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rccarps2
11-02-2003, 06:59 PM
I currently can supply R-134a, R-22, R-12, and all alternatives in pallet or more quantities anywhere in the US. I can also ship container quantities of R-134a and R-22 anywhere in the world. Our prices are the best around. Email me at ryan@weitron.com for any sales inquiries.

jg/oz
15-02-2004, 08:18 AM
Friend, you must be from the US ( may be a firend or likeminded to Mr Bush) we in the other part of the world try to comply with Montreal and Kyoto Protocols. Don't mention R12 anymore please. We have all forgotten this and are still trying to get rid of our melanoma's
jg/oz

rccarps2
15-02-2004, 01:18 PM
jg/oz,

To be prefectly honest the United States has the best complience anywhere in the world with the use of R-12. In the United States it is illegal to import/export/produce R-12. R-12 in the United States is priced about 10 times higher than anwhereelse in the world. Actually Australia is still a major user of R-12, far more thna the United States. Asia, The middle East, Africa and South America comsume 1000's of times more R-12 than the United States does.

Peter_1
15-02-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by rccarps2
jg/oz,

To be perfectly honest the United States has the best compliance anywhere in the world with the use of R-12. In the United States it is illegal to import/export/produce R-12. R-12 in the United States is priced about 10 times higher than anwhereelse in the world. Actually Australia is still a major user of R-12, far more than the United States. Asia, The middle East, Africa and South America consume 1000's of times more R-12 than the United States does.

And why Bush didn't signed the Kyoto protocol? $$ is the answer.

"In the United States it is illegal to import/export/produce R-12"
It's in Europe even forbidden to use it, you may even not possess it anymore. You can have big fines for this.

Best compliance in the world?!!? :) :) :o you.
It's clearly you haven't an idea of the European regulations. Sorry

It's not because someone is spoiling the environment that this means you can do the same. It's wrong to compare with others to justifier your own bad behaviors.
It's a wrong attitude if you do this, there is always someone who's doing worser things in the world but this don't give you the right to do the same.

The same stupid crap - in my opinion - as stated in Kyoto that we here in Europe can buy fresh air from Russia.

rccarps2
15-02-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Peter_1
And why Bush didn't signed the Kyoto protocol? $$ is the answer.

"In the United States it is illegal to import/export/produce R-12"
It's in Europe even forbidden to use it, you may even not possess it anymore. You can have big fines for this.

Best compliance in the world?!!? :) :) :o you.
It's clearly you haven't an idea of the European regulations. Sorry

It's not because someone is spoiling the environment that this means you can do the same. It's wrong to compare with others to justifier your own bad behaviors.
It's a wrong attitude if you do this, there is always someone who's doing worser things in the world but this don't give you the right to do the same.

The same stupid crap - in my opinion - as stated in Kyoto that we here in Europe can buy fresh air from Russia.


I know that R-12 is illegal throughout Europe, actually a day doesnt go buy where I dont have someone call/email me requested R-12.
The only R-12 left in the United States is what is left in circulation, which is dwindling each day. The reason the United States did not outlaw the use of the gas completely is the cost. Can you imagine the cost to the economy if everyone had to immediatley convert systems to Alternatives and R-134a. It would be astronomical. Instead the change can be slow and less abusive to the economy.
I dont know about you but I have traveled to Australia, Asia, Africa and the Middle East and by far out of the countries that still use R-12 the United States is the most resposible.
R-12 in the US is basically a dead industry, the price of the gas in the US makes it less expensive to ugrade the A/C unit than to recharge with R-12. However, in foreign countries where R-12 30lb cylinder costs only $30-35 dollars it is easier to continue using R-12. So until these countries change their regulations to artificially increase the price, R-12 use will never die.

Peter_1
15-02-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by rccarps2
[B] Can you imagine the cost to the economy if everyone had to immediately convert systems to Alternatives and R-134a. It would be astronomical. Instead the change can be slow and less abusive to the economy.

Why it worked in Europe, where economical level is the same as in the US? And it was not that immediately as you mentioned, it took quite some years. There was plenty of time to retrofit everything.


I don't know about you but I have traveled to Australia, Asia, Africa and the Middle East and by far out of the countries that still use R-12 the United States is the most responsible.

I traveled not that much as you did, I have to work for living to feed my family :)

I visited many countries, also the US and Asia but that doesn't say anything about the fact that you know and understand the laws in those countries.
No, .. the fact you traveled a lot is besides the question.

What for instance with PED?

Hey... that's my point of view but who am I?

Mark
15-02-2004, 07:17 PM
Peter
I understand and agree with your points,we ie (EU)reclaim refrigerant as much as possible ,larger packs and vessels are fitted with leak detection sensors.Most larger supermarkets insist on routine leak detection and maintenance.Insurance company will not issue cover notes on larger equiptment without witnessed tests.
A custodial sentence is applied to venting,And still R12 is in circulation.

regards mark:)

chemi-cool
15-02-2004, 07:41 PM
hi peter,

in a way I agree with rccarps2
he want to make a quick buck. fine with me but this is not the place.

in third world countries, there are no GW problems and they don have problems with ozon layer. do you know why?

I will tell you.

because they cant afford to pay the money needed for these changes, they only try to make enough to buy food for their children whom are getting sold some times to rich people from the western world which you and me are a part of. and for peanuts!!

I have been there and see how they live.

we are thinking what car to buy or where to go sext summer.

they are trying to get enough for food. a car, vacations and even electricity is only a dream
and they work for western manufacturers making R12 for other places that dont have the money and the will to change into new "green" refrigerants .

Montreal and Kyoto Protocols - they will think its some kind of animals or flowers.

and yes I still use R12 and R502
and only because they are available.
the same here, not everyone can afford the big change and like my clients. so is me and you, we all got families to look after and my kids like yours or any one else, want university and other place to live.

its very expensive as you know. so some of us buy and use R12 and R502. or become plumbers (Iwill not)

you know my opinion about GW by now.

belive me peter, I use R12 and sleep very good at night.

its those people with R134a who should not sleep too well!!

chemi

Peter_1
15-02-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by chemi-cool
hi peter,

in third world countries, there are no GW problems and they don have problems with ozone layer. do you know why?

we are thinking what car to buy or where to go sext summer.

Montreal and Kyoto Protocols - they will think its some kind of animals or flowers.

and yes I still use R12 and R502
and only because they are available.
the same here, not everyone can afford the big change and like my clients. so is me and you, we all got families to look after and my kids like yours or any one else, want university and other place to live.

its very expensive as you know. so some of us buy and use R12 and R502. or become plumbers (Iwill not)

you know my opinion about GW by now.

belive me peter, I use R12 and sleep very good at night.

its those people with R134a who should not sleep too well!!

chemi

Due to a typing fault, you almost was looking for a sex summer Chemi :)

Serious now. You see, this angle of view is completely new for me. I read in the past only the bad effects of the ozonlayer due to different phenomenas, one of them our refrigerants.

I believed it because the same theories came from different renowned professors, from different countries.

I agree, there has been grown a little skeptical already after all your posts, not only yours but all the other who thinks in the same direction.

I was thinking also on the post from someone - forgot his name - who mentioned Army tests long time ago that stated that R134a was poisonous. This can be true or a fairytale, but can he prove this?

But isn't it funny that nobody from the chemical industry has argued that this different statement is completely right.
There must be somewhere be an employer who can tell us 'Yeah... I know it's all done for the money, to make that there will come a big new market for these new products... there was nothing wrong with R12 and R502'

For example, there was the statement that manufacturers already had all the new R134a stuff the moment they decided that R12 must be banned. Same for the gasses, compressors.
Professor Sporlan can give us a non prejudiced answer for this in so far he can do this deolontological (correct English expression?).

Each story has at least 2 sides, depending on the person who tells it. Both are mostly right.
History has learned us this many times like in each war,for example the last now in Iraq.

But what Chemi if the professors are right and you are wrong. Fact is that no one can prove this for 100%. Only history will tell it who was right.

Perhaps someday someone will say 'Even our great-grandfather Chemi once said.... and he was right'
Hope we make the right decission for the future of our grandkids and their grandkids, whatever we may decide.

jg/oz
16-02-2004, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by rccarps2
jg/oz,

To be prefectly honest the United States has the best complience anywhere in the world with the use of R-12. In the United States it is illegal to import/export/produce R-12. R-12 in the United States is priced about 10 times higher than anwhereelse in the world. Actually Australia is still a major user of R-12, far more thna the United States. Asia, The middle East, Africa and South America comsume 1000's of times more R-12 than the United States does.

Dear Friend,
You are saying a lot in your reply, can you substanciate this with figures. ??????
Those countries who have rectified the Montreal Protocol do not deal in CFCs anymore those who are 3rd World Countries are reducing CFC dramatically BY now. See China eg !!!!

jg/oz

jg/oz
16-02-2004, 03:57 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rccarps2
[B]I know that R-12 is illegal throughout Europe, actually a day doesnt go buy where I dont have someone call/email me requested R-12.
The only R-12 left in the United States is what is left in circulation, which is dwindling each day. The reason the United States did not outlaw the use of the gas completely is the cost. Can you imagine the cost to the economy if everyone had to immediatley convert systems to Alternatives and R-134a. It would be astronomical. Instead the change can be slow and less abusive to the economy.

Friend,
If you go to Indonesia you will still find R12 cheaper than R134a
but that is not the point CFC like R12 olute the world
a: with an awfule lot of Ozone depletion stuff
and even moer in the Global warming area which Mr Bush does
not want to know about because it's too expensive for the USA to come down as the largest polluter worldwide with 28% of the worlds pollution with only 5 % of the world inhabitants.

So pollute a bit more and keep selling CFCs

jg/oz

baker
16-02-2004, 04:19 AM
Everything is relative. I believe that high concentrations of R134a would be more hazardous that similar quantities of R12, and this is what the tests have shown. However, similar quantities of cigarette smoke are probably more dangerous.

Unfortunately our society likes things black and white, and has trouble with grey. Petrol (gasoline) is safe (white) while PCBs are deadly (black). In reality, a mouthful of PCBs is a lot less dangerous that a mouthful of petrol.

In a previous life I worked for a Telco who got caught building a PCB storage site for all the old PCB based components that were being removed from telephone exchanges. The residents of the suburb went crazy. Although this site was only a temporary store, and was a new design with all the safeguards, the residents of this suburb staged meetings and marches and brought so much pressure to bear on the government owned telco that the site (already completed) had to be scrapped and the PCBs left in less secure places. I even took a phone call from one alarmed and irate resident wanting to know why we were dumping nuclear waste in their suburb! PCBs aren't dangerous - they are just less safe than they were originally thought to be.

The real kicker is that the suburb, Bullsbrook, also has a major air force base. I can only guess at some of the nasties housed there, let alone all the trainee pilots regularly flying over their houses, and all they can worry about is a store for PCBs.

In a more mature world, we would still be using R12 and R502, and minimising the release into the atmosphere. In our black and white world, we have to ban it.

You don't have to worry about getting the occassional whiff of R134a. On the other hand, I would treat PAG with a lot of respect.

Brian_UK
16-02-2004, 11:04 PM
I understand the different answers given here but our friend from the US still can't seem to see the stupidity in his argument.

If the US is so responsible (and he is a US citizen) about R12 then why is it still available for general sale ? Making it more expensive DOES NOT remove it from the market place.

Unfortunately, I believe, the dear old US of A likes its dollars more than anything else.

My final comment is :- this is a discussion forum and not a For Sale column so please rccarps2 , restrict your posts accordingly.

rccarps2
16-02-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Brian_UK
I understand the different answers given here but our friend from the US still can't seem to see the stupidity in his argument.

If the US is so responsible (and he is a US citizen) about R12 then why is it still available for general sale ? Making it more expensive DOES NOT remove it from the market place.

Unfortunately, I believe, the dear old US of A likes its dollars more than anything else.

My final comment is :- this is a discussion forum and not a For Sale column so please rccarps2 , restrict your posts accordingly.

Stupidty of my arguement??? It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that if you inflate prices to the point where it is cheaper to retrofit a existing a/c system from R-12 to another refrigerant that the person will obviously do so.
The United States is more heavily dependent on A/C than any other country in the world. We could not feasible just bad R-12 overnight and expect the economy not to get killed.
Obivously no one on this board has any understanding on the United States market. There is basically no demand for R-12 anymore within the 50 states. Seriosuly how many old a/c systems in european cars are leaking into the atmosphere???
I made the orginal post over a YEAR ago and nothing came of it, and the whole point of advertising the sale of R-12 was for international use only. I only sell full containers to various customers worldwide. You guys are pathetic to bashme for my orignal post that occured over a year ago. I didnt know then there were rules concerning that type of post, but seriously get over it. I visit this forum fairly often and if I was that concerned about trying to sell gas I would have posted just a few more times than ONCE in a YEAR.
If you are all so concerned about the sale of R-12 why dont you take a trip to Egypt or Israel or UAE or China or India. They purchase/produce so much R-12 today its ridiculous.
It's funny how this almost seems like a chance for the world to take shots at the American on the board.

rccarps2
16-02-2004, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by jg/oz
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rccarps2
[B]I know that R-12 is illegal throughout Europe, actually a day doesnt go buy where I dont have someone call/email me requested R-12.
The only R-12 left in the United States is what is left in circulation, which is dwindling each day. The reason the United States did not outlaw the use of the gas completely is the cost. Can you imagine the cost to the economy if everyone had to immediatley convert systems to Alternatives and R-134a. It would be astronomical. Instead the change can be slow and less abusive to the economy.

Friend,
If you go to Indonesia you will still find R12 cheaper than R134a
but that is not the point CFC like R12 olute the world
a: with an awfule lot of Ozone depletion stuff
and even moer in the Global warming area which Mr Bush does
not want to know about because it's too expensive for the USA to come down as the largest polluter worldwide with 28% of the worlds pollution with only 5 % of the world inhabitants.

So pollute a bit more and keep selling CFCs

jg/oz


jg/oz


Do you still use R22 or 142b or 141b or any HCFC's????? Well obviously you shouldnt because they are scheduled to be completley phased-out by 2030 at the absolute latest. Maybe someone can answer me if Europe has the same timeline or if they even have plan similar to the United States.... because I honestly dont know.
Seriosuly all of you who complain about the Montreal Protocol and The United States involvement I have something for you to read....

"[EPA press release - April 5, 1988]
President Reagan today signed the Montreal Protocol on CFCs for protection of the ozone layer. EPA Administrator Lee M. Thomas is issuing the following statement with respect to the treaty ratification:

"We have made enormous progress toward understanding the ozone-depletion problem, and taking steps to solve it. The key to a solution is global cooperation. The Montreal Protocol represents a monumental global environmental achievement. But the job is not finished. Our immediate challenge is to encourage every signatory nation to promptly ratify the protocol so it can enter into force in January 1989. In the next weeks, I will contact my counterpart in each nation that has signed the agreement, to promote prompt action on ratification.

"Once the Protocol takes effect, our next challenge is to determine what further actions are warranted to respond to the recent disturbing scientific evidence. We must build on the momentum achieved last year in Montreal and utilize the Protocol's provisions to take whatever additional steps are necessary to safeguard the earth's protective shield."

Brian_UK
16-02-2004, 11:41 PM
Oh dear, I'm sorry, I've hit a nerve.

DaBit
17-02-2004, 12:44 AM
As long as you guys don't switch to environmentally neutral refrigerants, I don't care whether R12 or R134a is used since I fail to believe that HFC's are indeed so much better than CFC's. ODP might have been reduced, but I fail to believe that ozone breakdown is/was caused mainly by the AC/R industry. GWP is still very high with HFC's, so not much improvement there.

You guys recover everything? Then you guys are different from the people I see working on A/C equipment over here.

We still have ammonia. We still have hydrocarbons. We still have CO2. And we still have refrigerant R718. All with their disadvantages and advantages.

Ammonia has proven itself for decades. New car-A/C's with CO2 as the working fluid in a transcritical cycle perform wonderful if I have to believe some technical articles in technical car magazines, so I suppose that with some R&D effort it could be used in regular A/C too. Hydrocarbons are a safe and efficient alternative to HFC/CFC/HCFC refrigerants in small home appliances, as the German manufacturers has proven already with their switch to R600a. And so on.

If the environment is really important to you, use them. But don't be so hard on the CFC users; HFC's aren't so much better imho.

jg/oz
17-02-2004, 06:04 AM
Friends,
we should continue this conversation on the Refrigerant site.
I will try to answer there.
jg/oz

Bones
23-06-2004, 12:39 PM
hey DaBit, what do you guys use water as refrigerant for?

rccarps2, champ - have you ever seen the picture of the world taken at night time? theres only one country lit up like a christmas tree lol.

we cant buy r12 here anymore, not for years - and our phaseout for r22 is 2010 not 2030 - we must reclaim old gas and account for every gram of refrigerant both recovered and installed into new/old systems after repairs etc. if we cannot do this apon audit onspot fine - if the auditer picks up our r22 bottle for instance and says how much gas is left? we shouldnt have to weigh it to know.

already good quality a/c systems are going towards so called greener alternatives here such as 407c (daikins) and 410a the latter which seems to work great. my only problem is where does all this end? will the newer refrigerants of today be banned in 20-30 years for making birds fly north for winter or be found to be the cause of kangaroos growing 3 legs?

but serious champ, dont go giving yourself the nod of approval because of your justifications - and really you had better move out of your glass house before you start throwing stones. the actions of minoritys sadly get projected to appear to be the way of the masses today, especially with the US media... its about time as a country you forgot about the dollars and got some more cents.

rccarps2
24-06-2004, 03:22 PM
hey DaBit, what do you guys use water as refrigerant for?

rccarps2, champ - have you ever seen the picture of the world taken at night time? theres only one country lit up like a christmas tree lol.

we cant buy r12 here anymore, not for years - and our phaseout for r22 is 2010 not 2030 - we must reclaim old gas and account for every gram of refrigerant both recovered and installed into new/old systems after repairs etc. if we cannot do this apon audit onspot fine - if the auditer picks up our r22 bottle for instance and says how much gas is left? we shouldnt have to weigh it to know.

already good quality a/c systems are going towards so called greener alternatives here such as 407c (daikins) and 410a the latter which seems to work great. my only problem is where does all this end? will the newer refrigerants of today be banned in 20-30 years for making birds fly north for winter or be found to be the cause of kangaroos growing 3 legs?

but serious champ, dont go giving yourself the nod of approval because of your justifications - and really you had better move out of your glass house before you start throwing stones. the actions of minoritys sadly get projected to appear to be the way of the masses today, especially with the US media... its about time as a country you forgot about the dollars and got some more cents.


Here we go again, maybe you should do a little research before you go making assumptions.
Take a look at this link and try to re-think your statement. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights2_dmsp_big.jpg So you can take your "lol" and throw it out the window....

In the United States R-22 production/importation will cease in 2020. No new equipment that uses R-22 will be produced past 2010. The change over to the Alternatives of R-22 (407C/410A) has been almost non-existent beyond large commercial systems. Due to patent laws in the United States Dupont and Honeywell are able to artificially hold the prices of the Alternatives above the international markets average price. Since R-22 is roughly 25% of the cost of 404a pound for pound in the United States, R-22 will continue to be the dominant Refrigerant.
Even when 2010 and then 2020 arrives there still will be an enormous production of R-22 worldwide. Right now China and India produce almost all of the R-22 for the world markets. Considering those contries still produce R-12 in high volumes I doubt that R-22 will be any different once it is banned in United States and Europe.
I am not saying that the US market wont embrace 407 and 410, but until 2009 when the patents run out for Dupont and Honeywell and importation of the alternatives is allowed, the cost basis favors R-22.
I totally support the development of new "Enviornmentally Friendly" Refrigerants, but they carry very large price tags compared to the standards of the Industry, and in an economy you will not be able to justify a enormous price increase due to small enviornmental gains.
You will most likely see a shift towards R-134a once R-22 is phased out. That will reduce high conversion costs of systems due to pressure increases of the Alternatives.
As far as throwing rocks in my glass house? You need to realize that an economy is based upon costs, supplies, and demand. I dont really care how much everyone says we need to switch to cleaner refrigerants. Unless the change to a better refrigerant is cost effective, no rightful economy in the world will support a change to something new with costs ranging from 10, 20, 30, 40 times more than the original system. With the exception being changes in the Laws governing that specific country.
My justifications all provide me more enough reason to sleep well at night......

chemi-cool
24-06-2004, 04:57 PM
Hi Guys,

rccarps2 is not wrong. There is a big demand for R-12 in the third world, it is manufacture in China all the time and being used widely. Its one of the best refrigerant man kind has invented and I don't think that anyone can come up with anything like it.

Within the next 10 to 15 years the biggest economy power in the world will be China and a lot of things that we take for granted, will change dramatically.

I sleep good at night like Peter and rccarps2, but one day I will wake up and all the roads signs, will have a Chinese translation.

They suck all the material from the rest of the world and the quality is rapidly improving.

Those who want to survive, will have to cooperate with them or disappear from the economic map.

I have met with a delegation from China just a month ago, they came here to learn about desert irrigation and fish growing in the desert.
They have refused to discuss anything about China and refused to answer any question.

So personally, I don't thing R-12 will ever disappear from our planet, on the contrary, I expect it to make a comeback.

Time will tell if I was wrong.

Chemi :)

baker
28-06-2004, 02:29 AM
R12 is a great refrigerant, but I don't see a way for it to be compatible with a capitalist world. If used frugally and recovered properly, it would present little threat to the ozone layer. However, in our world, it is too easy for people to profit at the expense of the ozone layer. I cannot see a way that it can be used responsibly - there are too many people who would sacrifice the long term future for short term gains.