PDA

View Full Version : Hitachi F-32 F-61 Vrf Faults



Daikin=Overated
10-11-2007, 11:52 AM
Hello people:) This is a bit of a rant but..................

I've recently started works on 2 Hitachi VRF 3 pipe systems, to 8 (per system) RPC floor/ceiling model indoor (RPC2.0FSGE & RPC2.0FSGEi).

Unfortunately I can't obtain access at the moment to roof in order to carry out further investigation up top, but fortunately to date, all faults have been internal.

The system is switched through a Hitachi 7 day programmed time clock and having tested this all seems fine there.

We are encountering problems with error F-32/F61 which according to the manual are comms errors between indoor and outdoor units.

We've been through every indoor unit and splitter box. Our findings so far being that one indoor unit had no 2nd blinking green comms led on indoor. We then investigated it's splitter box finding a blown 1amp inline fuse.

Another indoor unit previously marked as being down, strangely sprung back to life after we dropped the indoor pcb and inspected this. Putting it back together seemed to allow fan coil to come back on line???? Anybody ever encountered loose wiring, or connection issues on these?????

With everything sorted, we booted system back up. To our delight all appeared well.

Client has since phoned back to say the whole system had gone down again.:eek: Go back in to find the controller had lost all comms to every indoor unit and or splitter box??? The entire 8 systems had gone F32?

On this occasion I was Initially thinking down the line of outdoor pcb. There was no way all indoor boards could have gone. This would have needed to be confirmed, as theres no access at the moment which is a drag.

However something else crossed my mind, and I wondered if anyone else had encountered a similar scenario. All these errors seemed to have come about after the fire alarm people had carried out maintenance. I have identified the fire alarm interface, all seems healthy, but as the faults keep happening in the day I can't be sure as to whether the alarm relay is coming in, and if so would it cause an F-32/F-61?

Or my final theory is power supply, spikes or insufficient power. It's a big office, the other floors have similar systems, maybe theres insufficient power to supply all systems under full load, and it's dropping out?? The blown fuse on the splitter box suggests surge too.

It's a big system, with shoddy access, restriction to outdoor ccu, I'm feeling a little downhearted so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thx guys.

Daikin=Overated
10-11-2007, 04:18 PM
Ha, Ha, Ha.

I appreciate the irony.............wouldn't have touched it if it was a daikin, especially in light of the switching on procedure when rebooting there vrf systems:D

Could be worse I guess lol.

Daikin=Overated
10-11-2007, 08:02 PM
Where is that planet btw is it in UK ?:rolleyes:

Yeah.

This isn't an opportunity to troll all over the thread guys. Let's move on and let those interested in offering genuine advice do so.

Ta.

al
11-11-2007, 01:13 AM
Hi

Have you got the units set to auto restart on power off?if the fire alarm is knocking off non essential mains power i presume this would include the fan coils.....
is the alarm zoned and only shutting down certain zones?? If you're worried about peak electrical load can you fit a monitor to the outdoor?
Al

Daikin=Overated
11-11-2007, 08:34 PM
Hi

Have you got the units set to auto restart on power off?if the fire alarm is knocking off non essential mains power i presume this would include the fan coils.....
is the alarm zoned and only shutting down certain zones?? If you're worried about peak electrical load can you fit a monitor to the outdoor?
Al

Cheers Al,
Finally a genuine response!
I will check and confirm as In all honesty I don't know at the mo. Are we talking about dip switch settings here, and if so indoor/outdoor,splitter box, or possibly even fixed controller parameter???

I think typically fire alarm interfaces tend to be wired through the controllers, or a shutdown relay wired prior to the mains breakers. Therefore if this was activating it would take out the radial circuit supplying all fan coils, although I'll have to confirm how they've wired it all, this week.

I was thinking about monitoring power interuptions, I used to use them on hydraulic installs 10 years ago on my last job. Could you recommend such a product suitable for install within condensors, as this contraption I used to use was a beast lol??

Thx again.:)

superswill
12-11-2007, 12:25 AM
Hello people:) This is a bit of a rant but..................

I've recently started works on 2 Hitachi VRF 3 pipe systems, to 8 (per system) RPC floor/ceiling model indoor (RPC2.0FSGE & RPC2.0FSGEi).

Unfortunately I can't obtain access at the moment to roof in order to carry out further investigation up top, but fortunately to date, all faults have been internal.

The system is switched through a Hitachi 7 day programmed time clock and having tested this all seems fine there.

We are encountering problems with error F-32/F61 which according to the manual are comms errors between indoor and outdoor units.

We've been through every indoor unit and splitter box. Our findings so far being that one indoor unit had no 2nd blinking green comms led on indoor. We then investigated it's splitter box finding a blown 1amp inline fuse.

Another indoor unit previously marked as being down, strangely sprung back to life after we dropped the indoor pcb and inspected this. Putting it back together seemed to allow fan coil to come back on line???? Anybody ever encountered loose wiring, or connection issues on these?????

With everything sorted, we booted system back up. To our delight all appeared well.

Client has since phoned back to say the whole system had gone down again.:eek: Go back in to find the controller had lost all comms to every indoor unit and or splitter box??? The entire 8 systems had gone F32?

On this occasion I was Initially thinking down the line of outdoor pcb. There was no way all indoor boards could have gone. This would have needed to be confirmed, as theres no access at the moment which is a drag.

However something else crossed my mind, and I wondered if anyone else had encountered a similar scenario. All these errors seemed to have come about after the fire alarm people had carried out maintenance. I have identified the fire alarm interface, all seems healthy, but as the faults keep happening in the day I can't be sure as to whether the alarm relay is coming in, and if so would it cause an F-32/F-61?

Or my final theory is power supply, spikes or insufficient power. It's a big office, the other floors have similar systems, maybe theres insufficient power to supply all systems under full load, and it's dropping out?? The blown fuse on the splitter box suggests surge too.

It's a big system, with shoddy access, restriction to outdoor ccu, I'm feeling a little downhearted so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thx guys.

is it a hitachi set free FX system? what gas is it on?

Daikin=Overated
12-11-2007, 11:22 AM
I will confirm the outdoor model details at some stage this week regarding set free model. From memory I think it's a Utopia scroll FSG1 !

I believe it's R407c.Isn't the set free range the latest series from Hitachi??

Cheers,
Jon.

superswill
13-11-2007, 12:11 AM
I will confirm the outdoor model details at some stage this week regarding set free model. From memory I think it's a Utopia scroll FSG1 !

I believe it's R407c.Isn't the set free range the latest series from Hitachi??

Cheers,
Jon.


set free have been around for years,i think its there name for there VRV systems,but i will stand to be corrected

al
13-11-2007, 12:19 AM
Jon

Have you the service manual? http://www.hitachiaircon.com/technical/manuals.jsp

Alec

Thermatech
13-11-2007, 02:17 PM
Most Hitachi kit comes set for 220v
They can play up with communication errors if not reset for 240v.
The outdoor unit has a dip switch to set & a plug for the control transformer which needs to be changed over to the 240v plug.
The CH boxes have a plug which needs to be changed to the 240v plug.
Most indoor units also have a 220v & 240v plug which needs to be changed over.
As many sites in the uk can have in excess 250v then the 220v + or - 10% = exceeded supply voltage limit.

Some engineers dont realise they have to reset for uk voltage settings.

I had one like this in the summer & the fault was found to be poor control wiring connection between indoor unit & CH box. this indoor unit showed 03 alarm & others in the system showed 32 alarm.

When you get access to the outdoor unit you can use the check mode & outdoor display to show what units the outdoor unit can communicate with so if any are missing you will know which units to check.

Daikin=Overated
13-11-2007, 10:07 PM
Ok chaps,

Heres a little update.

This morning I was called back back to my favourite site as they've no heating again :(.
Found central station had fan coils 1-8 telling the system there was a comms issue (blasted F-32 again).

I spoke to Hitachi yesterday. Apparantly the F-32 is the fault code generated by one or more indoor units within the system. These other indoor units recognise that theres a fan coil down with another fault and so prompt the F-32?!?!?! Makes sense? Not to me neither...... what's the point.

I'm aware theres a fault on fan coil 3 for example. It's the genuine F-61 and is at the route of all of this, this only affects one fan coil, down to a faulty indoor pcb it appeared the other evening, why must all the others go off line when they identify this same fault on a
F-32?

I'm able to take fan coil 3 out from the central station, once it starts prompting F-61 which allows the system to settle down operating the remainding units.

The problem is this at the moment. Because it's controlled through a 7 day timer, the central station boots all fan coils up at the start of each day. When defective indoor unit 3 is brought online, it instantly prompts
F-61, unless somebody manually removes it from the controller quick time,as described above, all other indoor units will recognise that theres a fault on the system and go F-32 eventually rendering the system completely down.

I tried removing the fan coil out of the circuit by, switching off indoor+splitter box fuse spur, and shutting down the outdoor unit, then booting back up. Didn't work, made it a little more stable, but it still recognises the fan coil from it's memeory somehow, and reverts back in to fault mode. Obviously the long term solution is to remedy the faulty indoor fan coil no.3, which I'm working on, but it's going to take some time to sort, and I just wanted to offer the client a temporary solution without all this aggro.:confused:

I'm serioulsy considering changing my username !!

Cheers.

Daikin=Overated
13-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Jon

Have you the service manual? http://www.hitachiaircon.com/technical/manuals.jsp

Alec

Hello mate,
I Did find the manuals today on site, as the security guard had them previously locked up.

Didn't tell me much I didn't know to be honest, apart from how to interrogate the central station once a fault code is flashing, however it didn't work. I also got the list of fault codes that stopped at f-52-no good when the faults a 61.

:eek:

Daikin=Overated
13-11-2007, 10:36 PM
Most Hitachi kit comes set for 220v
They can play up with communication errors if not reset for 240v.
The outdoor unit has a dip switch to set & a plug for the control transformer which needs to be changed over to the 240v plug.
The CH boxes have a plug which needs to be changed to the 240v plug.
Most indoor units also have a 220v & 240v plug which needs to be changed over.
As many sites in the uk can have in excess 250v then the 220v + or - 10% = exceeded supply voltage limit.

Some engineers dont realise they have to reset for uk voltage settings.

I had one like this in the summer & the fault was found to be poor control wiring connection between indoor unit & CH box. this indoor unit showed 03 alarm & others in the system showed 32 alarm.

When you get access to the outdoor unit you can use the check mode & outdoor display to show what units the outdoor unit can communicate with so if any are missing you will know which units to check.

Thermatech!

Thanks mate, that makes very interesting reading. reason being, when I was going through the Indoor Pcb the other evening, I noticed just that. The Pcb transformer has got a spare 240v flying connector. All the indoor units are running on the 220v supply side of the transformer. I would imagine that everything else you've mentioned is currently set in the 220v setting so I will have to go through the entire lot again if this is not happening.

Thing is, I can only assume that the site has been running connected up like this since commissioning, I wonder why this could start causing issues now, if that's the case???

Thanks for your input too.

Daikin=Overated
13-11-2007, 10:45 PM
Hi

Have you got the units set to auto restart on power off?if the fire alarm is knocking off non essential mains power i presume this would include the fan coils.....
is the alarm zoned and only shutting down certain zones?? If you're worried about peak electrical load can you fit a monitor to the outdoor?
Al

Hi there,

I forgot to mention in my recent update that I inspected thoroughly the fire alarm shutdown relay, and this was found to be ok. Hitachi recommend it's wired up to the outdoor condensing unit, through the foced stoppage connections, however many tend to wire a contactor off the fire alarm interface as is the case on this install.
The system resets perfectly after interuption too. It is indeed a zoned alarm, and it's tested every Monday...not causing anyone else any bother (two other floors running identical kit).

Thanks Mate.

Daikin=Overated
13-11-2007, 10:49 PM
set free have been around for years,i think its there name for there VRV systems,but i will stand to be corrected

Hello Superwill,

You don't stand corrected, my mistake, finally got to inspect CCU today, and it is indeed a set free model-since 1984 lol !!

The model is FX RAS-20FXG1.

I should also correct my estimation of it's age at this point.......according to building manager it's only 2-3 yrs old.

Cheers for your input mate.

hector 1
13-11-2007, 10:56 PM
Hello There,

A 32 fault code would indicate a break in transmission such as the changeover boxes being switched off.
Hitachi have had a problem with some indoor pcb's going to sleep. This usually leads to a 32 fault and the units just stop working. You need to get the number off the indoor board and speak to Hitachi as they have had a faulty batch. These boards will require changing. I think the 61 fault is a simillar comms fault but relates to the sytem controller, in this case the Hitachi central station.
Hope this helps.

al
13-11-2007, 11:45 PM
Jon

To remove the faulty indoor temporarily, you need to reconfigure the outdoor to read one unit less ,i think it's a dipswitch setting?
Al

Daikin=Overated
14-11-2007, 01:44 PM
Hello There,

A 32 fault code would indicate a break in transmission such as the changeover boxes being switched off.
Hitachi have had a problem with some indoor pcb's going to sleep. This usually leads to a 32 fault and the units just stop working. You need to get the number off the indoor board and speak to Hitachi as they have had a faulty batch. These boards will require changing. I think the 61 fault is a simillar comms fault but relates to the sytem controller, in this case the Hitachi central station.
Hope this helps.

Hector 1,

Thanks for this suggestion!

I'm now a little panic struck if this is the case though. Under the given circumstances I would say it's almost like the indoor units are going to sleep. This would also tie in with my initial theory regarding the fire alarm interface being at fault and axing power to my indoor units!

Can you remember how recent this PCB recall was announced by Hitachi, and would it tally with my kit having been installed around 3-4 yrs ago??

Also from your encounter, was this a recent breakdown, and did the faults appear straight away, or did your F-32 issues happen later down the line??

Thanks,
Jon.

Daikin=Overated
14-11-2007, 02:13 PM
Just to let you all know, I'm due back in there tonight.

This is where I'm at.

1) I have now confirmed CCU, model type, and age of system.

2) Fire alarm interface & ancillery devices not at fault and ruled out.

3) Thermatechs suggestion regarding system settings for european 220v setting to be investigated this evening.

4) Hitachi have confirmed that there was indeed a rogue batch of indoor unit PCB's causing F-32 fault alarms when going to sleep on the job (nice of them to ignore this the first 4 conversations I had with them). I now have to get the model numbers etc, and relay this back to Hitachi who shall confirm whether they'll need to replace 16 indoor pcb's....................nice!

Clients going to love that.

5) I shall switch indoor PCB's over on defective fan coil 3 (F-61) with another like for like from the second VRF system and see if this rectifies the fault. If so, I should be able to walk away from this system 1 serving the rear office at long last, and start work on the other VRF doing exactly the same at the reception (taking in to concideration point 4).

The joys of A/C !

A big thank you up to this point to everyone who has helped me this far!

Jon

stuartwking
14-11-2007, 10:46 PM
Hi D.O, I Have also herd about the faulty indoor pcbs with these units, Hitachi hate to talk about it,Prevous jobs i have had with 32 codes(comms error),Yellow leds not blinking intermitently at least once every 10secs. your problem unit or units would either have lost power or be showing a 03 code,,And i have seen units with loose crimps from terminal strip to board and bad connections onto pcb (cn9 connection). Dont suppose you have a CSNet on the system?,I find the Hitachi service guys prity clued up. Happy hunting

Jase
15-11-2007, 01:38 AM
Never heard of a 61 fault code on these systems. That's a new one on me!
It could possibly be that the controller is showing b1. The b actually looks like a 6. If so then power down and push reset @ r/c's.
Are there any r/c's showing a fault 03?
There are obviously lots of different causes as to why fault code 32 arises but the one most likely is power supply interruption to any indoor unit or any ch box.
Have you checked all units and ch boxes are receiving 220-240 Vac. Favourite would always be fuse in ch box. Also check transformers secondary side.
Any condensate pumps fitted and if so are the failsafe contacts wired into the control side of the Hitachi system?

Regards
Jase

superswill
15-11-2007, 01:48 AM
Just to let you all know, I'm due back in there tonight.

This is where I'm at.

1) I have now confirmed CCU, model type, and age of system.

2) Fire alarm interface & ancillery devices not at fault and ruled out.

3) Thermatechs suggestion regarding system settings for european 220v setting to be investigated this evening.

4) Hitachi have confirmed that there was indeed a rogue batch of indoor unit PCB's causing F-32 fault alarms when going to sleep on the job (nice of them to ignore this the first 4 conversations I had with them). I now have to get the model numbers etc, and relay this back to Hitachi who shall confirm whether they'll need to replace 16 indoor pcb's....................nice!

Clients going to love that.

5) I shall switch indoor PCB's over on defective fan coil 3 (F-61) with another like for like from the second VRF system and see if this rectifies the fault. If so, I should be able to walk away from this system 1 serving the rear office at long last, and start work on the other VRF doing exactly the same at the reception (taking in to concideration point 4).

The joys of A/C !

A big thank you up to this point to everyone who has helped me this far!

Jon

PM sent with my number,had this before or something like it

Daikin=Overated
15-11-2007, 02:34 PM
Good afternoon people!

Things went pretty well last night I'm pleased to report.

I had no faults on either controller (as I'd previously shown client how to remove fan coils with F-61 from controller) This seems to have prevented the other correctly operating fain coils from seeing this faulty unit and allowing the F-32 faults to show.

I can also confirm that the entire system is running on the 220v side of the transformer. I changed the leads over on the fan coils I was working on, but would need to quote client to go through every fan coil, splitter box, CCU to make such adjustments as it's going to be time consuming. I've no evidence that this is causing me any headaches at the moment either, so I'll leave that one there I think. As stated it has been ticking over for a good few years now, surely this would have started causing problems in the past?

Actually we managed to narrow the faults down to one fan coil per system leaving 7 of 8 fan coils online on each of the two VRF systems.....which was great news!

What I discovered last night was that theres three LED's on the indoor fan coil PCB. The green is constantly illuminated, the orange blinks periodically when communicating with the system, and the red is a fault LED to my understanding. What was happening was that on the two systems faulting on F61, this orange comms light was pulsing consistantly and fast, like it was trying to tell me something? It was definately not right, and certainly wasn't communicating. I tried everything to no avail. In the end I removed one of the two incoming comms wires from the CH box to the fan coil, switched power back on and watched the orange LED. This time it had gone out, obviously because it was seeing comms was down. I then reconnected just the single blue wire back in place. The orange light did it's frantic blinking thing for a second then pulled through and reverted back to it's usual state of regular blinking and thus comms was back!

Thought I'd cracked it untill we were due to leave. It had gone down again to F-61. This time I wasn't so downhearted because I'd already switched indoor PCB's over to see if it was that- which it wasn't, and so now (and I'm going to confirm with Hitachi if this makes sense by the way)Im suspecting the splitter box PCB......fingers crossed!

If Hitachi can confirm this, then problem solved, I'll go back fit the parts and that's it.

One little tip that some of you chaps may already know, is that It's paramount when attempting to remove a defective fan coil from the central station if interconnected to Hitachi's 7 day timer, that the independant fan coil your dealing with has it's timer function disabled. This essentially inhibits the blasted timer bringing it back in again the next morning. Doh!
If you forget this it would appear that within the space of an hour the whole system will be down due to the F-32 logic. Great huh!

Can't thank you all enough for your contributions. I'll do a final update on this in a little while.

All the best.