrocoolonline.com/comparison.html

I rest my case.

Chillin:):)

[Jorgen Bargsteen Moller]

Here is a reply from the Danfoss product manager in Switzerland Dominik Regenass:

To my knowlegde, there is no change for any refrigerant in Switzerland for the 1.1.2008

It's true that we have since 1.1.2004 a kind of license for new plants with more than 3kg HFKW.
But it's not prohibited to use this refrigerant.
You have to argue why to use a HFKW and you have to argue why a natural refrigerant is not possible to use.
For HFKW plants with more than 3kg, you must have a maintenance and service document and also a checkup of density (thightness).
There must be a technical service on those plants at least once a year and you have to document this.

See the following text from an official document:

The construction of equipment for refrigeration, air conditioning and heat pumps containing
more than 3 kg of refrigerants stable in the air - mainly hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) - has been
subject to licensing since 1 January 2004. A licence is granted if, according to the current state
of technology, no alternative substances or other technologies are available, and emissions are
restricted as far as possible. This guide is intended to provide practical help for the implementation
of licensing. It defines the current state of technology for different fields of application
(trade, industry and air conditioning). It includes compatibility with the environment, energy
efficiency, the level of technological development, reliability in operation, availability on the
market, economic acceptability and the safety of persons and of the environment. Since the state
of technology is evolving, the guide is updated periodically.

Regards Jorgen Bargsteen Moller, Danfoss

[Argus]

Jorgen,

Many thanks for throwing some light on this subject and bringing it back on topic.

From your explanation and recognising the fact that Switzerland is not an EU country, the measures in place there for F Gas plant echo and predate some of the requirements in the current new EU F Gas regulation, especially leak tightness and regular checks.

As far a permitted licensing of plant is concerned, as you describe in the second part of your post, it seems similar to the current rules in other European countries, notably Holland, Sweden etc.

It may seem odd to some in the UK and elsewhere, where the use and sale of refrigerants is virtually unregulated, but some countries have more stringent rules, though not particularly onerous in my opinion.

.